There Bias Two posted:Diogenes, do we know whether or not Declaring our Balls in place of their fathers would be considered insulting in some manner? If a man's own father is dead, another older male relative may do it.
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Feb 17, 2014 01:10
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D. If we are going to do this, we don't do it half-assed. Fully-assed or nothing.
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Feb 17, 2014 01:11
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Diogines posted:It is certainly highly unusual, but it is not something which would be seen as insulting. Tomn fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Feb 17, 2014 |
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Feb 17, 2014 01:14
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I'm genuinely curious to know what the perceived inconsistencies in Smattas' message are. It was a simulation of what he thought the future was going to be like if Enkidel was going to have children. We can't look into the future ourself, so I don't see what Smattas could be inconsistent about. The only 'inconsistency' that constantly gets pointed out is how he failed to see how important Snarls is to us because in his dream Enkidel couldn't remember which siege it was that his dog died in. I can see an argument there, but I think people are reading it the wrong way. Future King Enkidel has been fighting countless battles in a never ending and completely pointless war. The people who still stand fighting do so out of vengeance, a sense of justice, opportunistic greed, or pure madness. The war is all-consuming and has already destroyed everything he ever felt dear. In fact, Zepath was the first city to fall and with it died his mother, wife, adopted sister, brother and father. From that point onwards he's been fighting non-stop battles all over Ur. It's not that he didn't consider Snarls' death unimportant enough to forget; on the contrary, the update says it actually hurt him quite a lot. It's that he's seen so much bloodshed and suffering that all of the atrocities sort of start blending into one single memory where he can't tell apart individual events any more.
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Feb 17, 2014 01:14
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A They stood in the line, shield to shield, and risked their lives to fight the enemies of their city, people, and God. Is that not what men do?
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Feb 17, 2014 01:15
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Tomn posted:...you know, I think we're working at an extremely fundamental disconnect here. Do you think literally all coercion, under any circumstances, is completely unacceptable and makes the coercer fundamentally and irrevocably an rear end in a top hat you are obligated to dislike? That it is completely impossible for someone forcing you to do something to be friendly or likeable? Because if that's the case, let me present a couple of scenarios here. Except in these examples, you know in no uncertain terms what can and will happen. You know at the microchip factory, either through school or workplace orientation (I don't know what it takes to get a job at a microchip factory) that even the slightest bit of contamination can ruin a microchip, because you know how they work. And at the end of the day, when you step out of the microchip room, you get to take the suit off. You aren't stuck wearing it for the rest of your life. At the refinery, you know that fire and oil/fumes make an explosion and will kill you. They don't have to allude to it, because it is common knowledge. Surgery? You are intimately familiar with the hazards, both in germs you can pass on, and bloodborne infections you can be prone to if proper protection is not used. You aren't allowed in that operating room until you are thoroughly armed with knowledge. They don't expect you to successfully perform surgery before deciding to tell you how germs work. In all of your examples, the person in question has been trained, has been given clear information on the nature and risks of the job, and is trusted to utilize common sense and education in order to prevent danger. They aren't given vague threats that "bad things will happen." Anytime they ask a question. They aren't plagued with nightmares about walking alone in a barren hellscape with no recollection of anything except that it's all their fault just because they had a doubt about something that wasn't properly explained to them. Where I work, I come into contact with many different chemicals. Posted in my workplace is a Right to Know station, equipped with a binder containing detailed information on every chemical I may come in contact with. I am expected to use this information in order to perform my job in such a way that I do not endanger myself or others. By the reasoning of the people who think Enkidel should just follow blindly, my employers should automatically assume that I will make mustard gas as soon as I read the sections on bleach and ammonia, and make every effort to hide the binder from me to make sure I can't. Edit: Ooh, missed an update. Voting D+F, also grin and imply that Zviv was merely a warmup. Also ask: How is Jassiel doing? Healing up well? the_steve fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Feb 17, 2014 |
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Feb 17, 2014 01:15
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Zybourne Clock posted:I'm genuinely curious to know what the perceived inconsistencies in Smattas' message are. It was a simulation of what he thought the future was going to be like if Enkidel was going to have children. We can't look into the future ourself, so I don't see what Smattas could be inconsistent about. Many details were glossed over. Many of the figures were shrouded and unclear. Did the dream seem to get more detailed as it went on? When was Snarls described? When was Danal? Is it possible that Snarls died in some less noteworthy way, or some other way entirely? Could he have died before the world went to poo poo? Who may have a longer life span, Snarls, or Tudiya's son? Do you imagine a being who can read your mind(if that was the case) does not know how important Snarls is to you? Perhaps something else more important was directly front of you at the time?
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Feb 17, 2014 01:18
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F Let's make them earn that poo poo.
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Feb 17, 2014 01:19
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A. Dudes, they fearlessly faced down a friggin DEMON. Give them their props. Also, from a political and social standpoint, it will earn us even more love and make for a hell of a party. PS: Also, Naomi is the best. Enki done married good. FoxTerrier fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Feb 17, 2014 |
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Feb 17, 2014 01:20
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Ask them if their fathers have given them permission for us to do it.
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Feb 17, 2014 01:21
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G: No, but not because I believe your actions are not worthy of a man. A Man's Trial is solely between himself and El, and I would like to see you find your own glory in the wilderness.
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Feb 17, 2014 01:21
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E. Let them do it in the proper way.Tomn posted:Point A: Everybody keeps saying that, but would anyone mind showing me exactly where exactly Smythos threatened to kill our family? The only thing Smythos himself ever said was "If you have kids, everything will be destroyed." In the dream itself, it was noted that those who answered our prayers were "impotent" to save our loved ones - unless we were praying to Asherah or something, it seems like the Melachim were not actively hunting down those we loved and would have saved them if they could. Ishamal was the one theorizing that the Melachim might try to kill our children - and that was all before the vision. He wasn't sure they would, though he thought it likely. For that matter, Azzazel directly stated that they had "better options" than hurting Naomi, so it was only the WMD kids that were at risk. We got a vision which ended with Smythos nuking the entire Earth with a message "Totally your fault, fucker". Of course we can discuss who exactly is our Foe and if it is the Melachim who sent it, or if they only passively-aggressively allowed the world to be overrun because of our decision, or even if they are unable to interfere. They haven't deigned to give us any information we could use to know their intention. Given the fact that their servant and apologist suggests they could murder our children (or rather order him to murder our children - he said he doesn't want to slay infants), but isn't sure, I don't see any reason to assume their goodwill. quote:Point B: Ishamal did NOT get pissed we didn't immediately agree. He argued, pleaded, made his case, allowed us to consult other powers, even ones he thought unreliable, let us sleep on it, and as far as could be told was ultimately willing to allow us to have kids in the end if that's what we chose. He only got inflexible once we told him we got a direct vision from the gods that having kids would end the world, since before that he was merely guessing that our kids would be "generally bad" instead of a world-ending threat. Bareen also started from arguing and pleading. She also allowed us to consult Barkof. The fact that Ishamal started from softer means of persuasion and gradually grew more pushy because we were stubborn doesn't prove he is trustworthy. Remember, you are talking about the man who were promising us answers for several years and just told us we ate irresponsible and don't deserve to know poo poo. Also, he did get pissy because we were having thoughts he considered improper. Thoughts that maybe his bosses who ordered our sterilization don't have our best interests in mind are totally unacceptable in his opinion. Our true friend. quote:Point C: Missed the point of that quoted paragraph, eh? I don't think I did. This "clamoring defiance was" in our thoughts.
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Feb 17, 2014 01:24
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Numeron posted:Ask them if their fathers have given them permission for us to do it. Uriah says "We did not ask. Surely they will be honored if the King's son stands in their stead." Diogines fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Feb 17, 2014 |
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Feb 17, 2014 01:24
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There Bias Two posted:G: No, but not because I believe your actions are not worthy of a man. A Man's Trial is solely between himself and El, and I would like to see you find your own glory in the wilderness. I could go either way here, though. Tomn fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Feb 17, 2014 |
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Feb 17, 2014 01:30
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G, Do not refuse them, but advise against forgoing the trial. "You have followed me into battle and shed your blood with mine, you are men and if you truly wish to cheat yourselves out of the trial how can I deny you? The trial of manhood is not a punishment but a privilege. It is uncomfortable, and you will face dangers, but too much comfort makes a man soft, and the dangers will be nothing close to what we have faced together. You will learn much on your trial, how to find food, how to make basic tools, but more important than this, you will learn about yourself what kind of man you really are, it is a lesson that can only be learned in solitude. If you want me to go to the temple this second and declare each of you, it will be my great honour to do so. But that feeling of returning to the city, the pride as your offering is placed on the altar, and knowing you did it all on your own. It will be one of the greatest moments of your life. I would ask you not to rob yourself of that moment, but whether or not I declare it, you are men, you must decide for yourselves." jazzyhattrick fucked around with this message at 01:34 on Feb 17, 2014 |
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Feb 17, 2014 01:30
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Diogines posted:You have a good breakfast consisting of five or six eggs, a loaf of bread and only half a roasted chicken. Huh, now I'm actually a little worried for Enkindel, aside from the whole loaf of bread that's not so far off from what I might eat for a meal on an active day. Enkindel's coming down into merely Olympic athelete levels of nutrition, super swimmer instead of Superman.  Abstaining on the vote for the moment, I want to go G or F, say they have to finish the whole route, but each time I try it sounds needlessly pedantic; what will they achieve in another month with us that's greater than what they've done already?
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Feb 17, 2014 01:36
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G. "I will happily declare you all men, if that is what you ask of me. You've more than earned that right by my standard. But if you want glory - real glory- that will last the ages, I suggest you also do the rite the old way. The real surprise lays just two weeks south of Zepath". Question for Uriah: "Would you happen to know exactly why your brother hates me so much?" And another: "Hey Uriah, do you know any embarrassing secrets that your brother keeps?"
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Feb 17, 2014 01:36
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Small bit of additional information: Uriah and Jassiel both came explicitly to find a noteworthy offering fighting for you. They intended to earn their manhood along the way, with you. So there are certainly several things unorthodox about this, but the fact they were not alone is probably not one of them. They came for that purpose and you know that they did. Still, you are not their fathers and they do not have a noteworthy material offering.
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Feb 17, 2014 01:36
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Diogines posted:Uriah says "We did not ask. Surely they will Dude... then no. If it doesn't violate some cultural rule, ask the men if this plan sounds ok: Go use the silver you earned to buy a sacrifice. We go with your fathers to the temple of El and do the usual, and I will act as a witness to your deeds and say how all of you fought bravely against a horrible demon. Deadly Ham Sandwich fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Feb 17, 2014 |
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Feb 17, 2014 01:37
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Remove the word "not", ugh, edited ><.
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Feb 17, 2014 01:48
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F I almost caved for Jaasiel, but....no. I cannot. They haven't really done what is needed to complete the New Old School Manhood Trial (NOSMT) The basic tenants of the NOSMT as I understand them are: 1) Survive 30 days in harsh conditions... - FAIL, it has been less than that. 2) ...with little to no assistance... - FAIL, however given that is impossible while traveling as a Ball, I can understand not passing this part IF the other tenants are carried out in a more spectacular fashion. A longer trip, or a crazy sacrifice for El 3) ...and bring back something worthy as a sacrifice to El. - FAIL, they have no sacrifice. Sure, they could buy a sacrifice with their silver, OR place their silver directly on the altar - but that does not seem in good faith here. Buying a cow seems like being asked to draw your best possible painting and deciding to trace it. No effort. Placing the silver directly seems better - willingly giving up what could be a few years hardwork - but was wholesale slaughtering goblins a worthy test, a worthy sacrifice to El? Enkidel fought a demon jackal barehanded and pearl dived, poking Eyescream in the eye and taunting Ashera in the process - hard earned sacrifices. Besides Jaasiel, did any of them truly work for their sacrifice? At best they can say fought the demon - if we had fought the jackal and then Aaron swooped in to kill it - would that have been worthy? While they are brave Balls, and truly deserve their silver and respects of the average man for what they accomplished - they have not really done what is needed to pass the NOSMT. If we want to ensure the next generation, our generation, can stand against the coming storm - they must understand what sacrifice and hardship truly means. We are cheating them if we declare what they have done enough.
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Feb 17, 2014 01:50
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D
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Feb 17, 2014 01:51
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Welp, since we can't have kids of our own it's time to kill these guys' fathers and adopt them as our own! E No if they want to be declared they can do this in the proper manner and face down monsters in the wild on their own.
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Feb 17, 2014 02:03
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Task Manager posted:[B]F Well, we're also a magical hero who can somehow slow time and call upon the power of the Gods, and to all appearances they... can't. The old-school ritual was quite obviously to call out the 'bloodedness' of the individuals, cloaked in tradition.
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Feb 17, 2014 02:04
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A Darker Porpoise posted:Welp, since we can't have kids of our own it's time to kill these guys' fathers and adopt them as our own! We took on these people though with the understanding that they were coming along to use this as their manhood trials. It's going to seem pretty dishonest to turn around now and say "actually nah, psych, if you want to be Men you'd better leave my team immediately, thanks for helping me carry all that loot though."
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Feb 17, 2014 02:08
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Canuck-Errant posted:Well, we're also a magical hero who can somehow slow time and call upon the power of the Gods, and to all appearances they... can't. The old-school ritual was quite obviously to call out the 'bloodedness' of the individuals, cloaked in tradition. True. I guess I still expect a bit more from them, especially Uriah. For the blooded farmers - I feel at least killing a minatour as a part of the group, and being out there for at least 30 days, is worthy. Bring back a bit from a monster they helped kill, or carry their offering as Tudiya offered us with the statue - 11 days and goblins and no sacrifice should not count. For Uriah especially, he should know better - he is easily our equal in terms of when we passed our test - he should be doing more.
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Feb 17, 2014 02:08
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You know, come to think of it, compromise candidate. I'm a flip-flopper! G: Tell them we would be glad to Declare for them and prove witness to their deeds and offerings (alone or not, they DID face down a loving demon), but the offering is only part of the trial - they must also survive on their own, as per the trial. Only once they have gone through the month in the wild and so heard the voice of El within their secret hearts can they be Declared. And if they should happen to pick up an offering along the way while in the wild, so much the better - together with the glories and trophies they pick up on our hunts, truly shall they be known to be worthy before El. Everything below this point is more Great Ball-Snip Debate, read at your own risk. **** the_steve posted:By the reasoning of the people who think Enkidel should just follow blindly, my employers should automatically assume that I will make mustard gas as soon as I read the sections on bleach and ammonia, and make every effort to hide the binder from me to make sure I can't. First off, I'd like to point out that those quoted bits were very specifically intended to be a response towards a guy who, if I followed his chain of logic correctly, believed that all of those were examples of immoral coercion. It was not intended to be a catch-all response regarding the Great Ball-Snip Debate. That being understood, I think this got missed during the frenzy of questioning and debate. Diogines posted:
Ishamal no longer considers ignorance an effective strategy to prevent problems, and is willing to begin our tutelage. Other than lost time, that isn't really an issue. The problem we have here is the fact that Smythos wasn't explaining himself, but that's essentially an incredibly scaled-up version of a veteran line manager seeing what you're doing and yelling "Wait, you're making a mistake, put that down right now or we're all going to die!" Are such circumstances really the best time to ask him for a full scientific explanation and breakdown on why the two chemicals we're holding will cause disaster if mixed, and is it really wise to assume he's mistaken and insist on going ahead with it anyways? Edit: Especially because Smytho's message didn't come out of left field. Ishamal was ALREADY explaining why and how in theory, having children would almost certainly lead to the world becoming a worse place before the dream, even if he didn't know how much worse. When Smythos confirms this to be so to a degree Ishamal had not expected, do you really need an exact breakdown when the basic overview of how problems are both possible and probable are already in place? Tomn fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Feb 17, 2014 |
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Feb 17, 2014 02:13
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Task Manager posted:F The essence of the thing is to endure hardship like a man. To understand what life is like outside the the soft cities, like a man. For many unblooded men, killing a single goblin would be plenty good enough. Each of our men killed a dozen. They also fought a demon, something most men will never see. That's pretty good. I mean, that's way more manly than the usual fake camping trip plus purchased sacrifice. It is impressive. They can do better. Our group campaign will totally count, no need to go alone. But I think the element of time is important. Sleeping under the stars for a month gives you time to think and reflect. Gives you enough time to get really tired of sleeping rough, and really appreciate the gifts of civilization.
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Feb 17, 2014 02:24
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Tomn posted:You know, come to think of it, compromise candidate. I'm a flip-flopper! I like this. I was pretty doubtful of the idea that people could make our monster hunting into their manhood trial, because the nature of the trial was so different. It seemed, to me, that you were supposed to show yourself able to survive on your own, to be able to support yourself, and make an offering worthy of El atop that. Big difference from "go on a dangerous mission with a number of other people and a full pack of supplies." What we gave them was kind of like the old "camping trip with an older brother", just exaggerated in danger and power of the older brother. For now, I'm voting this incarnation of Plan Tomn. I wouldn't be surprised if Tomn or I change our votes in the future.
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Feb 17, 2014 02:25
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Angela Christine posted:The essence of the thing is to endure hardship like a man. To understand what life is like outside the the soft cities, like a man. For the unblooded one goblin likely would be enough. Most of our men are beefy Blooded farmers at least though. I agree what they have accomplished as a slightly better than average man is impressive. They have their silver and the tale itself to show for it, which will surely make others look up to them for the rest of their lives (or at least get a few free drinks from it); it just isn't enough to pass the trial in my opinion. It's splitting hairs, but if they would have done all this on day 50, and then came home? I probably would have said let em be men, even if they buy the sacrifice. As it is now they deserve the respect of accomplishing this feat, but they haven't met the goals of the trial. That length of time away from the city seems important, especially since they are well stocked and well geared. Task Manager fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Feb 17, 2014 |
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Feb 17, 2014 02:31
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Never mind. These boys came with us explicitly because they wanted to count it as their manhood trial. So... no. Deadly Ham Sandwich fucked around with this message at 03:09 on Feb 17, 2014 |
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Feb 17, 2014 02:32
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Tomn posted:You know, come to think of it, compromise candidate. I'm a flip-flopper! I would go with this too, as it largely aligns with my thinking - but we took these men on with us knowing they expected this to count for their manhood trial. It's lovely to turn around and now say they need to go back out alone after this trip or it doesn't count. We should allow them to forgo the solo aspect, if they meet the time requirement and bring a worthy sacrifice, in my opinion.
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Feb 17, 2014 02:35
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Tomn posted:G: Tell them we would be glad to Declare for them and prove witness to their deeds and offerings (alone or not, they DID face down a loving demon), but the offering is only part of the trial - they must also survive on their own, as per the trial. Only once they have gone through the month in the wild and so heard the voice of El within their secret hearts can they be Declared. And if they should happen to pick up an offering along the way while in the wild, so much the better - together with the glories and trophies they pick up on our hunts, truly shall they be known to be worthy before El.  here.
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Feb 17, 2014 02:49
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Task Manager posted:I would go with this too, as it largely aligns with my thinking - but we took these men on with us knowing they expected this to count for their manhood trial. It's lovely to turn around and now say they need to go back out alone after this trip or it doesn't count. We should allow them to forgo the solo aspect, if they meet the time requirement and bring a worthy sacrifice, in my opinion. I think they'll probably be willing to understand if we couch it in terms of what is needed to meet El's favor and what is spiritually proper. We should definitely give them the chance to leave right now on their manhood trial, though, if they wanted, instead of sticking with us full term. We'll have a place for them when they rejoin us as men.
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Feb 17, 2014 02:50
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voting A
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Feb 17, 2014 02:53
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G. Use all of the silver you earned to buy a sacrifice. Bring your fathers to the temple. I will declare you in your fathers stead with their approval.
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Feb 17, 2014 02:55
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A. They have done enough. Their silver could be their offering. Or hell they might wait to make an offering until they have something to burn.
Big Bug Hug fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Feb 17, 2014 |
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Feb 17, 2014 03:01
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Tomn posted:You know, come to think of it, compromise candidate. I'm a flip-flopper! You realize Declaring for them means legally recognizing them as adults right? So you're voting to say that they're adults...but not really jk? Instead of the task you fulfilled that shows you can do a man's work you have to do this other, less relevant, task that shows you could do the work of a man from a long time ago instead? Seems to be missing the point for me, I think it misses substance of the thing for the form. Edit: Basically, the way I see it, the old manhood trial was excellent for a group of hunter-gatherers from a small settlement because it shows you can leave your community with nothing and come back with something. But that doesn't really make sense for a bunch of people living in a city. Our New Manhood Trial shows that you can leave the city under arms and fulfill your manly military duty as part of the group, something FAR more relevant to a bronze age civilization. paragon1 fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Feb 17, 2014 |
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Feb 17, 2014 03:04
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F + G "You have an entire month. There is no rush. I am sure you can get more worthy offerings in that time." + Also voting for Jassei, our beat up friend, getting declared a man. His trial is over. We killed a pretty awesome jackal monster in less than a month, which would have been a great offering. Then we went to the loving ocean and got pearls. I am sure these boys and get more glory within the month. Deadly Ham Sandwich fucked around with this message at 06:05 on Feb 17, 2014 |
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Feb 17, 2014 03:10
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Team I dunno about the vote yet, but Yay Naomi! (Maybe she will pray and pray and pray to El for children and then a Miracle will occur and then the World will end.) In the meantime: The Frippery Mt. Har Ministry of Dreams and Visions, Enforcement Division, Fear Us Corps Scene: a vast hall full of flickering images and crystals populated by many-fingered, winged beings all stressed and scurrying from place to place. Cubicles. A few offices around the edges. Unamed worker A: what we got? Unnamed worker B: I dunno, some sorta unlicensed super punk, unsanctioned Name shouting and Smiting. Higher ups want him scared shitless. Wait... This report says he already is shitless. Hmmm... Whatya think we oughta use? A: How about the insect or frog plague? That one just always creeps me right out. B: hmmm.... :reading file: I don't think so. There is something weird about this one and it's been flagged for some reason. I think we could go full bore Apocalypse Despair ending with the Sword and not be too far wrong here. A: Really? You don't think that is overkill? Ok then. Don't we need the link module for that one to fill in details as we go? Did we get that fixed? I think Data sent us a report last eon saying it had a 70% drop in Despair effectiveness without credible feedback loops. B: Yeh, even with good feedback it can be iffy. That's why it's good to couple it with the Sword. A: Alright then. Is this a live Viewing or does it go in the can for later? B: Apparently there is some sort entertaining kerfuffle up by Ibleam so we will lose ratings if we stream it now. Let's can it. A: Good. Means we gotta layer in the Sense of Being Watched, be ready with some Ominous Clouds while we wait to see what this poo poo does after we lay this on him. Any auditors on this one? We ready? B: Yeh, I pulled the files and effects. Looks like we may have to copy a Field Agent, but no live audit is indicated. Think we are good to go. This guy is gunna poo poo himself. A: Ha! Man, I love my job. I used to be in Crop Rotation and Fertility. Occasional good stuff in Fertility or a Flood here and there, but mostly just boring as all hell. B: I know whatcha mean. Let's do this and get out of here. Big Offering going on in Baitel later. I hear their going to have ribs. Sogol fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Feb 17, 2014 |
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Feb 17, 2014 03:16
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