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Vince has ~20 years on Cole.
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Jan 13, 2014 10:57
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:Cole has got to be well within the running for longest-serving play-by-play guy in WWE history, which is incredible considering how awful he is. And considering they still had JR and just didn't use him because "reasons." I wonder how Goldberg would have done in WWE. I mean, I love him in UFC so I'm glad he didn't jump but I wonder.
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Jan 13, 2014 11:44
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Tensai is surprisingly pretty great on commentary.
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Jan 13, 2014 13:14
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AlmightyPants posted:2. Likewise, the guys who pop up an hour or two into the show who seem to have been hiding under the ring up until then. Do they seriously hide them under there before the audience arrives? Or is there some sort of stage magic poo poo going on where they bring them down when no one's looking? I can't imagine it's all that great to be cramped up under a ring for 3 or 4 hours with dudes landing above you all the time. AlmightyPants posted:What about big, hard to disguise guys like the Wyatts who are large and bearded? I can't imagine them subtly sneaking under the ring. I don't know anything about venue construction - are trap doors common or what? I can easily imagine a relatively normal looking guy sneaking in with the crew, but giant beardmen seem to make that impossible. When I went to see Raw in Manchester they had the Wyatts appear at the end (where they came out to attack Bryan / Punk and ended up facing off with the Shield). We were next to the ramp and before the main event there was a video playing on the big screen so they dimmed the lights, about 15 guys (who all had beards) walked past us all of them with their hoods up but because we were next to the rail I could see Rowan and Harper. The group fo 15 all went and stood at the side of the ring messing with something then came back 3 people shorter.
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Jan 13, 2014 13:49
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I'm going to go out and say that in a vacuum, Cole isn't that bad as a commentator. I mean yeah there's a lot of awful with Cole. But at the same time there have been matches where he has come out and managed to call it great. I still remember in the lead up to WM 23 at No Way Out? He got so into the Cena/Shawn vs Batista/Taker Tag match that he lost his voice and Tazz had to very awkwardly call the remainder of the PPV. I mean yes, whenever he's repeating the promo of another wrestler? poo poo. Whenever he's plugging the app? poo poo. Whenever he and whoever he's commentating with don't focus on putting the guys over or progressing the storyline or any number of things they should be focusing on? poo poo. I was literally cringing at the "Hip Hop Twins" poo poo that JBL wouldn't let up about and- anyway... Yes Cole can be considerably crap, however he has shown on occasion that he's got the chops to be the lead commentator. He needs someone good to bounce off and JBL in his current state and King just aren't it. But he is actually good at anchoring the show with the "Welcome back to Monday Night Raw and right now X is fighting Y because Z." Which is important because the lead commentator has to basically make it so new viewers don't get lost when they come back to commercial break. Also, I don't think having Dunn in one ear and Vince in the other is good for anyones sanity. So in closing, yes Cole sucks, but I think he sucks a lot less than he seems.
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Jan 13, 2014 13:52
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Cole's main issue is that he never focuses on the midcard matches, at all. He doesn't talk about the moves, or why winning this match would be important. "Hey, if the Usos beat Swagger and Cesaro here, that could put them into contention for the tag titles!" He places absolutely no emphasis on what's going on inside the ring unless it relates to the main event scene.
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Jan 13, 2014 14:09
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Writer Cath posted:Cole's main issue is that he never focuses on the midcard matches, at all. He doesn't talk about the moves, or why winning this match would be important. "Hey, if the Usos beat Swagger and Cesaro here, that could put them into contention for the tag titles!" He places absolutely no emphasis on what's going on inside the ring unless it relates to the main event scene. If there's someone to blame for this I don't think it's Michael Cole.
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Jan 13, 2014 14:27
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how many times have we had the commentary discussion? the commentators have guidelines. they are told when to ignore calling a match. they are told when to completely poo poo on a segment. they are told when to do the awful fake laughter. I have no doubt that with a little less restraint and more gut reactions that the commentary would be a lot better than it is. Cole has been at this a long time. he's a good announcer when given the chance. Cole with people telling him what to do in his headset, not quite as much.
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Jan 13, 2014 15:13
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I've warmed more to Cole after he dropped the mega heel gimmick.
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Jan 13, 2014 18:40
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VogeGandire posted:Tensai is surprisingly pretty great on commentary. He's had his ring career, he's been huge in Japan, his gimmick in the past couple years haven't caught on and I don't see him getting another push like this. I wouldn't miss him in the ring, but I would really enjoy an announce table run at this point.
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Jan 13, 2014 18:51
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Writer Cath posted:Cole's main issue is that he never focuses on the midcard matches, at all. He doesn't talk about the moves, or why winning this match would be important. "Hey, if the Usos beat Swagger and Cesaro here, that could put them into contention for the tag titles!" He places absolutely no emphasis on what's going on inside the ring unless it relates to the main event scene. I'd be happier if he just knew more names of moves. They're not all "submission maneuver".
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Jan 13, 2014 18:54
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Red posted:I'd be happier if he just knew more names of moves. They're not all "submission maneuver". It's very possible he knows the names of moves, Vince just doesn't want you to call moves. He wants you to  tell stories I don't know how you call wrestling for as long as Cole does and not know the basic submission moves that WWE guys use, anyway.
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Jan 13, 2014 18:56
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triplexpac posted:It's very possible he knows the names of moves, Vince just doesn't want you to call moves. He wants you to I would get more enjoyment out of watching Raw and SD! with the sound muted, and playing the audio of a ten-year old Raw that has JR and King.
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Jan 13, 2014 19:28
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Going back to the cliche discussion, one that always bugged me, though they haven't done it in years, is the bit where a face lets go of his submission finisher because the ref is yelling at the manager. It makes total sense when he's trying to make the pin, but I could never get the logic when they did it with submissions because as long as you stay there and do your thing, the opponent can't recover. Like for instance, Brutus Beefcake has Honky Tonk Man in a sleeper in the center of the ring. Honky's out like a light and there's no chance of him escaping. Suddenly Jimmy Hart pops up on the apron and flails around, causing the ref to yell at him. Brutus decides to let go for the sake of confronting Hart. Honky recovers and eventually wins or gets counted out or whatever. I always wanted to see the face hold onto that submission and wait it out because he has zero reason to let go. Instead, the heel gets injured from being held in, say, the Sharpshooter for way too long and has a major falling out with his manager over it.
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Jan 13, 2014 19:29
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Cardboard Box posted:how many times have we had the commentary discussion? the commentators have guidelines. they are told when to ignore calling a match. they are told when to completely poo poo on a segment. they are told when to do the awful fake laughter. I have no doubt that with a little less restraint and more gut reactions that the commentary would be a lot better than it is. Cole's "MICK FOLEY HAS ACHIEVED HIS DREAMS! AND THE DREAM OF ANYONE WHO'S EVER BEEN TOLD 'YOU CAN'T DO IT!'" for Foley's first title win might be my favorite call ever. It tells the story of the match and also connects it to the lives of everyone watching it on TV. Cole is capable of loving great calls. Notably, McMahon was busy onscreen when Cole called that match.
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Jan 13, 2014 20:45
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Gavok posted:Going back to the cliche discussion, one that always bugged me, though they haven't done it in years, is the bit where a face lets go of his submission finisher because the ref is yelling at the manager. It makes total sense when he's trying to make the pin, but I could never get the logic when they did it with submissions because as long as you stay there and do your thing, the opponent can't recover. Ring psychology. Faces, in the classical sense, are out there to win a match, not murder the guy. They'll drop a submission hold to get the ref's attention back because they can't win if the ref's not looking.
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Jan 13, 2014 20:48
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Liquid Communism posted:Ring psychology. Faces, in the classical sense, are out there to win a match, not murder the guy. They'll drop a submission hold to get the ref's attention back because they can't win if the ref's not looking. Plus they're just so darn MAD at that manager for interfering that they simply must tell them off! Faces are dummies, heels are the cold, calculating ones.
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Jan 13, 2014 21:00
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Pinstripe Hourglass posted:Cole's "MICK FOLEY HAS ACHIEVED HIS DREAMS! AND THE DREAM OF ANYONE WHO'S EVER BEEN TOLD 'YOU CAN'T DO IT!'" for Foley's first title win might be my favorite call ever. It tells the story of the match and also connects it to the lives of everyone watching it on TV. Cole is capable of loving great calls. He had a great call when Eddy won, too. I suspect Cole is at his best when real emotion comes through. After all, what kind of rear end in a top hat can't root for Eddy Motherfucking Guerrero and Mick Foley?
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Jan 13, 2014 21:02
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You can wear yourself out working a submission, but that's rarely or never conveyed to the audience.
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Jan 13, 2014 21:03
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El Gallinero Gros posted:After all, what kind of rear end in a top hat can't root for Eddy Motherfucking Guerrero and Mick Foley? Tony Schiavone
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Jan 13, 2014 21:07
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triplexpac posted:Plus they're just so darn MAD at that manager for interfering that they simply must tell them off! To put it even more succinctly, evil always wins because good is dumb
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Jan 13, 2014 21:14
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Who was the most over WWE tag team to never hold the tag titles? I'm not including make-shift teams like the MegaPowers here, just regular tag teams. I'd have to say The Rougeaus or Crime Time would take this, but I'm sure there's other teams that could enter this dicusssion.
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Jan 13, 2014 21:15
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The Rockers spring to mind (though you could argue they did win the titles once).
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Jan 13, 2014 21:20
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CopywrightMMXI posted:Who was the most over WWE tag team to never hold the tag titles? I'm not including make-shift teams like the MegaPowers here, just regular tag teams. I'd have to say The Rougeaus or Crime Time would take this, but I'm sure there's other teams that could enter this dicusssion. Bushwackers! I think they were over. Kids liked them.
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Jan 13, 2014 21:21
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cryme tyme
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Jan 13, 2014 21:24
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CopywrightMMXI posted:Who was the most over WWE tag team to never hold the tag titles? I'm not including make-shift teams like the MegaPowers here, just regular tag teams. I'd have to say The Rougeaus or Crime Time would take this, but I'm sure there's other teams that could enter this dicusssion. Maybe Kai En Tai?
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Jan 13, 2014 21:37
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Pinstripe Hourglass posted:Cole's "MICK FOLEY HAS ACHIEVED HIS DREAMS! AND THE DREAM OF ANYONE WHO'S EVER BEEN TOLD 'YOU CAN'T DO IT!'" for Foley's first title win might be my favorite call ever. It tells the story of the match and also connects it to the lives of everyone watching it on TV. Cole is capable of loving great calls. Its a shame that JR was not able to make that call.
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Jan 13, 2014 21:40
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What was the story with the Rockers' title win in '90 that was thrown out a week later due to a rope detaching from the turnbuckle anyway? Seems an odd thing to set up to send a crowd home happy before the delayed Dusty finish.
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Jan 13, 2014 21:47
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Thauros posted:What was the story with the Rockers' title win in '90 that was thrown out a week later due to a rope detaching from the turnbuckle anyway? Seems an odd thing to set up to send a crowd home happy before the delayed Dusty finish. The entire match went badly from the moment the rope snapped and it stunk up the joint such that it would not have been a good idea to run with it. I do not think they televised it, although I may be mistaken. Edit - wikipedia: quote:By current WWE records, The Rockers never officially held the WWF Tag Team Championship[25] but on October 30, 1990 Jannetty and Michaels did actually defeat the reigning champions The Hart Foundation in a two out of three falls match in Fort Wayne, Indiana to seemingly win the title. The WWE (WWF) has never officially recognized The Rockers' champion status. During the match the top rope broke by accident making the match a disjointed affair that would require serious clean up before it could be shown on TV.[26] The Rockers defended the WWF Tag Team title against Power and Glory (Paul Roma and Hercules) on November 3, 1990.[27] Shortly after November 3 it was decided to not air the title change and that the title would revert to the Hart Foundation. In his book Michaels claims that the Hart Foundation had politicked to keep the title.[1] Michaels claim is contradicted by other claims that the WWF had actually fired Jim Neidhart forcing the title change but after the match the two sides came to an agreement and Neidhart was brought back.[3] Whatever the reason the Rockers were never officially credited with a title win but footage from the match was shown prior to Jannetty’s WWF return in 1995.[26] The match can be seen in its entirety on the DVD The Shawn Michaels Story: Heartbreak & Triumph. Because it never aired, the match was not clipped and thus is shown in full with no commentary; the only edit being after the second fall when a ring crew arrived to reattach the broken rope. I don't think the Hart Foundation "politicked" at all for this, and in fact had very little influence in the company at the time. The match was just not TV-worthy. Name Change fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Jan 13, 2014 |
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Jan 13, 2014 21:49
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:The entire match went badly from the moment the rope snapped and it stunk up the joint such that it would not have been a good idea to run with it. I do not think they televised it, although I may be mistaken. Were the Rockers originally booked to win and have a normal title reign? If so, it seems odd to change course based on a lovely ring at a house show, and if not it seems like an odd thing to preplan.
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Jan 13, 2014 21:50
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Thauros posted:Were the Rockers originally booked to win and have a normal title reign? Yeah the Rockers won. They just altered history a little bit since they taped things well in advance at the time.
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Jan 13, 2014 21:52
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If you watch the Hart/HBK Greatest Rivalries DVD (which you should you dumb idiot), Hart sort of slips in something about Neidhart possibly breaking the rope on purpose but him having nothing to do with it. Which is a pretty devious move to ruin a match and keep your spot, if true.
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Jan 13, 2014 21:59
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Did anyone manage to carry Hogan to a good match while he was a heel?
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Jan 13, 2014 22:01
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The Monkey Man posted:Did anyone manage to carry Hogan to a good match while he was a heel? It was WCW, so no
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Jan 13, 2014 22:03
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SAVE_US.CHR
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I forgot about the Rockers. Sometimes they're former tag champs though, depending on WWE's mood at the time.
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Jan 13, 2014 22:05
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Have they ever actually counted it as an official title reign? I thought that the WWE had actually been pretty consistent about that one.
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Jan 13, 2014 22:14
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bobkatt013 posted:Its a shame that JR was not able to make that call. I actually think the call being made by the much younger, number two guy adds to it.
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Jan 13, 2014 22:25
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Diabolik900 posted:Have they ever actually counted it as an official title reign? I thought that the WWE had actually been pretty consistent about that one. It's a weird situation where they acknowledge the phantom title switch. They don't seem to acknowledge the reign though. I'm sure they referred to the Rockers as being former tag champions when Marty had his last run, but I think they might have meant each guy was a former champ.
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Jan 13, 2014 22:26
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The Monkey Man posted:Did anyone manage to carry Hogan to a good match while he was a heel? Plenty in Japan, yes.
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Jan 13, 2014 22:29
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The Monkey Man posted:Did anyone manage to carry Hogan to a good match while he was a heel? Goldberg vs Hogan is really fun to watch, but the booking carries that... so, Kevin Sullivan? Flair vs Hogan in the barbed wire steel cage match is also pretty OK while being a really stupid match but there's also a double turn in there. Other than that, no.
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Jan 13, 2014 22:32
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