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Yeah. Sadly it looks like we're never going to get any of that. I don't know what Kevin's real objection too. I think he and Swag got off on the wrong foot and he's just outright refusing anything originating from him or something, really. I can't see why someone wouldn't want crafting to be aware of constructions and have lab benches and stuff. It'd be really nice to have, say, lab benches you can use in labs and schools to do the more complex things, like cook meth.
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Dec 31, 2013 06:42
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That'd do a lot to add a sense of progression to the game, if you wanted to. Where you need to find a particular workstation in order to progress to the next crafting 'tier' of sorts. So finding a garage or machine shop lets you make basic tools, which let you make better things anywhere (and good things at the workshop) and the things you can make there, will help you clear a lab or military base, which lets you make even better stuff, and so on. It'd really help with the crafting problem at the moment where you can sharpen sticks for an eternity until you gain the knowledge required to make hanzo steel from used car parts.
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Dec 31, 2013 06:46
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The stopgap measure in place at the moment seems to be sticking every high-tier recipe in books, so you have to explore libraries and schools and such. Personally I think it bottlenecks the game too much, and there should be more places to learn recipes, but nobody seems to be working on any alternative methods. And some items, like the still and forge, really should have been constructed items right from the start, and only weren't because it wasn't easy to modify those. Now that it is, there's practically no reason not to do so.
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Dec 31, 2013 07:01
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RIP, cool crafting/base building change.
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Dec 31, 2013 07:16
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Maybe we should resurrect GDA for this.
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Dec 31, 2013 07:23
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I'd like to see something like Swag's system act sort of like this: 1) Basic poo poo like cooked meat can be done anywhere with the tools they already need 2) Slightly more complex stuff (like digging sticks, or arrows) need the tools they need now + a table to do them on. If the system allows it, make a lot of things "table"-able. Have a few recipes for portable tables, lightweight "camping table"s in sporting good stores, stuff like that. A nomad can either just break a window and use a house's tables or just carry around one themselves. 3) Moderately-complex things like heatplates or chemistry sets need basic workbenches - same as tables. Have several in sewers, garages, some houses. Let the player make diffrent workbenches themselves that are portable trap-like things. Different levels of things need diffrent levels of workbenches to make. If the system can be done, make workbenches also make simpler recipes take less time. 4) Complex stuff, like homemade CBMs or not-lightsabers need Industrial Technology. They should be really, really hard to make but show up semi-regularly in factories. They should need processed metals and glass, which need furnaces and a high fabrication skill. They should be kinda-easy to find, but unmovable, in big, zombie infested factories, perhaps with robotic defenders. To not make the system too anti-nomad, make sure everything spawns natrually in the world. Vehicles should just require the object (like a table) themselves to be placed in, and use up power for lights. ps. You should totally be able to make robot companion NPCs.
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Dec 31, 2013 07:25
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Has anyone ever played Xenocide? That roguelike had a system where you could get a robot chassis and plug various bits into it to keep it going. Simple, but could fit in with Cataclysm.
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Dec 31, 2013 07:27
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I would totally dig being able to make an upgradeable robot buddy ala Xenocide.
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Dec 31, 2013 07:29
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Anticheese posted:RIP, cool crafting/base building change. Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 07:35 on Dec 31, 2013 |
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Dec 31, 2013 07:32
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Anticheese posted:Has anyone ever played Xenocide? That roguelike had a system where you could get a robot chassis and plug various bits into it to keep it going. Simple, but could fit in with Cataclysm. I did, and that would be an amazing system to port into Cataclysm. Both for making robots to do things for you, and for making a lot of neat enemies to fight in areas. I'd like to see more robots. We've got the cop bots, and the lab bots. There should be robots at military installations too. Different types of robots might provide different parts, so you could take a follow module and some parts to make a pack mule that follows you around. Labs could be a source of robots that would be useful for retrieving things and otherwise assisting, maybe even crafting modules? Also, I just kind of like the idea of blowing open a bunker and instead of turrets having a few treaded robots with lasers come out after you, ala the robots from short circuit or something.
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Dec 31, 2013 07:44
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A robotic charcoal burner would be a godsend.
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Dec 31, 2013 07:51
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:I did, and that would be an amazing system to port into Cataclysm. Both for making robots to do things for you, and for making a lot of neat enemies to fight in areas. I'd like to see more robots. We've got the cop bots, and the lab bots. There should be robots at military installations too. Different types of robots might provide different parts, so you could take a follow module and some parts to make a pack mule that follows you around. Labs could be a source of robots that would be useful for retrieving things and otherwise assisting, maybe even crafting modules? Blowing up the robots from Short Circuit, making a basket out of their scrap and reprogramming one of them to carry your crap is an amazing mental image.
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Dec 31, 2013 08:12
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^^^ Pretty much what I was thinking, and it'd be amazing. Also the whole 'para-dropping 50 megaton nukes on Moscow' mentality from that movie fits right in with the way society in cataclysm is portrayed. edit: To be fair, GlyphGryph's work on npc's might at least make this sort of thing possible. OwlFancier posted:A robotic charcoal burner would be a godsend. Another purpose of constructions is to move charcoal making to actually digging a pit and filling with logs. That'd take a bit more though. My number two most wanted feature is for someone to open up the rotting code and let us put timers on things. Put a timer on a liquid to represent fermentation. Put a timer on a construction to make charcoal! Dig pit, place logs, fill pit, and then the construction turns 'rots' into a 'finished charcoal pit' that you dig the charcoal out of. Put a bunch of beer brewed with the fermentation timer in your own still and check on it later to retrieve the goods. Or set up a fire and still construction for water or acid even. It'd open up a lot of possibilities. Killer-of-Lawyers fucked around with this message at 08:38 on Dec 31, 2013 |
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Dec 31, 2013 08:33
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Gah, even the longbow is book-locked now. I guess I'll try to kill zombies with a slingshot? (Is there a mod out there that changes a lot of the recipes back to autolearn?)
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Dec 31, 2013 13:26
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Yeah, the book-locking of 90% of the archery tech tree was my breaking point. People figured this stuff out by themselves in medieval times! There's no reason for an accomplished archer not to be able to figure this stuff out by himself. But now ranged weapons are practically crippling to get into, and then people start wondering why everyone plays melee, and then they start crippling the melee mechanics in response. And I doubt you'll be able to convince anyone to even think about unbooking a single recipe. This particular initiative appears to come right from the top.
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Dec 31, 2013 14:24
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kevingranade posted:This is very much a community project, but the final decision is mine, not vote or consensus or what have you. It's my decision because I'm doing a huge amount of work, anyone who feels like stepping up and taking on that workload is free to make a fork. Last month when I had said that I was quickly becoming disenfranchised with the development of Cataclysm, and that it had mostly everything to do with the attitudes of certain developers*. Well, I think Kevin Granade has just said everything you'll ever need to know about developing for it. * I still think maintaining curses as the priority IO lib is a terrible idea and hurts the project, but as I said before, I believe it maintains its place because of the personalities in control of the project.
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Dec 31, 2013 16:59
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So what's to stop people from starting their own branch and not letting this guy contribute?
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Dec 31, 2013 17:30
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Infinite Monkeys posted:So what's to stop people from starting their own branch and not letting this guy contribute? Momentum. He's a big cheese and most people don't want to rock the boat. I mean, we've had forks before, but the primary motivation came from here, and you know how goon projects are. Although I have to say, it doesn't look like anyone is siding with Kevin on this. He's either got a massive bone to pick over this, or he really has a actual case of  .
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Dec 31, 2013 18:20
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Isn't he DarkFurWolf or some poo poo, who added a fursuit to the game?
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Dec 31, 2013 18:31
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No, that was another guy, and to be honest, the fur suit was an amazing addition. It lead to a full on breakdown of a 20 year old man who thinks he's addicted to benadryl over it, and it was amazing. I mean, sure, it's a fur suit, but even I can appreciate the long troll. I just wish it still gave people gibbis. As it stands though, it sends a lot of the most annoying members of the comuniity over there into actual fits and cries of conspiracy over it, which I don't want to ever change.
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Dec 31, 2013 18:45
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Before they implemented sleeping on blankets/piles of clothes keeping you warm, those fursuits were loving godsends...
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Dec 31, 2013 19:14
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:Momentum. He's a big cheese and most people don't want to rock the boat. I mean, we've had forks before, but the primary motivation came from here, and you know how goon projects are. Although I have to say, it doesn't look like anyone is siding with Kevin on this. He's either got a massive bone to pick over this, or he really has a actual case of I guarantee it's the latter. This game was pretty fun but I guess I've been watching it bloat and go down the tubes at the same time. Anyone who wants to add extra items to the JSONs get their PRs merged but so few people are actually coding and those that do run into problems just like Swag has.
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Dec 31, 2013 19:27
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:So which is it? If you're wondering, this is exactly why people here direct harshness at him. He's running the show it seems, even after people say he isn't. This sucks, it's a good PR and the people on Git and here all have voiced their support for it. Why is he being allowed to railroad his dumb illogical ideas about magic crafting or other bullshit? Because the other devs need to be willing to ignore him and just do it. I'm actually seeing this as a great learning experience, and am trying to convince someone to just merge the damned thing already and show a bit of backbone. I'd do it myself, but I am in no shape for a technical review (which it does still need, I think) - if it hasn't be dealt with by next week, I'll consider setting aside some time from development to merge it. But Kevin is still the technical lead, and he's got a lot of pull because in many ways the project would be screwed without him - he shoulders a lot of the work that goes into it, he gets a lot of poo poo done, and people know it. That much is true. But he cannot stop a merge except by expending political capital - the same as any other developer. On the unrelated issue I still think the fursuit is great. Seeing the butthurt over it is truly hilarious sometimes. quote:Yeah, the book-locking of 90% of the archery tech tree was my breaking point. People figured this stuff out by themselves in medieval times! There's no reason for an accomplished archer not to be able to figure this stuff out by himself. But now ranged weapons are practically crippling to get into, and then people start wondering why everyone plays melee, and then they start crippling the melee mechanics in response. Although... Is anyone here actually planning on forking again? Might be interesting to see what happens.
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Dec 31, 2013 22:44
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GlyphGryph posted:The intent is to replace it with more alternative ways to discover recipes - right now you can get recipes through books and disassembling, and we'd like to have additional ways to do it as well. Straight up unbooking is probably unlikely, but introducing an alternative way to get the recipe that doesn't require books is probably quite likely to get in if its halfway decent (from my understanding of the whole situation) I grok this, but I think they've gone waaay too far with the booking. It takes away from the self-sufficiency aspect of crafting - instead of being able to set myself a goal (gather the skill and materials to make X) I have to rely on luck. Stumble across a bow or stumble across a book with bow instructions - it's luck, not something I can work towards.
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Dec 31, 2013 23:05
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I'll be honest, I'm starting to get a kick out of sitting back and watching this whole mess unfold  GlyphGryph reopened the pull request earlier today, and kevingranade just closed it again. I know atomicdryad has been more vocal against Kevin than others, so I want to see what she'll have to say to him.
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Dec 31, 2013 23:13
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GlyphGryph posted:Because the other devs need to be willing to ignore him and just do it. I'm actually seeing this as a great learning experience, and am trying to convince someone to just merge the damned thing already and show a bit of backbone. As the project lead, shouldn't you show some backbone and tell Kevin to stand the gently caress down?
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Dec 31, 2013 23:15
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A Miserable Robot posted:As the project lead, shouldn't you show some backbone and tell Kevin to stand the gently caress down? I could, yes. But I'm not going to be involved with the project forever, and never intended to be, and with my upcoming retirement from the role of project lead come February (going to be focusing exclusively on fulfilling Kickstarter rewards after that point, and then transition to a new project I've had waiting long enough that needs me to get off the ground), my primary goal right now is to help the project get through the transitionary period and end up with a dev team that feels like the project is not only theirs, but they've earned it, and have the courage to make unpopular decisions, even over a member of the dev team, if it's for the good of the project. Also, I did re-open the ticket and tell him to stand the gently caress down! But that's really the most I'm going to do. The Lone Badger posted:I grok this, but I think they've gone waaay too far with the booking. It takes away from the self-sufficiency aspect of crafting - instead of being able to set myself a goal (gather the skill and materials to make X) I have to rely on luck. Stumble across a bow or stumble across a book with bow instructions - it's luck, not something I can work towards.
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Dec 31, 2013 23:22
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A Miserable Robot posted:As the project lead, shouldn't you show some backbone and tell Kevin to stand the gently caress down? He literally just said that the pull needs a technical review, and if someone else doesn't do it in the next week, GlyphGryph will go ahead and do it himself. It's like the thing you said, but it allows a valuable team member the chance to save face and not tell everyone to blow him, with the off chance that he'll realize he can't control the entire game. You're arguing against no one.
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Dec 31, 2013 23:24
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Thanks for clearing things up, Glyph. Now we just have to see how this sorts out.
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Jan 1, 2014 00:58
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senae posted:He literally just said that the pull needs a technical review, and if someone else doesn't do it in the next week, GlyphGryph will go ahead and do it himself. It's like the thing you said, but it allows a valuable team member the chance to save face and not tell everyone to blow him, with the off chance that he'll realize he can't control the entire game. I wasn't arguing at all, it just sounded as though he was waiting for another dev to stand up to Kevin instead of doing it himself. It doesn't sound great when a project leader goes "well somebody should stand up to him". GlyphGryph posted:I could, yes. But I'm not going to be involved with the project forever, and never intended to be, and with my upcoming retirement from the role of project lead come February (going to be focusing exclusively on fulfilling Kickstarter rewards after that point, and then transition to a new project I've had waiting long enough that needs me to get off the ground), my primary goal right now is to help the project get through the transitionary period and end up with a dev team that feels like the project is not only theirs, but they've earned it, and have the courage to make unpopular decisions, even over a member of the dev team, if it's for the good of the project. See, this I'm okay with. Edit: Yeah, I just read what you wrote on the pull request. Didn't mean to come across as a huge dick. A Miserable Robot fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Jan 1, 2014 |
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Jan 1, 2014 03:56
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Kevin Granade on Github posted:I thought my previous posts were sufficiently clear, but I guess not. It is in fact "my show". I have final say on what goes in, it's just that the vast majority of the time* I don't need to make a call because we reach a consensus readily. Welp, let's just fork it then, I'm really pissed off that one guy thinks he can just tank a whole project.
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Jan 3, 2014 20:18
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The booking seems to have been much improved. A lot of recipes can be learned from a book at skill X, but will be autolearned at a higher level if you missed it.
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Jan 3, 2014 20:22
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Character creation really needs to be changed, since points spent on stats are so much more valuable than points spent anywhere else. Maybe separating the point pools into Stats/Perks and Background/Skills or something.
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Jan 3, 2014 21:13
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Doug Lombardi posted:Character creation really needs to be changed, since points spent on stats are so much more valuable than points spent anywhere else. Maybe separating the point pools into Stats/Perks and Background/Skills or something. And the points you spend on stats are only really important because stats are static values that rarely ever change except with mutations. Maybe add some minimal and slow stats gain based on your actual actions with a relatively under-average cap? You could start with a 5 strength but after a few season of constant physical activity you can reach the cap at 8. Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Jan 3, 2014 |
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Jan 3, 2014 21:28
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Turtlicious posted:Welp, let's just fork it then, I'm really pissed off that one guy thinks he can just tank a whole project. I take back anything positive I said about the dude, I'm 100% confident he's a jackass now.
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Jan 3, 2014 21:49
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Turtlicious posted:Welp, let's just fork it then, I'm really pissed off that one guy thinks he can just tank a whole project. That entire Github discussion and associated debate elsewhere is pretty much a case of  now. (Because of his immovable stance)Unless someone takes the time to fork it for this one change, which means someone will have to maintain it actively, Kevin will either: 1. Explode 2. Ignore it (and then possibly others explode) What's it going to be. I still think it's kind of funny this whole situation unfolded, we all agree it's just Granades personal vendetta now? I don't see which other defence he could use.
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Jan 3, 2014 21:53
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I don't think this newest rant or turn of events has truly surprised anyone. The only real change is that Granada has finally hoisted his true colors and made it clear that he is willing to sink with his ship. What awaits to be seen is whether or not anyone plans to take him up on his offer, and fire the first volley.
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Jan 3, 2014 22:57
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https://github.com/Turtlicious/Cataclysm-DDA Alright, I decided to just Fork it. Now what?
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Jan 3, 2014 23:24
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Other than adding King of Swag's changes? Maybe work on getting electricity mechanics in, or those changes to how character setup works that Toplowtech mentioned as a neat alternative to the current setup situation.
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Jan 3, 2014 23:48
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Huh I'm actually unfamiliar with Github from this end, I'm assuming there is a way to pull code from the main repo into my fork? Or would I just create my own new pull requests while copying the code from #4094. Maybe I should have let someone who knows more about this stuff be in charge of this. Meh, I can always give them "merger" rights or whatever.
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Jan 4, 2014 00:26
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