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Anyone find this strip incredibly depressing? Something sad about Roy, Elan and Haley being alright with their friend who loathed then undead becoming one and aiding the monster that he became, merely because it seems close enough to them. The afterlife was tempted to ding Roy for merely associating with Belkar, what are they going to say about aiding a vampire?
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Jan 17, 2014 15:08
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My guess is Durkon isn't planning to betray or con them, just that he's evil now and will solve a situation in an evil way to the shock of Roy, Elan and Haley who are then confronted with the fact that he isn't in fact the same person.
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Jan 17, 2014 15:11
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I'm impressed that Roy solved feeding the vampire with what amounts to an exploitation of the rules.
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Jan 17, 2014 15:19
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Eifert Posting posted:The afterlife was tempted to ding Roy for merely associating with Belkar, what are they going to say about aiding a vampire? Roy pointed out that he pointed Belkar toward a goal AND kept him from causing more harm. In this case they are taking a very powerful vampire cleric and preventing him from feeding on innocents and still pointing him toward a greater evil. They've also stated that, when they can, they will stake and resurrect him to save old Durkon. To do so now would take away their only source of healing and a decent sort of magical strength. Plus even if vamped he is their friend and they have a better chance of saving him if he is with them and fed by them.
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Jan 17, 2014 15:41
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Morand posted:Roy pointed out that he pointed Belkar toward a goal AND kept him from causing more harm. In this case they are taking a very powerful vampire cleric and preventing him from feeding on innocents and still pointing him toward a greater evil. They've also stated that, when they can, they will stake and resurrect him to save old Durkon. The problem of course being that Durkon is smart enough to know what it means when Roy starts looking out for a high-level cleric.
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Jan 17, 2014 15:56
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IMJack posted:I'm impressed that Roy solved feeding the vampire with what amounts to an exploitation of the rules. Not really. Clerics get the spell Create Food and Water. For a 3rd level spell-slot (instead of 4th for Restoration) he could manifest enough food for party and the entire airship crew. There's also Goodberry (1st level Druid spell), Purify Food and Drink (0th level Cleric spell that lets you pack rotten meat as rations), and even Heroes' Feast (6th level Bard instant-party spell).
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Jan 17, 2014 16:04
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A vampire's feeding lowers your Con score. You don't get that back after wolfing down on a steak and tall glass of OJ. That's what the restoration is for.
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Jan 17, 2014 16:11
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Who What Now posted:A vampire's feeding lowers your Con score. You don't get that back after wolfing down on a steak and tall glass of OJ. That's what the restoration is for. Right. I'm saying it's not really an "exploit" to get around the hassle of vampire feeding with a 4th level spell, because there are other D&D spells designed to get around the hassle of regular feeding. So you could feed everyone for a 3rd-level slot, or just the vampire for a 4th-level slot. Hunger of any kind is just not a huge deal when you have magic.
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Jan 17, 2014 16:19
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I'm glad they're not getting into it now, but when the Vampire Ethics Debate shoe drops it's going to be a doozy. There is no right answer here and I sorta love it.
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Jan 17, 2014 16:49
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Mniot posted:Heroes' Feast (6th level Bard instant-party spell). Heroes' Feast is one of my favorite useless spells.
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Jan 17, 2014 17:32
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Eifert Posting posted:The afterlife was tempted to ding Roy for merely associating with Belkar, what are they going to say about aiding a vampire? The devas were only going to dig Roy because he was in charge of Belkar and thus partially responsible for all the evil he did under his care. Roy explicitly said only Paladins get penalised for mere association.
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Jan 17, 2014 17:38
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CapnAndy posted:I'm glad they're not getting into it now, but when the Vampire Ethics Debate shoe drops it's going to be a doozy. There is no right answer here and I sorta love it. I don't know. If what people are saying about D&D vampires is true (and Malick seems to agree with this), there kind of is a right answer. There's no real way to justify allowing a person's soul to be kept in eternal bondage and permanently barred from the afterlife through no action of their own. Durkula is certainly about the most friendly and harmless a vampire can be but he's still keeping a good man's soul from its eternal rest just by existing and it's hard for me to picture Roy being swayed by any argument that ignores that.
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Jan 17, 2014 17:47
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We don't know that Roy (or anyone else) knows exactly what's happening to his soul.
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Jan 17, 2014 17:48
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And honestly, this is less of a moral debate and more of a D&D debate. It's not like resurrection is a problem vampire lore generally has to deal with and it's not like D&D is really well thought out when it comes to this kind of things.
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Jan 17, 2014 18:09
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ImpAtom posted:I don't know. If what people are saying about D&D vampires is true (and Malick seems to agree with this), there kind of is a right answer. There's no real way to justify allowing a person's soul to be kept in eternal bondage and permanently barred from the afterlife through no action of their own. Durkula is certainly about the most friendly and harmless a vampire can be but he's still keeping a good man's soul from its eternal rest just by existing and it's hard for me to picture Roy being swayed by any argument that ignores that. But then you've gotta do something about Belkar, don't you? Better wait for his back to be turned and then attack him out of the blue, even though he's been nothing but loyal to you and it's a huge betrayal. You just did the same thing to Durkon, what's one more? Beat him down, tie him up, and get Compel cast on him. He'll prefer being Good, he really will. It's win/win. And man, Ian Starshine's been nothing but a pain in the rear end, hasn't he? Let's slap a Geas on him and order him to stop being so goddamn paranoid. And, and, and... where do you stop? Before or after you've become Tarquin? I don't think the "oh it's because he's Undead" argument holds up. If he was a Good-aligned Undead, would Plan A immediately become "let's kill him and Resurrect him"? I somehow doubt it. Him being a vampire just gives a convenient smokescreen to the real issue everyone has, which is that he's Evil now, get him! And seriously, has there been a stronger subtheme in this comic than "'he's Evil, get him!' is completely morally unsound"?
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Jan 17, 2014 18:15
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ConfusedUs posted:Heroes' Feast is one of my favorite useless spells. It's not that bad, since it also provides blanket immunity to fear and poison to the entire party for 12 hours, making it useful if you know what you're going up against and have a cleric to prepare it. It's useful if you're going to fight things like undead, dragons, or yuan-ti, or if you want to go on a 12 hour bender since alcohol is also considered a poison in D&D.
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Jan 17, 2014 18:55
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He's missing one very vital aspect of Durkon's personality, in the least. He also loses his accent when agitated, and just implied he still gets spells from Thor, which he probably does not. He's not as much Durkon as he wants Roy to think he is.
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Jan 17, 2014 18:58
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CapnAndy posted:The nasty question, though, is how much of that is still Durkon? He has all of Durkon's memories, all of his mannerisms, all of his goals. He's clearly sentient. If he's capable of comparing his two states and prefers this one, you're stepping over a big line by acting against his wishes. Oh, sure, it's in his best interests. The difference being that killing evil Durkon is necessary to bring good Durkon back to life. Changing Belkar or Ian isn't restoring their dead friend, while staking and resurrecting Durkula is. Malack made clear that the vampire and the person that was turned into the vampire are two different people; Durkon is dead right now and the thing walking around with his memories and body isn't him.
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Jan 17, 2014 18:59
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While killing Durkula right now would be a good act, it'd also be a gigantic moronic decision. They're going to need him to beat Xykon and they've got no way of actually reviving actual Durkon. Keeping him around is the lesser of two evils.
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Jan 17, 2014 19:10
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I agree, but none of the characters are thinking that way. Maybe they're playing a long con so Durkula will be easier to take down in the future, but they are all treating him like he's actually Durkon. Kind of sad.
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Jan 17, 2014 19:14
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ImpAtom posted:I don't know. If what people are saying about D&D vampires is true (and Malick seems to agree with this), there kind of is a right answer. There's no real way to justify allowing a person's soul to be kept in eternal bondage and permanently barred from the afterlife through no action of their own. Durkula is certainly about the most friendly and harmless a vampire can be but he's still keeping a good man's soul from its eternal rest just by existing and it's hard for me to picture Roy being swayed by any argument that ignores that. "Eternal rest" is not really a thing for a D&D adventurer except when they retire or when things go really badly. Sefer posted:The difference being that killing evil Durkon is necessary to bring good Durkon back to life. Changing Belkar or Ian isn't restoring their dead friend, while staking and resurrecting Durkula is. Malack made clear that the vampire and the person that was turned into the vampire are two different people; Durkon is dead right now and the thing walking around with his memories and body isn't him. And none of the Order knows that. Except maybe Belkar? I don't remember. Anyway, most of them at least seem to think that it is Durkon, and even if they have doubts they, especially Roy, aren't going to want to acknowledge that it might not be.
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Jan 17, 2014 19:14
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Durkon is Tuvix. Is Roy captain Janeway?
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Jan 17, 2014 19:14
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Roland Jones posted:"Eternal rest" is not really a thing for a D&D adventurer except when they retire or when things go really badly. We saw Roy's afterlife. Even if Durkon's is not identical, we know Thor is a dude who fights hard for his souls. There is totally an afterlife for Durkon to go to.
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Jan 17, 2014 19:20
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ImpAtom posted:We saw Roy's afterlife. Even if Durkon's is not identical, we know Thor is a dude who fights hard for his souls. There is totally an afterlife for Durkon to go to. That is not what I meant. Durkon's going to be resurrected, or at least that's what the Order is planning. Just like Roy was, just like Haley figured she'd have to be that one time, and so on. The only way this would be keeping Durkon from his "eternal rest" would be if he otherwise wouldn't be brought back ASAP anyway, which is, again, generally not how it goes for D&D parties and definitely not what the Order has in mind.
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Jan 17, 2014 19:27
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Roland Jones posted:That is not what I meant. Durkon's going to be resurrected, or at least that's what the Order is planning. Just like Roy was, just like Haley figured she'd have to be that one time, and so on. The only way this would be keeping Durkon from his "eternal rest" would be if he otherwise wouldn't be brought back ASAP anyway, which is, again, generally not how it goes for D&D parties and definitely not what the Order has in mind. The argument here is that there is a moral argument against killing Durkula at all, not killing Durkula specifically at that moment.
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Jan 17, 2014 19:29
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CapnAndy posted:
Its that exactly the state that Durkon is in right now? Except instead of Compel its Vampire Bite. If Durkon says he prefers to be a vampire that is no different from the hypothetical Compelled-Belkar saying he prefers being good. Both cases are obviously magical brainwashing and the right thing to do is remove the brainwashing. Now, if you restore Durkon, and then he says he would rather be a vampire again, that would be interesting.
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Jan 17, 2014 19:36
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Would the clone spell work on a vampire?(putting aside that I think its range is "you"), presuming they has a cubic inch of flesh from when he was alive, and the process didn't take 2d4 months.
greatn fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Jan 17, 2014 |
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Jan 17, 2014 19:39
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greatn posted:Durkon is Tuvix. Is Roy captain Janeway? Except he's not two people you knew combined in one. He's an evil spirit hitching a ride in your friend's body. just hope this isn't going to go very wrong before Roy realizes it.
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Jan 17, 2014 19:41
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Tinyn posted:Now, if you restore Durkon, and then he says he would rather be a vampire again, that would be interesting. An interesting hypothetical, maybe, but Durkon hates the undead; we know he'd never choose to be a vampire. You don't have to restore him just to find that out.
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Jan 17, 2014 19:44
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The "Hel can't get any souls from Thor because loophole." gag is going to be a lot less funny in retrospect when Durkon ends up the only Dwarf in the comic who doesn't get into Dwarfhalla because reasons.
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Jan 17, 2014 20:45
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I know we know that a vampire's soul is separate from the host body's thanks to Malack's exposition, but does the rest the Order know this? If they think that the undead monster walking around is the same dwarf in both body and soul, that would explain their seeming lack of judgment in the matter.
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Jan 17, 2014 20:50
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I think Malak's exposition wasn't as mechanic as it seems to have been interpreted. Can you imagine living two centuries with a disease that forced you to completely change your way of life? Would you say you'd be the same person at the end than you were before? There's no need for the vampire mind to be a foreign spirit. Malak was still Malak, and Durkon is still Durkon. They've been altered, but not replaced.
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Jan 17, 2014 21:32
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So Durkon still has Malack's staff, an item which we know contains Protection from Daylight as well as a spell to cause vampirism to take effect instantly. He also mentioned that he thought Roy was the only one in the party who would be able to resist a vampire's domination. What's stopping him from draining Roy dry when he drinks from him and then dominating everyone else, then bringing them all back as vampires? Even if this isn't a front and he really is still friends with them as a vampire, he might think they'd be less likely to turn on him if they were vampires as well. Or even that they'd be happier, or more able to save the world with the additional power.
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Jan 17, 2014 21:34
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Nothings to stop him. Personally I say do it.
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Jan 17, 2014 21:36
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Nothing to stop him, other than his not being an insufferable grognard.
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Jan 17, 2014 21:46
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I bet he loves grog actually.
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Jan 17, 2014 21:47
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Grognard has no shared etymology with grog, though. Comes from "grogner", the French verb for "grunt". As for things stopping Durkon from turning the Order of the Stick into the Order of the Stake, there's one simple problem: food. Sure, they have the airship's crew, but they can't rely on them being a lasting resource. They need one blood source and one restoration spell per vampire in the party, so it's better to keep the vampire count low.
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Jan 17, 2014 21:55
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Zonekeeper posted:I know we know that a vampire's soul is separate from the host body's thanks to Malack's exposition, but does the rest the Order know this? Pretty sure Belkar was conscious but paralyzed during Malack's exposition, so at least one member of the order should know it. Incidentally, he's the one most concerned with staking Durkon.
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Jan 17, 2014 22:22
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Cat Mattress posted:Grognard has no shared etymology with grog, though. Comes from "grogner", the French verb for "grunt". They don't really need the restoration spell once everyone in the party has had an attitude adjustment. If it's too distracting to hunt and feed off of warm-blooded creatures in the northern wastes, blood sources could be a factor. The real bottleneck could be the finite supply of Protection from Daylight, since iirc staves can't be easily recharged (unless he learns to cast the spell directly).
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Jan 17, 2014 22:31
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It's probably not that much of an issue for a party of their level, unless stock and room for said stock is rigorously tracked, but Restoration isn't free. It costs 100 GP a pop, and uses diamond dust. But it could be an issue.
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Jan 17, 2014 22:54
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