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the_steve
Nov 9, 2005

We're always hiring!

Lanky Coconut Tree posted:

Look this Smartass didn't even go consult the melachim in charge of us. Who were monitoring us. To get any loving relevant details about us. Do you think he cares? He gives two shits about us other than us being obedient dogs?

He doesn't even know who we love for fucks sake.

And you guys just wanna roll over and lick his boots. Big scary prophecy. From a rogue element? Or does he speak for all melachim and El himself?

gently caress him

Seriously.
Smattas basically showed us a bullshit propaganda film designed to scare us into a knee jerk reaction without offering any explanation other than "because gently caress you, I said so."
He WANTS us to run to Ishamal. Hell, he's probably polishing his magic scissors because he was told to expect us.

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Big Bug Hug
Nov 19, 2002
I'm with stupid*
Why can't Ishamal temporarily sterilize us? We'd be doing it voluntarily, and if things become more obvious later, with new information, we can reverse it. (Was this answered already?)

If possible, B ask Ishamal about this proposal. Tell him about the dream. I want us to not have kids for now, but I don't entirely trust this dream.

Facebook Aunt
Oct 4, 2008

wiggle wiggle




the_steve posted:

Sure Enkidel! Your kids are TOTALLY the reason nameless entities whose power dwarfs yours in such a scale that you can't even comprehend it descend and turn the planet into a battleground from which all life perishes in agony and despair.
But don't ask how! Just go get spayed already! Critical thinking is for dorks!

That's easy. Anyone who is willing to make use of all the tools available will be more power than those not willing to use some tools.

Our kids are born with as much power as we have. Maybe some a bit more, some a bit less, but all basically on our level. In a few generations our level of Might becomes the new "average" for Mighty Men. Hundreds of men just like us.

A few of our kids aren't happy being average. Or maybe they are just too inquisitive for their own good. They get involved in forbidden sorcery and blood magic. Our level of might + forbidden blood sorcery = more powerful than us.

my dad
Oct 17, 2012

this shall be humorous
I'm in the heretic camp now, I guess.

THE MELACHIM CAN GO gently caress THEMSELVES.

No to snipping. - The end of the world did not happen because of us.

Mexican Deathgasm
Aug 17, 2010

Ramrod XTreme
That was fantastic! Now that's what I'm talking about, some clear information.

Voting B, sterilize me Ishmael!

Numeron
Mar 23, 2012

A whole new world in
the palm of my hand.
In the dream our children mostly perished, weren't a primary factor in the current events and were (probably) not our foes.

It seems the problem here is that their mere existance will provoke other factions into action - not that they'll have any effect in and of themselves.

Pity its too late to hide them, there are probably plenty of eyes on us now.

the_steve
Nov 9, 2005

We're always hiring!

February 13, 2014
The day Goons vote to allow an old man to cut off their balls because a magical sky man yelled "Ooga booga!" and gave them a scary dream.

Lanky Coconut Tree
Apr 7, 2011

An angry tree.

The angriest tree

Numeron posted:

In the dream our children mostly perished, weren't a primary factor in the current events and were (probably) not our foes.

It seems the problem here is that their mere existance will provoke other factions into action - not that they'll have any effect in and of themselves.

Pity its too late to hide them, there are probably plenty of eyes on us now.

Have the kids, give them to Azz to hide. Simple.

It's funny that the other guy thinks that dream was clear information. Because it was nothing more than smoke and mirrors. Generic end of the world rubbish.

Anyway if Smartass is so powerful he really should just snip us himself

Facebook Aunt
Oct 4, 2008

wiggle wiggle




Numeron posted:

In the dream our children mostly perished, weren't a primary factor in the current events and were (probably) not our foes.

It seems the problem here is that their mere existance will provoke other factions into action - not that they'll have any effect in and of themselves.

Pity its too late to hide them, there are probably plenty of eyes on us now.


One of our descendants could have accidentally cracked the world in a way that let the Foe run free. One of our descendants could have been seduced by the Foe with promises of knowledge, power, or glory in return for a seemingly insignificant favour. We ourselves made a deal with a powerful being of uncertain motives, in return for an unspecified favour. What if one of our descendants does the same thing, but it turns out their mysterious stranger isn't Azz but a bonafide demon?

Our kid doesn't have to be the Big Bad in order to be responsible for the Big Bad.

Mexican Deathgasm
Aug 17, 2010

Ramrod XTreme

the_steve posted:

February 13, 2014
The day Goons vote to allow an old man to cut off their balls because a magical sky man yelled "Ooga booga!" and gave them a scary dream.

To be fair, he's one of the most powerful beings in the universe that wields a flaming sword that's bigger than the moon. Even if he's lying to us, we need to do what the demigod with the moon sized sword says.

my dad
Oct 17, 2012

this shall be humorous

Mexican Deathgasm posted:

To be fair, he's one of the most powerful beings in the universe that wields a flaming sword that's bigger than the moon. Even if he's lying to us, we need to do what the demigod with the moon sized sword says.

Correction, he can make us dream about a flaming sword bigger than the moon.

Tax Inductions
Jul 9, 2007

I carry refreshments to the good guys
I made the good guys some home fries
For any of you complaining that Smattas/Smythos is speaking to us, not El - that is expected, and the way it's always been. El never interferes directly, he ALWAYS acts/speaks through melachim, and Smattas is his right-hand-man. Noone who followed the el orthodoxy would bat an eye at this.

Deadly Ham Sandwich
Aug 19, 2009
Smellrose
Just zap our balls already.

Tsyni
Sep 1, 2004
Lipstick Apathy
Is Enkidel really a cowed wienie? Why not just abstain from having kids until we know more instead of jumping right into this based on conjecture?

Mexican Deathgasm
Aug 17, 2010

Ramrod XTreme

my dad posted:

Correction, he can make us dream about a flaming sword bigger than the moon.

Yeah, true, I dunno. At least if we get sterilized we can get on with the game and start learning stuff, and our loved ones will be safer. Who knows, maybe we'll be able to fix ourselves once we become Superman.

100 HOGS AGREE
Oct 13, 2007
Grimey Drawer

the_steve posted:

February 13, 2014
The day Goons vote to allow an old man to cut off their balls because a magical sky man yelled "Ooga booga!" and gave them a scary dream.

Just in time for valentines day!

the_steve
Nov 9, 2005

We're always hiring!

We don't even know that the Foes were demons. Why would Smattas hide that fact and make them vague indistinguishable :airquote:Foes:airquote:?
Wouldn't it make more sense to say "The world is overrun by Demons because of you." Than to say "The world is overrun by vague nameless Foes because of you."?
Especially since killing a demon is what kick started this whole argument.

Facebook Aunt
Oct 4, 2008

wiggle wiggle




Lets assume that the dream is not a certainty, but just a possibility.

On one side of the scale we have "slight chance of end of the world". On the other side of the scale we have "I kinda want to be a daddy, if it doesn't interfere with fun stuff too much". Do the scales balance?

JT Jag
Aug 30, 2009

#1 Jaguars Sunk Cost Fallacy-Haver
I really don't want to do this, but dammit, this is our official warning from Smattas and we should probably heed it. B, head to Ishamal.

Mexican Deathgasm
Aug 17, 2010

Ramrod XTreme

100 HOGS AGREE posted:

Just in time for valentines day!

Holy poo poo, our fictional character is going to get married and lose his virginity on Valentine's.
Paradise Lost: Goon Wish Fulfillment

JT Jag
Aug 30, 2009

#1 Jaguars Sunk Cost Fallacy-Haver

Mexican Deathgasm posted:

Holy poo poo, our fictional character is going to get married and lose his virginity on Valentine's.
Paradise Lost: Goon Wish Fulfillment
Only have to remember one date a year? The media constantly reminds you to do something for your anniversary? Sign me up!!

Lanky Coconut Tree
Apr 7, 2011

An angry tree.

The angriest tree

Mr. Wednesday posted:

For any of you complaining that Smattas/Smythos is speaking to us, not El - that is expected, and the way it's always been. El never interferes directly, he ALWAYS acts/speaks through melachim, and Smattas is his right-hand-man. Noone who followed the el orthodoxy would bat an eye at this.

It's not that Smartass is speaking to us and not EL, it's that Smartass ALONE is speaking to us. Where's the other Melachim, where is their input? Children of EL, council of angels, and yet they don't discuss and share information? We have Melachim WATCHING us. Specificaly dedicated to us. Where's the info from them? If this was a team decision, clearly they would have been educated on how much we love Snarls, even more than Danal, and how much Naomi means to Enkidel.



Here's the really loving funny part. The Melachim, are no better than men. In fact, probably worse. Look at Azz / Jorah having a pissfight in our mind. Look at how Jorah has been bearing a grudge about them making fun of eagles and sparrows for how many fuckin aeons? Look at how they are TOO BUSY FIGHTING TO GIVE A poo poo ABOUT MANKIND, in their own dream. Do not Destroy, be Merciful, all that just applies to men and not to Melachim huh? Let the whole human race go extinct, because clearly every one of them was guilty of...?

my dad
Oct 17, 2012

this shall be humorous
Also, DIO, you might want to slow down the voting a bit. I understand that you want to keep a pace adequate to the content, but there's plenty of goons in various timezones who miss out on the fun.

Diogines
Dec 22, 2007

Beaky the Tortoise says, click here to join our choose Your Own Adventure Game!

Paradise Lost: Clash of the Heavens!

Lanky Coconut Tree posted:

Anyway if Smartass is so powerful he really should just snip us himself
Well, a little food for thought. You have some pools of knowledge you can draw upon, including a pretty good education in theological matters.

Smatass is perhaps the most popular of the Ophanim. He is Tudiya's favorite. How might Tudiya respond to that, based on your known views of his?

Walrusmaster
Sep 21, 2009

Mexican Deathgasm posted:

That was fantastic! Now that's what I'm talking about, some clear information.

Voting B, sterilize me Ishmael!

Exactly. B

Numeron
Mar 23, 2012

A whole new world in
the palm of my hand.
There was some pretty shoddy homework and lack of knowledge on us for that dream. Precisely the kind of knowledge that would effect our future. It was all fake, and contained nothing more than their fears.

Diogines
Dec 22, 2007

Beaky the Tortoise says, click here to join our choose Your Own Adventure Game!

Paradise Lost: Clash of the Heavens!

my dad posted:

Also, DIO, you might want to slow down the voting a bit. I understand that you want to keep a pace adequate to the content, but there's plenty of goons in various timezones who miss out on the fun.
I am sympathetic to that fact. I figured it was okay for a (maybe) dream sequence?

JT Jag
Aug 30, 2009

#1 Jaguars Sunk Cost Fallacy-Haver
In time, I doubt we need genetic children that much anyway. Someone mentioned it earlier, but if we created Snarls unconsciously by just wanting a companion that badly, we could probably change the nature of a person in time.

Test one: Tell Danal that we absolutely, firmly believe with all of our hearts that he will come into his Might and become at least as strong as his dad, and seriously mean it.

Cathair
Jan 7, 2008
That dream was fishy as hell. There's too many specific divergences that ought to be red flags to anyone with reading comprehension skills. What I mean is, some people are taking this as a clear-cut message from the author that this CYOA will take a sharp turn apocalypse-ward if we choose not to get sterilized, yet it's written in a way that strongly suggests it can't be taken at face value.

B: talk to Ishamal about this, specifically mentioning suspicions about the manipulative qualities of the message. He might not say anything useful considering that the dream seems to agree with what we know of his agenda, but hey, input.

No to sterilization.

Sogol
Apr 11, 2013

Galileo's Finger
Consideration from Team :spergin:
with usual apologies, caveats and qualifiers

Questioning this Sending is not some adolescent tantrum. And Smattas is almost certainly not our Father. He is probably our older (bullying) brother or something of the sort. He probably imagines that he has good intentions and is certain in his righteousness.

We exist. The Powers that Be are not stoked about that for whatever reasons. The End of the World message was sponsored by the Powers that Be (PtB).

If whoever is responsible for our existing (let's call him Dad) narrated a Sending would it be the same? Maybe, maybe not.

And what about a sending of the World in which either We don't exist at all or in which we have no children? What would that Sending look like? We don't know.

The Sending we received was a sponsored message sent by the PtB because they could, based on their agenda. Fear of God and all. Maybe based on their beliefs. Probably based upon their past gently caress ups. That we exist and they allowed that to happen is their current gently caress up. Whoever and wherever Dad is, he outsmarted them for better or worse. Presumably the PtB can also prevent us from receiving other information.

Where is El ? Where is Dad ? Why won't anyone tell us these simple things? I am not saying we pitch a fit for answers. I am suggesting we use the deleted information as information.

Raserys
Aug 22, 2011

IT'S YA BOY

Angela Christine posted:

Lets assume that the dream is not a certainty, but just a possibility.

On one side of the scale we have "slight chance of end of the world". On the other side of the scale we have "I kinda want to be a daddy, if it doesn't interfere with fun stuff too much". Do the scales balance?

Adoption, problem solved!

dyzzy
Dec 22, 2009

argh
B Snip snip snip!

Team Eunuch, doing the responsible thing :patriot:

Quornes
Jun 23, 2011
B snip snip, but bitch about he never told us poo poo. And of all the people we asked where to go, we valued his advice the most and threw the knife the then led to the cave with a demon. Then we ended up having to fight it and we purposely didn't use our powers the first time we felt them activate and later didn't even try to use them but prayed to El.

HiHo ChiRho
Oct 23, 2010

Maybe all Danal needs to get might is to just be little spoon with us!

Lanky Coconut Tree posted:

It's not that Smartass is speaking to us and not EL, it's that Smartass ALONE is speaking to us. Where's the other Melachim, where is their input? Children of EL, council of angels, and yet they don't discuss and share information? We have Melachim WATCHING us. Specificaly dedicated to us. Where's the info from them? If this was a team decision, clearly they would have been educated on how much we love Snarls, even more than Danal, and how much Naomi means to Enkidel.



Here's the really loving funny part. The Melachim, are no better than men. In fact, probably worse. Look at Azz / Jorah having a pissfight in our mind. Look at how Jorah has been bearing a grudge about them making fun of eagles and sparrows for how many fuckin aeons? Look at how they are TOO BUSY FIGHTING TO GIVE A poo poo ABOUT MANKIND, in their own dream. Do not Destroy, be Merciful, all that just applies to men and not to Melachim huh? Let the whole human race go extinct, because clearly every one of them was guilty of...?

Or, Smattass is the VOICE of El and is telling us of one of the the consequences of our actions, and is willing to kill us for it. It is likely Melachim have no free will, and likely the cause of our clash of the heavens.. Humans get the choice to live how they want with the blessing (or curse) of mortality. People like us and Tudiya get a bit of leeway. Smattas can't just END it because he can't control us.

The question is ultimately do we trust Smattas to not end the world because goons want goon babbys.

Tomn
Aug 23, 2007

And the angel said unto him
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself."
But lo he could not. For the angel was hitting him with his own hands
Now, some folks are kinda pissed at Smythos here because "He's just sending us a bullshit prophecy dream, this isn't none of it real, why be scared by a random idiot?"

Question: Aside from feeling far more intense, how exactly does this dream differ from Smythos showing up and yelling "DO NOT HAVE CHILDREN BECAUSE IF YOU DO TERRIBLE PAIN AND DEVASTATION WILL ARISE!"?

Sure, this is probably not a true, exact prophecy of the future, but that doesn't matter - this is a very powerful Melachim's way of delivering a message of what he THINKS is going to happen in the future if we have children. In its essence, it's really not very different from any of us making an argument to do this or that - Smythos just has a much better home entertainment system to host his arguments from.

You may disagree with Smythos, of course. You may think he's overplaying the dangers, that we can certainly control the problems, that we can surely bring about a new golden age of peace and prosperity instead.

THAT is why he accuses us of thinking our wisdom greater than eternal children of El. We, Enkidel, barely out of our teens if at all, think our knowledge and judgement superior to those who probably made the world. We know better - of course we do. We are the protagonists, aren't we? Shouldn't these eternal creators deal with us as equals instead of superiors?

A vote for not sterilizing ourselves is essentially a vote saying "No, gently caress you, I'm right and you're wrong" to the Melachim. Certainly to Smythos, anyways. Now, that's not to say that Smythos is indubitably right or that we are indubitably wrong - who knows, perhaps everyone except us IS mistaken about the nature of the world. Just be aware that by arguing back, you'll essentially be flipping the bird to a lot of very powerful, long-lived deities who already think we're a dangerous loose cannon who should be taken out for the good of the world.

If you really, REALLY want to retain our ability to have kids, don't vote for not sterilizing ourselves. Vote for magical exile, or cyrosleep, or any other method that wouldn't make the Melachim fear what we will do next and what our children would do. Voting to stay on Ur and remain fertile is voting to get our teeth kicked in by very powerful beings who believe they're saving the world.

Personally, though, I'd already been convinced that sterilization is probably a good idea. This just confirms it. I'd like to see what Ish has to say before taking the plunge, though.

B: Go chat with Ishamal about the dream we just had.

Sogol
Apr 11, 2013

Galileo's Finger
Previously I felt getting Zapped was responsible. In the face of overkill propaganda films I now no longer know.

We never saw any of our children. We never saw the Foe. Possibly our even our Dad. All distorted and manipulated memory, not even terribly well done.

Edit: I also think the PtB have Dad imprisoned, possibly for the good of the world.

Sogol fucked around with this message at 06:01 on Feb 14, 2014

the_steve
Nov 9, 2005

We're always hiring!

Then why did he only show us the endgame? Why did he dump us in the last few plays with nothing more than some vague memories about everyone we ever knew being long dead, but no recollection as to how (with the exception of Danal)

Why not a montage of one of our kids becoming Super Hitler or becoming BFF's with Asherah and setting off the chain reaction that leads us to this point?

JT Jag
Aug 30, 2009

#1 Jaguars Sunk Cost Fallacy-Haver

the_steve posted:

Then why did he only show us the endgame? Why did he dump us in the last few plays with nothing more than some vague memories about everyone we ever knew being long dead, but no recollection as to how (with the exception of Danal)

Why not a montage of one of our kids becoming Super Hitler or becoming BFF's with Asherah and setting off the chain reaction that leads us to this point?
He didn't have to. This is working, isn't it?

Numeron
Mar 23, 2012

A whole new world in
the palm of my hand.
A bunch of people seem to have downplayed the reasons for team no-snip to want kids, and it isnt solely because of their cute rosy cheeks or because we want to play raising kids the CYOA.

Take a look at the world around us and outside the cities it is infested with monsters and evil.

Enkidel is clearly a force of change, and securing a place for that change seems like an important thing to do.

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Theglavwen
Jun 10, 2006

Frankly, I don't know anyone who likes Chinese bronzes, but I have one of the finest collections in the country.

Angela Christine posted:

Lets assume that the dream is not a certainty, but just a possibility.

On one side of the scale we have "slight chance of end of the world". On the other side of the scale we have "I kinda want to be a daddy, if it doesn't interfere with fun stuff too much". Do the scales balance?

I at least don't even want kids, yet am still largely on the no-snipping side, because we simply don't know what we're here for, and it may turn out our blood is pretty damned important. It seems pretty clear that a lot of these same powers who want us sterlized don't even want us here, and fear we're going to break the world or whatnot, yet I don't see a bunch of votes for suicide. I don't want to cut off a source of potential without even knowing what it was intended for, or how it affects the other powers in play.

That dream was some god-damned cheap manipulation. It was full of holes and overdramatics. All the same though, however bitchily he tried to convey it, it was a direct message telling us not to do it. I suppose if there's some other great power out there who disagrees, it's up to them to let us know, because at the moment Enkindel is getting some pretty strong messages from someone who he's been brought up to all-but-worship.

Blegh.

I suppose I'm in favour of Go talk to Ishamal, although I think it's pointless. We already know he wants us sterilized, what could this new info possibly do other than to strengthen his position. To be honest I wouldn't mind talking to Tudiya or Jalitha, but we'd probably get in trouble or something.

Ah well. I suppose I'm not really out to change the world anyway. I still say we could solve this just be sterilizing/capping the power of our newborns right off the bat though. Have kids, keep the potential, just limit the children so they don't run amok.

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