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Cyrano4747 posted:It wouldn't mater. As a pure nut cutting practicality, (IE ignoring politics and people having to admit they were mistaken) the F35 could be replaced with some combo of existing airframes and F-22 production restart, if you really want yer stealth planes. When you consider pilot training as the key component of western air superiority, you could stick to the designs of the cold war and still be better than any (real) possible air force opponent. On the other hand - just coming out and saying "We're not buying it, it's a goddamn travesty" might be a nice way to start reforming procurement. If you were a president so inclined.
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Feb 18, 2014 01:26
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The problems the F-35 has aren't the showstopper kind. They're more of the "this will cost more money that we thought and take more time than we hoped" type problems. IE, same as the problems at this point in the development of every aircraft procurement program, ever. The biggest difference now is just how much media it's getting. The F-35's got nothing on how rocky the R&D for the F-14 was. Most of the specific issues 60 minutes harped on is erroneous or a non-issue. The helmet mounted sight for instance. There are problems with it, but nothing that can't be fixed with time & money. When it's perfected, it will give revolutionary SA; until then, pilots have to slum it by flying it the same way they'd fly an F-22A. For those who missed it, you can watch the segment here: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/f-35-joint-strike-fighter-60-minutes/ grover fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Feb 18, 2014 |
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Feb 18, 2014 01:31
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grover posted:The problems the F-35 has aren't the showstopper kind. They're more of the "this will cost more money that we thought and take more time that we'd hoped" type problems. IE, same as the problems at this point in the development of every aircraft procurement program, ever. The biggest difference now is just how much media it's getting. And the number of roles it's supposed to fill. When the airframe's responsibility is limited to something like 'all-weather bomber' or 'carrier-based interceptor' design whiffles are more minor; when it's 'every air role for 15 different air forces' it gets worse press. Nebakenezzer posted:On the other hand - just coming out and saying "We're not buying it, it's a goddamn travesty" might be a nice way to start reforming procurement. If you were a president so inclined. Not to start a huff, but I don't think it's the (US) President's call, it's Congress's. Same with all the other procurement boondoggles. Probably different for the other countries ensnared by the F-35 whirlwind. Snowdens Secret fucked around with this message at 01:48 on Feb 18, 2014 |
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Feb 18, 2014 01:44
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Snowdens Secret posted:And the number of roles it's supposed to fill. When the airframe's responsibility is limited to something like 'all-weather bomber' or 'carrier-based interceptor' design whiffles are more minor; when it's 'every air role for 15 different air forces' it gets worse press. Bingo. Comparing a troubled interceptor to a troubled "literally every fixed-wing air combat platform in the US except raptors, UAVs, and some weird one-offs like special operations gunships" is a bit ridiculous. If the Army was replacing every single IFV, Troop carrier, tank, and artillery piece with one snazzy vehicle, and that vehicle had serious loving problems during procurement meeting deadlines and staying on budget, we'd hear about it. A lot. Also, the F-14 served for 32 years, while they're talking about using the F-35 for like fifty years, AFAIK. edit: oh, and also big bombers. At least the F-35 won't also supposedly be a global strategic strike bomber. mlmp08 fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Feb 18, 2014 |
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Feb 18, 2014 02:45
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mlmp08 posted:If the Army was replacing every single IFV, Troop carrier, tank, and artillery piece with one snazzy vehicle, and that vehicle had serious loving problems during procurement meeting deadlines and staying on budget, we'd hear about it. A lot. You mean Future Combat Systems? 
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Feb 18, 2014 02:54
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Mortabis posted:You mean Future Combat Systems? Hey, that was at least like ten different vehicles to replace all those things I listed. And we had the good sense to cancel it!
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Feb 18, 2014 02:56
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mlmp08 posted:Bingo. Comparing a troubled interceptor to a troubled "literally every fixed-wing air combat platform in the US except raptors, UAVs, and some weird one-offs like special operations gunships" is a bit ridiculous. If the Army was replacing every single IFV, Troop carrier, tank, and artillery piece with one snazzy vehicle, and that vehicle had serious loving problems during procurement meeting deadlines and staying on budget, we'd hear about it. A lot. Also, the F-14 served for 32 years, while they're talking about using the F-35 for like fifty years, AFAIK. Also if the F-14 turned out to be a failure, there were other options available, even if they weren't as good as the Tomcat program was promising. Hornet, F-16 variant, F-15 variant, or...hell, back then you could start a whole new program and have something in the air in less than two loving decades. The F-35 won't fail because A-it's WAY too big to fail politically and B-there's literally nothing else except to keep flying the same 1970s designs. Which we have to do anyway.
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Feb 18, 2014 03:40
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Godholio posted:Also if the F-14 turned out to be a failure, there were other options available, even if they weren't as good as the Tomcat program was promising. poo poo, the F-14 WAS the backup to a program that failed. A program that was supposed to combine a strike fighter for the USAF and a fleet defense fighter for the Navy. A program that ran into issues from being overweight. Now where have we heard that before?
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Feb 18, 2014 04:03
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I hope we get an F-35 flavoured version of this in the near future.
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Feb 18, 2014 05:00
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mlmp08 posted:If the Army was replacing every single IFV, Troop carrier, tank, and artillery piece with one snazzy vehicle, and that vehicle had serious loving problems during procurement meeting deadlines and staying on budget, we'd hear about it. A lot. Hmmm, I could've sworn that had happe .... yeah
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Feb 18, 2014 05:03
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Snowdens Secret posted:Hmmm, I could've sworn that had happe I thought about preemptively pointing out that the Bradley, as dumb as poo poo as its procurement was, STILL did not have the same goals of one platform for all that the F-35 has, but figured it was unnecessary. I was wrong.
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Feb 18, 2014 05:04
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That was a jokepost, but that doesn't keep the Bradley from being a shining example that mission creep isn't restricted to airplanes. We didn't rope our allies into abandoning IFV development to buy our Bradleys, either.
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Feb 18, 2014 05:09
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Well, the Bradley turned out...usable in the end, right? Although I think I've heard it's used more in the "ATGM Carrier" role than the "IFV/Cavalry Scout Vehicle" role? vvvvvv Wait, what?! That sounds like some kind of conspiracy thriller airplane novel!
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Feb 18, 2014 05:29
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I feel obligated to mention again the fact that Ralph Peters wrote a book about how hosed up the JSF procurement was in 1999. Among other things it has a corrupt PMC, a cameo by the French and a false flag bombing of a LockMart plant.
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Feb 18, 2014 05:29
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Blistex posted:I hope we get an F-35 flavoured version of this in the near future. gently caress I love that movie. Unrecognized classic. quote:Major General Partridge: I'm not going to sit here and tell you the Paveway never missed. quote:[after redesigning the Bradley to carry a gun turret] quote:[the generals want to add a rapid-fire cannon to the Bradley] quote:Col. Robert Laurel Smith: In summation, what you have before you is... quote:Major Sayers: The Brits did a study on aluminum.
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Feb 18, 2014 05:42
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Davin Valkri posted:Well, the Bradley turned out...usable in the end, right? Although I think I've heard it's used more in the "ATGM Carrier" role than the "IFV/Cavalry Scout Vehicle" role?
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Feb 18, 2014 12:01
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Speaking of air forces and cold war, there's a funny story in the news here. Some days ago, an Ethiopian Airlines 767 flying to Rome was hijacked by the co-pilot, who fearing for his own safety in Ethiopia, wanted to land and ask asylum in Switzerland. Anyway, as soon as it appeared evident that there was something wrong, italian Typhoons intercepted it and escorted the airplane to the french border, where french Mirage 2000 were waiting and which in turn escorted the 767 to Geneve (Switzerland). No swiss military jet was to be found at the border, before or after the accident. The reason? Swiss air force, due to budget cuts, operates only in office hours: 8am-12am and 1:30pm-5pm Now that's some solid airspace security!
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Feb 18, 2014 12:32
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Cippalippus posted:Speaking of air forces and cold war, there's a funny story in the news here. Some days ago, an Ethiopian Airlines 767 flying to Rome was hijacked by the co-pilot, who fearing for his own safety in Ethiopia, wanted to land and ask asylum in Switzerland. Anyway, as soon as it appeared evident that there was something wrong, italian Typhoons intercepted it and escorted the airplane to the french border, where french Mirage 2000 were waiting and which in turn escorted the 767 to Geneve (Switzerland). No swiss military jet was to be found at the border, before or after the accident. Russia did a mock attack on Sweden last year and the only response was from some Danish F-16s http://www.defensenews.com/article/20130502/DEFREG/304290022/Russian-Attack-Raises-Questions-Over-Sweden-s-Readiness .
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Feb 18, 2014 13:48
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Cippalippus posted:Speaking of air forces and cold war, there's a funny story in the news here. Some days ago, an Ethiopian Airlines 767 flying to Rome was hijacked by the co-pilot, who fearing for his own safety in Ethiopia, wanted to land and ask asylum in Switzerland. Anyway, as soon as it appeared evident that there was something wrong, italian Typhoons intercepted it and escorted the airplane to the french border, where french Mirage 2000 were waiting and which in turn escorted the 767 to Geneve (Switzerland). No swiss military jet was to be found at the border, before or after the accident. I guess that is why you are buying Gripen, since it is such a success for keeping Swedish Air Space Secure. Fake edit: Oh wait..... ^^^^^^ Say hello to the Swedish military complex.
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Feb 18, 2014 14:14
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It has nothing to do with any particular airframe of course, hell, even if you dot your country with MiG-21 bases you could run a fantastic air intercept program.
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Feb 18, 2014 14:33
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The difference between the swedish and the swiss case is clear; in the swiss accident, the Swiss air force openly admits that it only works in office hours, which is the dumbest statement ever. Not that Switzerland has anything to fear from the neighbours, but then again why spend money on the air force at all?
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Feb 18, 2014 14:57
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Continuity of skill, although "office hours" probably doesn't do much for practicing night flying.
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Feb 18, 2014 15:05
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Cippalippus posted:The difference between the swedish and the swiss case is clear; in the swiss accident, the Swiss air force openly admits that it only works in office hours, which is the dumbest statement ever. Not that Switzerland has anything to fear from the neighbours, but then again why spend money on the air force at all? Because politicians are the ficklest of idiots imaginable, and you want to do everything possible to keep some institutional knowledge alive even if you've essentially scrapped whatever capability it is you're talking about. All it takes is a change in ruling party or coalition and the Swiss could end up with a bunch of politicians hooting about how they need to beef up their air intercept capabilities. It's a lot easier, cheaper, and faster to scale up and revive a neutered, gutted force that at least still employes people who know how to make an AF do its thing than it is to completely reboot from the ground up.
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Feb 18, 2014 15:06
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The Bradley talk made me curious about how many passengers typical APCs carry (anywhere from 7-11) and I stumbled across the German Wiesel AWC  .Is Wiesel German for adorable? it means Weasel     
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Feb 18, 2014 17:26
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I like that this one has the map symbol painted on. Maybe we can confuse the enemy into thinking this is a video game and they'll rage quit?
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Feb 18, 2014 17:33
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You mean where it shows that this leFlaSys Ozelot is part of Flugabwehrraketenbatterie 300? Those word salads will make em ragequit even harder.
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Feb 18, 2014 17:41
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It looks like it can alternate as a submarine.
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Feb 18, 2014 18:04
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Blistex posted:The Bradley talk made me curious about how many passengers typical APCs carry (anywhere from 7-11) and I stumbled across the German Wiesel AWC I thought I wanted that Quad/Jet ski thing in the premiere of Top Gear, but I was wrong, I want this. e: holy poo poo, it weighs less than a armored hummer
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Feb 18, 2014 18:27
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Cardiac posted:It looks like it can alternate as a submarine. 
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Feb 18, 2014 18:37
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Mr. Funny Pants posted:I got to see a lot of historical events and social trends that you young people didn't. Hearing from people who were born after I graduated high school in no way reminds me of death's cold hand getting ever nearer, the stench of his breath raising the hair on my arms. Nor do I hear his smirks at every lost memory or decline in all manner of physical abilities. I saw the wall come down while in a college dorm that had cable. I went to tell the other students but none of them knew what the Berlin Wall was, or why it was important. That my generation was inferior is one of the things that makes me believe in progress 
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Feb 18, 2014 23:53
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I knew a guy in the Berlin Brigade when the wall "fell". He said it was pretty loving surreal.
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Feb 18, 2014 23:57
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fap fap SPLOOGE posted:
Your generation was nothing special in that regard. The last time I bothered to ask a classroom full of students if they knew there was a civil war in Syria only 3 out of ~25 raised their hands. The vast majority of people are deeply ignorant of what goes on outside their immediate surroundings, their immediate family and friends, and whatever aspects of contemporary culture they follow and engage with. It's been that way for basically forever and probably will remain that way for just as long.
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Feb 18, 2014 23:58
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FrozenVent posted:I like that this one has the map symbol painted on. Maybe we can confuse the enemy into thinking this is a video game and they'll rage quit? Either that or the new Wargame has great graphics. I can't stress how fun W:ALB is. Also, on dumb people, there was a cute blond that worked with me. Early 20's, probably born around 1990. I got talking with another guy about the Cold War and she was asking general questions about it, so one of my answers had Warsaw Pact in it. "What's the Warsaw Pact?" Honest question, but funny and sad at the same time. So we were giving her poo poo about it when an older guy walks past and asks about the joke. We tell him, he had no idea. So the question goes around the office, like half had no idea. My spirit in humanity was broken that day. Seizure Meat fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Feb 19, 2014 |
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Feb 19, 2014 00:01
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I once had a girl ask me if Italy was an axis power. In a history class. About World War 2. Which was a junior level research paper class required to graduate.Peven Stan posted:Makes me wonder how effective those systems would be against actual opponents instead of lazy drones flying in a straight line This is from a while ago, but AMD systems get plenty of testing against aggressively maneuvering aircraft as well as aircraft employing countermeasures. Also, FWIW, the F-18 Patriot killed in a frat saw the launch and tried to evade. mlmp08 fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Feb 19, 2014 |
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Feb 19, 2014 00:07
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mlmp08 posted:I once had a girl ask me if Italy was an axis power. To be fair, it doesn't have a yes-or-no answer.
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Feb 19, 2014 00:59
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Nebakenezzer posted:I thought I wanted that Quad/Jet ski thing in the premiere of Top Gear, but I was wrong, I want this. If you are familiar with Canada's "15 year rule" when it comes to importing cars, this is more possible than you might think. There's at least one guy in BC who putts around the backwoods in some kind of ex-Soviet 8x8 SSM carrier that he imported this way. Spend a couple grand for shipping, rig up some taillights and turn signals, get classic car insurance and you can put a plate on it and drive it to work every day.
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Feb 19, 2014 01:16
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Throatwarbler posted:If you are familiar with Canada's "15 year rule" when it comes to importing cars, this is more possible than you might think. There's at least one guy in BC who putts around the backwoods in some kind of ex-Soviet 8x8 SSM carrier that he imported this way. Spend a couple grand for shipping, rig up some taillights and turn signals, get classic car insurance and you can put a plate on it and drive it to work every day. If you do this, be sure to visit Doccers's house and take a photo. It'd be better with the 8x8 SSM carrier. 
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Feb 19, 2014 01:22
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I will drive to work in one of those screw drive things
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Feb 19, 2014 01:24
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I'd find it really hard to resist the urge to build a mockup missile for my SSM carrier if I had one.
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Feb 19, 2014 01:26
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300 level poly-sci class. A woman in my class raises her hand and says, "Now, World War One, that was the one that was about Hitler, right?"
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Feb 19, 2014 02:21
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