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sfwarlock
Aug 11, 2007
So after 100 days, they're break-even on staking him instead.

EDIT: Also, I almost said something about LE vs CE with regards to betraying the party... but gently caress it.

sfwarlock fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Jan 17, 2014

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Shwqa
Feb 13, 2012

Sefer posted:

Pretty sure Belkar was conscious but paralyzed during Malack's exposition, so at least one member of the order should know it. Incidentally, he's the one most concerned with staking Durkon.

And he knows durkon's final request was to save his life. He might be selfless enough to at least free his soul. I mean Belkar is pretty selfish, but in this instance all he needs to do is kill someone, which is right up his alley.


Edit: I hope that is how he dies.

greatn
Nov 15, 2006

by Lowtax
He could always gate some tasty creatures, probably enough for everyone!

Ponsonby Britt
Mar 13, 2006
I think you mean, why is there silverware in the pancake drawer? Wassup?
Couldn't the party just use a helm of opposite alignment or something to make Durkon Good again? There would still be an ethical dilemma (is it right to forcibly change someone's alignment), but as a practical matter the helm would be way cheaper and easier than finding a high-level, sympathetic cleric, and the party would get to keep using Durkon's vampire strength to help out against Xykon.

Taciturn Tactician
Jan 27, 2011

The secret to good health is a balanced diet and unstable healing radiation
Lipstick Apathy

Ponsonby Britt posted:

Couldn't the party just use a helm of opposite alignment or something to make Durkon Good again? There would still be an ethical dilemma (is it right to forcibly change someone's alignment), but as a practical matter the helm would be way cheaper and easier than finding a high-level, sympathetic cleric, and the party would get to keep using Durkon's vampire strength to help out against Xykon.

I don't think V has ever been shown to have any ability to craft magical items, and you usually can't just find a particular special item like that from merchants.

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012

Shocked I tell you

Ponsonby Britt posted:

Couldn't the party just use a helm of opposite alignment or something to make Durkon Good again? There would still be an ethical dilemma (is it right to forcibly change someone's alignment), but as a practical matter the helm would be way cheaper and easier than finding a high-level, sympathetic cleric, and the party would get to keep using Durkon's vampire strength to help out against Xykon.

It's mind affecting so it would not work on a vampire.

Dr. Buttass
Aug 12, 2013

AWFUL SOMETHING

Cat Mattress posted:

Grognard has no shared etymology with grog, though. Comes from "grogner", the French verb for "grunt".

As for things stopping Durkon from turning the Order of the Stick into the Order of the Stake, there's one simple problem: food. Sure, they have the airship's crew, but they can't rely on them being a lasting resource. They need one blood source and one restoration spell per vampire in the party, so it's better to keep the vampire count low.

I think that got brought up in either Discworld or the Dresden Files. When people reproduce, they're creating a legacy. When vampires reproduce, they're creating competition. So it's in a vampire's best interest to keep offspring at a minimum.

Eifert Posting
Apr 1, 2007

Most of the time he catches it every time.
Grimey Drawer
Durkula is also insanely powerful. If their current situation goes tits up you now have an evil epic CR creature that is immortal and has access to high tier spells.

Remember Redcloak's speech about the undead? Seems relevant.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


Eifert Posting posted:

Durkula is also insanely powerful. If their current situation goes tits up you now have an evil epic CR creature that is immortal and has access to high tier spells.

He's not truly immortal until he gets a coffin.

Earnestly
Apr 24, 2010

Jazz hands!

Lurdiak posted:

He's not truly immortal until he gets a coffin.

Yeah, then he will be immortal like Malack.

Shugojin
Sep 6, 2007

THE TAIL THAT BURNS TWICE AS BRIGHT...


He's not immortal by any D&D stretch, but he did get a good bit harder to kill.

Nothing's really immortal in D&D though, even gods turn into husks floating around the Astral Plane if too few people believe in them.

e: Which was one of the cooler things about the planar cosmology, in my opinion :v:

ikanreed
Sep 25, 2009

I honestly I have no idea who cannibal[SIC] is and I do not know why I should know.

syq dude, just syq!

Eifert Posting posted:

Durkula is also insanely powerful. If their current situation goes tits up you now have an evil epic CR creature that is immortal and has access to high tier spells.

Remember Redcloak's speech about the undead? Seems relevant.

Not quite. The +8 is for effective character level, which is different from CR, for which vampires are only a +2. Why the difference? My impression is that they're designed to target minmaxers who would mix character abilities/items/mischievousness to abuse their new-found power. A cleric 8 levels higher than Durkon would absolutely mop the floor with him, so the +8 is a little misleading.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

"According to Wikipedia" there is a black hole that emits zionist hawking radiation where my brain should have been

I really should just shut the fuck up and stop posting forever
College Slice

ImpAtom posted:

I don't know. If what people are saying about D&D vampires is true (and Malick seems to agree with this), there kind of is a right answer. There's no real way to justify allowing a person's soul to be kept in eternal bondage and permanently barred from the afterlife through no action of their own. Durkula is certainly about the most friendly and harmless a vampire can be but he's still keeping a good man's soul from its eternal rest just by existing and it's hard for me to picture Roy being swayed by any argument that ignores that.

We don't know this. Rich has never explained how vampires work in the Ootsverse, this is as different between Faerun and Greyhawk as night and day, the mechanics are mute on this.

CapnAndy posted:

The nasty question, though, is how much of that is still Durkon? He has all of Durkon's memories, all of his mannerisms, all of his goals. He's clearly sentient. If he's capable of comparing his two states and prefers this one, you're stepping over a big line by acting against his wishes. Oh, sure, it's in his best interests.

But then you've gotta do something about Belkar, don't you? Better wait for his back to be turned and then attack him out of the blue, even though he's been nothing but loyal to you and it's a huge betrayal. You just did the same thing to Durkon, what's one more? Beat him down, tie him up, and get Compel cast on him. He'll prefer being Good, he really will. It's win/win.

And man, Ian Starshine's been nothing but a pain in the rear end, hasn't he? Let's slap a Geas on him and order him to stop being so goddamn paranoid. And, and, and... where do you stop? Before or after you've become Tarquin?

I don't think the "oh it's because he's Undead" argument holds up. If he was a Good-aligned Undead, would Plan A immediately become "let's kill him and Resurrect him"? I somehow doubt it. Him being a vampire just gives a convenient smokescreen to the real issue everyone has, which is that he's Evil now, get him!

And seriously, has there been a stronger subtheme in this comic than "'he's Evil, get him!' is completely morally unsound"?

Exhibit A: Baelnorn. Good aligned Elven liches to protect the sacred motherland.

ikanreed
Sep 25, 2009

I honestly I have no idea who cannibal[SIC] is and I do not know why I should know.

syq dude, just syq!

Raenir Salazar posted:


Exhibit A: Baelnorn. Good aligned Elven liches to protect the sacred motherland.

One of my players to me: "Why won't you let me play good aligned undead? I just want to gather corpses of people in town and create a useful force of ghouls to protect them?"

Undead can in theory be good, but damned if they ever actually are.

Zulily Zoetrope
Jun 1, 2011

Muldoon

ikanreed posted:

One of my players to me: "Why won't you let me play good aligned undead? I just want to gather corpses of people in town and create a useful force of ghouls to protect them?"

Undead can in theory be good, but damned if they ever actually are.

Non-free-willed undead are animated using the soul they used to have. This tears the soul away from wherever it is and traps it in a mockery of who they used to be. Animating those is pretty explicitly evil in D&D.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Kajeesus posted:

Non-free-willed undead are animated using the soul they used to have. This tears the soul away from wherever it is and traps it in a mockery of who they used to be. Animating those is pretty explicitly evil in D&D.

That is pretty clearly not how it works in OOTS though. Still evil I'd bet!

Captain Oblivious
Oct 12, 2007

I'm not like other posters

ImpAtom posted:

That is pretty clearly not how it works in OOTS though. Still evil I'd bet!

How so?

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007


In one of the prequel stories Xykon traps someone's soul inside of a gem and then resurrects their corpse as a zombie.

Nihilarian
Oct 2, 2013


If I ever play a good necromancer he'll only raise dead people who give permission in the form of a signed contract.

I'll have to give him a fantastic charisma score to convince people to sign, though.

jng2058
Jul 17, 2010

We have the tools, we have the talent!





Wouldn't have to be that hard. There are a lot of neutral and evil people who don't give a poo poo what happens to their corpse once they aren't in it. If you offered enough gold up front while they're still alive I'm sure you'd get plenty of takers as long as you avoided goody two shoes realms. Go to Greysky City or pretty much any place in the Western Continent not run by elves in OOtS and you'll have more volunteers than you can handle.

Of course, getting the grieving families to hand over the corpse post-mortem might be another thing entirely...

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003




Kajeesus posted:

Non-free-willed undead are animated using the soul they used to have. This tears the soul away from wherever it is and traps it in a mockery of who they used to be. Animating those is pretty explicitly evil in D&D.

Soooooo... Bone golems?

Phenotype
Jul 24, 2007

You must defeat Sheng Long to stand a chance.



Nihilarian posted:

If I ever play a good necromancer he'll only raise dead people who give permission in the form of a signed contract.

I'll have to give him a fantastic charisma score to convince people to sign, though.

And then you can have a hilarious adventure where an immortal accidentally ends up in your shop with amnesia.

Cat Mattress
Jul 14, 2012

by Cyrano4747

ikanreed posted:

One of my players to me: "Why won't you let me play good aligned undead? I just want to gather corpses of people in town and create a useful force of ghouls to protect them?"

Undead can in theory be good, but damned if they ever actually are.

Not D&D, but you see that in Unsounded. Zombie teams doing various menial jobs. I like the "Recycled Labor at Work" sign.

Hypocrisy
Oct 4, 2006
Lord of Sarcasm

jng2058 posted:

Roy's a PC. Any group of PCs worth their salt when given access to a Vampire Cleric will move heaven and earth to keep said Cleric. There's so much power and utility there.

Any group of PCs worth their salt will toss that ECL nightmare as soon as they get a chance.

I wonder what will happen to V to prevent him from gaining more problematic magic?

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003




Hypocrisy posted:

I wonder what will happen to V to prevent him from gaining more problematic magic?

They're going into a final dungeon against a sorcerer, I don't think it's an issue there.

ikanreed
Sep 25, 2009

I honestly I have no idea who cannibal[SIC] is and I do not know why I should know.

syq dude, just syq!

Hypocrisy posted:

Any group of PCs worth their salt will toss that ECL nightmare as soon as they get a chance.

I wonder what will happen to V to prevent him from gaining more problematic magic?

All 3.5 magic is problematic, after about 5th level spells. I'm not sure what you mean.

bartolimu
Nov 25, 2002


MikeJF posted:

Soooooo... Bone golems?

Bone golems are constructs, not undead.

Capfalcon
Apr 6, 2012

No Boots on the Ground,
Puny Mortals!

bartolimu posted:

Bone golems are constructs, not undead.

I think his point is, "So instead of making an army of animated undead, which would be wrong, why not make an army of Bone Golems, which apparently has no moral repercussions."

Of course, I think all golems have a percentage chance to just flip the gently caress out and murder everything, so I don't know if they would make the best civil servants.

Cliff Racer
Mar 24, 2007

by Lowtax

Capfalcon posted:

Of course, I think all golems have a percentage chance to just flip the gently caress out and murder everything, so I don't know if they would make the best civil servants.
Just don't make thme postmen and you'll be fine.

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012

Capfalcon posted:

Of course, I think all golems have a percentage chance to just flip the gently caress out and murder everything, so I don't know if they would make the best civil servants.

Only certain golems have that: clay and flesh for sure, but possibly others as well. I know iron and stone don't.

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012

Shocked I tell you
Ghouls are free wiled and eat flesh so there are pretty much the worse choice to guard a town.

VanSandman
Feb 16, 2011
SWAP.AVI EXCHANGER

Nihilarian posted:

If I ever play a good necromancer he'll only raise dead people who give permission in the form of a signed contract.

I'll have to give him a fantastic charisma score to convince people to sign, though.

If you've never heard of the dustmen or played Planescape: Torment, fix that ASAP.

Facebook Aunt
Oct 4, 2008

wiggle wiggle




Capfalcon posted:

I think his point is, "So instead of making an army of animated undead, which would be wrong, why not make an army of Bone Golems, which apparently has no moral repercussions."

Of course, I think all golems have a percentage chance to just flip the gently caress out and murder everything, so I don't know if they would make the best civil servants.

If you aren't a creepy weirdo, is there any reason that bone golems would be better or easier to make than many kinds of not creepy golems? I don't know much about them, but they can be made of stone, mud, and all sorts of poo poo. It's hard to imagine a situation where bone is your most plentiful raw material at hand.

Brannock
Feb 9, 2006

by exmarx
Fallen Rib

Angela Christine posted:

It's hard to imagine a situation where bone is your most plentiful raw material at hand.





fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012

Angela Christine posted:

If you aren't a creepy weirdo, is there any reason that bone golems would be better or easier to make than many kinds of not creepy golems? I don't know much about them, but they can be made of stone, mud, and all sorts of poo poo. It's hard to imagine a situation where bone is your most plentiful raw material at hand.

Different golems have different requirements and costs to make. I know flesh golems are particularly cheap, xp and magical reagent-wise, and can be created at a lower caster level than the other sorts. Bone golems may be the same way.

Facebook Aunt
Oct 4, 2008

wiggle wiggle





You got me there. :) I was going to say those aren't very common, but in most D&D settings every third town probably has one.

Dr. Buttass
Aug 12, 2013

AWFUL SOMETHING

fool_of_sound posted:

Different golems have different requirements and costs to make. I know flesh golems are particularly cheap, xp and magical reagent-wise, and can be created at a lower caster level than the other sorts. Bone golems may be the same way.

Also, in case of damage, a bone golem can be repaired with nothing but a tall, refreshing glass of milk!

Eifert Posting
Apr 1, 2007

Most of the time he catches it every time.
Grimey Drawer

He prefaced it with "If you aren't a weirdo."

Cabbit
Jul 19, 2001

Is that everything you have?

ikanreed posted:

One of my players to me: "Why won't you let me play good aligned undead? I just want to gather corpses of people in town and create a useful force of ghouls to protect them?"

Undead can in theory be good, but damned if they ever actually are.

Have you read into the Eberron setting? Because there's a couple applications of 'good aligned undead' and 'civic engineering via the undead', respectively, there.

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Alliterate Addict
Jul 10, 2012

dreaming of that face again

it's bright and blue and shimmering

grinning wide and comforting me with it's three warm and wild eyes

ikanreed posted:

One of my players to me: "Why won't you let me play good aligned undead? I just want to gather corpses of people in town and create a useful force of ghouls to protect them?"

Undead can in theory be good, but damned if they ever actually are.

I always wonder where "chaotic good-but-misguided-and/or-socially-inept" falls on the alignment scale.

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