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BottledBodhisvata posted:I guess. The game itself is fairly juvenile, but all Devil May Cry games are juvenile, that's sort of the point. The more seriously the games take themselves, the worse they get--see Devil May Cry 2, 4. The previous games were juvenile in good ways - they were basically adolescent imagination games were you played a sword-swinging pistol-shooting kung-fu badass who treated the Apocalypse like the recess bell just rang. On the other hand, presenting a character as fearful and helpless, regardless of prior context, giving it a loving sniper-rifle abortion, and then mostly shrugging it off because eh, it was a Video Game Bad Guy is in such poor taste that I can't even think of a decent comparison, even if I plumbed Rockstar's worst depths (though that one mission from GTAV is at least a close second). If any kid had that fantasy, it would be the obese unshaven one who smells vaguely of old laundry and stares always, unblinkingly, at girls' hair. The combat is tepid, the platforming loving drags (if you liked DmC's environment navigation then maybe try Alice Madness Returns, they're cut from the same mold), and it rams a nauseating stream of no-effort positive reinforcement down your throat when it's not embarrassing itself with its faux-punk attempts to be cool. Those are all expected from middling-to-bad games. That one scene, though, sticks out in peoples' minds because it's infantile and cruel even by video game standards, and you get the impression that the developers had no idea it would come off that way. Oxxidation fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Jan 21, 2014 |
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Jan 21, 2014 18:29
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BottledBodhisvata posted:To be fair, I watch a lot of horror films and grindhouse gorefests, so it's made me a bit jaded, but I literally beat mother and baby within an inch of their lives with a loving sword like five minutes before hand. It's only a dramatic moment in the sense that it demonstrates that Virgil just gives No Fucks. I found it amusing, because it's so crass and jarring...and they pretty much never bring it up again, except for the "Wet Chunks". BottledBodhisvata posted:I guess. The game itself is fairly juvenile, but all Devil May Cry games are juvenile, that's sort of the point. The more seriously the games take themselves, the worse they get--see Devil May Cry 2, 4. Part of the issue with DmC being rather juvenile, is the fact that Ninja Theory were (supposedly) meant to be rasing the story-telling bar, somewhat...and the end result being that it has the most poorly told story out of the whole bunch. And when the previous standard was basically B-movie level, not even managing to surpass that is pretty awful. The only issue I take with that scene in particular, is that tonally, it's all over the place. Phinneas feels like a part of something left over from development, that they never elaborated on. Or maybe he was meant to be more important in an earlier draft or something. It's kinda odd, really.
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Jan 21, 2014 18:30
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BottledBodhisvata posted:I guess. The game itself is fairly juvenile, but all Devil May Cry games are juvenile, that's sort of the point. The more seriously the games take themselves, the worse they get--see Devil May Cry 2, 4. You're gonnna have to explain to me how DMC4, the one with the best and deepest combat system in the series, is on the same level with 2 and how in the hell it's worse than DmC, the one with the shallowest.
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Jan 21, 2014 18:35
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S-Alpha posted:You're gonnna have to explain to me how DMC4, the one with the best and deepest combat system in the series, is on the same level with 2 and how in the hell it's worse than DmC, the one with the shallowest. Because it took itself too seriously, I guess. You know, with its one character who can perform a never-ending air-guitar taunt and has a literal motorcycle engine strapped to his sword, despite being the game's straight man. Oxxidation fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Jan 21, 2014 |
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Jan 21, 2014 18:38
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S-Alpha posted:You're gonnna have to explain to me how DMC4, the one with the best and deepest combat system in the series, is on the same level with 2 and how in the hell it's worse than DmC, the one with the shallowest. DMC2 isn't serious its just tedious. It also has enemies with no tell that they're going to attack who swarm you and oh gently caress you DMC2 why are you full of interesting ideas poorly executed?
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Jan 21, 2014 18:38
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Oxxidation posted:Because it took itself too seriously, I guess. Yup. DMC4 is self serious alright. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK6UaPnRYcc
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Jan 21, 2014 18:44
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^^^ At least post Summon and Kill as well. That poo poo is the best. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpME4riPI1k 100% Taking Itself Seriously BottledBodhisvata posted:I guess. The game itself is fairly juvenile, but all Devil May Cry games are juvenile, that's sort of the point. The more seriously the games take themselves, the worse they get--see Devil May Cry 2, 4. Dunno what version of 4 you played but the only one taking poo poo seriously in that is Nero and the villains. Dante, and you the player, realized they're all kind of wound a bit too tight and he spends the first half of the game just kind of loving with everyone before taking over and making it to goofball power hour. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Jan 21, 2014 |
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Jan 21, 2014 18:47
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DmC does get a unfair shake sometimes, but that's because you simply cannot divorce it from its predecessors. As a stand alone game it would have come and gone and maybe become a cult favorite. The game has too many flaws in the combat system to ever rise above its mediocre plot and boring narrative.
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Jan 21, 2014 18:49
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Barudak posted:DMC2 isn't serious its just tedious. It also has enemies with no tell that they're going to attack who swarm you and oh gently caress you DMC2 why are you full of interesting ideas poorly executed? I find DMC2 facinating. It's clear that they wanted to improve on some parts of DMC1, and in some areas they do; the camera, more acrobatic moves, customisable DT, a playable secondary character, bloody palace, some of the bosses are pretty cool looking and have a nice variety of move-sets, etc. Even the story concept is workable; Evil businessman/warlock wants to open a hellgate to gain power from a demon-god. Dante and Lucia must stop him! And then the developers just poo poo the bed, and smear it all over the duvet. Let's have enemies with no tells, wide open areas with nothing to do, three identical melee weapons, bosses that can only be harmed by guns, brown city, brown sewers, brown city again, dark-green city, brown metropolis, brown cavern, etc. Let's get rid of taunt too. Let's have bosses that will attack from off camera with no warning, let's skimp on all the story parts and salavage togther something that barely makes any cohesive sense. Oh, and let's not tell Kamiya we're making a sequel until its too late. 
Pesky Splinter fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Jan 21, 2014 |
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Jan 21, 2014 18:50
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I also recently beat DmC. I don't like the visuals, a lot of the colors run together. And seriously gently caress the platforming.
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Jan 21, 2014 18:52
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Pesky Splinter posted:I find DMC2 facinating. It's clear that they wanted to improve on some parts of DMC1, and in some areas they do; the camera, more acrobatic moves, customisable DT, a playable secondary character, bloody palace, some of the bosses are pretty cool looking and have a nice variety of move-sets, etc. Even the story concept is workable; Evil businessman/warlock wants to open a hellgate to gain power from a demon-god. Dante and Lucia must stop him! Don't forget having an improved dodge and a lot of the moves that would become part of the Gunslinger toolset being difficult to pull of or functionally unneeded in DMC2. Then you get to "brown underground corridor #12" and collect "move-set identical sword #3" before enjoying yet another goddamn bossfight where guns are the only option for dealing damage and you lose all interest in the game. Seriously, who thought giving you 3 identical swords except one just deals the most damage was a sensible or interesting decision. At least its the game that named Dante's sword.
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Jan 21, 2014 18:54
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Pasteurized Milk posted:I also recently beat DmC. I don't like the visuals, a lot of the colors run together. The Platforming I can't complain about since 90% of it is "Right Trigger+Square => Left Trigger+Square. Repeat 10 times."
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Jan 21, 2014 18:54
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DmC is unarguably many times better than DMC2 and I can't see any argument against that. I'd play DmC again maybe. I couldn't even finish DMC2 on the HD collection. It did give us Bloody Palace though.
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Jan 21, 2014 18:57
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Barudak posted:Seriously, who thought giving you 3 identical swords except one just deals the most damage was a sensible or interesting decision. At least its the game that named Dante's sword. The only saving grace of DMC2 it seems, is what it contributed to the better, later installments in the series. ImpAtom posted:DmC is unarguably many times better than DMC2 and I can't see any argument against that. I'd play DmC again maybe. I couldn't even finish DMC2 on the HD collection. Yeah, for its many flaws, DmC is a better game than DMC2. DMC2 is a tedious, tedious slog. While the DmC bosses may be easy and unimgainative as gently caress, they're not "hold guns for twenty minutes". Same for the enemies, they may be easy as piss, and have tells that go on for way too long, but I'd rather that then the enemy pulling off a move I have zero indication of. Pesky Splinter fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Jan 21, 2014 |
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Jan 21, 2014 18:57
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Pesky Splinter posted:The only saving grace of DMC2 it seems, is what it contributed to the better, later installments in the series. Pretty much. Customizable DT never showed up again and starting with at least Double Jump is apparently too awesome to give to players when they start and that bums me out. Not ever having Aquatic fights again is the highlight of the post DMC2 games, though. I actually really liked the boss-fight in the post-infestation CEO's Office where the room rotates around so you're fighting on the walls, floor, cieling, etc. It was neat for the 35 seconds that fight lasts before you Vendetta (was that the strong sword?) him in the face to death. Edit: Also, you probably shouldn't re-use a boss from the first DMC whole-sale as a midboss and not have any interaction between him and the protagonist. It was such a missed opportunity.
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Jan 21, 2014 19:02
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:The Platforming I can't complain about since 90% of it is "Right Trigger+Square => Left Trigger+Square. Repeat 10 times." That's exactly why I'd complain about it. It was a boring time-waster in a game that was 80% linear. Then they had secret rooms that were timed platforming sequences. Yaaaaaay.
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Jan 21, 2014 19:02
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Barudak posted:Pretty much. Customizable DT never showed up again and starting with at least Double Jump is apparently too awesome to give to players when they start and that bums me out. Not ever having Aquatic fights again is the highlight of the post DMC2 games, though. That loving fish is, without hyperbole, one of the worst bosses I have encountered in a game, ever. Zero aquatic levels post-DMC2, was the smartest loving thing they ever did. There's quite a few bosses I like in DMC2 - the skyscraper boss was visually interesting, and pretty fun to fight, Bolverk had a nice range of attacks and it felt similar to a Nero Angelo fight (though Bolverk has the aformentioned off-camera, zero tells bullshit going on), the Despair Embodied would have been better if there was more of a chance to melee it, but it still felt pretty enjoyable.
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Jan 21, 2014 19:10
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Dunno what version of 4 you played but the only one taking poo poo seriously in that is Nero and the villains. Dante, and you the player, realized they're all kind of wound a bit too tight and he spends the first half of the game just kind of loving with everyone before taking over and making it to goofball power hour. Maybe that's the problem--I stopped playing the game around the point where you stop being Nero and switch over to Dante, so I'd largely just had...all of what you described. It was also a long while ago that I played the game, so that may factor in as well. Then I played Bayonetta and Devil may what who loving cares about anything else ImpAtom posted:DMC1 and DMC3 both had dodging as part of their basic jump movement as well as the dodge-roll. Angel weapons are underpowered by design, though. They're useful for juggling and breaking up enemy attacks, and they work fantastically for that. In the battles against the Rage Beasts the best strategy is to use Aquilus' Circle charge attack to stunlock the blue one while you axe or punch the red beast to death, then swap over. The angel hookshot weapon is also really useful for escaping enemies until you get the air-dash. As for the enemies, eh. DMC has had pretty spotty enemy design throughout, and at least they all served fairly basic gameplay purposes. I found Titans pretty challenging and I found the enemy diversity to be acceptable, if not particularly amazing. I agree that the Devil Trigger felt very tacked on, and the best boss fight was the aforementioned battle against Mundus's Spawn or the very, very final boss fight in terms of gameplay. I will admit that the bosses were all fairly lackluster, but the game ended strongly at the least. BottledBodhisvata fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Jan 21, 2014 |
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Jan 21, 2014 19:15
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Pesky Splinter posted:There's quite a few bosses I like in DMC2 - the skyscraper boss was visually interesting, and pretty fun to fight, Bolverk had a nice range of attacks and it felt similar to a Nero Angelo fight (though Bolverk has the aformentioned off-camera, zero tells bullshit going on), the Despair Embodied would have been better if there was more of a chance to melee it, but it still felt pretty enjoyable. Bolverk should have been a lot more fun to fight but they shove you in these awful tiny arenas and theres no indication of when he's going to attack or not. Its really frustrating in the final one with his two dogs who also have no tell attacks with no pattern (at least to me, it seems random how many times they attack and where they go) and in an arena where you can get trapped in a corner. That goddamn hydra boss and the fish are like someone took notes on how to construct the worst bosses ever designed. Tri-Magika or whatever its name was wins special bonus points with me for being tediouser then hell and basically being almost a railshooter except more boring. Oh god and the special missions only giving you prizes on every other one. And they're all without variation kill rooms.
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Jan 21, 2014 19:19
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BottledBodhisvata posted:...the best boss fight was the aforementioned battle against Mundus's Spawn or the very, very final boss fight in terms of gameplay. I will admit that the bosses were all fairly lackluster, but the game ended strongly at the least. I'm gonna disagree on that one. The Vergil fight felt like that really wanted to copy off DMC3, but didn't have any of the know-how to make it legitimately challenging. Like, in DMC3 Vegil is vulnerable to all your attacks, though he will attempt to break them off if you carry on for too long, he's constantly on the chase, or he's following up attacks with summoned sword varients. In DmC, they basically went "NO gently caress YOU! NOT ATTACKING TIL WE SAY SO!" and made him block everything, until after he executed a move. Limited the summon swords to just one varient, had the bright idea of giving him bright blue projectile attacks, on a bright blue background, and then put cutscenes in after taking every 1/5th of his lifebar, so you didn't obliterate him within 30 seconds. From a gameplay and story perspective, I found it to be very unsatisfying. Even more so when you consider that a game released seven years prior had both much tighter combat, and a more satisfying story conclusion. Pesky Splinter fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Jan 21, 2014 |
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Jan 21, 2014 19:38
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BottledBodhisvata posted:the best boss fight was the aforementioned battle against Mundus's Spawn We played very very different games. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA3U5vas7KA
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Jan 21, 2014 19:40
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:^^^ At least post Summon and Kill as well. That poo poo is the best. I was pretty wary of DMC4 because the trailers made it look like a super-serious melodrama (which Nero is trying really hard to turn it into), but when I started the game with fighting Dante and he mockingly "revved" his own sword I knew I was in for a treat.
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Jan 21, 2014 19:40
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I wish I was at my computer so I could type up all of the things I love about DMC4 and Nero as a completely different character from Dante so I'm just gonna mention one thing real quick. While fighting Alto Angelos you can buster them and do a German suplex into a dropkick. If you buster them in them air, you can drop those fuckers on their head, dropkick them in the face, and if it kills you get to witness all the armor literally fall apart as souls come spewing out of it. If you do it in Devil trigger Nero literally does Zangief's Ultimate Atomic Buster which he finishes off the pile driver finisher by shouting "ROCK YOU!" DMC4 is art
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Jan 21, 2014 19:43
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Pesky Splinter posted:I'm gonna disagree on that one. The Vergil fight felt like that really wanted to copy off DMC3, but didn't have any of the know-how to make it legitimately challenging. Like, in DMC3 Vegil is vulnerable to all your attacks, though he will attempt to break them off if you carry on for too long, he's constantly on the chase, or he's following up attacks with summoned sword varients. Yeah, this. One post made a pretty good argument that DMC3's Vergil was basically the Terminator during his every boss encounter, constantly closing distance, pushing you back, and ripping you apart whenever he saw an opening. DmC's Vergil is a cowardly keep-away type, which is a snore to fight.
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Jan 21, 2014 19:44
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ImpAtom posted:We played very very different games. That level just made me wish I was playing zone mode in Wipeout HD.
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Jan 21, 2014 19:45
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BottledBodhisvata posted:
That boss is a boring, repetitive slog. It turned the game from a solid "B" into a "C" in my opinion. The following scene turned it into a bad joke. Not that any of the bosses were good at all. The Fox News boss was kind of amusing I guess, but that was in no way thanks to the mechanics of the fight. The huge robot enemies and the warping enemies were also boring and frustrating to fight.
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Jan 21, 2014 19:45
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Oxxidation posted:Yeah, this. One post made a pretty good argument that DMC3's Vergil was basically the Terminator during his every boss encounter, constantly closing distance, pushing you back, and ripping you apart whenever he saw an opening. DmC's Vergil is a cowardly keep-away type, which is a snore to fight. That's a pretty good analogy. The other thing that's great about DMC3Vergil, is that in the few moments when he's not attacking, he'll taunt you. The fucker!   DmC Vergil, just spazzes awkwardly around Dante. When he doesn't freeze due to shoddy programming, that is.
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Jan 21, 2014 19:49
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ImpAtom posted:We played very very different games. O_O Well, I put a lot more effort into that fight than I needed to. Pesky Splinter posted:I'm gonna disagree on that one. The Vergil fight felt like that really wanted to copy off DMC3, but didn't have any of the know-how to make it legitimately challenging. Like, in DMC3 Vegil is vulnerable to all your attacks, though he will attempt to break them off if you carry on for too long, he's constantly on the chase, or he's following up attacks with summoned sword varients. I don't disagree with any of this, especially in regards to the last boss of DMC3 (which is probably one of the best video game boss battles ever). But for DmC itself, its final fight was far and above one of the better ones to fight. The story in DMC3 has some very strong scenes in places, but it's not really particularly engaging beyond that. Really, I was straight up rooting for Virgil in that one. DmC at least had a story that managed to be coherent and present an interesting world without being too self-indulgent. But SERIOUSLY what the gently caress was with Phinneas he just loving VANISHES was he...was he supposed to be a thing? What was that? Who was that?
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Jan 21, 2014 19:51
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BottledBodhisvata posted:Angel weapons are underpowered by design, though. They're useful for juggling and breaking up enemy attacks, and they work fantastically for that. Two things that were basically never ever needed because the Demon weapons loving WRECKED everything so loving fast you only needed angel weapons when the game explicitly forced you to use them. Weapon Specific enemies were the dumbest loving poo poo and completely opposed to the core gameplay behind DMC. BottledBodhisvata posted:DmC at least had a story that managed to be coherent and present an interesting world without being too self-indulgent. Ah yes, the interesting world of Fat Bald Demon's dry humping piles of flesh and evilly telling her how he was going to control the World with DEBT while also ripping off ideas from good movies but doing them 1000x more juveniley. Also Squirrel Semen. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Jan 21, 2014 |
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Jan 21, 2014 19:52
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Yeah, the problem with the angel weapons is that there is mechanically no need to have fast juggling weapons. The combo meter is based off damage dealt with some variation reward. So the angel weapons are mechically one of the worst for getting SSS Style rankings. The end-of-level reward grades you on time to finish the level. Again, this means killing enemies quickly (with the Demon Weapons) is the optimal way to go, Dangerous enemies often can't be juggled. Dreamwalkers break out of air attacks and the bigger enemies are generally immune to it. So the most dangerous enemies in the game are best fought with Demon Weapons The weakest enemies in the game, who can be juggled, are also best fought with demon weapons because it can kill a lot of them quickly instead of leaving you more vulnerable to getting smacked by accident or whatever. The angel weapons have better crowd control but when you can utterly obliterate large crowds of weak enemies with one or two attacks you don't need crowd control. Bosses, of course, have vulnerable periods where you want to do the most damage as you can in one attack. Demon weapons again! (Prop was useful for parrying their attacks at least.) It also made the Angel-specific enemies the worst in the game simply because they took longer to kill because you did so much less damage unless you devil triggered them, while not actually being any more of a threat. The evil witch enemy was probably the most interesting of the lot but even that was just 'equip the scythe, use prop." ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Jan 21, 2014 |
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Jan 21, 2014 19:55
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I just used the throw aquila move.
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Jan 21, 2014 19:59
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Pasteurized Milk posted:I just used the throw aquila move. That also works. Basically the launcher move for either angel weapon is the only useful thing they have.
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Jan 21, 2014 20:00
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Throwing Aquila seemed like the only way angel moves were ever effective to me because you could just keep them up for five million years then attack them while it's happening, but even that is way too weak.
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Jan 21, 2014 20:01
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ImpAtom posted:Yeah, the problem with the angel weapons is that there is mechanically no need to have fast juggling weapons. I dunno, I tended to switch it up pretty often. I really liked the upgraded scythe to deal with witches and rage beasts, and if I could manage to chain a dreamrunner and spin juggle him before switching to the fists and slamming him to the ground, I felt nice and warm inside.
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Jan 21, 2014 20:01
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The Vergil fight in DmC was just boring, which I think could be extended to the entire game. It wasn't terrible, it wasn't amazing, it was just okay. Just okay is a lovely follow up to bug Shakespeare. I also liked how you can't end the fight without going into Devil Trigger for the final attack and the game never gives you a hint that's how you complete the fight. Not one boss before that had that gimmick.
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Jan 21, 2014 20:02
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BottledBodhisvata posted:I dunno, I tended to switch it up pretty often. I really liked the upgraded scythe to deal with witches and rage beasts, and if I could manage to chain a dreamrunner and spin juggle him before switching to the fists and slamming him to the ground, I felt nice and warm inside. Rage Beasts have a lot of HP and get aggressive when their partner is killed so using the angel weapons on them is actually counterproductive. You can do it certainly because DmC is a fairly easy game but it is mechanically suboptimal. Likewise, witches have a short vulnerability period once you shatter their shield so using demon weapons on them then is a far more effective method of fighting them. I mean you can totally play the game any way you want. It's just, to me, it's disappointing that there's no reason to vary your abilities and in many cases it is actively counterproductive. Azubah posted:I also liked how you can't end the fight without going into Devil Trigger for the final attack and the game never gives you a hint that's how you complete the fight. Not one boss before that had that gimmick. It does, actually. When Spirit Virgil is defending him, attacking earns you DT. It's a pretty clear hint you need to use it.
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Jan 21, 2014 20:05
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BottledBodhisvata posted:DmC at least had a story that managed to be coherent and present an interesting world without being too self-indulgent. Different strokes, I found the story to be pretty unfocused. On the one hand it's trying to be this social commentary/satire/statement about corporatism, the current world-wide banking crisis, the evils of commercialism, and how the media structures and manipulates narrative to suit their own agenda, the sub-culture of internet vigilantism...and on the other it's trying to be this story about a man coming to terms with who, and what he is, and his new-found brother, while also trying to keep some of the goofy, campy poo poo from the old games, and blindly rehashing the stories of DMC1 and 3, while also plagerising They Live and Futurama, while also including weird vignettes and characters that don't mesh with anything else. If it's a satire, then they don't actually comment on anything. They just use the imagery. Case in point, Vergil's little club have V for Vendetta masks, and do Anonymous style messages...and the game makes zero comment on it. Or that hilariously out of place twitter-fest at the end. And that's retarded because they game contradicts the message they're trying to say. I heard a theory that Phinneas was meant to be reboot Sparda at one point, not that the game supports this theory. But yeah, he kinda shows up, spouts exposistion, ham-fisted foreshadowing and then vanishes, never to appear again. I wonder if NT just had a list of stock archetypes they felt they needed, and thought, "Yep, this'll do, just plonk him here." Pesky Splinter fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Jan 21, 2014 |
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Jan 21, 2014 20:07
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ImpAtom posted:It does, actually. When Spirit Virgil is defending him, attacking earns you DT. It's a pretty clear hint you need to use it. I thought I was supposed to kill Spirit Vergil with my Devil Trigger because I'm not smart.
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Jan 21, 2014 20:09
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Fight evil big corporations by downloading the Eye of Dante: The official app for They Live! On iPhone now!
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Jan 21, 2014 20:10
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| # ? Apr 24, 2024 07:20 |
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Pasteurized Milk posted:I thought I was supposed to kill Spirit Vergil with my Devil Trigger because I'm not smart. Spirit Virgil is supposed to vanish when you DT.  (I say this because the first time I did it, he didn't vanish for me.)
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Jan 21, 2014 20:11
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