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LOCUST FART HELL posted:FFVIII - A ragtag team of give-'em-hell freelance commandos free an empire from a swole Sorceress. Also, a subplot involves the son of one of the man characters overcoming his crippling social disabilities to ask a girl out. I think you got those two backwards.
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Jan 31, 2014 01:31
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deadicons posted:I think you got those two backwards. He comes from a universe where they got a much better version of FFVIII.
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Jan 31, 2014 01:33
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I thought they saved the world for delicious hotdogs.
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Jan 31, 2014 02:04
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Hit or miss Clitoris posted:A young man must ruin his dad's job, cripple his brother, murder his new friend's mom, and force his girlfriend to dye her hair, after getting in a snowball fight and reading an old book Still one of my favorite FF plots out there.
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Jan 31, 2014 02:07
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I'm glad there's a ff where you explicitly play as the villain, I thought it was a nice break from the norm.
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Jan 31, 2014 02:10
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The thesis of FFTA was that it's better to face a lovely reality with courage than to shut it away and live in a fantasy world based on a video game. People who play a lot of video games understandably considered this morally repugnant.
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Jan 31, 2014 02:27
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I really need to play Tactics Advance, apparently.
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Jan 31, 2014 02:29
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Bongo Bill posted:The thesis of FFTA was that it's better to face a lovely reality with courage than to shut it away and live in a fantasy world based on a video game. People who play a lot of video games understandably considered this morally repugnant. It's a good thesis just presented poorly. They could have emphasized it better because as it stands "wait, why is reality better?" is a question the game doesn't really do a good job answering, which is why it kind of halfheartedly tosses in 'oh, uh, giant evil gonna kill everyone' at the very end. They do some minor things, like revealing the bullies from the start of the game were turned into lovely zombies in this fantasy world, but they don't really do a good job really driving the point home. It doesn't help that the protagonist who is fighting to not live in a fantasy is the dude who has the least to lose if they go back home. Basically it isn't a bad thesis, it's just not good enough writing to pull it off. A bit more effort and they could have done so easily. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Jan 31, 2014 |
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Jan 31, 2014 02:30
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Reality's better because it's reality. It isn't their home. They have hopes and dreams and friends and family in the real world, and even though this is a nice dream, it's just that - a dream. It's just a fantasy. Wrapping themselves up in it isn't actually fixing anything - it's just running away from their problems. Granted I agree that the game never really says anything to that effect. And yeah, I agree that Marche probably should have had something major wrong back in the real world - the most he ever got was 'some fat kids don't like him' and 'Montblanc is kind of his friend.'
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Jan 31, 2014 02:32
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Wait, I thought reality got warped so that the fantasy stuff essentially became real? I think the game would have made it's point better if they were all just living an illusion as opposed to literally changing reality.
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Jan 31, 2014 02:35
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Sex_Ferguson posted:I really need to play Tactics Advance, apparently. If you do, remember that it was intended to be a tie-in to FFXII, which due to delays instead came out three years after its own spinoff. ImpAtom posted:It's a good thesis just presented poorly. They could have emphasized it better because as it stands "wait, why is reality better?" is a question the game doesn't really do a good job answering, which is why it kind of halfheartedly tosses in 'oh, uh, giant evil gonna kill everyone' at the very end. It's all centered around Mewt. He's the one who created the other world - understandably, as he was the one with the worst real life (dead mom, drunk dad, bullied, etc.). He dragged his friends into it, too, and quite unlike the bullies (who became monsters) or random people (who became... random people, but in Ivalice), their lives were also improved. They weren't royalty like he was, with a loving mother, a respected father, and the power to make everybody else conform to his whims, but they were free and strong and got to enjoy the clan wars. His friends, indeed, were the only ones who got to remember that there ever was a real world - because they helped create the fantasy. Mewt demanded tighter and tighter laws, much to the dissatisfaction of the citizenry, until a full-scale rebellion arose. The closer Marche came to making Mewt face his denial, the more monstrous the false queen Remedi (the very symbol of that denial) became. Even his most loyal servant, Babus, who was a stuffed doll brought to life, joined Marche's faction, and his father helped. Why? Because they came to realize that ending the fantasy was the best thing for Mewt. His continued attempts to deny reality were making him into a bad person, a petty tyrant, a brat who brazenly abused his power over life and death. And that's something no true friend should stand by and watch. And, hell, that game has a post-game. Marche didn't even destroy Ivalice. All he did was what he set out to do: save Mewt from himself. It's okay to have a fantasy; just don't live in one. The fact that you play through the game in the same role as Exdeath, traveling around the world trying to smash the crystals and unmake the world, is cool too, but it's just the framing device that Mewt created. This game's got problems, both in its design and its story, but it's also got heart. Bongo Bill fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Jan 31, 2014 |
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Jan 31, 2014 02:44
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I agree with that but as I said, the problem is that the writing doesn't back it up. Marche's emphasis is always on "we need to go home because going home is right" more than anything else and the increasing pettiness of Mewt is, while part of the plot, not given the proper emphasis as the main focus of Marshe's quest. The basis for a good game is there but it needed to be better written to pull off what it was going for.
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Jan 31, 2014 02:53
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ImpAtom posted:I agree with that but as I said, the problem is that the writing doesn't back it up. Marche's emphasis is always on "we need to go home because going home is right" more than anything else and the increasing pettiness of Mewt is, while part of the plot, not given the proper emphasis as the main focus of Marshe's quest. The basis for a good game is there but it needed to be better written to pull off what it was going for. Yeah, and didn't Marche start off as a total douche destroying crystals right and left before he learned about Mewt? It was just him who wanted to go home from the beginning, really.
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Jan 31, 2014 02:56
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I actually thought that FFTA had one of the best- if not the best- stories of the non-numbered FF games. It was sad, really sad, but made a very valid meta-point about the perils of using escapism to avoid your true problems. I find it interesting that Mewt is by far the most likable, relatable character in the game (especially to me, since I played through it as a 13 year old the year it came out), and yet he is made out to be a sort of antagonist. To make a long story short, I would play the poo poo out of a FFTA reboot which gave you the option of playing as him, Marche, or the amazon-girl-with-the-pink-hair-whose-name-I-can't-remember.
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Jan 31, 2014 02:58
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I'm gonna say that the game does itself a huge favor by not having a bunch of longwinded lovely philosophy discussions about hiding from reality, even if it means people left with the wrong impression. Also in that huge spoiler block I think you meant Babus, not Ezel.
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Jan 31, 2014 02:58
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fronz posted:I'm gonna say that the game does itself a huge favor by not having a bunch of longwinded lovely philosophy discussions about hiding from reality, even if it means people left with the wrong impression. Can't argue with that.
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Jan 31, 2014 02:59
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fronz posted:I'm gonna say that the game does itself a huge favor by not having a bunch of longwinded lovely philosophy discussions about hiding from reality, even if it means people left with the wrong impression. Correct on both counts.
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Jan 31, 2014 02:59
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Endorph posted:Reality's better because it's reality. It isn't their home. They have hopes and dreams and friends and family in the real world, and even though this is a nice dream, it's just that - a dream. It's just a fantasy. Wrapping themselves up in it isn't actually fixing anything - it's just running away from their problems. I think Cid's character arc ties everything together. Initially, he's the one trying convince Marche to give up on his quest since he has power through his clan and is in a fantasy world. Cid actually calls him out because of the singled mindedness of his quest. However, when Cid sees how he was a neglectful drunk who was gifted his status, he immediately goes on Marche's side against Mewt and Remedi. He realizes that the world is a fantasy of the son he failed to protect. He realizes that making his son face reality is what a father should do since the fantasy was bringing out the worst qualities in his son. It's got a lot of problems (Ivalice-world Problems: Sure you might be crippled in the real world but I got teased for my hair!) but it's surprisingly heartfelt.
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Jan 31, 2014 03:03
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I agree that FFTA had the ingredients for a good message, but never really mixed them together quite right (even without needing long-winded philosophical discussions). Due to ~magic~, this wasn't escapism in the sense of "you're sitting here drinking in a bar while your whole life collapses", but rather "you've been taken out of a lovely reality where things suck and put into an awesome reality where your problems are literally fixed!" All of Marche's friends are portrayed as happier and better off than they were before. I don't think the bullies-as-zombies are even pointed out in the game, and you just have to remember their names and notice them in a battle as a sort of easter egg. For all we know, they're not the actual bullies, and could just be some monsters that Mewt named after the bullies because he's 10. Then combine that with Marche's motivation literally being "gently caress you losers and your lovely lives, I wanna go home so we're all going home." Plus the fact that he had no idea whether what he was doing would actually take him home, or whether it would just unmake this reality and kill everyone in it. So yeah, Marche kinda comes across as the rear end in a top hat villain. This is a situation where most people who play it do the story's work for it and say, "oh, I get it, the moral SHOULD be that it's better to face reality." But that's not really the message the game succeeded in teaching.
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Jan 31, 2014 04:20
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Captain Mog posted:I actually thought that FFTA had one of the best- if not the best- stories of the non-numbered FF games. It was sad, really sad, but made a very valid meta-point about the perils of using escapism to avoid your true problems. I find it interesting that Mewt is by far the most likable, relatable character in the game (especially to me, since I played through it as a 13 year old the year it came out), and yet he is made out to be a sort of antagonist. Except Mewt really didn't come across as all that likeable either. The post above pretty much nails it, the moment he begins to feel the smallest bit threatened he completely loses his poo poo and becomes a petulant tyrant. Plus you can blame him for the steadily increasing amount of simultaneous laws in each battle as the game progresses. 
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Jan 31, 2014 04:57
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Schwartzcough posted:Due to ~magic~, this wasn't escapism in the sense of "you're sitting here drinking in a bar while your whole life collapses", but rather "you've been taken out of a lovely reality where things suck and put into an awesome reality where your problems are literally fixed!" It's almost as though it's a metaphor.
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Jan 31, 2014 05:55
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I hope FFXV is the result of Lightning getting shitfaced at a French bar.
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Jan 31, 2014 05:56
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Krad posted:FFXII: Star Wars Special Edition, but in medieval times. FF12 is actually more like Turkish Star Wars, in many ways.
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Jan 31, 2014 05:58
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Bongo Bill posted:It's almost as though it's a metaphor. A good metaphor should include the key elements you're supposed to be making commentary on. Like the downsides to escapism. And that's why FFTA's metaphor doesn't work.
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Jan 31, 2014 06:15
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Level Slide posted:I hope FFXV is the result of Lightning getting shitfaced at a French bar. Shame there isn't an epilogue scene in Lightning Returns, of her at the bar, reading the FFXIII series design document with the biggest loving scowl on her face, taking sips of her cream liqueur, saying "Seriously. What the gently caress? What the gently caress happended in my life?"
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Jan 31, 2014 06:24
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Fister Roboto posted:FF12 is actually more like Turkish Star Wars, in many ways.
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Jan 31, 2014 07:09
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The White Dragon posted:It's humorously unreadable and sounds like it was recorded bootleg in a theater? Dude that's what happens when there's so much loving magic everywhere. Sound doesn't travel well through Magjicks
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Jan 31, 2014 07:18
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Schwartzcough posted:A good metaphor should include the key elements you're supposed to be making commentary on. Like the downsides to escapism. And that's why FFTA's metaphor doesn't work. Ivalice is not just any fantasy; it's Mewt's fantasy specifically, and it's a pretty hosed up one, in which armored assholes enforce the whims of a prince who decrees ever-more draconian edicts solely to feel more in control. At first Marche just wants to go home because he can tell he wants no part of this nonsense, but the more he learns of it, the more he realizes that Ivalice is a nightmare, a cry for help, and he can't abandon the friend who has trapped himself in it. He can't just go on living in it, because despite his privileged position as a clan leader, he knows that Ivalice is a dystopia; and he can't just leave it, because that would mean losing his friends to it (you can never really leave the life, fantasies and all, of a friend, as long as you remain friends). The only remaining option is to destroy it. Of course his friends enjoy being there, because Mewt has made sure their new lives include what he thinks they want: Ritz doesn't have to dye her hair, but in losing its natural color she lost an aspect of herself that she got from her mother; Doned can use his legs, but he's still full of bitterness. Ivalice, in effect, tells them that they need to be different than who they are, or that they need to be able to do things that they cannot do, in order to be happy. And that's why this is no mere harmless fantasy. And in the end, Marche found the only part of Mewt's dream that was both possible and good, and made it come true, by making Cid straighten out his life and take renewed interest in his son. Once that had been achieved, there was no need for the rest of Ivalice, except as a place to imagine - for fun.
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Jan 31, 2014 07:38
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Bongo Bill posted:Ivalice is not just any fantasy; it's Mewt's fantasy specifically, and it's a pretty hosed up one, in which armored assholes enforce the whims of a prince who decrees ever-more draconian edicts solely to feel more in control. At first Marche just wants to go home because he can tell he wants no part of this nonsense, but the more he learns of it, the more he realizes that Ivalice is a nightmare, a cry for help, and he can't abandon the friend who has trapped himself in it. He can't just go on living in it, because despite his privileged position as a clan leader, he knows that Ivalice is a dystopia; and he can't just leave it, because that would mean losing his friends to it (you can never really leave the life, fantasies and all, of a friend, as long as you remain friends). The only remaining option is to destroy it. Do we really need to spoil an 11-year old game in a megathread where we happy spoil the plot of every other game in the series? At any rate, I think you're reaching a bit to describe Ivalice as a "dystopia." Seems like the Judges are mostly there to give Mewt's dad an important-sounding job, and despite complaints from players the judges are relatively a harmless annoyance that might slap you on the wrist if you ignore the law. Everyone is initially quite happy to be there and are not complaining about being crushed under the cruel heel of their overlords. The only time Mewt starts getting "more draconian" is when Marche starts going around destroying the very foundations of the universe. It's not like Mewt's just doing it because he's bored; he's doing it to try and protect Ivalice from a supervillain (and of course he's invested in it, because it's his world that's getting destroyed). Nor do I recall Marche discovering that Ivalice is really a "nightmare." His take is more "I want to go home, so everyone else should too! Why are you resisting me?" I recall Donned's bitterness being focused at Marche, because he's trying to force Donned back into being sickly and handicapped without caring how Donned might feel about this. Further, I don't think Marche really "found the part of the dream that was possible and good and made it true" like that was his intention. Marche just kept on with his "this isn't the real world, we should leave, I wanna go home!" while Cid decided on his own that, yes, they should leave and he should become a better person. I think most of the team started following Marche just because he's the protagonist so obviously he's right and we should join him; not because of any compelling arguments he made or some master plan to fix their psyches. Then again, I haven't played the game in a decade so maybe I'm wrong and it really was Marche's Adventures in Psychotherapy. Edit: vvv Ah, I missed that. Schwartzcough fucked around with this message at 08:39 on Jan 31, 2014 |
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Jan 31, 2014 08:05
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A dude on this page said he hadn't played it and looked to suggest he may do, so it's common courtesy. The best bit of FFTA is killing Montblanc in Jagd.
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Jan 31, 2014 08:19
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I'm replaying FFTA lately (I sorta suggest it if you play with 5x speed - makes the battles way more fun), and its biggest issue is that there's just not enough to do with classes. I'm maybe halfway in and I've already got pretty much all the skills I could ever want on my dudes, barring some combos because where the gently caress is the mithril. All the class trees are super linear except for Vieras, which is pretty boring.
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Jan 31, 2014 09:38
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Not to mention how limited the non-hume races are in terms of classes. I want a Bangaa Juggler, dammit.
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Jan 31, 2014 10:30
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I'm playing FFTA for the first time at the moment, too, so I appreciate the spoilers  .So far, I'm 25 hours in, have 85 missions done and am pretty happy with the game. Got a dualcasting summoner, a fresh assassin (apparently broken?) and I think Illusionists are ridiculous. Also: Mog Knight who knows Ultima Charge but doesn't have the MP for it, so he's destroying poo poo as Juggler.
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Jan 31, 2014 10:31
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Am I the only one here who was horribly disappointed with FFTA? Like, I wasn't expecting anything as dark or interesting as FF Tactics, but I've given the game multiple shots and it just doesn't do anything for me. Enjoyed FFTA2 on the DS more, but it felt just as pointless.
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Jan 31, 2014 10:48
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Pyroxene Stigma posted:Am I the only one here who was horribly disappointed with FFTA? Like, I wasn't expecting anything as dark or interesting as FF Tactics, but I've given the game multiple shots and it just doesn't do anything for me. Enjoyed FFTA2 on the DS more, but it felt just as pointless. I'd say you're pretty far from the "only one" given that I think the biggest general complaint about FFTA is that it's nothing much like FFT. I personally didn't mind the shift in tone, and was pretty neutral on the new setting. The thing that was really disappointing to me was the changes in the Job System. Yeah, sure, FFT is a pretty broken game, but it was broken in all the fun ways, and even outside of the broken stuff the mechanics just had so much potential. Then I played FFTA and felt the same way as fronz: fronz posted:I'm replaying FFTA lately (I sorta suggest it if you play with 5x speed - makes the battles way more fun), and its biggest issue is that there's just not enough to do with classes. I'm maybe halfway in and I've already got pretty much all the skills I could ever want on my dudes, barring some combos because where the gently caress is the mithril. All the class trees are super linear except for Vieras, which is pretty boring. I guess I just really wanted a refinement of the Job System from FF3->FF5->FFT, where FFTA felt like it inherited more from, say, FF9.
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Jan 31, 2014 11:04
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I preferred TA2 myself since it made the law system into a reward system rather than a punishment one while opening up the core gameplay quite a bit with a lot more content. Also the story is stupid simple and the protagonist literally doesn't really give a poo poo one way or the other whether he stays or goes home. Plus Vaan and Penelo are actually kinda interesting in this game. And the graphics are small enough where you don't get to make out every idiotic detail of Luso's insane outfit.
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Jan 31, 2014 11:29
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Honestly the only thing that actually bothered me about FFTA laws was a) the enemies that mattered were exempt b) Marche getting jailed was game-over. If those were fixed - and laws were actually displayed automatically to you before every battle (maybe stuck up in a corner somewhere so that you could see them at all times), the system wouldn't have been so bad. A neat way to make you be more creative. But the fact that you can game over from forgetting whatever laws were around was terrible.
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Jan 31, 2014 12:12
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I think there's a code to play with Jagd rules at all times. If I ever replay TA, that's what I'm going to use. Snowball fight to the death. 
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Jan 31, 2014 12:25
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Mega64 posted:And the graphics are small enough where you don't get to make out every idiotic detail of Luso's insane outfit. Oh, you mean  this wonderful creation. 
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Jan 31, 2014 13:37
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All that, and it doesn't even mention his ponytail. E: I did have to Google what an Ahoge was.
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Jan 31, 2014 13:45
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