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Gyshall
Feb 24, 2009

Had a couple of drinks.
Saw a couple of things.

rope kid posted:

Currently, items and spells do not stack with each other. The exception to this are rings, because they are Special and Fancy. Potions do stack with other effects, but consuming a potion terminates ongoing effects from a potion currently in effect.

e: In the character sheet, we will show suppressed effects in italics so you can see what is being stomped by other items/spells.

Awesome. Is this to prevent potion spam/superbuffing? One thing that ~ makes me mad ~ in video games is when potions are so good that they are too good - in Skyrim, for example, just opening your menu and chugging 9 potions is enough to make anyone a god.

Bonus points if you guys do some sort of Toxicity system (maybe just for the harder difficulties?) like The Witcher etc.

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rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.

Overminty posted:

Out of curiosity how do you determine which items' bonuses are used when you have more than one providing the same bonus?
Technically, effects with equal bonuses are all maintained and tracked. I'm not sure which one we say has precedence. It shouldn't really matter since the math is the same either way. However, if one of the bonuses is canceled or just runs out of duration, the other one(s) will take over.

rope kid fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Jan 28, 2014

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.

Gyshall posted:

Awesome. Is this to prevent potion spam/superbuffing?
Potion spam should be less of an issue since you will play an animation to consume one (which can be interrupted, like other actions -- but does not provoke an attack as it does in D&D). It does allow you to have one pre-buff (and I do plan to tune potions to be fairly strong), but if you just keep slamming potions one after another, you're canceling the ones that came before with no real benefit.

CottonWolf
Jul 20, 2012

Good ideas generator

Gyshall posted:

Awesome. Is this to prevent potion spam/superbuffing? One thing that ~ makes me mad ~ in video games is when potions are so good that they are too good - in Skyrim, for example, just opening your menu and chugging 9 potions is enough to make anyone a god.

But as a counterpoint, in Morrowind you could make potions that made you progressively better at making potions, until you could make a potion that literally allowed you to kill a god without any of the correct, supposedly plot mandated, equipment. That potion system was broken in the best possible way.

Gyshall
Feb 24, 2009

Had a couple of drinks.
Saw a couple of things.

rope kid posted:

Potion spam should be less of an issue since you will play an animation to consume one (which can be interrupted, like other actions -- but does not provoke an attack as it does in D&D). It does allow you to have one pre-buff (and I do plan to tune potions to be fairly strong), but if you just keep slamming potions one after another, you're canceling the ones that came before with no real benefit.

Very cool - that is the type of system I prefer (not that that matters much.)

I've always liked the idea of having a few long term type of potion effects specifically for buffing that last 20+ game minutes.

Basically, you'd buy a "flask" container item that could be filled with a single use buff that would have to be refilled after use. It is both a gold sink and a buffing method for ~~~ power gamerz ~~~ and the like.

Then you have the standard consumable potions for health/whatever, or other short duration potions.

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011
Update!
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/65025-update-71-the-heavy-hitters-rogues-and-rangers/

Rogues look a hell of a lot of fun, especially with that Deathblows ability. Plus, the way crits are decided, a bonus to hit and damage at the expense of defense is going to be nice, especially since they have blinding strike as an ability too. Rangers seem like putting your animal companion in danger is the best way to really dish out the damage, but then you're also risking more too since the heal pools are shared. Very nice support abilities too. I like it. If a ranger and their companion are both caught by a fireball, they both take damage, right? Effectively doubling the fireball's damage? Presumably that's why they have the "defensive bond" ability, but it still means that to get the most out of your ranger/companion, you want them far away from each other, if possible, while still acting as interference.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

The rogue sounds very interesting, especially the ability to break off engagements and get out of attack range if there is clear space available. Conceptually I like the ranger but I don't think I'd be able to play as one, too much reliance on the animal companion would make me feel like a jerk (in a computer game!)

Kurtofan
Feb 16, 2011

hon hon hon
I heard some bad things about the original campaign of Neverwinter Nights 2 but so far I like it, well mostly the companions.
I don't know if this came up somewhere but is there going to be a similar system of banter and reactivity from the companions? I really like it when they butt in and start having arguments about what should be done in a given situation, or simply give their impressions.

I've seen this in several rpgs but I feel like it's done particularly well in NW2.

Kurtofan fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Jan 29, 2014

unlimited shrimp
Aug 30, 2008

Ravenfood posted:

Update!
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/65025-update-71-the-heavy-hitters-rogues-and-rangers/

Rogues look a hell of a lot of fun, especially with that Deathblows ability. Plus, the way crits are decided, a bonus to hit and damage at the expense of defense is going to be nice, especially since they have blinding strike as an ability too. Rangers seem like putting your animal companion in danger is the best way to really dish out the damage, but then you're also risking more too since the heal pools are shared. Very nice support abilities too. I like it. If a ranger and their companion are both caught by a fireball, they both take damage, right? Effectively doubling the fireball's damage? Presumably that's why they have the "defensive bond" ability, but it still means that to get the most out of your ranger/companion, you want them far away from each other, if possible, while still acting as interference.
I can't wait for rangers to be taken in a new direction by a creative company because I'm pretty goddamned tired of the World of Warcraft ranger archetype (which I guess is based on Drizzt anyhow).

Two things I irrationally hate: polymorphing (a la druids) and ranged combat w/pet tanking.

Mymla
Aug 12, 2010
I think it'd be cool if Rangers' animal companions shared health but not stamina, or shared a reduced amount of stamina damage. That way, one of the pair could save the other when it goes down. Could even give the one that's still standing a damage bonus against whatever took down their mate.

quote:

Coordinated Positioning (Active) - You are able to instantly switch positions with one target within 1m. If this is an ally, the switch is automatic. If it is an enemy, the maneuver is an attack against its Reflexes (only succeeds on a Hit or Crit). The switch is immediate and cancels Engagement (if any) on the rogue. 2/encounter.
What happens when abilities like this one crit? Same as a hit? Applies some sort of debuff to the target?

Kurtofan posted:

I heard some bad things about the original campaign of Neverwinter Nights 2 but so far I like it, well mostly the companions.
I'm confused by this, because I pretty much like everything about NWN2 except for the companions. I mean, they aren't offensively bad or anything but they certainly aren't good either. Just... boring mediocrity at best most of the time.

Dr. Demon
Jan 2, 2007

Everybody out of the god damn way. You got a hat full of bomb, a fist full of penis, and a head full of empty.
Concerning animal companions, will there be multiple species of animals to choose from? If so, will different species have different abilities, or will it be mainly a cosmetic choice?

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.

Mymla posted:

What happens when abilities like this one crit? Same as a hit? Applies some sort of debuff to the target?
Right now, it's just the same effect as a hit.

Dr. Demon posted:

Concerning animal companions, will there be multiple species of animals to choose from? If so, will different species have different abilities, or will it be mainly a cosmetic choice?
Yes, there will be multiple animals to pick from. Each type is designed to have characteristics that distinguish it from the others.

LogicNinja
Jan 21, 2011

...the blur blurs blurringly across the blurred blur in a blur of blurring blurriness that blurred...

rope kid posted:

Right now, it's just the same effect as a hit.
Yes, there will be multiple animals to pick from. Each type is designed to have characteristics that distinguish it from the others.

Can I have a baby elephant? Please tell me I can have a baby elephant. Elephants are the Best Animal.

e:

LogicNinja fucked around with this message at 01:27 on Jan 29, 2014

namad
Nov 7, 2013

rope kid posted:

Currently, items and spells do not stack with each other. The exception to this are rings, because they are Special and Fancy. Potions do stack with other effects, but consuming a potion terminates ongoing effects from a potion currently in effect.

e: In the character sheet, we will show suppressed effects in italics so you can see what is being stomped by other items/spells.

I think I read somewhere that since gygax only wanted there to be two rings he made up that the magical energies of the rings would be potentially dangerous, explosively dangerous, if worn en masse too close to each other and so any sane magical ring user would know to only use one per hand.

VanSandman
Feb 16, 2011
SWAP.AVI EXCHANGER

LogicNinja posted:

Can I have a baby elephant? Please tell me I can have a baby elephant. Elephants are the Best Animal.

e:

Baby elephants are over powered, their ability to wield a one-handed weapon with their trunk makes their DPS so high as to make them the only sane choice. It gets even more ridiculous when you upgrade to adult elephant - a pet should not be able to wield a greatsword like that!

omeg
Sep 3, 2012

I want a rat companion. Probably won't happen but that would be nice. :v:

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

rope kid posted:

We do not have a lore explanation for why you can only wear two rings, sorry. We do use the two ring limit and the reasons are 1) overall game balance 2) tradition.

I was going to make a joke like "uh do you have a lore reason why [ridiculous thing there would never be a lore reason for because who cares]" but then I remembered that once someone made a similar joke about bottlecaps as currency in New Vegas and rope kid responded with a detailed answer about how bottlecaps came to be used as currency in New Vegas. So now I genuinely can't think of a ridiculous thing to make a joke about because anything that occurs to me has probably been thought through. The two-ring limit might be Obsidian's only weak spot.

VanSandman
Feb 16, 2011
SWAP.AVI EXCHANGER
Here, have some lore I made up just now that probably has all sorts of problems with it but I like it.

The fourth digit upon a humanoid's hand, also known as the magic finger, ring finger, or simply "the finger," is one of the manifestation points for the soul. Much like rivers connect lakes to oceans, the ring finger connects the soul to the physical realm and vice versa. When casting, spells manifest initially through this finger. As it is a two way link, soul-enfused jewelry such as rings may augment one's natural abilities when placed upon this finger, although wearing more than one per finger is useless for reasons as yet not fully understood. "Giving someone the finger," meaning to point one's magic finger at another (often accompanied by other digits due to humanoid physiological limitations), is considered an offensive gesture as it may be the first gesture of a spell.

jivjov
Sep 13, 2007

But how does it taste? Yummy!
Dinosaur Gum

2house2fly posted:

I was going to make a joke like "uh do you have a lore reason why [ridiculous thing there would never be a lore reason for because who cares]" but then I remembered that once someone made a similar joke about bottlecaps as currency in New Vegas and rope kid responded with a detailed answer about how bottlecaps came to be used as currency in New Vegas. So now I genuinely can't think of a ridiculous thing to make a joke about because anything that occurs to me has probably been thought through. The two-ring limit might be Obsidian's only weak spot.

Is this explanation about caps still floating around on the internet? I'd love to read it

cuntman.net
Mar 1, 2013

omeg posted:

I want a rat companion. Probably won't happen but that would be nice. :v:

Me too, so I can toss it and then use this

quote:

Master's Call (Active) - When the ranger issues Master's Call, his or her animal companion will immediately move back to him or her at increased speed, gaining a +20 bonus to Concentration and defenses against Disengagement Attacks. Any enemy it comes within 1m of is automatically attacked (Fortitude) and knocked Prone if the attack succeeds. 2/rest.
to have it rampage back to me smacking aside anything in its way like some horrific boomerang

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

jivjov posted:

Is this explanation about caps still floating around on the internet? I'd love to read it

It starts near the top of this page and goes on for a few posts.

Short version: Bottle caps were used by the water merchants in Fallout 1, then replaced by the NCR dollar in Fallout 2. When the NCR and the Brotherhood of Steel went to war, the Brotherhood attacked the NCR's gold reserves, which were used to back the dollar. This caused a lack of faith in NCR money, which the water merchants took advantage of to reintroduce the cap.

Bob NewSCART
Feb 1, 2012

Outstanding afternoon. "I've often said there's nothing better for the inside of a man than the outside of a horse."

Is the games price going to rise later, aka should I just buy it now and forget about it before it bumped in price?

Scorchy
Jul 15, 2006

Smug Statement: Elementary, my dear meatbag.

Bob NewSCART posted:

Is the games price going to rise later, aka should I just buy it now and forget about it before it bumped in price?

It was at 20-25$ during the Kickstarter, went up to 29$ and it's currently 35$, it's probably safe to say it'll come out at 40$ or above. Early backers get a price break (as they should).

If you read the updates and you're confident in the direction the game is going, you might as well pledge/buy now. If not then there's no harm in waiting till it comes out.

Fair Bear Maiden
Jun 17, 2013

jivjov posted:

Is this explanation about caps still floating around on the internet? I'd love to read it

Something about the Brotherhood of Steel attacking NCR gold reserves and the water merchants from the Hub lobbying for a return to caps, IIRC.

EDIT: Found this on The Vault:

quote:

It happened during the BoS-NCR war. I believe Alice McLafferty mentions it, but I'm not positive. She doesn't detail the events in this much detail, but here they are:

The attacks caused NCR citizens (and others who held NCR currency) to panic, resulting in a rush to reclaim the listed face value of currency from NCR's gold reserves. Inability to do this at several locations (especially near the periphery of NCR territory where reserves were normally low) caused a loss of faith in NCR's ability to back their currency.

Though NCR eventually stopped the BoS attacks, they decided to protect against future problems by switching to fiat currency. While this meant that BoS could no longer attack a) reserves or b) the source of production (all NCR bills are made in the Boneyard), some people felt more uneasy about their money not having any "real" (backed) value. This loss of confidence increased with NCR inflation, an ever-looming spectre of fiat currency.

Because the Hub links NCR with the Mojave Wasteland and beyond, the merchants there grew frustrated with NCR's handling of the currency crisis. They conspired to re-introduce the bottle cap as a water-backed currency that could "bridge the gap" between NCR and Legion territory. In the time leading up to the re-introduction, they did the footwork to position themselves properly. If some old-timer had a chest full of caps, they didn't care (in fact, they thought that was great, since the old-timers would enthusiastically embrace the return of the cap), but they did seek to control or destroy production facilities and truly large volumes of caps (e.g. Typhon's treasure) whenever possible.

...

How do they account for the fact that they have no control over the number of caps in circulation and any one can come in from outside the area with a huge stock of caps and screw everything up?

Hub merchants like the Crimson Caravan hire people like the Courier to deal with it. Also, there's not a big difference between someone finding a bunch of caps and finding a big chunk of gold. Loss and inflation are only a concern if the difference is large and there's a rush on the reserves. Even when US currency was gold-backed, the government continued to inflate currency numbers. This inherently devalued every previously-extant dollar relative to its backed resource, but they did it anyway because the volume change was usually small.
The reason why the Hub chose to use caps instead of a new currency is largely the same reason why the game universe uses caps: nostalgia. Remember caps? Before NCR hosed everything up? You may even have some caps still sitting around from dad's old stash. Well, that's money again. Hell, if you want to come down and turn 'em in, we'll give you water for them right now. Yessiree, the good ol' days are back again.

Fair Bear Maiden fucked around with this message at 08:36 on Jan 29, 2014

grrarg
Feb 14, 2011

Don't lose your head over it.

Scorchy posted:

It was at 20-25$ during the Kickstarter, went up to 29$ and it's currently 35$, it's probably safe to say it'll come out at 40$ or above. Early backers get a price break (as they should).

If you read the updates and you're confident in the direction the game is going, you might as well pledge/buy now. If not then there's no harm in waiting till it comes out.
Another thing to consider is that they may add more stretch goals. At last report, they were still discussing the results of that poll about adding more wilderness areas and companions. I hope they do so there is one companion of each class.

Mordaedil
Oct 25, 2007

Oh wow, cool. Good job.
So?
Grimey Drawer
Nostalgia working both in and out of universe is amazing. :allears:

I am still confused as to why the east coast of Fallout 3 uses bottle caps though. As far as I know, they just looked at Fallout 1 and assumed tradition of maintaining caps was more important than providing an actual reasonable fiat currency for the eastern province.

Alacron
Feb 15, 2007

-->Have tearful reunion with your son
-->Eh
Fun Shoe

Mordaedil posted:

Nostalgia working both in and out of universe is amazing. :allears:

I am still confused as to why the east coast of Fallout 3 uses bottle caps though. As far as I know, they just looked at Fallout 1 and assumed tradition of maintaining caps was more important than providing an actual reasonable fiat currency for the eastern province.

You might as well ask why bottle caps were used as a currency in the first game. I'm sure people could bullshit up a reason for it, like Nuka Cola having a "trade caps for prizes" promotional before the war or something, but of the things that Fallout 3 did wrong, caps as currency ranks pretty low as far as I'm concerned.

Mordaedil
Oct 25, 2007

Oh wow, cool. Good job.
So?
Grimey Drawer

Alacron posted:

You might as well ask why bottle caps were used as a currency in the first game. I'm sure people could bullshit up a reason for it, like Nuka Cola having a "trade caps for prizes" promotional before the war or something, but of the things that Fallout 3 did wrong, caps as currency ranks pretty low as far as I'm concerned.

Except that bottle caps being a currency in Fallout 1 actually had a given reason, which is that it was a fiat currency backed by the merchants of the Hub.

The east coast was never established as having an equivalent, so they literally had no fiat currency backed by noone and somehow we were still supposed to buy into it.

Yeah, sure, it ranks pretty low on a list of "problems with Fallout 3", but one of the big problems with Fallout 3 is tied into the bottle cap scenario. At the end of day, I can understand why they did it, it is a pretty endearing currency and all, but they never established who backed it, but then again, nothing really makes seense in Fallout 3 that way.

Giodo!
Oct 29, 2003

Mordaedil posted:

Except that bottle caps being a currency in Fallout 1 actually had a given reason, which is that it was a fiat currency backed by the merchants of the Hub.

The east coast was never established as having an equivalent, so they literally had no fiat currency backed by noone and somehow we were still supposed to buy into it.

Yeah, sure, it ranks pretty low on a list of "problems with Fallout 3", but one of the big problems with Fallout 3 is tied into the bottle cap scenario. At the end of day, I can understand why they did it, it is a pretty endearing currency and all, but they never established who backed it, but then again, nothing really makes seense in Fallout 3 that way.

Isn't it not really fiat currency if it's backed by water?

Mordaedil
Oct 25, 2007

Oh wow, cool. Good job.
So?
Grimey Drawer

Giodo! posted:

Isn't it not really fiat currency if it's backed by water?

Backed by water merchants. Being a fiat currency means it has no intrinsic value, but is worth as much as its backer says it is.

What with the water merchants being as powerful as they are, controlling a rare resource like clean, unradiated water, that means people might be more willing to buy into their currency than that of the NCR.

Giodo!
Oct 29, 2003

Mordaedil posted:

Backed by water merchants. Being a fiat currency means it has no intrinsic value, but is worth as much as its backer says it is.

What with the water merchants being as powerful as they are, controlling a rare resource like clean, unradiated water, that means people might be more willing to buy into their currency than that of the NCR.

Right, but if a certain amount of bottle caps = a certain amount of water, and water is a commodity with actual value, and you can readily convert it, it's not a fiat currency, right? NCR money was fiat because it only had value because the NCR said it did. Bottle caps made a comeback because they weren't fiat.

Sorry for the derail.

Mordaedil
Oct 25, 2007

Oh wow, cool. Good job.
So?
Grimey Drawer
Bottle caps are a fiat currency because they are not water and don't always lead to you getting water, but are backed by an organisation that holds a lot of power and backing. Bottle caps have no intrinsic value.

Mordaedil fucked around with this message at 14:04 on Jan 29, 2014

Diomedes
Dec 24, 2005
If we choose, we can live in a world of comforting illusion.
The descriptions for the other two Rogue powers are pretty detailed, but the description for Reckless Assault is a little lacking in details. Will it show exactly how much Deflection is lowered/Accuracy and Damage are raised? Or is it still being tweaked at the moment?

Captain Scandinaiva
Mar 29, 2010



I have a question about the UI, or more of a wish really. Will more detailed information about the game mechanics be integrated in the UI through tooltips and such? When playing many of the Infinity Engine games for the first time I often found myself confused on the mechanics. Today one also rarely has a paper copy of a game's manual ready, and it's a bit cumbersome to tab out and search a pdf. I think it would be great to have as much information from the manual as possible in the game itself.

Like, say you encounter a new enemy, you would be able to bring up information about that enemy by right-clicking them. That information could include what, if any, special attacks this enemy has. You could then click any of the special attacks to see what effect they have, maybe even how to counter the effects (see: Level and Energy Drain from BG2). Or, clicking your defense bonus would give you a full list of all effects currently affecting that stat, as well as a run down of how defense works mechanically.

Darkhold
Feb 19, 2011

No Heart❤️
No Soul👻
No Service🙅
Reading through the rogue update is really interesting. Seems like they're really thinking about how to make the class work as a real distinct combat class instead of a gimmick class.

It's really refreshing to read something as dry as some rule explanations and be thinking 'can't wait to try that...no wait I want to see how that works first...no hmmm I don't usually like that class but I like the sound of that' hopefully it will keep up with every class reveal.

Canuck-Errant
Oct 28, 2003

MOOD: BURNING - MUSIC: DISCO INFERNO BY THE TRAMMPS
Grimey Drawer
Can we all just agree that bottlecaps are a water-backed currency?

A wetback currency, if you will

Wittgen
Oct 13, 2012

We have decided to decline your offer of a butt kicking.
This update made me think that an all rogue party could be awesome. Alpha strike everything into dust or die trying.

Blotto Skorzany
Nov 7, 2008

He's a PSoC, loose and runnin'
came the whisper from each lip
And he's here to do some business with
the bad ADC on his chip
bad ADC on his chiiiiip
It seems like Rogues and Rangers would complement each other pretty well. For instance:

1) Have the Ranger's Animal Companion engage the target (say a boss character). The target is now Flanked due to the Stalker's Link ability.
e: and if the ranger isn't in position, have the Animal Companion use Takedown to make the target Prone, which also counts for the Rogue's sneak attack bonuses
2) Have the Ranger use Wounding Shot on the target. The target is now Flanked and Hobbled.
3) Have the Rogue attack. They get their Sneak Attack bonus due to the Hobbling or the Flanking.
4) Since the target has two conditions, the Rogue gets an extra Deathblows bonus damage too.


Two other things of interest I picked up from the update:
- most of the Rogue's and Ranger's nastier abilities are per-rest rather than per-encounter. I assume this is to encourage their use in boss fights rather than "cracking tough nuts" in random encounters.
- given this:

ropekid posted:

Finishing Blow (Active) - Full Attack. This ability gains power the more damaged the target is. When the rogue uses a Finishing Blow, he or she makes a full attack at the enemy with his or her current weapons. The attack is made with an Accuracy bonus and does +50% damage if it hits. For every 1% under 50% Max Stamina the target has, the attack does an additional +3% damage. 3/rest.
it appears to me that enemies will indeed be fully "in the same system" and will have both Stamina and Health.

Blotto Skorzany fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Jan 29, 2014

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.

Captain Scandinaiva posted:

I have a question about the UI, or more of a wish really. Will more detailed information about the game mechanics be integrated in the UI through tooltips and such? When playing many of the Infinity Engine games for the first time I often found myself confused on the mechanics. Today one also rarely has a paper copy of a game's manual ready, and it's a bit cumbersome to tab out and search a pdf. I think it would be great to have as much information from the manual as possible in the game itself.

Like, say you encounter a new enemy, you would be able to bring up information about that enemy by right-clicking them. That information could include what, if any, special attacks this enemy has. You could then click any of the special attacks to see what effect they have, maybe even how to counter the effects (see: Level and Energy Drain from BG2). Or, clicking your defense bonus would give you a full list of all effects currently affecting that stat, as well as a run down of how defense works mechanically.
We're addressing some of this already. From the character sheet, you can directly access an in-game summary of the rules (this appeared in the IE games as an "Information" button). You will learn information about enemies as you fight them. I don't just mean that in the obvious sense, but almost all creatures will have a cyclopedia entry. The more of these creatures you fight, the more information gets filled in about them. Once you know the standard defenses of a creature, those default values appear on their tooltips (in grey) until you attack them and learn the actual value.

In the combat log and character sheet, we will also be supporting brief/verbose outputs of formulae. Hovering over an entry will always give a verbose breakdown of what's going on.

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No Dignity
Oct 15, 2007

Canuck-Errant posted:

Can we all just agree that bottlecaps are a water-backed currency?

A wetback currency, if you will

I think the real thing we need to recognise is that bottlecaps are a currency actually tied to Purestrain Water reserves, they're living the TobleroneTrianglular dream out in the wasteland!

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