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treeboy
Nov 13, 2004

James T. Kirk was a great man, but that was another life.

Shakugan posted:

Speaking of the WoR cover art, it's funny in a way that it's a Kaladin cover given this is supposedly the/a Shallan book (haven't read the preview chapters). Sort of implies that the publishers realise that it's in their best interests to trick people into thinking it's a Kaladin focused book. I can't say I blaim them, Shallan is a terribly dull character, certainly in comparison to Kaladin and Dalinar, and it's a shame we're getting a book focused on her so soon... or at all really. I trust that it's happening for world building purposes and will all work out. But yeah, if it's necessary, it's a necessary evil.

I really hope that Sanderson doesn't write himself into a Rand-esque corner where where we only get a handful of chapters from the perspective of everyone's favorite character and/or the protagonist per book. World building is great and all, but world building using uninteresting characters, especially when it takes up a large part of a book, is one of the most frustrating things about epic fantasy.

If there's one thing I'm not concerned about it's Sandersons ability to make side characters interesting. When he creates them they're full fledged characters, not niche archetypes there to fill a single purpose (for the most part). He's taken secondary or even tertiary characters to full fledged lead or lead supporting status before.

Examples (mostly Mistborn since that's the only series of his own he's done):

Sazed (and how!)
Spook
Elend
Marsh
Hoid (from minor background character to supporting tertiary/secondary in WoK)
Pretty much the entire crew from Book 1 -> Books 2 and 3
Straff Venture

Sanderson is not afraid of creating new POV's at all especially if its new and interesting.

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Arcanen
Dec 19, 2005

Sanderson can certainly make side characters interesting, no doubt. But you may notice something very telling about all your examples... they are all male. One of Sandersons major issues is that he's not particularly good at differentiating his female characters. He's gotten better since he wrote Way of Kings, and he's always had some exceptions (Vin for example), but most of his female characters are identical. The issue in this instance is that Shallan from Stormlight Archives, Sarene from Elantris, Vivenna and Siri from Warbreaker are all the same character (Warbreaker was particularly egregious in this regard, having two of them in the same book). They all have near identical personalities, mannerisms, narrative voices etc. Even if Sanderson can take the story for Shallan in an interesting direction, the issue is that he has already established Shallan as a character... to be downright identical to characters from his other books. I'm not really interested in a Shallan book in terms of Shallan's character, because I've already read a bunch of books about her (or characters near identical to her, anyway).

Arcanen fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Jan 29, 2014

Tunicate
May 15, 2012

Vivennia and Siri were pretty different.

ConfusedUs
Feb 24, 2004

Bees?
You want fucking bees?
Here you go!
ROLL INITIATIVE!!





Tunicate posted:

Vivennia and Siri were pretty different.

They're the same character from opposite ends. One has a rise to grace, the other a fall from it.

The Glumslinger
Sep 24, 2008

Coach Nagy, you want me to throw to WHAT side of the field?


Hair Elf

Shakugan posted:

Speaking of the WoR cover art, it's funny in a way that it's a Kaladin cover given this is supposedly the/a Shallan book (haven't read the preview chapters). Sort of implies that the publishers realise that it's in their best interests to trick people into thinking it's a Kaladin focused book. I can't say I blaim them, Shallan is a terribly dull character, certainly in comparison to Kaladin and Dalinar, and it's a shame we're getting a book focused on her so soon... or at all really. I trust that it's happening for world building purposes and will all work out. But yeah, if it's necessary, it's a necessary evil.

I really hope that Sanderson doesn't write himself into a Rand-esque corner where where we only get a handful of chapters from the perspective of everyone's favorite character and/or the protagonist per book. World building is great and all, but world building using uninteresting characters, especially when it takes up a large part of a book, is one of the most frustrating things about epic fantasy.

Without spoiling anything, the Shallan chapters from the previews have actually been my favorite. It seems like he has actually found a voice for her that isn't just really awkward word play, like in the first book.

And yeah, it seems like having a book based on a character just means that they get the focus and the backstory. We still got to know Shallan and Dalinar very well in the first book, despite it being Kaladin's book.

veekie
Dec 25, 2007

Dice of Chaos

Shakugan posted:

Speaking of the WoR cover art, it's funny in a way that it's a Kaladin cover given this is supposedly the/a Shallan book (haven't read the preview chapters). Sort of implies that the publishers realise that it's in their best interests to trick people into thinking it's a Kaladin focused book. I can't say I blaim them, Shallan is a terribly dull character, certainly in comparison to Kaladin and Dalinar, and it's a shame we're getting a book focused on her so soon... or at all really. I trust that it's happening for world building purposes and will all work out. But yeah, if it's necessary, it's a necessary evil.

I really hope that Sanderson doesn't write himself into a Rand-esque corner where where we only get a handful of chapters from the perspective of everyone's favorite character and/or the protagonist per book. World building is great and all, but world building using uninteresting characters, especially when it takes up a large part of a book, is one of the most frustrating things about epic fantasy.

Well, from the previews so far the Shallan writing is satisfactory I guess. Quite a lot more interesting than she used to look.

Walh Hara
May 11, 2012

Shakugan posted:

Speaking of the WoR cover art, it's funny in a way that it's a Kaladin cover given this is supposedly the/a Shallan book (haven't read the preview chapters). Sort of implies that the publishers realise that it's in their best interests to trick people into thinking it's a Kaladin focused book. I can't say I blaim them, Shallan is a terribly dull character, certainly in comparison to Kaladin and Dalinar, and it's a shame we're getting a book focused on her so soon... or at all really. I trust that it's happening for world building purposes and will all work out. But yeah, if it's necessary, it's a necessary evil.

I really hope that Sanderson doesn't write himself into a Rand-esque corner where where we only get a handful of chapters from the perspective of everyone's favorite character and/or the protagonist per book. World building is great and all, but world building using uninteresting characters, especially when it takes up a large part of a book, is one of the most frustrating things about epic fantasy.

Shallan was a dull character in the first book (although I actually found flashback Kaladin way worse), but that doesn't mean she'll be boring in the other books. It's quite hard to write a character studying all the time in a non-boring way so it's no surprise she wasn't that interesting in the first book, but it appears in the second book she'll be busy surgebinding and looking for this lost city. Also, from the first preview flashback chapter I certainly expect her history to be more interesting than Kaladin's.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?







College Slice

Walh Hara posted:

from the first preview flashback chapter I certainly expect her history to be more interesting than Kaladin's.

Yes but you already knew that from the first book.

Hopeford
Oct 15, 2010

Eh, why not?

ConfusedUs posted:

They're the same character from opposite ends. One has a rise to grace, the other a fall from it.

To be fair, those two always seemed intentionally the same character. I'm pretty sure from the annotations that he wrote them more or less on purpose to highlight each other's changes. I'm kind of optimistic about Shallan's chapters though, if only because Sanderson is probably aware that she's everyone's least favorite character and will probably do something to fix that.

The Puppy Bowl
Jan 31, 2013

A dog, in the house.

*woof*
These sample chapters have certainly been an improvement but Shallan's POV is still the least interesting. This rings especially true with all of the action taking place with Dalinar, Kaladin, and Adolin, who is actively becoming my favorite character. Thankfully this isn't GRRM so he may yet live.

Tunicate
May 15, 2012

Walh Hara posted:

It's quite hard to write a character studying all the time in a non-boring way

Though The Emperor's soul managed it.

veekie
Dec 25, 2007

Dice of Chaos

Tunicate posted:

Though The Emperor's soul managed it.

That, was a work of art.

404GoonNotFound
Aug 6, 2006

The McRib is back!?!?
Clearly we need to send Brandon on more international flights.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?







College Slice
Brandon finished first draft on Firefight.

treeboy
Nov 13, 2004

James T. Kirk was a great man, but that was another life.

Shakugan posted:

Sanderson can certainly make side characters interesting, no doubt. But you may notice something very telling about all your examples... they are all male. One of Sandersons major issues is that he's not particularly good at differentiating his female characters. He's gotten better since he wrote Way of Kings, and he's always had some exceptions (Vin for example), but most of his female characters are identical. The issue in this instance is that Shallan from Stormlight Archives, Sarene from Elantris, Vivenna and Siri from Warbreaker are all the same character (Warbreaker was particularly egregious in this regard, having two of them in the same book). They all have near identical personalities, mannerisms, narrative voices etc. Even if Sanderson can take the story for Shallan in an interesting direction, the issue is that he has already established Shallan as a character... to be downright identical to characters from his other books. I'm not really interested in a Shallan book in terms of Shallan's character, because I've already read a bunch of books about her (or characters near identical to her, anyway).

They are all male, because I'm referring to side characters becoming bigger players in the story which so far has typically been male characters. Sanderson has quite a few female characters which remain in their supporting roles throughout the story, though often with important contributions to the story/plot/development

Blushweaver
Navani
Jasnah
Allrianne
Tindwyl
MeLaan
Ranette
Marasi
Firefight

I think there's a tendency to feel his female characters are "the same" because a smattering of his early female leads were somewhat generic, but capable, characters. He has also written witty flirts, nun-ish prudes, badasses, lawyers, street urchins, scholars, students and proteges, rebel insurgents, engineers, and artists.

By comparison his male characters tend to be dashing warriors with impeccable heroic timing or slimy traitorous bastards.

It's worth noting that I'm pretty sure all (or at least a majority) of his books pass the Bechdel test, which for me is a good indication of well-formed female characters.

treeboy fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Jan 30, 2014

Bluedust
Jan 7, 2009

by Ralp
Read the preview chapters, I'll always appreciate Brandon for finishing WOT, and I do like his stories.. but..

Chapter 1 was a complete infodump, it was nothing but his generic female voice talking to another. It read like I was reading his Egwene talking to Vin. He could have at least been somewhat subtle about the whole magic infodump. Just a really awkward opening chapter overall.

I dunno, I'll still buy the book and like it but there's something about the way he writes that just bothers me, I'm no literature guru so I have no idea how to express it beyond that. Maybe it comes off too modern? But then I liked Hunger Games and those were garbage for the most part.

All his side project airplane ride books rule though.

My one big issue is the dude needs to get imaginative with unique names. He's admitted he has a problem with that but come on you should have progressed by now. I cringe everytime a new character comes in with a name like Tyrb or something.

Democratic Pirate
Feb 17, 2010

Bluedust posted:

Read the preview chapters, I'll always appreciate Brandon for finishing WOT, and I do like his stories.. but..

Chapter 1 was a complete infodump, it was nothing but his generic female voice talking to another. It read like I was reading his Egwene talking to Vin. He could have at least been somewhat subtle about the whole magic infodump. Just a really awkward opening chapter overall.

I dunno, I'll still buy the book and like it but there's something about the way he writes that just bothers me, I'm no literature guru so I have no idea how to express it beyond that. Maybe it comes off too modern? But then I liked Hunger Games and those were garbage for the most part.


Is it because he likes to set out the magic system rules like you would in a card game such as MtG? I haven't read the preview chapters, but the dude likes to lay ground rules out early and then find creative ways to play with them.

The Puppy Bowl
Jan 31, 2013

A dog, in the house.

*woof*
Certain moments can feel like reading a D&D rule book and all of his characters suffered stilted speech at one time or another. Sanderson isn't perfect but I've never read anyone, in any genre, that can compare to him in terms of plotting. Its an astounding talent.

Bluedust
Jan 7, 2009

by Ralp

Democratic Pirate posted:

Is it because he likes to set out the magic system rules like you would in a card game such as MtG? I haven't read the preview chapters, but the dude likes to lay ground rules out early and then find creative ways to play with them.

The first chapter is literally Jasnah sitting Shallan down and telling her right up front about the Shadesmar. On some ship in the water. It came off so forced, since the prologue dealt with Jasnah and the Shadesmar.

I still love his books, I've read them all. There's just this .. thing. And I don't think I'll ever be able to explain it since I like his books so much anyway.

e: It kinda felt like an algebra class, which is cool, but in your first chapter of a huge book just felt weird to me.

Bluedust fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Jan 31, 2014

Eric the Mauve
May 8, 2012

Making you happy for a buck since 199X

Bluedust posted:

The first chapter is literally Jasnah sitting Shallan down and telling her right up front about the Shadesmar. On some ship in the water. It came off so forced, since the prologue dealt with Jasnah and the Shadesmar.

I think in the context of the story and where it left off at the end of WoK that is exactly what Jasnah would in fact be doing, though? It would seem awkward to skip over it and have Shallan later on knowing important things the reader doesn't.

Arcanen
Dec 19, 2005

Please use spoiler tags for discussing the preview chapters!

veekie
Dec 25, 2007

Dice of Chaos

Bluedust posted:

The first chapter is literally Jasnah sitting Shallan down and telling her right up front about the Shadesmar. On some ship in the water. It came off so forced, since the prologue dealt with Jasnah and the Shadesmar.

I still love his books, I've read them all. There's just this .. thing. And I don't think I'll ever be able to explain it since I like his books so much anyway.

e: It kinda felt like an algebra class, which is cool, but in your first chapter of a huge book just felt weird to me.

Given how involved his magic systems tend to be, and how their intricacies tend to link directly into plot resolution, he just needs to break it to the audience more gradually.

Hopeford
Oct 15, 2010

Eh, why not?
I kind of appreciate how "in your face" Sanderson's magic systems are. I can't really explain it, I just think that they break immersion so thoroughly I have to smile and go along with it. I mean, let me rephrase that: they break immersion at first, but they make for such better immersion in the story in the later stages of the book that I think it's fine to make a sacrifice in the beginning. I mean it would be better if it wasn't so..."in your face-y," but the way it is now doesn't bother me.

The Puppy Bowl posted:

Certain moments can feel like reading a D&D rule book and all of his characters suffered stilted speech at one time or another. Sanderson isn't perfect but I've never read anyone, in any genre, that can compare to him in terms of plotting. Its an astounding talent.

If we are counting any genre, then old school locked-room impossible murder mystery writer John Dickson Carr could match Sanderson twist per twist as far as plotting goes. He made a living out of his plotting because his characterization was so paperthin it was clearly just an excuse for the plot to exist, but burn me if the man couldn't plot. Try The Unicorn Murders if you want to see something like Sanderson's plotting in a murder mystery scenario.

Though that reminds me, I really do wish that Sanderson wrote a murder mystery. With his plotting being what it is, I bet he could write a great one.

The Puppy Bowl
Jan 31, 2013

A dog, in the house.

*woof*
Thank you, I will definetly check that out.

mallamp
Nov 25, 2009

Hopeford posted:

she's everyone's least favorite character
Huh? Didn't know that since she's one of my favorites.. :ohdear:

theshim
May 1, 2012

You think you can defeat ME, Ephraimcopter?!?

You couldn't even beat Assassincopter!!!
The fact that Sanderson's magic systems are clearly defined and laid out before he does anything with the stories is probably my single favorite thing about his writing. I am a massive sucker for well thought out and rule-driven magic systems and I love reading his books and seeing how he plays around with every system while never breaking any of the rules. Internal consistency is one of my favorite things and Sanderson is superb in this regard.

404GoonNotFound
Aug 6, 2006

The McRib is back!?!?

Hopeford posted:

If we are counting any genre, then old school locked-room impossible murder mystery writer John Dickson Carr could match Sanderson twist per twist as far as plotting goes. He made a living out of his plotting because his characterization was so paperthin it was clearly just an excuse for the plot to exist, but burn me if the man couldn't plot. Try The Unicorn Murders if you want to see something like Sanderson's plotting in a murder mystery scenario.

Though that reminds me, I really do wish that Sanderson wrote a murder mystery. With his plotting being what it is, I bet he could write a great one.

You sure you got the right name/title on that? Only "Unicorn Murders" I'm seeing on Amazon is by a Gerald Anderson.

veekie
Dec 25, 2007

Dice of Chaos

theshim posted:

The fact that Sanderson's magic systems are clearly defined and laid out before he does anything with the stories is probably my single favorite thing about his writing. I am a massive sucker for well thought out and rule-driven magic systems and I love reading his books and seeing how he plays around with every system while never breaking any of the rules. Internal consistency is one of my favorite things and Sanderson is superb in this regard.

Likewise. Honestly simply on the magic systems alone I'd read it even if it's written in a pseudo documentary style.

Aggro
Apr 24, 2003

STRONG as an OX and TWICE as SMART

Hopeford posted:

Though that reminds me, I really do wish that Sanderson wrote a murder mystery. With his plotting being what it is, I bet he could write a great one.

This should absolutely be the follow-up to Legion.

404GoonNotFound
Aug 6, 2006

The McRib is back!?!?

Aggro posted:

This should absolutely be the follow-up to Legion.

How's the whole pilot shopping process on that going anyway, has he given any updates?

Piell
Sep 3, 2006

Grey Worm's Ken doll-like groin throbbed with the anticipatory pleasure that only a slightly warm and moist piece of lemoncake could offer


Young Orc
Where's my Legion TV series, already

Edit: Looks like the last tweet was from October 24, 2013 saying it's slowly moving forward.

Piell fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Jan 31, 2014

Hopeford
Oct 15, 2010

Eh, why not?

404GoonNotFound posted:

You sure you got the right name/title on that? Only "Unicorn Murders" I'm seeing on Amazon is by a Gerald Anderson.

Yeah, the book is a bit rare but here it is. The book is long, long out of print and they just started reprinting his stuff, so this is probably an easier to find alternative and just as good, She Died a Lady. Carr wrote The Unicorn Murders under the pen name Carter Dickson because he was writing so many books at that time that his publishers thought it was too much for one person, so he just took another pen name and went "Okay. Writing anyway."

...Now that I think about it the man was similar to Sanderson in a few ways. Wonder how long until we see Sanderson start publishing books as Sand Branderson.

Hopeford fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Jan 31, 2014

treeboy
Nov 13, 2004

James T. Kirk was a great man, but that was another life.

mallamp posted:

Huh? Didn't know that since she's one of my favorites.. :ohdear:

I can't say she's my favorite character but she really doesn't bother me and i prefer her to several other characters he's written (Sazed in The Hero of Ages really bugged me, so much that I had to come back and finish the book a month or two later)

Conduit for Sale!
Apr 17, 2007

mallamp posted:

Huh? Didn't know that since she's one of my favorites.. :ohdear:

She was my favorite too but I think only because I identified with her, and also because I see a lot of potential in the character and her story. Possibly more than the other characters. I think if Branderson can flesh her out she could be a pretty great character. I would totally read a book written by Sandon that was just a young lady researching poo poo and defeating evil with the power of Knowledge.

theshim posted:

The fact that Sanderson's magic systems are clearly defined and laid out before he does anything with the stories is probably my single favorite thing about his writing.

This is one of my least favorite things about him, actually. I feel like I'm reading a novelization of a video game or something.

Also, silly question: do the spikes driven through Steel Inquisitor's eyes point out the back of their heads, or the front? I think it would look cooler if they were pointing out the back of their heads, and sticking out of their eyes is a bit of spike and then the base of the spikes so that when they look at you you'd see like steel "eyes" kind of. So that's what I've been imagining.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?







College Slice

Conduit for Sale! posted:

She was my favorite too but I think only because I identified with her, and also because I see a lot of potential in the character and her story. Possibly more than the other characters. I think if Branderson can flesh her out she could be a pretty great character. I would totally read a book written by Sandon that was just a young lady researching poo poo and defeating evil with the power of Knowledge.


This is one of my least favorite things about him, actually. I feel like I'm reading a novelization of a video game or something.

Also, silly question: do the spikes driven through Steel Inquisitor's eyes point out the back of their heads, or the front? I think it would look cooler if they were pointing out the back of their heads, and sticking out of their eyes is a bit of spike and then the base of the spikes so that when they look at you you'd see like steel "eyes" kind of. So that's what I've been imagining.

The point goes out the back.

Conduit for Sale!
Apr 17, 2007

api call girl posted:

The point goes out the back.

Whew. That's been bugging me since I started reading Mistborn.

Almost done with it. I loving love Vin, and this book.

Sudbina
Mar 17, 2009
I am about to complete Steelheart and this is my first time reading through one of Brandon's novels. He's an interesting writer and I cannot wait to start reading The Way of the Kings, which will be the next novel from him that I will read.

Shoreleave
Jun 6, 2008
Shallan grew on me over time, i think on my second read of WoK i was paying much closer attention to her point of view than i was Keladin's.

Krypsis
Nov 8, 2013

Conduit for Sale! posted:

Whew. That's been bugging me since I started reading Mistborn.

Almost done with it. I loving love Vin, and this book.

Vin is awesome, one of my favorite female characters written by a male author.

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omnibobb
Dec 3, 2005
Title text'd
Do we have an eta on any books besides Stormlight Archives 2?

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