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Yeah, the game isn't challenging enough just totally stops being true in hero mode. Even for those who just don't think more damage isn't more challenging it really demands new playstyle vs. the classic "Link face tanks everything".
Bust Rodd fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Dec 28, 2013 |
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Dec 28, 2013 15:52
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Ixjuvin posted:Point A to point B, go to a place you haven't been to yet, use the right item to pass through a gate, collect a thing, repeat.
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Dec 28, 2013 15:54
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Bust Rodd posted:Yeah, the game isn't challenging enough just totally stops being true in hero mode. Even for those who just don't think more damage isn't more challenging it really demands new playstyle vs. the classic "Link face tanks everything". Not really. I beat Hero Mode and only died like 3-4 times, and even then only in the beginning. If you go straight for the blue tunic, it's not much different than a regular playthrough. You have to be more careful to avoid getting hit, but that's not difficult at all if you've already beaten the game. Mind you, I don't think it's a big problem that this game isn't very challenging.
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Dec 28, 2013 16:26
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I dont know how, but I somehow managed to crash my ALBW flying in to Turtle Rock.
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Dec 28, 2013 16:33
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Ixjuvin posted:LBW trip report from someone who has never played a Zelda game: I did not enjoy it very much. It was well-executed and also notably the first game I managed to play with the 3D on all the way through without wanting to die. Ultimately everything in the game is just traversal. Point A to point B, go to a place you haven't been to yet, use the right item to pass through a gate, collect a thing, repeat. It's like the action-puzzler equivalent of waist-high cover or something. I guess I'm disappointed because I expected some challenge hidden away somewhere, like Pokemon's metagame or infuriating Mario platforming. Did you just go directly to every marker on your map until you beat the game and never did anything else or something
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Dec 28, 2013 17:51
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Endorph posted:'Point A to Point B, do x, do y, repeat' describes just about every video game ever made in the history of mankind. And book, and movie, and fairytale, etc. Yes, people can move places, and they can do things. There's really no other abilities we have.
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Dec 28, 2013 18:44
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Am I crazy or was collecting monster guts/horns/tails the most needless thing ever? I think I had the witch make one (non red) potion for me throughout the whole game and I just ran around with 99 of everything for the last half of the game. Getting one of those in a treasure chest was always really disappointing. Maybe they are less useless on hero mode I dunno.
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Dec 28, 2013 22:41
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NESguerilla posted:Am I crazy or was collecting monster guts/horns/tails the most needless thing ever? I think I had the witch make one (non red) potion for me throughout the whole game and I just ran around with 99 of everything for the last half of the game. Getting one of those in a treasure chest was always really disappointing. I used a lot of potions because they had 2 that weren't just restoring health but I still ended the game with 99 of everything
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Dec 28, 2013 22:50
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I used some blue potions for the hero mode tower and maybe one for the final boss. Otherwise I also maxed out on the ingredients.
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Dec 28, 2013 23:14
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On the subject of potion ingredients, Skyward Sword's hero mode really did make me use more potions than I have in pretty much every other Zelda game ever. Hero mode made that game much more of a challenge than it was before. The boss rush in particular was intense. Plus, I liked how some characters would give you grief if you asked for a tutorial because you already played through the game once. 
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Dec 28, 2013 23:42
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Chieves posted:On the subject of potion ingredients, Skyward Sword's hero mode really did make me use more potions than I have in pretty much every other Zelda game ever. Hero mode made that game much more of a challenge than it was before. The boss rush in particular was intense. I liked how characters would force you to listen to their tutorial, and then follow up with "But I guess you already know that, huh?" And by "liked" I mean "hated." They're practically saying "Hey, check out all this poo poo you don't want to read! You should be able to skip all this, shouldn't you? We agree, but gently caress you, you can't."
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Dec 28, 2013 23:57
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They could have jacked the purchase price of items way up to help combat the '9999 of everything' state at the end of the game. Rentals could still be cheap as chips, but if you want to own an item, make it 2,500 rupees or something stupidly expensive. It would also feel incredibly satisfying to then purchase the item and get the upgraded 'Nice' item.
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Dec 29, 2013 00:11
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alf_pogs posted:They could have jacked the purchase price of items way up to help combat the '9999 of everything' state at the end of the game. Rentals could still be cheap as chips, but if you want to own an item, make it 2,500 rupees or something stupidly expensive. It would also feel incredibly satisfying to then purchase the item and get the upgraded 'Nice' item. The pricing is fine. Making it so people don't get the fun gadgets until late in the game unless they grind the poo poo out of minigames wouldn't be fun for anyone.
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Dec 29, 2013 00:13
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alf_pogs posted:They could have jacked the purchase price of items way up to help combat the '9999 of everything' state at the end of the game. Rentals could still be cheap as chips, but if you want to own an item, make it 2,500 rupees or something stupidly expensive. It would also feel incredibly satisfying to then purchase the item and get the upgraded 'Nice' item. The problem with this is that it only encourages Rupee farming, which is tedious and boring. Item acquisition would be better off using an alternate currency hidden around the world like the Pieces of Heart are.
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Dec 29, 2013 00:14
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Ojetor posted:The problem with this is that it only encourages Rupee farming, which is tedious and boring. Item acquisition would be better off using an alternate currency hidden around the world like the Pieces of Heart are. That's not a bad idea; maybe they could have incorporated elements of the monster guts, horn and tail into it as well, because I still ended with about a million of them too.
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Dec 29, 2013 00:17
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Ojetor posted:The problem with this is that it only encourages Rupee farming, which is tedious and boring. Item acquisition would be better off using an alternate currency hidden around the world like the Pieces of Heart are. But it already is. Getting the Nice items involves finding collectable items hidden around the world in various places.
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Dec 29, 2013 00:18
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The problem with Maiamais is that they're more of a collect-a-thon than an actual puzzle. Very few Maiamais are actually hidden away in interesting spots, most of them are just hanging around in random walls and trees.
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Dec 29, 2013 00:23
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There are all those mini-dungeons scattered around the overworld with 100-rupee prizes in them. It'd be trivial to replace the money with shop tokens or something. Of course, that would take away the game's biggest money sink, so the series-wide problem of "nothing to spend rupees on" would get even worse.
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Dec 29, 2013 00:34
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Come to think of it is there any real use for the item stores outside Kakariko? As far as I know you can't lose your shield, like-likes drain rupees now instead, and the other items they sell aren't exactly rare.
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Dec 29, 2013 00:41
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I liked that you could sell ingerdients at the potiom shop of you wantwd. In hero mode I was able to buy the item for every dungeon with the money from that last dungeon and a few times when I was 50-100 short I would sell ingredients. I do think the weapon buying prices were too low. Going in from what I read I thought you would only be able to get a few items by the end. It would make purchases more significant. Theres some weird balance though. Like sandrod is only needed for the dungeon and a few hidden guys. Bombs and hammer are required to explore anywhere. Hookshot for the mountain. So its onlt smart to buy the hammer and bombs over others. I like the idea but it could be refined.
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Dec 29, 2013 00:47
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My idea would be to put items in minidungeons around the world, sort of like those Treasure Hunter rooms but without an item requirement. Just one real solid single room puzzle. You'd traipse around the world, stumbling upon items here and there, with each find opening up the world just a little bit more. My single biggest issue with ALBW was the pacing: I'm so used to having content that I can actually do at a given time sprinkled here and there around the world that being able to just snag all the items an hour in and comb the area clean of goodies so I would never have to backtrack made the world feel a lot smaller than any other Zelda. It neutered a lot of the sense of exploration for me. My favorite moment playing was when I just opened up Ravio's shop. I snagged bombs, the bow, and the hookshot, and I climbed Death Mountain and followed the signs to the ore mine on the northeast corner of the map. Of course, I kept thinking that the mine was some sort of end point and was confused about where the hell it was, but I climbed up and down that tower like two or three times with half a heart trying to find it. poo poo like that is what I've loved about Zelda since I was little, emergent stories that may be entirely irrelevant to the game as a whole but make the world feel so much bigger and more mysterious.
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Dec 29, 2013 00:49
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I really don't understand why you would want a Zelda game where it is difficult or grind-tastic to get every item. That is just saying "I want less people to have fun!" I can't imagine why I'd want to play a Zelda game where I'm expected to miss out on most of the upgraded items unless I grind for rupees.
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Dec 29, 2013 00:53
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ImpAtom posted:I really don't understand why you would want a Zelda game where it is difficult or grind-tastic to get every item. That is just saying "I want less people to have fun!" I can't imagine why I'd want to play a Zelda game where I'm expected to miss out on most of the upgraded items unless I grind for rupees. I don't see the point of a rental system were I didn't rent anything after the first 3 dungeons for the rest of the game. I don't think grindings the answer but beimg able to by 6-7 out of 10 items might be good. As it was, my second play through was just making a trip to Rovios after every dungeon for another item. Which was just tedious.
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Dec 29, 2013 01:03
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Bombadilillo posted:I don't see the point of a rental system were I didn't rent anything after the first 3 dungeons for the rest of the game. I don't think grindings the answer but beimg able to by 6-7 out of 10 items might be good. Why would it be good? What would it do? The entire thing everyone praised about the game is that it let you go out and do things without being constrained. Constraining players or removing their ability to get everything does absolutely nothing but make the game less fun for people because they can't get every item without grinding. Like again, I'm confused here. Why would you want fewer items? What does that do for you? Zelda has never been a game about making The Hard Choices not even in the earliest NES days and if you really wanted to make difficult choices "hey, you can't get every item without grinding minigames" is like the worst possible way to do that. Even Majora's Mask, which was all about time-management, was designed in a way that you could (and were expected to) get everything before the game was over with minimal effort. Things like "hide them in the dungeon' make more sense to me but... I don't know, I like the freedom of being able to pick which items I get or upgrade instead of hoping that the dungeon I enter has the upgrade or item I want. (Or on a replay, just doing everything in the exact right order to get things in the order I want.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Dec 29, 2013 |
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Dec 29, 2013 01:06
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Zelda 1 had a heart container or potion choice. Also. Were talking in the context of still being able to rent the items in this type of system. You aren't missing anything. It makes purchases meaningful vs renting. In a game where you literally have to grind to get upgrades. The game has way too many ruppees around and the barrier to owning items is far too low. If you don't think the game would be fun if you don't get the upgraded sandrod and hookshot handed to you by the end. Well. We have a difference of opinion I guess. Bombadilillo fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Dec 29, 2013 |
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Dec 29, 2013 02:16
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Bombadilillo posted:Zelda 1 had a heart container or potion choice. You're still missing out on the upgraded items. You can solve puzzles but there are a lot of cool things in Zelda which have nothing to do with puzzle solving. Telling people they have to grind to get stuff for no reason other than because it was 'too easy' to get seems like it's encouraging boring tedious grinding for no reason. Why does there need to be a barrier to owning items in a game where the specific design idea is "hey, you get all the items from the start, have fun!" Why do you want to grind? Basically I think the rental system could be improved but not by making it less accessible and less open and less free for the player to just do things. There are games where making decisions between two significant choices is a cool and meaningful part of the game, but they are designed around the idea of those choices as opposed to "just stick in some extra grinding." ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Dec 29, 2013 |
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Dec 29, 2013 02:38
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ImpAtom posted:Why would it be good? What would it do? The entire thing everyone praised about the game is that it let you go out and do things without being constrained. Constraining players or removing their ability to get everything does absolutely nothing but make the game less fun for people because they can't get every item without grinding. Edit: Oops I misread your post a bit. I didn't grind and by the time Ravio let me rent all the items I had more than enough money to rent all of them. By the time he let me buy them I could afford to buy most of them. All I did was explore and open every chest. The game showers you in money.
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Dec 29, 2013 02:47
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ImpAtom posted:You're still missing out on the upgraded items. You can solve puzzles but there are a lot of cool things in Zelda which have nothing to do with puzzle solving. Telling people they have to grind to get stuff for no reason other than because it was 'too easy' to get seems like it's encouraging boring tedious grinding for no reason. Why does there need to be a barrier to owning items in a game where the specific design idea is "hey, you get all the items from the start, have fun!" Why do you want to grind? You keep saying grinding. I don't know what you are talking about. And I don't know what game you played but you explicitly don't get every item from the start and there are not fun backtracking punishments after every death. Where's your free spirit give me godmode and all items cause that's fun fit in with LBW again? Not owning all the weapons by endgame does not mean you can't rent everything and have everything accessable to any more then it already is in LBW. Or less "open". Or less "free" Or any other vague terms you spout out. Bombadilillo fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Dec 29, 2013 |
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Dec 29, 2013 02:47
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BattleMaster posted:I didn't grind and by the time Ravio let me rent all the items I had more than enough money to rent all of them. By the time he let me buy them I could afford to buy most of them. Yes, that is the point I made. The argument here is "everything should cost more." Bombadilillo posted:And I don't know what game you played but you explicitly don't get every item from the start and there are not fun backtracking punishments after every death. Where's your free spirit give me godmode and all items cause that's fun fit in with LBW again? ... because you're complaining that you have so many rupees that it is absolutely effortless to get all the items. Aside from the Sand Rod it is trivial to get every item early on entirely because of this. Bombadilillo posted:Not owning all the weapons by endgame does not mean you can't rent everything and have everything accessable to any more then it already is in LBW. Or less "open". Or less "free" Or any other vague terms you spout out. Yes it does because the Nice Weapons are also part of the game. You can say anything you want about them 'not counting' but it would be rightly called bullshit in any other Zelda game if they went "You can get the Magic Cape or the Ice Rod but not both" even if they are completely optional items not needed to solve any puzzle. It's entirely possible to do a game where you have to decide between rewards or prizes or upgrades but they're designed entirely around that and it's a big part of the overall mechanics. Designing a Zelda game that way would involve redesigning it from the ground up, not just adding a extra 0 to each Rupee cost. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Dec 29, 2013 |
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Dec 29, 2013 02:47
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ImpAtom posted:Yes, that is the point I made. The argument here is "everything should cost more." Yeah I misread what you said. I thought you were the one person in the world who didn't have way too much money in this game Edit: I wouldn't change a drat thing though. I felt like having to rent the items was just a formality and the designers really did want you to have access to every item all at once after the first major dungeon. I loved how the game just gave you almost all of the tools and set you loose from the start. BattleMaster fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Dec 29, 2013 |
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Dec 29, 2013 02:48
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To me the easiest way to make the renting system be more than a two step process of getting your item would be to lose all rental items whenever you fall and use a fairy, and not just whenever you die. That's what I was expecting to happen anyway. Besides that I liked that there was no real bullshit about it. Just having every single item in the game after the first couple dungeons and doing whatever was the strongest part of it.
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Dec 29, 2013 06:05
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RBA Starblade posted:To me the easiest way to make the renting system be more than a two step process of getting your item would be to lose all rental items whenever you fall and use a fairy, and not just whenever you die. That's what I was expecting to happen anyway. Besides that I liked that there was no real bullshit about it. Just having every single item in the game after the first couple dungeons and doing whatever was the strongest part of it. You really couldn't do that though because you'd be reviving in the middle of a dungeon without the item you need to move around that dungeon.
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Dec 29, 2013 06:09
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ImpAtom posted:You really couldn't do that though because you'd be reviving in the middle of a dungeon without the item you need to move around that dungeon. Oh yeah, guess you're right. I hadn't thought of that. 
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Dec 29, 2013 06:09
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It was nice that after a couple decades of Zelda games, we finally got to have all the Zelda staple gadgets fairly early in the game. It got really lame the 4th or 5th time you had to beat dungeons just to unlock those same items. It reminds me of how Arkham City had you start the game with all the gadgets that you spent all of Arkham Asylum unlocking.
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Dec 29, 2013 06:11
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You know, I really wonder if you could remove fairy-in-a-bottle from Zelda. They really are kind of a weird item as far as these things are concerned because of how powerful they are. They frankly offer so many benefits that you kind of have to strain to justify using your bottles for other stuff, even if that other stuff is like "temporary invincibility." They're such an iconic part of the franchise but like... it feels like it would make more sense if they were more limited or less accessible or something. It's really hard for an extra life (let alone 5 extra lives) to not overshadow a lot of other options.
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Dec 29, 2013 06:16
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I generally loved LBW's main item concept, but the one thing that drags down the non-linear nature of the game is that it gets easier as you progress since all the dungeons are equally difficult but you have more and more heart containers as you go on. I would have really liked it if the game automatically scaled the dungeons up in difficulty throughout the game.
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Dec 29, 2013 06:16
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RyokoTK posted:I generally loved LBW's main item concept, but the one thing that drags down the non-linear nature of the game is that it gets easier as you progress since all the dungeons are equally difficult but you have more and more heart containers as you go on. I would have really liked it if the game automatically scaled the dungeons up in difficulty throughout the game. I think the problem there is that scaling difficulty is such a mixed bag. Part of the reason to level up is so you get stronger. If you get extra heart pieces but the game scales up so that an enemy who does 1 HP damage when you have 3 hearts does 2 when you have 6, it makes the heart containers themselves feel weak and useless. On the other hand if you just pump it up based on, say, number of dungeons completed, you're kind of encouraging people to game the system and save combat-light dungeons for later because it isn't like puzzles would scale in difficulty. Inverse difficulty is unfortunately just an issue a lot of games have if they have any kind of leveling or 'power up' mechanic because you're stuck between making the power ups feel weak, feel overpowered, or feel absolutely necessary and thus not 'optional.' It's probably better to let the player feel powerful as a reward for all their hard word as opposed to making them feel it wasn't worthwhile. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 06:24 on Dec 29, 2013 |
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Dec 29, 2013 06:21
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ImpAtom posted:I think the problem there is that scaling difficulty is such a mixed bag. Part of the reason to level up is so you get stronger. If you get extra heart pieces but the game scales up so that an enemy who does 1 HP damage when you have 3 hearts does 2 when you have 6, it makes the heart containers themselves feel weak and useless. On the other hand if you just pump it up based on, say, number of dungeons completed, you're kind of encouraging people to game the system and save combat-light dungeons for later because it isn't like puzzles would scale in difficulty. True, but you can generally lean on something as simple as having more enemies. Two Wizzrobes might be dangerous when you have eight hearts, but when you have sixteen hearts and blue mail, you're just not going to care about the combat anymore. Unless I had to fight, say, six Wizzrobes -- then I'd still have to pay attention, because while I can swat down a single enemy without batting an eyelash, if I had to fight a small army of baddies from time to time, I'd feel like I was putting all of that defense and gear to work. To me, that seems like getting the best of both worlds: the stakes are raised in a tangible way (more baddies) but you can also quantify yourself getting stronger because each individual enemy goes down more easily. You're right that scaling difficulty is a really touchy subject, and most games go about it very poorly, but I think simply not doing it is just as bad. I'm not used to being able to snooze through Turtle Rock, man.
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Dec 29, 2013 06:34
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How do you feel about the original LoZ's merchant system? I thought that was the best executed it's been in the whole series. Most of the items are things that are nice to have, barring two exceptions (the arrows and meat, and even then I think you can just pick up the silver arrows in the last dungeon), and the prices seem to fit a lot better.
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Dec 29, 2013 06:35
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Don't you need to buy the candle, too? But yeah, LoZ put a good value to the money by having it also be ammo. Also it was tough to come by if you didn't know exactly where to find the money caves.
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Dec 29, 2013 06:39
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