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Who What Now posted:Now the novels try to work in that the characters have 4e powers and it's especially bumbling and awkward for the warrior types. No the novels trying to do anything with the structure of D&D's Game Rules is where it's bumbling and awkward. Turns out abstracted game design that are meant to be a rough guideline for describing narrative events don't translate 1-1 well into a Novel, regardless of what system/edition it is!
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Jan 21, 2014 06:10
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It's particularly funny because the way Salvitore describes combat is exactly what 4E was trying to accomplish.
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Jan 21, 2014 06:27
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Eifert Posting posted:It's particularly funny because the way Salvitore describes combat is exactly what 4E was trying to accomplish. I seem to remember a Salvatore saying something to that effect himself.
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Jan 21, 2014 07:18
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D1Sergo posted:I played a wizard once where I made it very clear that my scorching ray spells were being cast out of my eyes. Then I crafted goggles of scorching ray, just to drive the point home. I didn't have Fly yet, but I had boots of spider-climbing so I stuck to walls and fired my lasers. Also, mirror images, so I had a pack of wizards running up walls and firing lasers out of their eyes. Did you at any point utter "BEHOLD!" before casting Scorching Ray?
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Jan 21, 2014 16:58
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Bloodly posted:Did you at any point utter "BEHOLD!" before casting Scorching Ray? This actually threw me off, too -- I was thinking Cyclops at first, but what with him wanting the Fly spell, I think he's going for Superman. It actually seems kinda neat, and I wonder how doable it'd be. Use spells to mimic super-strength, speed, flight, and I guess stoneskin? It'd be cool to play a wizard focused on being the strongest, fastest melee warrior.
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Jan 21, 2014 17:28
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Eifert Posting posted:It's particularly funny because the way Salvitore describes combat is exactly what 4E was trying to accomplish. Drizzt always struck me as a kind of dual wielding Wushu thing before Wushu was cool.
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Jan 21, 2014 17:53
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Raenir Salazar posted:Drizzt always struck me as a kind of dual wielding Wushu thing before Wushu was cool. According to old interviews, drizzt was just a cool character concept he invented and pitched during a 5 minute phone conversation. The nuanced back story and naval gazing came much later. The stat blocks and unique feats just came about to shoehorn him into the game mechanics. Also, up until the last book, I always thought of his soliloquy segments as journals, but the book actually has someone overhear him. So he's literally hiding in a corner giving himself a speech... Just seems odd and overly emo. And during the reincarnation novel, you could almost picture Salvatore sitting there with a PHB and a shoehorn trying to force so many mechanistic parts of 4th edition and Next into the book that the story suffered. The preceeding novel was much better.
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Jan 21, 2014 18:12
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Drizzt Do'Urden and multilingual packaging together inspired me one of my greatest and most original character ever, Zak Do'Eken the whiny & weepy drow.
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Jan 21, 2014 18:41
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bigpolar posted:According to old interviews, drizzt was just a cool character concept he invented and pitched during a 5 minute phone conversation. The nuanced back story and naval gazing came much later. The stat blocks and unique feats just came about to shoehorn him into the game mechanics. This is amazing.
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Jan 21, 2014 21:04
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Eifert Posting posted:It's particularly funny because the way Salvitore describes combat is exactly what 4E was trying to accomplish. It's especially sad because Salvitore wasn't free of it. He had two monks, one of which became a secondary character/companion of Drizzt (Farfenfre or something) that had specific styles that would "push" and "pull" enemies into range of other peoples attacks. At one point there was an entire party that was basically a Leader, Controller, Defender, and pair of Strikers. And he wrote the fights kinda like a play-by-play of what such a party would look like. I mean it wasn't the worst thing I ever read, but I got the feeling that it wasn't Salvitore's choice to include those characters and he just had to make due.
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Jan 21, 2014 21:56
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ConfusedUs posted:I seem to remember a Salvatore saying something to that effect himself. Then why the hell did he write said 4E novel so awkwardly? They can't have possibly micromanaged him that hard.
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Jan 21, 2014 22:56
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Salvatore's problem is that he clearly falls somewhere in-between hack and wonderful, and occasionally hits both.
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Jan 22, 2014 00:48
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Can't he just be a wonderful hack?  By all accounts the dude is pretty self aware that he writes schlock and just has fun with it.
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Jan 22, 2014 01:08
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I liked this story he told of making a Drow Ranger for a DnD game once, and having the DM just stare at him and rip up the character sheet.
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Jan 22, 2014 01:09
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Lurdiak posted:I liked this story he told of making a Drow Ranger for a DnD game once, and having the DM just stare at him and rip up the character sheet. Any idea who he told it to, such that a transcript can be found? Turns out "RA salvatore drow ranger story" isn't too useful a google search.
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Jan 22, 2014 01:34
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If I had to guess it was probably a Dragon Magazine interview in the late 80s early 90s. drat he's been writing for a long time. -EDIT- I guess it's not true? From Wikipedia "Salvatore created Drizzt on the spur of the moment.[7] He was under pressure to create a sidekick for Wulfgar in the Icewind Dale series.[1] Salvatore had sent an early version of The Crystal Shard (what would become his first published novel) to TSR, and one day Kirchoff called him. She was on her way to a marketing meeting concerning the book, and informed him that they could not use one of the characters. He asked for time to think, but she was already late for the meeting. Off the top of his head, Salvatore said he had a Dark Elf. Kirchoff was skeptical, but Salvatore convinced her it would be fine because he was just a sidekick. She asked his name, and he replied Drizzt Do'Urden. She asked if he could spell it, and he said "not a chance".[1][8] Recalling Drizzt's creation in an interview, Salvatore said, "I don't know where it came from. I guess that Gary Gygax just did such an amazing job in creating the drow elves that something about them got stuck in the back of my head. Thank God!"[9] Although many readers have assumed that Drizzt is based on one of the many Dungeons & Dragons role-playing campaigns that the author has played, this is not the case. Salvatore's main influences were classical literature and works of J. R. R. Tolkien. "I like to think of Drizzt as a cross between Daryth from Darkwalker on Moonshae and Aragorn from The Lord of the Rings."[1] Salvatore calls Drizzt "the classic romantic hero—misunderstood, holding to a code of ideals even when the going gets tough, and getting no appreciation for it most of the time." Who What Now fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Jan 22, 2014 |
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Jan 22, 2014 03:22
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Who What Now posted:I guess it's not true? From Wikipedia No, you misunderstand. He made the character well after his novels were published and the trend of people playing Not-Drizzt Drow rangers had been established. Hence why the DM tore up the sheet and told him to make a real character.
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Jan 22, 2014 03:45
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bigpolar posted:Also, up until the last book, I always thought of his soliloquy segments as journals, but the book actually has someone overhear him. So he's literally hiding in a corner giving himself a speech... Just seems odd and overly emo. The impression I get is that he did all of these the last time he visited Bruener's Climb where he had a moment to think back on everything he's done and accomplished to find his center, and that he hasn't done this in the timeframe of 90% of adventures.
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Jan 22, 2014 06:41
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Raenir Salazar posted:The impression I get is that he did all of these the last time he visited Bruener's Climb where he had a moment to think back on everything he's done and accomplished to find his center, and that he hasn't done this in the timeframe of 90% of adventures. As I recall, the overhead segment wasn't on the climb, he was perched on a piling of a dock in luskan, the monk character was able to sneak up and listen. But I don't have the book in front of me and it's been a while.
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Jan 22, 2014 14:49
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Who What Now posted:It's especially sad because Salvitore wasn't free of it. He had two monks, one of which became a secondary character/companion of Drizzt (Farfenfre or something) that had specific styles that would "push" and "pull" enemies into range of other peoples attacks. At one point there was an entire party that was basically a Leader, Controller, Defender, and pair of Strikers. And he wrote the fights kinda like a play-by-play of what such a party would look like. And this was back in 2005, so whatever makes Salvatore pull stuff like this is entirely unbound by edition. (I wanted to forget all of this and now it's guaranteed to stick in my head for another decade, THANKS) Also, I wonder if Durkula's going to cause Belkar's death deliberately (maybe indirectly through deliberate healer-negligence) at some point, since he's the only member of the group that seems to have an issue with the whole vampirism thing.
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Jan 22, 2014 19:38
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Between that and the "last breath" thing in the prophecy Durkon turning Belkar into a thrall is signposted so heavily that there isn't even a really good way to pull a fast one and subvert expectations anymore. I can even see Roy's reaction already. "Well, he's an evil murderer, at least there's no big change and he's actually a lot more manageable like this."
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Jan 22, 2014 19:44
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As someone who doesn't know a thing about DND, why is the plan of "suck our blood voluntarily and heal us" such a bad thing? Also, if it's not really durkon in there, where did the personality come from?
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Jan 22, 2014 22:12
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Satisfaction Guaranteed posted:As someone who doesn't know a thing about DND, why is the plan of "suck our blood voluntarily and heal us" such a bad thing? Mechanically, there is no problem. Belkar's problem is more emotional; vampire Durkon directly represents his failure and uselessness and would prefer that he be destroyed so proof of that failure is not walking around.
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Jan 22, 2014 22:14
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Belkar's problem isn't emotional, it's practical. Belkar was present for Malack's "vampire-me isn't the same person as pre-vampire-me" speech, so he knows that Durkon is not only Evil but also not Durkon. That makes him not trustworthy, and if you're going to voluntarily let someone take your blood, they better be loving trustworthy.
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Jan 22, 2014 22:19
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That's kind of the big conundrum with a forced alignment change like vampirism: what constitutes where their alignment comes from? Does Durkon really have no control over how he acts now, and is that really Durkon? According to D&D rules its not so is Durkula an construct made up of the soul of Durkon and Durkon's personality is a part of that construction? Frankly its all pretty confusing to me, I prefer simple rules like "the vampire is the same except with an unending hunger that drives them inevitably insane over the centuries of their immortal lives".
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Jan 22, 2014 22:22
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D1Sergo posted:That's kind of the big conundrum with a forced alignment change like vampirism: what constitutes where their alignment comes from? Does Durkon really have no control over how he acts now, and is that really Durkon? According to D&D rules its not so is Durkula an construct made up of the soul of Durkon and Durkon's personality is a part of that construction? It's best to think of a vampire as an alien force that presents a fascimile of the man that once was, in these terms. A negative energy construct that uses who you were as a very broad foundation for constructing its own identity. The real you is not only dead but unable to move on to the afterlife. And that's what makes vampirism super, SUPER hosed up.
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Jan 22, 2014 22:25
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Satisfaction Guaranteed posted:Also, if it's not really durkon in there, where did the personality come from? Think of the soul (in D&D) like a power source and backup storage for a mind. The evolving condition of the physical mind (the brain and such), in a normal creature, results in corresponding evolution of an attached soul, which becomes the entirety of one's being after death (the destruction of the physical embodiment of the mind). Creating a vampire diverges this normally-paired evolution, such that Durkon's body and Durkon's soul are becoming different creatures (like how Malack is no longer the shaman he once was). The vampire mind has no backup (everything is lost on true destruction) and is powered by evil magic instead. In short, his brain.
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Jan 22, 2014 22:29
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 NEW STRIP!
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Jan 22, 2014 22:31
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Glory of Arioch posted:Mechanically, there is no problem. Belkar's problem is more emotional; vampire Durkon directly represents his failure and uselessness and would prefer that he be destroyed so proof of that failure is not walking around. I figured a big part of it was also that a big part of how Belkar identifies people is their smell, like how he spotted Nale disguised as Elan, and Durkula probably has a significantly different and off putting odor.
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Jan 22, 2014 22:34
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D1Sergo posted:According to D&D rules its not so is Durkula an construct made up of the soul of Durkon and Durkon's personality is a part of that construction? It's an evil entity in control of his body with access to his memories, but it's not Durkon. (It's also not "close enough". Sorry, Roy.) Those memories are telling it that unless this party succeeds in defeating Xykon and defending the Gates, the world comes to an end, which is why... DontMockMySmock posted:Belkar's problem isn't emotional, it's practical. Belkar was present for Malack's "vampire-me isn't the same person as pre-vampire-me" speech, so he knows that Durkon is not only Evil but also not Durkon. That makes him not trustworthy, and if you're going to voluntarily let someone take your blood, they better be loving trustworthy. The party can trust him, like many Evil people, exactly as long as he needs the party. The instant Xykon goes down, Durkula is no longer on their side. (see the lower left corner of comic #908) EDIT: Also, is that a NEW COM- f,b...
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Jan 22, 2014 22:36
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To be fair, knocking first would have probably gotten them an arrow to the chest regardless.
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Jan 22, 2014 22:37
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Hopefully Ian Starshine, revolutionary, is just a way to wrap up that dude's story and not a plotline we're going to follow.
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Jan 22, 2014 22:38
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That's perfect. Elan gets his happy ending by having Tarquin go down without having to be directly involved in the destruction of Tarquin's empire or fight his father, and Tarquin gets an ignominious ending stemming from screwing over a few inconsequential NPCs instead of a glorious bequeathment to his son.
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Jan 22, 2014 22:38
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Oh, thank goodness, he isn't going on the boat.
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Jan 22, 2014 22:39
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Man the Order just leave small armies trying to end the local evil empire everywhere they go.
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Jan 22, 2014 22:39
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Moving right along, I guess.
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Jan 22, 2014 22:42
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My Lovely Horse posted:Man the Order just leave small armies trying to end the local evil empire everywhere they go. That's pretty much the default state of an evil empire.
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Jan 22, 2014 22:43
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Drakyn posted:Also, I wonder if Durkula's going to cause Belkar's death deliberately (maybe indirectly through deliberate healer-negligence) at some point, since he's the only member of the group that seems to have an issue with the whole vampirism thing. It'll be deliberate. The end of the next book is going to be the lowest point for the Order so I'm expecting Durkon to betray everybody at the gate, reveal that he's been playing them the entire time, and then murder Belkar as a final twist of the knife. Whelp, I guess there's another adventuring party out there to handle Tarquin now.
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Jan 22, 2014 22:44
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My Lovely Horse posted:Man the Order just leave small armies trying to end the local evil empire everywhere they go. Maybe, some day, one of them will succeed! Like it never does when I play Risk.
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Jan 22, 2014 22:44
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rocketrobot posted:Moving right along, I guess. Sometimes, it's easy to tell which comics Rich does just to head-off obsessives nit-picking about loose ends.
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Jan 22, 2014 22:45
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