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SlayVus
Jul 10, 2009
Grimey Drawer
So I was doing some reading about Sous Vide for when I eventually get an Anova and I came across something a little disturbing about the use of plastics for sous vide.

I came across these two articles
http://www.chow.com/food-news/107898/cooking-sous-vide-in-plasticis-it-safe/
http://nomnompaleo.com/post/12463202060/cooking-sous-vide-plastic-safety

Basically, it boils down to this. Unless you're using FoodSaver bags, silicone bags, the SousVide Supreme bags, or other EA/BPA free plastics; estrogen is leaching from the plastic into your food.

I don't think this has been discussed in this thread and I'm not sure how common knowledge it is even for the professionals.

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No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!

SlayVus posted:

So I was doing some reading about Sous Vide for when I eventually get an Anova and I came across something a little disturbing about the use of plastics for sous vide.

I came across these two articles
http://www.chow.com/food-news/107898/cooking-sous-vide-in-plasticis-it-safe/
http://nomnompaleo.com/post/12463202060/cooking-sous-vide-plastic-safety

Basically, it boils down to this. Unless you're using FoodSaver bags, silicone bags, the SousVide Supreme bags, or other EA/BPA free plastics; estrogen is leaching from the plastic into your food.

I don't think this has been discussed in this thread and I'm not sure how common knowledge it is even for the professionals.
Most of the bags you see these days are BPA-free. I know my VacMaster bags are. Ziploc bags appear to be as well. Still worth checking to make sure when you're making your purchase, though.

SlayVus
Jul 10, 2009
Grimey Drawer

No Wave posted:

Most of the bags you see these days are BPA-free. I know my VacMaster bags are. Ziploc bags appear to be as well. Still worth checking to make sure when you're making your purchase, though.

EA free is different from BPA. EA releases estrogen.

deimos
Nov 30, 2006

Forget it man this bat is whack, it's got poobrain!

SlayVus posted:

EA free is different from BPA. EA releases estrogen.

And most silicone leaches endocrine disruptors. v0v

e: And while we're at it so does everything else in your loving house.

deimos fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Feb 21, 2014

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!

SlayVus posted:

EA free is different from BPA. EA releases estrogen.
Ah werd.

Most SV bags including my VacMasters are made out of polyethylene and nylon (like the foodsaver and SVS are). You can find stuff online that says that even polyethylene has EA but it's fringe-y enough for now that I'm willing to keep using my puddler.

deimos
Nov 30, 2006

Forget it man this bat is whack, it's got poobrain!
Also after a cursory glance of the paper cited, they seem to stress the poo poo out of the resins, it seems more targeted to "whole chain" issues rather than bagging my veggies.

If anything silicone might be more harmful because you're reusing and I don't think there's been any studies of leaching-over-time.

Chemmy
Feb 4, 2001

I personally trust the science of someone writing a blog about eating like a caveman.

dotster
Aug 28, 2013

deimos posted:

Also after a cursory glance of the paper cited, they seem to stress the poo poo out of the resins, it seems more targeted to "whole chain" issues rather than bagging my veggies.

If anything silicone might be more harmful because you're reusing and I don't think there's been any studies of leaching-over-time.

Well it is going to break down over time, you are either going to release more of the bad stuff as it gets older or it is possible that after a while all the nasty stuff will have leached out and you might be better off. It might turn out that you need to boil your re-usable bags for a while before you use them to get the bad stuff out.

It is also possible that risk standpoint that the stuff we are eating is far worse for us than the bit of contaminates that enter the food during processing and cooking and we are obsessing.

dotster
Aug 28, 2013

Chemmy posted:

I personally trust the science of someone writing a blog about eating like a caveman.

This made me laugh, I trust her recipe for cooking chicken thighs though.

Chemmy
Feb 4, 2001

I dunno, it's hard to be upset about plastics killing me when it comes from someone who thinks wheat is killing them.

I don't doubt plastics leech, it's probably not a good idea to eat 72hr short ribs three meals a day.

The average sous vide cook time is what, an hour?

dotster
Aug 28, 2013

Chemmy posted:

I dunno, it's hard to be upset about plastics killing me when it comes from someone who thinks wheat is killing them.

I don't doubt plastics leech, it's probably not a good idea to eat 72hr short ribs three meals a day.

The average sous vide cook time is what, an hour?

And most of the time it is 130F-140F so it is not like we are boiling plastic. I don't want to make judgements about people because of what they eat or don't eat but she is not an expert in the field she is talking about so it must be taken with a grain of salt.

deimos
Nov 30, 2006

Forget it man this bat is whack, it's got poobrain!

Chemmy posted:

I personally trust the science of someone writing a blog about eating like a caveman.

Well, the "source" seems like sound science. Pubmed is down it seems but I think this is the correct link

deimos fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Feb 21, 2014

EAT THE EGGS RICOLA
May 29, 2008

Someone go find an article about this on Natural News so we can have a definitive answer.

dotster
Aug 28, 2013

deimos posted:

Well, the "source" seems like sound science. Pubmed is down it seems but I think this is the correct link

From the abstract for the paper.

quote:

...our data suggest that EA-free plastic products exposed to common-use stresses and extracted by saline and ethanol solvents could be cost-effectively made on a commercial scale and thereby eliminate a potential health risk posed by most currently available plastic products that leach chemicals having EA into food products.

Even if she has a valid source it is very difficult for a layperson to interpret scientific data and properly explain the actual or practical amount of risk, it is often very hard even for scientists who don't focus on specific study in their fields. I am not saying that it is not an issue or that she is wrong but just that her advice is not well informed.

deimos
Nov 30, 2006

Forget it man this bat is whack, it's got poobrain!

dotster posted:

From the abstract for the paper.


Even if she has a valid source it is very difficult for a layperson to interpret scientific data and properly explain the actual or practical amount of risk, it is often very hard even for scientists who don't focus on specific study in their fields. I am not saying that it is not an issue or that she is wrong but just that her advice is not well informed.

I know I worded that weird but I wasn't defending the post or the hysteria. Regardless, my earlier point about that study being whole-chain effects (box/factory -> strong UV -> chemical washes to test for leaching vs. box->puddle for X hours to test for leaching) stands.

deimos fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Feb 21, 2014

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!
On the blog ms. caveman effectively concludes that there isn't a problem with most conventional sous-vide bags anyways (as most are made from polyethylene and nylon anyways, just like the FoodSaver bags she approves of).

However, it's totally possible that even polyethylene is a truly bad thing, I don't know. I'm not gonna force it on someone who really doesn't like the idea, and if there were EA-free bags I'd maybe switch to use those instead. But there aren't right now.

No Wave fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Feb 21, 2014

dotster
Aug 28, 2013

deimos posted:

I know I worded that weird but I wasn't defending the post or the hysteria. Regardless, my earlier point about that study being whole-chain effects (box/factory -> strong UV -> chemical washes to test for leaching vs. box->puddle for X hours to test for leaching) stands.

Sure, I didn't read it that way and only meant to add to the conversation, not argue with you so sorry if it came off that way.

Ultimate Mango
Jan 18, 2005

I did a pork tenderloin at 60.5 for dinner and it was really nice. I put a little maple, bourbon, mustard and seasonings with it (not too much, mind you) and it came out great and the bag liquid made an awesome sauce. Paired nicely with a spicy sweet potato hash.

I am actually more excited to take the maple pork and hash for breakfast tomorrow and add a 62.5 C egg (is really the only reason I made this for dinner tonight)

Falcon2001
Oct 10, 2004

Eat your hamburgers, Apollo.
Pillbug
Just got my sansaire, first time messing around with sous vide and my fiancee is all freaked out about it. She's a protein specialist and grows bacteria for a living, so I guess I'm just going to dig into the science of it and just prove it's safe that way.

In the meantime, any vegetables that would be good for preparing sous-vide?

Ultimate Mango
Jan 18, 2005

Falcon2001 posted:

Just got my sansaire, first time messing around with sous vide and my fiancee is all freaked out about it. She's a protein specialist and grows bacteria for a living, so I guess I'm just going to dig into the science of it and just prove it's safe that way.

In the meantime, any vegetables that would be good for preparing sous-vide?

Perfect glazed carrots. Retrograde starch potatoes (just don't screw them up like I did). Maybe eggs as a gateway to non-veg options.

There is an iPhone app and a Polyscience reskin of it that can actually calculate both surface and core pasteurization. If she is worried about bacteria that app might help you show that you are being safe. I did my pork tenderloin to core pasteurization just to be safe. Only took two hours.

Steve Yun
Aug 7, 2003
I'm a parasitic landlord that needs to get a job instead of stealing worker's money. Make sure to remind me when I post.
Soiled Meat

Falcon2001 posted:

. She's a protein specialist and grows bacteria for a living, so I guess I'm just going to dig into the science of it and just prove it's safe that way.
Do you or she have access to bacteria testing equipment?

Falcon2001
Oct 10, 2004

Eat your hamburgers, Apollo.
Pillbug

Steve Yun posted:

Do you or she have access to bacteria testing equipment?

Well, not that we could bring home, and I assume her boss would probably not be super psyched about her dropping a steak sample into the laboratory equipment. I'm mostly just going to figure out the pastuerization levels.

Ultimate Mango posted:

Perfect glazed carrots. Retrograde starch potatoes (just don't screw them up like I did). Maybe eggs as a gateway to non-veg options.

There is an iPhone app and a Polyscience reskin of it that can actually calculate both surface and core pasteurization. If she is worried about bacteria that app might help you show that you are being safe. I did my pork tenderloin to core pasteurization just to be safe. Only took two hours.

Perfect, forgot I have an iPad kicking around here.

Ultimate Mango
Jan 18, 2005

Falcon2001 posted:

Well, not that we could bring home, and I assume her boss would probably not be super psyched about her dropping a steak sample into the laboratory equipment. I'm mostly just going to figure out the pastuerization levels.


Perfect, forgot I have an iPad kicking around here.

I have the Polyscience version of the app but I think the generic one is the exact same thing and is cheaper. It actually lists pathogen reduction in the cook cycle. Assuming you measure your meat (heh) accurately enough you should be fine.

My Dad wanted to get a puddle machine and I told him that until he understood 5 or 6 log reduction of e.coli, listeria, and salmonella that he wasn't allowed to buy or use one and I would not eat anything he made since he would be at risk of killing himself or others. That scared him off, at least for now.

If your fiancée brought her boss a Perfectly cooked steak maybe he would look the other way just once?

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!

Ultimate Mango posted:

My Dad wanted to get a puddle machine and I told him that until he understood 5 or 6 log reduction of e.coli, listeria, and salmonella that he wasn't allowed to buy or use one and I would not eat anything he made since he would be at risk of killing himself or others. That scared him off, at least for now.
What. You just look at a table and do what it says.

Ultimate Mango
Jan 18, 2005

No Wave posted:

What. You just look at a table and do what it says.

Yeah you don't know my Dad. He would create colonies of death instead of precisely cooked protein.

In other news my 64C eggs came out more like 68C, I think because I didn't cool them before the post puddle dunk in boiling water to firm up the white. Still delicious and the best white I've ever had. Just need to figure out how to get a more runny yolk.

Paradox Personified
Mar 15, 2010

:sun: SoroScrew :sun:
I'm not a diabetic but I see a lot of people having amazing results with potatoes in that manner; cook them, cool them slowly (remove cookware from burner, drain the unit, let potatoes cool in pan, fridge 24 hours, eat half a cup, bg measured, average spike is 2-6 points, highest one person saw was 12.) On one site it says that boiling the potatoes whole kicks the resistant starch factor up several notches. Now that is pretty drat cool.
I had no idea about any of this but I'm trying to memorize it as best I can.. And apparently; 'studies show' that among other things, resistant starch can increase the body’s ability to burn fat, and can improve insulin sensitivity and glucose tolerance.


pulled a post as an example, I love guinea pigs;

quote:

I ate 1/2 cup of poatato salad.

Before eating - 104
1 hour - 107
2 hours - 92

Apparently they do it with pasta and all sorts of stuff too.

mod sassinator
Dec 13, 2006
I came here to Kick Ass and Chew Bubblegum,
and I'm All out of Ass

Paradox Personified posted:

I'm not a diabetic but I see a lot of people having amazing results with potatoes in that manner; cook them, cool them slowly (remove cookware from burner, drain the unit, let potatoes cool in pan, fridge 24 hours, eat half a cup, bg measured, average spike is 2-6 points, highest one person saw was 12.) On one site it says that boiling the potatoes whole kicks the resistant starch factor up several notches. Now that is pretty drat cool.
I had no idea about any of this but I'm trying to memorize it as best I can.. And apparently; 'studies show' that among other things, resistant starch can increase the body’s ability to burn fat, and can improve insulin sensitivity and glucose tolerance.


pulled a post as an example, I love guinea pigs;


Apparently they do it with pasta and all sorts of stuff too.

Wow that's weird. I've heard there are such things as a strict all potato diet. As long as you add extremely small amounts of fat (i.e. no butter, cream, etc.), apparently there's enough protein and nutrients to have a healthy low, calorie diet from potatoes: http://www.today.com/id/40424707/ns/today-today_health/#.UwkMmXWx2tU

Falcon2001
Oct 10, 2004

Eat your hamburgers, Apollo.
Pillbug
Success! Managed to cook a new york strip steak and make a pan sauce out of the bag juice (least appealing title for anything ever, but c'est la vie) and it all turned out pretty drat great. The steak needed to be seared longer or hotter, and the pan sauce was kind of weird but that was the fault of the dessert red we used for it.

What oils do you folks use for searing?

ShadowCatboy
Jan 22, 2006

by FactsAreUseless
Rendered bacon fat. Nothing beats it. ;)

mod sassinator
Dec 13, 2006
I came here to Kick Ass and Chew Bubblegum,
and I'm All out of Ass
I've been using safflower oil I got for not too much money from Walmart and am really enjoying it for searing. Very high smoke point and no flavor at all. I've used canola oil in the past but it sometimes gets a weird taste at higher heats.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!

Falcon2001 posted:

Success! Managed to cook a new york strip steak and make a pan sauce out of the bag juice (least appealing title for anything ever, but c'est la vie) and it all turned out pretty drat great. The steak needed to be seared longer or hotter, and the pan sauce was kind of weird but that was the fault of the dessert red we used for it.

What oils do you folks use for searing?
Sous vide bag goop gets weird and lumpy when it's heated past 180 or so (which you will want to do to reduce it). The only solution I've found is to run it through a fine mesh strainer after bringing it to a boil.

Falcon2001
Oct 10, 2004

Eat your hamburgers, Apollo.
Pillbug

No Wave posted:

Sous vide bag goop gets weird and lumpy when it's heated past 180 or so (which you will want to do to reduce it). The only solution I've found is to run it through a fine mesh strainer after bringing it to a boil.

Hmm...the consistency was fine on the sauce, it was just the flavor that was strange, and that mostly owed to two things: first, we used a dessert red wine because I didn't have a good plan when I started and that was the open bottle of wine in the house, and second, we used beef broth for the rest of the liquid, which in hindsight made it way too beefy.

I'll try out safflower oil - I also found out that ghee is pretty much dead simple to make apparently, so I'm going to try making a batch of that as well. Either way, it was perfectly edible and we considered it a great success compared to the time I murdered a cast iron pan trying to make steak.

Death of Rats
Oct 2, 2005

SQUEAK
Just threw a jointed chicken in the puddle machine. I'm doing 60*C for 1:40 (as suggested for breasts on Serious Eats). Will the legs and wings be OK at that temperature, or do they need higher temperatures (I know they need 10 mins longer if I'm roasting them, hence why I'm asking).

Edit: Finished eating one of the breasts, finished in the pan with Diane sauce. Amazing stuff - I used to find chicken breast unpleasantly bland and dry under almost all circumstances and cooking methods, but sous vide breast is a genuine revelation. Tasty, juicy and beautiful. The most chicken-y chicken I think I've ever eaten.

Death of Rats fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Feb 23, 2014

EAT THE EGGS RICOLA
May 29, 2008

Falcon2001 posted:

Just got my sansaire, first time messing around with sous vide and my fiancee is all freaked out about it. She's a protein specialist and grows bacteria for a living, so I guess I'm just going to dig into the science of it and just prove it's safe that way.

Here you go for an intro to the safety part of it

Falcon2001
Oct 10, 2004

Eat your hamburgers, Apollo.
Pillbug

Yes! I found that site, it's amazing. It's honestly what helped me convince her, since it helps clarify the curves and times out to a table.

SlayVus
Jul 10, 2009
Grimey Drawer
Maybe someone has done this or can do this, but I have a question.

Would/could/have you use(d) a stand alone water pump with the anova or sansaire to increase the water circulation when cooking large batches of food to lower temperature differentials in the water?

Breadnought
Aug 25, 2009


I have a bad habit of waiting until I've vacuum sealed my food to set up my vizzler, leaving me with a 20-30 minute wait before the water gets to temperature and I can drop my block of meat in to cook. Can I just drop it in while the puddle is warming up? Or will that create some sort of bacterial monster? I feel like the regular cooking process would also kill any bacteria grown in the first 20 minutes before it hits the final temp, but I also know nothing about bacteria, so I figured I'd ask here before trying anything that might kill me.

ShadowCatboy
Jan 22, 2006

by FactsAreUseless
I'd say that's a bad idea. A sous vide rig can heat up a small quantity of water really quickly, but if not then you've got a hunk of meat gradually working its way through the danger zone. If the water is tepid you'd be essentially placing your meat in an incubator.

Safety Dance
Sep 10, 2007

Five degrees to starboard!

A piece of meat is going to have roughly the same thermal inertia as an equivalent amount of water. I can't imagine the inside of the meat is going to notice a difference whether you drop it into hot water or drop it into heating water.


SlayVus posted:

Maybe someone has done this or can do this, but I have a question.

Would/could/have you use(d) a stand alone water pump with the anova or sansaire to increase the water circulation when cooking large batches of food to lower temperature differentials in the water?

I don't think it's an issue of circulation, I think it's an issue of BTUs. A sufficiently large body of water is going to radiate heat at a certain rate (depending on what shape it's in, what the vessel is made out of, ambient air temperature, etc.; let's assume we're using aluminum stock pots). When your aluminum stock pot gets big enough and your water hot enough, it will radiate heat faster than your immersion circulator can pump heat into it. If you're desperate to SV two or three entire frozen turkeys, you can team several immersion circulators together.

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Death of Rats
Oct 2, 2005

SQUEAK

Breadnought posted:

I have a bad habit of waiting until I've vacuum sealed my food to set up my vizzler, leaving me with a 20-30 minute wait before the water gets to temperature and I can drop my block of meat in to cook. Can I just drop it in while the puddle is warming up? Or will that create some sort of bacterial monster? I feel like the regular cooking process would also kill any bacteria grown in the first 20 minutes before it hits the final temp, but I also know nothing about bacteria, so I figured I'd ask here before trying anything that might kill me.

Why not boil your kettle a couple of times during that 20 minutes? I usually set up my puddle machine with half boiling and half tap water, which reduces the pre-heating wait by a huge amount. I also regularly throw the bag in during this phase - that way I don't over-fill the bath (which helps with the pre-heating time too). Note: put the cold in first, and don't pour from the kettle directly onto a bag if you're going to do this).

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