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Cabbit posted:Have you read into the Eberron setting? Because there's a couple applications of 'good aligned undead' and 'civic engineering via the undead', respectively, there. Keep in mind that the undead that aren't mindless necro-labor are still psycho-crazy, just constrained by a rigid hierarchical system.
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Jan 19, 2014 09:05
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Cabbit posted:Have you read into the Eberron setting? Because there's a couple applications of 'good aligned undead' and 'civic engineering via the undead', respectively, there. The best was from Scarred Lands; http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/3279/Hollowfaust-City-of-Necromancers?it=1 . Sets the city founding necromancers up as pilgrims fleeing religious persecution. Fastest way to gain social standing in the city was to will your body to the college to be raised after death to serve in the city's social services departments.
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Jan 19, 2014 09:46
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I know about that first picture, made by a blind monk if I recall. Are the other two from the same location?
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Jan 19, 2014 18:06
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wiegieman posted:Keep in mind that the undead that aren't mindless necro-labor are still psycho-crazy, just constrained by a rigid hierarchical system. Well, Karrnathi undead, yeah. The Undying Court's deathless were positive energy undead, though. Cabbit fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Jan 19, 2014 |
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Jan 19, 2014 18:12
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Cabbit posted:Well, Karrnathi undead, yeah. The Undying Court's deathless were positive energy undead, though. Which means they are forced to be Good, as much as that matters in Eberron at least
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Jan 19, 2014 22:02
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Rumda posted:Which means they are forced to be Good, as much as that matters in Eberron at least Well no it's more that they don't die. The difference between Deathless and Undead is Deathless are a genuine soul in a body and they don't age/die and Undead are dead bodies animated by dark majicks
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Jan 19, 2014 22:33
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Rumda posted:Which means they are forced to be Good, as much as that matters in Eberron at least Er aren't good and evil related to planes other than the negative and positive energy planes? Like the heaven and hell analogues? I always kind of assumed the energy planes were closer to places like the plane of fire or something than the upper heavenish and lower hellish planes, you know, not good or evil instead just sort of there doing whatever it is the thing the plane is made of does in nature. Please note my knowledge of D&D cosmology is pretty small, so....
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Jan 19, 2014 23:04
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Well no it's more that they don't die. The difference between Deathless and Undead is Deathless are a genuine soul in a body and they don't age/die and Undead are dead bodies animated by dark majicks If they're animated by positive energy aren't they basically just super-alive? That's why negative energy is harmful to living things in D&D, right? Living things have positive energy.
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Jan 19, 2014 23:17
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Slime posted:If they're animated by positive energy aren't they basically just super-alive? That's why negative energy is harmful to living things in D&D, right? Living things have positive energy. Yes, exactly. And undead are "alive" with Negative Energy in the exact same way a body is alive with Positive Energy. A body with neither form of energy is just an inert corpse. Too much Positive Energy is also bad. If you're on the Positive Energy Plane you regain lost HP. And once that is filled you start accruing Temporary Hit Points. And once you have twice as many Temp HP as you do regular HP then you literally explode. Who What Now fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Jan 19, 2014 |
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Jan 19, 2014 23:34
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Slime posted:If they're animated by positive energy aren't they basically just super-alive? That's why negative energy is harmful to living things in D&D, right? Living things have positive energy. Though normally, positive energy in excess is also harmful to living things. Tends to make them too lively, as in, first they get super-healthy, and then they experience random growths until they burst. Imagine magical cancer in technicolor. Positive energy planes quote:Positive-Dominant efb while looking for the SRD
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Jan 19, 2014 23:38
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Cliff Racer posted:Just don't make thme postmen and you'll be fine. No Discworld references?! I am disappointed in everyone. 
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Jan 19, 2014 23:38
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Who What Now posted:Yes, exactly. And undead are "alive" with Negative Energy in the exact same way a body is alive with Positive Energy. A body with neither form of energy is just an inert corpse. Actually you just pop from Too Much Positive Energy in you anywhere if your THP=HP. It's why I my favorite character I ever played was a Healer who had a feat that turned excessive healing into THP and you just Heal enemies until they explode.
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Jan 19, 2014 23:41
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Here's my thoughts on Durkon, based on what I think I can glean from the narrative. Firstly, Rich's opinion is that fantasy worth telling has value based on what it tells us about the real world. I don't fully believe that this is the case, I'm sure simply being fun and enjoyable to the read is sufficient. On the other hand Rich also mentions that sometimes he has to play things straight, for instance Barbarians speak in Hulk-Speech just because sometimes people just expect that and he would never intend it to be meta-commentary about disabilities or some such. Secondly, and following on from the first point, Rich has set out to show how giving sentient creatures 'alignment' and dragons stats for every stage of their lives were both by implication rather terrible ideas, it allowed people playing 'good' characters to slaughter endless people based merely on their probable alignment, not on their actions. Following from this, we know for a fact that while Durkon did probably decide to end his friendship with Malack over his vampirism, his reason to battle Malack to the death then and there was because of Durkon's inference that Malack was evil both in alignment and actions, i.e Malack wouldn't know that Belkar wasn't an innocent individual and Durkon knows that Malack doesn't know. The rather strong implication I get is that regardless of his condition, it was Malack's choice to be evil. So thirdly, looking at the conversion leading up to Redcloak's execution of Tsukiko, Redcloak and thus the subtext, is that the undead are just 'tools' whose job is to obey their creators through varying means of controlling them. Subtle manipulation for Xykon, Command Undead for the Wight (which btw probably will not work on Durkon, too high a level and easy to defend against). On the other hand, Redcloak while portrayed and acts cleverly and can be rather wise and far thinking also tend to make mistakes, overlooks details or is otherwise blinded by his own ego; his brother I believe, is implied to have made the accurate condemnation of just how lost RC has gone. So while both in context and in general, Redcloaks speech to Tsukiko is correct, it is also likely to not see the whole picture; the smart money is on he's wrong on how 'subtle' or effect his control of Xykon is, and likely Durkon's situation may illuminate just how he's wrong. My theory is that this is indeed "Durkon" but a Lawful Evil version, akine to him putting on the Helm of Opposite Alignment. He's changed but still is mostly himself, less likely to utilize restraint without Roy there to be his conscience, the key evidence I have is how he reacted to Nale trying to recruit him. Obviously I could be wrong and RC's speech was foreshadowing Durkon not being Durkon, but we'll find out I guess over the next book.
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Jan 20, 2014 00:47
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Raenir Salazar posted:Obviously I could be wrong and RC's speech was foreshadowing Durkon not being Durkon, but we'll find out I guess over the next book. I really do believe that this is going to eventually end up being the case.
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Jan 20, 2014 01:15
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TheAceOfLungs posted:No Discworld references?! I am disappointed in everyone. I was sorely tempted to post the "Neither Deluge Nor Ice Storm" line from Going Postal but it felt too much like "the reference is the joke" so I didn't. v  v
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Jan 20, 2014 01:20
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I certainly HOPE Durkon is a vicious monster now. It would cheapen his whole death scene if it really is Durkon with a mild personality change.
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Jan 20, 2014 01:46
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I see Durkula's soul as like one of those programs that keeps updating your Twitter or whatnot after you're gone, based on what you've said in the past. Except it wants to eat you.
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Jan 20, 2014 01:56
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Ursine Asylum posted:I was sorely tempted to post the "Neither Deluge Nor Ice Storm" line from Going Postal but it felt too much like "the reference is the joke" so I didn't. v My next cleric will now worship a god of "the glom of nigt".
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Jan 20, 2014 02:41
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Tenebrais posted:I see Durkula's soul as like one of those programs that keeps updating your Twitter or whatnot after you're gone, based on what you've said in the past. Except it wants to eat you. It doesn't want to eat you, you're already dead. It wants to eat all your friends and perhaps turn them into thralls to get a good power base to launch a bid for world conquest from.
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Jan 20, 2014 02:45
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There is no way that a major character is turned into a vampire and it is nothing but a smooth easy transition with no unexpected problems beyond a minor change in behavior and some extra superpowers.
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Jan 20, 2014 02:46
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Colonel Cool posted:I certainly HOPE Durkon is a vicious monster now. It would cheapen his whole death scene if it really is Durkon with a mild personality change. I'm not really guessing, but I could see some twists forming in Rich's mind.
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Jan 20, 2014 02:52
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ImpAtom posted:There is no way that a major character is turned into a vampire and it is nothing but a smooth easy transition with no unexpected problems beyond a minor change in behavior and some extra superpowers. As spiderdrake sorta alludes to I also don't expect it to just be 100% Not!Durkon whom they must stake because that's what Good characters do to Always Evil characters, which would conflict with say, the message with the whole thing between V and the Black Dragons. e: Here we go, Black Dragon's are ALWAYS chaotic evil, the same way a vampire is also Always Something Evil Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Jan 20, 2014 |
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Jan 20, 2014 03:42
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Raenir Salazar posted:As spiderdrake sorta alludes to I also don't expect it to just be 100% Not!Durkon whom they must stake because that's what Good characters do to Always Evil characters, which would conflict with say, the message with the whole thing between V and the Black Dragons. Yeah, but in 3.5 d&d "Always" only means 60%. The writers don't really give a poo poo about the universal meanings of words.
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Jan 20, 2014 04:42
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Zore posted:Yeah, but in 3.5 d&d "Always" only means 60%. No, it doesn't. You're thinking 'Often'. 'Always' explicitly says that any exceptions are unique or near-unique.
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Jan 20, 2014 04:51
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Zore posted:Yeah, but in 3.5 d&d "Always" only means 60%. No Always means 99% or all of them and they are born that way. Some like Dragons can change their alignment but start out. Usually means 51% of them or more and they are not born that way but have a slight pull towards that alignment combined with culture to make them fallow it. Hobgoblins are usually lawful evil for example meaning the majority of them are that alignment but you can find Hobs that have other alignments. Often means Less then 50% they are not born that way and it is purely a result of culture. Orcs are often chaotic evil meaning it's the most popular alignment but they don't have a majority, chaotic neutral is the 2nd most common orc alignment and they are close in number to the evil chaotic evil ones.
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Jan 20, 2014 05:25
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MonsterEnvy posted:No Always means 99% or all of them and they are born that way. Some like Dragons can change their alignment but start out. These debates and issues can all be solved with remembering the golden rule: Alignment is stupid and it's best for both readers and writers to not think about it too much.
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Jan 20, 2014 06:24
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Raenir Salazar posted:e: Here we go, Black Dragon's are ALWAYS chaotic evil, the same way a vampire is also Always Something Evil V's super-fuckup was that their descendants and relatives aren't ALWAYS, though.
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Jan 20, 2014 06:29
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Raenir Salazar posted:e: Here we go, Black Dragon's are ALWAYS chaotic evil, the same way a vampire is also Always Something Evil And DnD alignment thread derails are Always Something Awful.
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Jan 20, 2014 06:40
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Who What Now posted:Yes, exactly. And undead are "alive" with Negative Energy in the exact same way a body is alive with Positive Energy. A body with neither form of energy is just an inert corpse. So self flagellation is actually a good thing for mortals on the positive plane? I like that it sort of inverts what it means to die. Although it does open a can of worms about HP being health as opposed to luck or endurance or fate.
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Jan 20, 2014 06:58
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MikeJF posted:V's super-fuckup was that their descendants and relatives aren't ALWAYS, though. quote:And DnD alignment thread derails are Always Something Awful. I know, but the point is there's a textual link between Durkon and V's situations that may hold some insight. The Dragon was something that was 'always evil', including the adolescent and the latter was killed with no effort to negotiate a peaceful solution, because its "Colour coded for your convenience" and in Miko's words, its destruction was both just and necessary. The meaning is that under the pre-Darth V status quo it was probably accepted by both the readers and the characters that it was the duty of every good aligned adventurer to slaughter such creatures without any reservations or thought, similar to in SoD The Sapphire Guard slaughtering Redcloak's village (not that we know if any lost their powers, we assume some did). We now know that both in-universe (from the view point of the Heavens) and in Rich's mind, this is mindset morally wrong and evil, and at best bigoted. V's possible/probable downward fall from Neutral grace isn't just because of the genocide of 1/4 of all black dragons and their descendants, but also clearly the mindset that enabled that decision. I.E, that ALL black dragons were without exception, evil, and all of them related to the dragon in question were possibly willing to attack V and hir family, so their murder was in V's mind, justified, regardless of their actual intent or actions. That V murdered possible innocents is just the effect, the cause is the underlying assumptions about alignments, and assuming that V's gently caress up was just killing the descendants is confusing cause and effect. The conclusion to draw is that Rich is possibly also going to make a point that even Undead, as long as they are sentient also are damned by their choices not their alignment. Looking at other settings like Faerun is full of morally ambiguous and not entirely evil undead, some of them even have the favour of the Neutral Good goddess Mystra; it wouldn't be going against written fantasy norms entirely.
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Jan 20, 2014 07:00
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The less said about Mystra though the better.
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Jan 20, 2014 07:02
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Captain Oblivious posted:The less said about Mystra though the better. Slightly off topic, but that's the one who had some idiot try to replace her but instead hosed magic up so royally they went from 11th level spells as the max to 9th or something, right?
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Jan 20, 2014 07:09
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xanthan posted:Slightly off topic, but that's the one who had some idiot try to replace her but instead hosed magic up so royally they went from 11th level spells as the max to 9th or something, right? Yeah, by Karsus pretty much, though the old 2nd ed "10th" and "11th" spells are more or less just today's Epic spells. Though the 10th+ spellslots still exist for casting metamagic spells, which we saw V do with Quickened Disintegrate.
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Jan 20, 2014 07:22
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xanthan posted:Slightly off topic, but that's the one who had some idiot try to replace her but instead hosed magic up so royally they went from 11th level spells as the max to 9th or something, right? That's what happened the first time, yes. I think at this point Mystra has died and been replaced slightly more often than Jean Grey.
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Jan 20, 2014 08:54
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Who What Now posted:
I bet it feels loving fantastic though. Like OD-ing on puppies and blowjobs.
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Jan 20, 2014 09:01
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Eifert Posting posted:I bet it feels loving fantastic though. I've always pictured positive energy healing feeling incredibly creepy, especially if an evil cleric is doing it. Your flesh is growing and reknitting itself at an absurdly fast rate. It may not hurt, but it would probably turn your stomach the first few times. And that's before you start growing tumors from uncontrolled body growth.
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Jan 20, 2014 09:15
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fool_of_sound posted:'Always' explicitly says that any exceptions are unique or near-unique.
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Jan 20, 2014 09:19
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Tenebrais posted:I see Durkula's soul as like one of those programs that keeps updating your Twitter or whatnot after you're gone, based on what you've said in the past. Except it wants to eat you. So he's sort of like Durkon_ebooks.
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Jan 20, 2014 09:36
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Who What Now posted:My next cleric will now worship a god of "the glom of nigt". Don't arsk us about : Mrs. Cake or dogs with orange eyebrows.
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Jan 20, 2014 10:07
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xanthan posted:Slightly off topic, but that's the one who had some idiot try to replace her but instead hosed magic up so royally they went from 11th level spells as the max to 9th or something, right? Yes and now. She's not exactly the same; more like a resurrection of the goddess with a different personality. She used to be known as Mystryl (all vowels are Y's, she only needs a few apostrophes to have the perfect fantasy name) and now she's Mystra. Like everything FR, it's full of silliness and Mary Sues.
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Jan 20, 2014 11:48
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