|
I found that indeed, he is dependant on his shaky Magic growth for usefulness. Enough of it early on, and his middling speed and luck are enough to carry him on. Not enough and he simply won't kill enough and won't be survivable enough to be worth it.
|
# ? Jan 17, 2014 01:18 |
|
|
# ? Mar 28, 2024 11:18 |
|
Manatee Cannon posted:Well, Erk is the worst Mage/Sage in that game. He might actually be the worst non-Renault magician period, now that I think about it. Nino's way worse than Erk though?
|
# ? Jan 17, 2014 02:50 |
|
I've always felt like Erk and (Hector mode) Eliwood are in the same boat. They're with you for long enough that if they get good early growths they can snowball into good units. I've never really had an Erk who was worse than Pent by the time I got to him if he got decent early levels. They can also totally never hit any of their good growths and strive for mediocrity.
|
# ? Jan 17, 2014 03:06 |
|
Last Celebration posted:Nino's way worse than Erk though? The only issue with Nino is that she starts at level 5 when all of your other units (besides the main lord) have long been promoted. As long as you can find a way to compensate for the gap in experience she will turn into a very solid unit.
|
# ? Jan 17, 2014 05:00 |
|
Hunt11 posted:The only issue with Nino is that she starts at level 5 when all of your other units (besides the main lord) have long been promoted. As long as you can find a way to compensate for the gap in experience she will turn into a very solid unit.
|
# ? Jan 17, 2014 05:02 |
|
Last Celebration posted:Nino's way worse than Erk though? Nino is way, way better than Erk. You might not want to spend the half a chapter necessary to promote her but she's still better. Zore posted:I've always felt like Erk and (Hector mode) Eliwood are in the same boat. They're with you for long enough that if they get good early growths they can snowball into good units. I've never really had an Erk who was worse than Pent by the time I got to him if he got decent early levels. Erk is in no way in the same boat as Eliwood. Nobody would use Eliwood if he wasn't plot essential, Erk doesn't have that in his favor. Unless you grind him up in the prologue he's trash, and even then you might as well just use Lucius instead. Sera, Priscilla, Lucius, even Canas due to how ridiculous some dark magic is just completely trump Erk.
|
# ? Jan 17, 2014 05:03 |
|
Manatee Cannon posted:Nino is way, way better than Erk. You might not want to spend the half a chapter necessary to promote her but she's still better. No see Nino has terrible availability, comes low-leveled and has to be babied hard to be of any use. By this time you've either used Erk, or you're using Pent. Nino, and by extension 80% of Est's are all just worthless.
|
# ? Jan 17, 2014 05:11 |
|
Average Stats at 20/10 for Erk and Nino: Erk: HP: 39 Mag: 17 Skl: 17 Spd: 21 Lck: 11 Def: 10 Res: 18 Nino: HP: 35 Mag: 20 Sk: 22 Spd: 25 Lck: 10 Def: 10 Res: 22 Total: Erk has +4 HP, +1 Lck. Nino has +3 mag, +5 skill, +4 speed, +4 res. Nino is objectively better but a few points in a few stats doesn't make up for the fact that Erk's around for 95% of the game and Nino's around for 5% of it. EDIT: Also, Erk's +2 con advantage negates half of Nino's speed advantage a good chunk of the time.
|
# ? Jan 17, 2014 05:11 |
|
When I got Nino my first thought was "you want me to use a level loving 5 unit here?!?". To me it made no sense that they would hand you such a weak unit so close to the end of the game and expect anyone to actually use it. And it still kind of doesn't. Why waste time raising a weak unit when my army has been working fine up until that point? I spent enough time babying weak units in the early game. VVV My incentive to use Erk was that I'd been using Erk for the whole game and been doing just fine with him. I'm inclined to stick with a unit just because they have been on my team a long time, even if a statistically better unit comes along late in the game. I just don't like ditching people when I spent so much time on them. That's just me though. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 05:29 on Jan 17, 2014 |
# ? Jan 17, 2014 05:18 |
|
Erk is also outclassed by every other mage available for the rest of the game. Nino would take like half of 28x to catch up and become better than him if you cared to do so. I get why you might not want to, but that's not the point. Yeah, he's more available but so are units like Dorcas and Wil. Availability doesn't mean much when there's no incentive to use them during that time anyway.
|
# ? Jan 17, 2014 05:21 |
|
Manatee Cannon posted:Erk is also outclassed by every other mage available for the rest of the game. Nino would take like half of 28x to catch up and become better than him if you cared to do so. I get why you might not want to, but that's not the point. Yeah, he's more available but so are units like Dorcas and Wil. Availability doesn't mean much when there's no incentive to use them during that time anyway. And even Dorcas and Wil see some use in Lyn Mode and the very early going of thee main story. They're there, so there's no reason not to use them. Being there and being autodeployed is more useful than not being there. Even if the unit had 0s in all stats, 1 hp, and 4 move, they'd still be able to trade items back and forth. Endorph fucked around with this message at 05:26 on Jan 17, 2014 |
# ? Jan 17, 2014 05:24 |
|
Manatee Cannon posted:Erk is also outclassed by every other mage available for the rest of the game. Nino would take like half of 28x to catch up and become better than him if you cared to do so. I get why you might not want to, but that's not the point. Yeah, he's more available but so are units like Dorcas and Wil. Availability doesn't mean much when there's no incentive to use them during that time anyway. We've been over this, big green numbers don't mean poo poo because you don't need them. You just need a unit that's "Good Enough" at what it does. And Erk is good enough at what he does and exists for far longer to do his job. Yes, you can sit there and grind Nino up to a 20/20 Goddess on 28x. Or you can not waste your time and continue plowing through the game with the competent army you have now. Simple limitus test to determine a units worth when you get them. Are they immediately useful for something? can they integrate into the army without you having to specifically go out of your way for them to do their job, their job may be rescuing or staff-usage or being a healer or an attacker. The question is "Can you do it " No. Nino can't just integrate into the army, and unlike Zeiss she can't just serve as a rescue-bot who happened to luck out and get 20 attack on Hard Mode. Unlike Kurthnaga she doesn't provide an immediate benefit for being in the group (dark tide) She's just there and sucks until you baby her to not suck. And I can baby anyone to not suck. Most importantly Nino doesn't have Erk's luxury. Erk is auto-deployed on a few chapters, if you want to use Nino? she's taking someone elses spot. In fact she's in direct contention with Pent, a Sage you've had who is good from the get go for the spot of your Anima user. She comes to late and by then you're either using Erk or Pent. You can like Nino, you can say that upon babying her she's strong. But don't mistake that for being a good unit. Under that definition everyone is a good unit. Onmi fucked around with this message at 05:31 on Jan 17, 2014 |
# ? Jan 17, 2014 05:29 |
|
Endorph posted:Erk isn't that bad and Nino doesn't otuclass him that much. And Erk is your only magic user of any sort for a good chunk of the game, which makes him at least somewhat useful since he's one of your few ways of dealing with knights that doesn't involve using up the Rapier or Wolf Beil. No he's not? You get Lucius literally one chapter later in the main game, right after that you get Canas and the chapter after that you can get a Guiding Ring to promote Sera with since she'll probably be at 20 anyway. You even get Priscilla in the same chapter as him, and she'll end up a way better anima user than him. Using Wil and Dorcas only happens outside of the map you recruit them in during Eliwood's campaign. Hector has less deployment slots, and if you're doing hard mode there's even less reason to use any of them. Manatee Cannon fucked around with this message at 05:31 on Jan 17, 2014 |
# ? Jan 17, 2014 05:29 |
|
I think a better way to gauge unit worth isn't to ask how godlike they become, but rather how much they can suck. Erk might be statistically worse than the other mages but it isn't by a wide margin. He won't be the best but he's probably not going to be awful, so using him is fine. Unless a unit has totally abominable growths then I'm willing to use them. So I could just use Erk and get a decent mage or I could go through the annoyance of babying Nino to get a slightly better one I get to use for a handful of missions rather than a huge chunk of the game. I'll stick with Erk since I hate protecting weak units. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Jan 17, 2014 |
# ? Jan 17, 2014 05:35 |
|
Manatee Cannon posted:You get Lucius literally one chapter later in the main game Manatee Cannon posted:the chapter after that you can get a Guiding Ring to promote Sera with since she'll probably be at 20 anyway. There's an argument for promoting her early, that said, but even if you do it's not for her offensive prowess. Manatee Cannon posted:You even get Priscilla in the same chapter as him, and she'll end up a way better anima user than him. Manatee Cannon posted:Using Wil and Dorcas only happens outside of the map you recruit them in during Eliwood's campaign. Hector has less deployment slots, and if you're doing hard mode there's even less reason to use any of them. Hector doesn't get a deployment screen until Chapter 14, so that's 3 chapters of glorious Dorcas action. As for Wil, he has the vast majority of Lyn Mode to his name, for whatever that's worth. Endorph fucked around with this message at 05:43 on Jan 17, 2014 |
# ? Jan 17, 2014 05:37 |
|
I'm not sure how Sera couldn't be level 20 by then. Either way she'll hit it before Erk. And yeah, Priscilla has a horse and can support some of the best characters in the game. Lucius also has better support options, and Canas gets Luna and Nosferatu as a crutch. Wil can have all the chapters in the world, he's still the worst. I hate having to correct myself to spell his stupid name right every time.
|
# ? Jan 17, 2014 05:43 |
|
Internet Kraken posted:I think a better way to gauge unit worth isn't to ask how godlike they become, but rather how much they can suck. Erk might be statistically worse than the other mages but it isn't by a wide margin. He won't be the best but he's probably not going to be awful, so using him is fine. Unless a unit has totally abominable growths then I'm willing to use them. Even a unit with abominable growths can be useful depending on who they are. Niime for instance with a single angelic robe and Nosferatu can tank even the Dracoknights and Dracomasters in Sword of Seals, and beyond that she has amazing staff range. Zealot is a piece of crap growth AND stat wise, but if you want to LTC the game (not saying it's the only way to play, or even the main way to judge, just a style of play) He helps speed up the Western Isles. Juno has terrible stats as we've covered but she's a rescue-bot due to being a flyer. That's why I say "When X appears, do they contribute immediately?" It's the same reason I'm harsh on Amelia and Ewan, because sure, I can take them to the tower and grind them to 10/20/20 so they can do poo poo OR I can just keep playing because I got Duessel and other units.
|
# ? Jan 17, 2014 05:44 |
|
You can use literally anyone in every game, but that makes for a really boring and dismissive argument. You not wanting to grind doesn't mean the option isn't there. Ease of use isn't the only thing that matters.
|
# ? Jan 17, 2014 05:47 |
|
Manatee Cannon posted:You can use literally anyone in every game, but that makes for a really boring and dismissive argument. Okay then, how is Nino good. Explain to me how Nino, coming in as she is, is worth using over Pent or Erk, who've been there much longer have both gained more experience, since we're going to assume for the sake of argument that you're using Erk since this is comparison speak. Don't tell me "She can get good" again, anyone can GET good. How when you get her is she worth the deployment slot over Pent or Erk.
|
# ? Jan 17, 2014 05:51 |
|
Manatee Cannon posted:You not wanting to grind doesn't mean the option isn't there. Ease of use isn't the only thing that matters. If we're willing to invest resources in Nino, then for the sake of comparison, isn't it fair to assume we're willing to invest similar resources in Erk? An Energy Ring and a Speedwing just about catch him up to an equal level Nino, and you can give him those as soon as they're in your inventory rather than waiting 8 or some chapters for her to actually join.
|
# ? Jan 17, 2014 05:51 |
|
Manatee Cannon posted:You can use literally anyone in every game, but that makes for a really boring and dismissive argument. It doesn't matter that much, but it's honestly the best way to argue whether a unit is worthwhile. I like Donnel a character, so I take the time to build him up, but objectively you'd probably be better served reclassing someone who's already good out of the gate into a better class, like Chrom into a cavalier or Miriel into a dark mage. By the same standard, Nino needs to be babied and even that doesn't fix her being weighed down by most tomes, or Pent having a stave rank she'll never get.
|
# ? Jan 17, 2014 05:57 |
|
Manatee Cannon posted:You can use literally anyone in every game, but that makes for a really boring and dismissive argument. While this is true, ease of use/recruitment time definitely should be considered if you're trying to compare characters. Your arguments about Nino also apply to Vika, FE12 Est and the trainees. Are you also going to claim they're superior to, say, Volug, Catria, and Dussel/Lute/Garcia? Zore fucked around with this message at 06:00 on Jan 17, 2014 |
# ? Jan 17, 2014 05:57 |
|
Huge numbers are fun. Sorry, losers.
|
# ? Jan 17, 2014 06:01 |
|
Endorph posted:Okay, grinding is an investment of resources, can we at least agree on that? You're devoting experience other units could have gotten solely to raise Nino. You may or may not be giving her the Afa's Drops and a Body Ring as well, and those also could have gone to other units. I was talking about comparing Ross to Duessel there, technically. I wasn't actually taking item usage into account at all since I tend to just throw them all at whichever Lords aren't doing well. But alright, say you give this all to Erk. With some item usage he'd be on par with Nino at the same level. The Afa's Drops wouldn't have as much time to help out unless you don't use Erk at all, at which point he'd be in the same boat. You're focusing too much on Nino when my point is that Erk is poo poo, not that Nino is the best mage ever or whatever. My point isn't that you can't use him, but that he's the worst mage in the game that isn't Renault. You have no incentive to use him compared to most of the units you have access to throughout the game. Nino's a gimmick but she can easily take the place of one of your A team in the space of half an hour of effort if you so chose. Erk will never be A team material in the first place. Onmi posted:Okay then, how is Nino good. Explain to me how Nino, coming in as she is, is worth using over Pent or Erk, who've been there much longer have both gained more experience, since we're going to assume for the sake of argument that you're using Erk since this is comparison speak. Don't tell me "She can get good" again, anyone can GET good. How when you get her is she worth the deployment slot over Pent or Erk. ... She can get better? And with less effort really since you'd be babying her for one map as opposed to having Erk be sub par for nearly the entire game. I thought I'd made that pretty clear.
|
# ? Jan 17, 2014 06:02 |
|
Manatee Cannon posted:I was talking about comparing Ross to Duessel there, technically. I wasn't actually taking item usage into account at all since I tend to just throw them all at whichever Lords aren't doing well. But alright, say you give this all to Erk. With some item usage he'd be on par with Nino at the same level. The Afa's Drops wouldn't have as much time to help out unless you don't use Erk at all, at which point he'd be in the same boat. You're focusing too much on Nino when my point is that Erk is poo poo, not that Nino is the best mage ever or whatever. My point isn't that you can't use him, but that he's the worst mage in the game that isn't Renault. You have no incentive to use him compared to most of the units you have access to throughout the game. Nino's a gimmick but she can easily take the place of one of your A team in the space of half an hour of effort if you so chose. Erk will never be A team material in the first place. Okay but you just compared to Erk, what about Pent? Also it's not less effort because Erk has Lyn mode where he has no competition for deployment and the early game where he can basically nuke everything with little effort. and even then, if he doesn't turn out, say hello to Pent. And you're "Erk is the worst that's not Renault" is absolutely hilarious because his averages are perfectly reasonable to carry him through the game. Onmi fucked around with this message at 06:07 on Jan 17, 2014 |
# ? Jan 17, 2014 06:05 |
|
My argument is that Nino is worse than Erk, and therefore it'd be Erk > Nino > Renault instead of Nino > Erk > Renault.Bongo Bill posted:Huge numbers are fun. Sorry, losers.
|
# ? Jan 17, 2014 06:05 |
|
Onmi posted:Okay but you just compared to Erk, what about Pent? I never cared about comparing Pent to Nino, what have you been reading. Endorph posted:My argument is that Nino is worse than Erk, and therefore it'd be Erk > Nino > Renault instead of Nino > Erk > Renault. Just so long as we agree that Renault is the worst.
|
# ? Jan 17, 2014 06:07 |
|
I believe fun is the proper way to play, and I always like having Nino and Jaffar kill things together. It's fun! Same thing with the trainees. Sure, they're not as good, but I enjoy raising them for the postgame.
|
# ? Jan 17, 2014 06:43 |
|
Manatee Cannon posted:I never cared about comparing Pent to Nino, what have you been reading. Coming with A rank staves is way better than anything Nino is doing.
|
# ? Jan 17, 2014 07:16 |
|
The Iron Rose posted:I believe fun is the proper way to play, and I always like having Nino and Jaffar kill things together. It's fun! This is the right attitude. I don't care if I have to be careful with Neimi for half the game, it's fun as hell to watch her as a ranger with Colm backing her up as they charge in and crit-murder everything.
|
# ? Jan 17, 2014 07:22 |
|
So is this argument basically "okay so Nino is available for far less of the game, requires at minimum an entire chapter of experience to even start pulling her own weight, doesn't actually turn out that much better than people I've had for much more of the game, and at her absolute best still kind of sucks since FE7 has a million other awesome units who don't have constitution issues, but screw it she's a nice character"? Because I can get behind that.
|
# ? Jan 17, 2014 07:36 |
|
The Iron Rose posted:I believe fun is the proper way to play, and I always like having Nino and Jaffar kill things together. It's fun!
|
# ? Jan 17, 2014 07:37 |
|
BlitzBlast posted:So is this argument basically "okay so Nino is available for far less of the game, requires at minimum an entire chapter of experience to even start pulling her own weight, doesn't actually turn out that much better than people I've had for much more of the game, and at her absolute best still kind of sucks since FE7 has a million other awesome units who don't have constitution issues, but screw it she's a nice character"? That's basically how it goes for all Ests. They don't tend to be good by any metric besides "stats at max level", but they're fun to use. It's just very satisfying to have an awful unit near the end of the game, and very quickly work them up into a great unit.
|
# ? Jan 17, 2014 07:38 |
|
What's a good way to reliably get relationship stats up in Awakening? I've been pairing up characters I that I want to marry with each other basically constantly. Current pairs are: Miriel - Virion Valke - Sully Chrom - Sumia Male Tactician - Donnelly Lissa - Ricken Donnelly I feel like needs the xp bonus, and plus the pairings above make sense to me. Advice?
|
# ? Jan 17, 2014 07:40 |
|
Pair up whoever the hell you want to and yeah, just have them attached at the hip. For Lissa/Ricken you can have Lissa heal Ricken some, too. Basically doing anything with those two units gives your relationship points - that's what those little hearts are.
|
# ? Jan 17, 2014 07:44 |
|
I use terrible units all the time, I took Zealot to the end game of FE6 because I just happen to like Zealot. I use the trainees of FE8 even though the Trainees are god awful, I used Arden in FE4 and got him up to level 30! You can use terrible units and still know they're terrible. Just like you can know that the Laguz Kings are absolute poo poo wreckers and still not bring any to the end game of RD because... well you just don't want too. There's nothing wrong with that.
|
# ? Jan 17, 2014 07:49 |
|
Artificer posted:What's a good way to reliably get relationship stats up in Awakening? I've been pairing up characters I that I want to marry with each other basically constantly. You have the Avatar's skill Veteran backwards. It gives the Avatar 50% more EXP while Paired Up, not the person who is paired with them. If you want Donnel to get married at some point you're going to want to pair him with a female unit but it's not really a big deal if the Avatar + Donnel is working for you. Wind God Sety posted:That's basically how it goes for all Ests. They don't tend to be good by any metric besides "stats at max level", but they're fun to use. It's just very satisfying to have an awful unit near the end of the game, and very quickly work them up into a great unit. FE5 Sara is an Est that is legitimately a good unit. She has Elite, great Staff rank and is only 3 levels away from those sweet sweet Sage promotion bonuses.
|
# ? Jan 17, 2014 08:07 |
|
WrightOfWay posted:You have the Avatar's skill Veteran backwards. It gives the Avatar 50% more EXP while Paired Up, not the person who is paired with them. If you want Donnel to get married at some point you're going to want to pair him with a female unit but it's not really a big deal if the Avatar + Donnel is working for you. Also Zeiss, who's "Technically" an Est in that he's an unpromoted unit with high growths and a low level. On the other hand he sort of starts with 20 strength on Hard Mode and like 16 on Normal, so he comes out swinging and very close to early promotion. Also unlike Guiding Rings and Hero Crests, Elysian Whips are in common supply. And failing all that he can still rescue and cart around Roy. Zeiss is an Est I like.
|
# ? Jan 17, 2014 08:13 |
|
It appears my memory is totally hosed, since I checked my Radiant Dawn savefiles and I have saves halfway through Part 3 ...Think I'll just start over regardless.
|
# ? Jan 17, 2014 12:07 |
|
|
# ? Mar 28, 2024 11:18 |
|
Endorph posted:Average Stats at 20/10 for Erk and Nino: Nino's starting Luck is 10, her average Luck on 20/10 is 21. Also I find that once you reach a certain stat threshold whether due to a combination of Speed and Luck or strong defenses in FE7 it becomes almost impossible for most average enemies to kill you. Nino usually hits this threshold, Erk does not. You can send Nino up to fight one of the three huge waves of reinforcements in Victory or Death by herself and she will typically come out alive. You can't do the same with Erk. His evade just isn't high enough.
|
# ? Jan 17, 2014 15:14 |