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Synastren
Nov 8, 2005

Bad at Starcraft 2.
Better at psychology.
Psychology Megathread




DelphiAegis posted:

Nyx Mind control. Super Jump. Saryn's melee buff thing. Banshee silence, perhaps. Probably some others?

I don't like the idea of a cooldown system, mind you.

Super Jump is only 10 energy. If you have Flow or Streamline, not to mention any of the more extreme efficiency mods, it is trivial to use.

Removing the energy component for cooldowns isn't going to make disappointing or useless powers any better, especially if it is a global cooldown a la Mass Effect. If powers were changed to individual cooldowns, then they might be used more often, but they would have to change the structure so that abilities don't take up mod slots. A lot of these relatively useless powers are removed and the ability slots in the frame are reappropriated.

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AndroidHub
Feb 28, 2007

I've seen some stuff that would really make you say "like what?"
Super jump and mind control are fine, their frames just don't see a whole lot of use these days due to power creep. Mind control is great because you can pick out a Bombard/Napalm/Tech/etc and they will do quite a number on the rest of your enemies. I think mind control would be a lot better if it wasn't a duration, and instead was just permanent, there isn't really any given enemy that you can mind control that would be super unbalanced to have until it dies (but now that I think of it the new champion mobs come to mind). Super jump is just a fun skill, especially with lots of extra power strength, and as said before it's really cheap to cast.

Silence and contagion are just bad skills, it's a matter of people slotting other things instead of them (which is a whole other discussion on it's own). Silence would need a better minimap system with visible enemy facing and such to allow you to turn it into some kind of weird MGS simulator that would only work solo anyways (plus Loki and Ash would do it better with a lot less effort). Contagion is bad because melee is bad, it doesn't help that it costs 75 energy base to cast though.

It's sort of interesting, because with power creep being such a problem, Saryn and Banshee are both in need of some real help. Saryn doesn't really have a niche at all anymore since venom was nerfed unfortunately, and her ult is just outclassed. Banshee is only useful for sonar if you really want to kill certain bosses very quickly (which is also questionable now, but she still does damage amp best).

Shugojin
Sep 6, 2007

THE TAIL THAT BURNS TWICE AS BRIGHT...


Honestly I think that Mind Control's biggest problem is that the target just kinda glows a little bit, which makes it hard for you or your allies to tell it's been controlled. It always gets killed off really quickly.

Being vulnerable to splash effects doesn't help.

Cathair
Jan 7, 2008
Saryn's biggest problem is that her ult is affected by both power strength and power duration, which used to be an advantage but is now a major disadvantage because of Fleeting Expertise. The fact that her ult isn't terribly good anyway is just the final nail in the coffin. Ember's in the same boat. :sigh:

Washin Tong
Feb 16, 2011

Shugojin posted:

Honestly I think that Mind Control's biggest problem is that the target just kinda glows a little bit, which makes it hard for you or your allies to tell it's been controlled. It always gets killed off really quickly.

Being vulnerable to splash effects doesn't help.

Sometimes it's a different cause for the same effect, the glow will make pubbies take extra notice of the target, so they'll shoot it down faster :suicide:

Fuzzy Pipe Wrench
Nov 5, 2008

MAYBE DON'T STEAL BEER FROM GOONS?

CHEERS!
(FUCK YOU)

Cathair posted:

Saryn's biggest problem is that her ult is affected by both power strength and power duration, which used to be an advantage but is now a major disadvantage because of Fleeting Expertise. The fact that her ult isn't terribly good anyway is just the final nail in the coffin. Ember's in the same boat. :sigh:

Saryn's ultimate gets better with reduced duration. You can basically solo ODD with a max power/efficiency/range Miasma.

Cathair
Jan 7, 2008

Fuzzy Pipe Wrench posted:

Saryn's ultimate gets better with reduced duration. You can basically solo ODD with a max power/efficiency/range Miasma.

No poo poo? Wiki says you're right, they must have changed it recently along with the other tweaks to Saryn and I never noticed. Okay, cool, that puts Saryn into 'subpar but usable' range. :dance:

Edit: Ember's World On Fire seems to be still negatively affected by decreased power duration- IE, it doesn't do a static amount of overall damage divided amongst ticks like Saryn's ult now does, its damage is the same per tick no matter what the duration is. Man, somebody at DE really hates that frame.

Cathair fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Feb 23, 2014

Sputnik
Jul 21, 2003

I felt like a ninja, and my kung-fu was strong.

Speaking of frame powers, if they made Zephyr's dive bomb work so that it gave a stun duration (ala Rhino's Stomp) proportional to the height from which it is launched, I think that I would legit enjoy and slot each and every power on Zephyr unironically.

The only other frame that I can say that about is Loki.

Ajax
Mar 16, 2004

Aunt Petunia's Girdle!
What's happening?

Cathair posted:

No poo poo? Wiki says you're right, they must have changed it recently along with the other tweaks to Saryn and I never noticed. Okay, cool, that puts Saryn into 'subpar but usable' range. :dance:

Actually, it puts Saryn into the 'basically nova' range. Just trade speed (nova) for armor & health (saryn).

For damage anyway. Nova still has 2 other useful skills, Saryn kinda has 0.

Sputnik
Jul 21, 2003

I felt like a ninja, and my kung-fu was strong.

Moult is useful and shouldn't ever be discounted. Yeah, Wormhole allows you to pretend that you're Nightcrawler, but Saryn is hardly useless.

Cathair
Jan 7, 2008

Ajax posted:

Actually, it puts Saryn into the 'basically nova' range. Just trade speed (nova) for armor & health (saryn).

For damage anyway. Nova still has 2 other useful skills, Saryn kinda has 0.

That's quite an exaggeration. M. Prime has its debuff and a 25 meter base range to Miasma's 15. It's more accurate to say it's on par with Oberon's ult (which is pretty good, though not top tier)- lose the health orbs and the guaranteed knockdown, gain 50% more damage.

AndroidHub
Feb 28, 2007

I've seen some stuff that would really make you say "like what?"
And apparently molt explodes now when it's destroyed or replaced? I guess it isn't significant damage, but maybe fully spec'd for power strength it could do something?

timn
Mar 16, 2010
Found the dread blueprint and thunderbolt last night. :getin:

Just when you think you're losing steam with this game, something wonderful happens to make it totally fresh again.

doomfunk
Feb 29, 2008

oh come on was that really necessary
all over my fine carpet!!
I heard from a coworker that there's a guaranteed melee weapon schematic the first time you drop General Vor. Is this true? Because I didn't get it. Is there any other way to acquire this blueprint?

e: It hasn't dropped any of the five times I've killed Vor, either.

Shugojin
Sep 6, 2007

THE TAIL THAT BURNS TWICE AS BRIGHT...


doomfunk posted:

I heard from a coworker that there's a guaranteed melee weapon schematic the first time you drop General Vor. Is this true? Because I didn't get it. Is there any other way to acquire this blueprint?

e: It hasn't dropped any of the five times I've killed Vor, either.

It's Cronus. It's supposed to be a guaranteed first drop with a chance that lowers each time you defeat him, so if for some reason you didn't get it the first time it's basically not going to happen.

doomfunk
Feb 29, 2008

oh come on was that really necessary
all over my fine carpet!!
Well, that's really cool. :colbert:

I guess it's just a starter melee or something so I shouldn't sweat it, but I don't like being crapped out of a guaranteed item like that. My first trip to Vor, I got the Seer Receiver, so I figured the pistol should be enough.

Washin Tong
Feb 16, 2011

Don't worry, the Cronus is basically a very slightly less lovely Skana, but still terrible so you're not missing out on much.

If you want a new melee weapon just get whatever dual or heavy melee weapon blueprint you like from the market and you'll be better off. The Dual Ether is a good choice and pretty easy to make.

Coldbird
Jul 17, 2001

be spiritless
For those who hadn't tried it yet, the flavor text on the Castanas is a bit short on details - they are, in effect, thrown electric Penta grenades that stick (no bounce = less suicide). I might have bought them cash if DE's market ad for them said that, and didn't just make them sound like an electric Kunai. Too late now, already built them with clan research.

Only just leveling mine now, not sure how much the lower damage will hurt them, but the idea has a lot of potential. The sticky thing means actually using for setting traps could be a thing, but I guess it would also be a lot harder to kill things outside LOS than with a Penta.

Cainer
May 8, 2008
Any tips on making the Ignus into a killing weapon? I just threw a blue potato on it and its level 24 at the moment. Also got the Castanas built and loving the crap out of them, going to actually have to invest in some secondary mods for once.

Edit: How does split chamber work on the Ignis? Per trigger pull or per ammo used?

Doctor Goat
Jan 22, 2005

Where does it hurt?

Cainer posted:

Any tips on making the Ignus into a killing weapon? I just threw a blue potato on it and its level 24 at the moment. Also got the Castanas built and loving the crap out of them, going to actually have to invest in some secondary mods for once.

Edit: How does split chamber work on the Ignis? Per trigger pull or per ammo used?

Ignis should just be constantly fed potatoes until you notice that everything in the cone just starts dying.

Mine's at 5 and until you get to really loving high level stuff, it's just wave the cursor around and watch experience numbers pop out. The only weapon I have that's more deadly is the Penta.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

Hog Butcher posted:

Ignis should just be constantly fed potatoes until you notice that everything in the cone just starts dying.

FYI, "potato" isn't a forma, it's an Orokin reactor/catalyst (you can only have one on a gun).

Fish Noise
Jul 25, 2012

IT'S ME, BURROWS!

IT WAS ME ALL ALONG, BURROWS!
Starching is a one-time procedure. Once starched, the Ignis should be fed puzzle pieces!

Elysiume
Aug 13, 2009

Alone, she fights.
So on the Saryn thing with -duration, has anyone done recent testing on it? Because I've heard both ways, that:
1. Miasma (and Contagion) are a fixed damage (affected by power mods), and increasing and decreasing duration won't affect total damage dealt. Therefore you want minimum duration for maximum DPS.
2. Miasma (and Contagion) are a fixed damage per tick (affected by power mods), and increasing and decreasing duration respectively increase and decrease the amounts of ticks that happen. Therefore you want maximum duration for maximum ticks which is the maximum damage (at the same DPS no matter what).

Elysiume fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Feb 23, 2014

Doctor Goat
Jan 22, 2005

Where does it hurt?

Lemon Curdistan posted:

FYI, "potato" isn't a forma, it's an Orokin reactor/catalyst (you can only have one on a gun).

It's been a while since I've played. :downs:

MJ12
Apr 8, 2009

AndroidHub posted:

Super jump and mind control are fine, their frames just don't see a whole lot of use these days due to power creep. Mind control is great because you can pick out a Bombard/Napalm/Tech/etc and they will do quite a number on the rest of your enemies. I think mind control would be a lot better if it wasn't a duration, and instead was just permanent, there isn't really any given enemy that you can mind control that would be super unbalanced to have until it dies (but now that I think of it the new champion mobs come to mind). Super jump is just a fun skill, especially with lots of extra power strength, and as said before it's really cheap to cast.

Silence and contagion are just bad skills, it's a matter of people slotting other things instead of them (which is a whole other discussion on it's own). Silence would need a better minimap system with visible enemy facing and such to allow you to turn it into some kind of weird MGS simulator that would only work solo anyways (plus Loki and Ash would do it better with a lot less effort). Contagion is bad because melee is bad, it doesn't help that it costs 75 energy base to cast though.

It's sort of interesting, because with power creep being such a problem, Saryn and Banshee are both in need of some real help. Saryn doesn't really have a niche at all anymore since venom was nerfed unfortunately, and her ult is just outclassed. Banshee is only useful for sonar if you really want to kill certain bosses very quickly (which is also questionable now, but she still does damage amp best).

Silence and Contagion should just be passives or toggleables honestly. Especially Silence. I'm not sure a 'passive' ability would be really great in the design of power use, but I think it might work. Say, Contagion adds to your melee damage passively but also reduces the power efficiency of all powers by 15% or so while active, and Silence just has no costs whatsoever. It'd still be gimmicky but it'd at least be something for a gimmick ninja run.

Shugojin
Sep 6, 2007

THE TAIL THAT BURNS TWICE AS BRIGHT...


MJ12 posted:

Silence and Contagion should just be passives or toggleables honestly. Especially Silence. I'm not sure a 'passive' ability would be really great in the design of power use, but I think it might work. Say, Contagion adds to your melee damage passively but also reduces the power efficiency of all powers by 15% or so while active, and Silence just has no costs whatsoever. It'd still be gimmicky but it'd at least be something for a gimmick ninja run.

Maybe something like the thing Dragon Age has for the sustained abilities, so it would be a -max energy while you have it active?

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

MJ12 posted:

Silence and Contagion should just be passives or toggleables honestly. Especially Silence. I'm not sure a 'passive' ability would be really great in the design of power use, but I think it might work. Say, Contagion adds to your melee damage passively but also reduces the power efficiency of all powers by 15% or so while active, and Silence just has no costs whatsoever. It'd still be gimmicky but it'd at least be something for a gimmick ninja run.

They should just have "reserve" skills, like a shitload of ARPGs do (toggle it on, it lowers your max mana by an amount).

Cathair
Jan 7, 2008

Elysiume posted:

So on the Saryn thing with -duration, has anyone done recent testing on it? Because I've heard both ways, that:
1. Miasma (and Contagion) are a fixed damage (affected by power mods), and increasing and decreasing duration won't affect total damage dealt. Therefore you want minimum duration for maximum DPS.
2. Miasma (and Contagion) are a fixed damage per tick (affected by power mods), and increasing and decreasing duration respectively increase and decrease the amounts of ticks that happen. Therefore you want maximum duration for maximum ticks which is the maximum damage (at the same DPS no matter what).

#2 is how Miasma always used to work. #1 seems to be how it works now. The wiki claims that #1 is correct, and while I am too impatient to do any really in-depth testing, taking all duration mods off my Saryn and equipping the Chlora hat for good measure- this is with a max efficiency build- doesn't seem to be doing any less damage and in fact kills grunts noticeably faster. So, #1 is probably correct right now.

DelphiAegis
Jun 21, 2010
Well, the duration on miasma just makes it tick faster, allowing you to cast it again, or kill the enemy before the stun from casting it wears off. DPS is misleading here, since reducing the duration does indeed increase it's DPS, but not its damage.

One of these days I have to test if stomp is affected by duration, but I'm far, far too lazy.

Cathair
Jan 7, 2008

DelphiAegis posted:

Well, the duration on miasma just makes it tick faster, allowing you to cast it again, or kill the enemy before the stun from casting it wears off. DPS is misleading here, since reducing the duration does indeed increase it's DPS, but not its damage.

One of these days I have to test if stomp is affected by duration, but I'm far, far too lazy.

Yeah, I wasn't under the impression that lowering duration gives more overall damage, it's just that doing the same damage over a shorter time period is better because it gives things less time to shoot back before they drop dead.

Stomp's stun is still not affected by duration.

Ajax
Mar 16, 2004

Aunt Petunia's Girdle!
What's happening?

DelphiAegis posted:

Well, the duration on miasma just makes it tick faster, allowing you to cast it again, or kill the enemy before the stun from casting it wears off. DPS is misleading here, since reducing the duration does indeed increase it's DPS, but not its damage.

One of these days I have to test if stomp is affected by duration, but I'm far, far too lazy.

The last time I bothered to check, which is maybe a month ago, it was (perhaps mistakenly) doing more damage with less duration due to the weird extra tick miasma has. Take the following with a grain of salt, but I've found it largely true.

some forums dude posted:

Alright, below here is why the mod Blind rage actually lowers DPS on Miasma.
Due to a bug maybe Miasma always gets a beneficial extra tick on it.
Tick damage is calculated according to this formula following the wikia :

Tick damage = Total damage divided by Total duration.

This means that less duration will increase the damage on each tick wich will in turn benefit the extra tick.
Some examples below :

Miasma has a 1500 base damage and a 4 second duration on max rank.
This will let you deal 5 ticks of 375 damage resulting in 1875 damage.

Miasma with a max rank Fleeting expertise will give you a duration of 1.6 seconds resulting in 1 tick plus the extra tick.
This lets me deal 938 damage per tick resulting in 1876 damage

However a one rank from the top fleeting expertise will give me a duration of 2 seconds wich gives me 3 ticks on total of 750 damage resulting in 2250 damage WITHOUT damage mods.

Now for the blind rage part.

If you equip these mode on Saryn :
Max blind rage
Max focus
one rank from the top fleeting expertise
Max streamline

This will get you the required minus duration to reach maximum damage with ticks and give you also +129 % power strength and 25 % efficiency. This results in a damage of 1717.5 damage per tick and a total damage done of 5152.5 damage for 75 energy.

However, if we take out blind rage we get a +30% power strength and a 75 % efficiency. This results in 975 damage per tick for a accumulated damage of 2925 damage. we can cast this three times for 75 energy for a whopping 8775 damage.


I stand by what I said regarding Miasma being close to MPrime in terms of overpoweredness. It's not an 'exaggeration' at all. I would trade MPrimes slow for the stun on Miasma no problem. Also, Miasma begins applying its DoT damage immediately. And personally, I loving hate chasing down crawlers that are primed 2 rooms over in ODD.

edit: I found the post I was looking for, rather than the one above. It contradicts the 2s miasma theory. (For reference, my Saryn currently has max fleeting + chlora - I believed the below to be true)

quote:

Miasma does deal a reduced damage tick based on fractions of a second. The problem is that these reduced damage ticks do not have damage pop-ups (that we can see at least). However, if you watch the enemy's health bar, you can see the damage being done. This changes what Power Duration is needed to maximize its damage. Here are some quick examples:
pre:
Mods	                     Power Duration	Duration	Total damage
Constitution + Continuity    58%	        6.32 seconds	1737
Continuity	             30%	        5.2 seconds	1788
Constitution                 28%	        5.12 seconds	1792
None	                      0%	        4 seconds	1875
Fleeting Expertise	    -25%	        3 seconds	2000
Fleeting Expertise	    -50%	        2 seconds	2250
Fleeting Expertise	    -60%	        1.6 seconds	2437
Fleeting Expertise +         -65%	        1.4 seconds	2571
Chlora helmet	

Ajax fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Feb 24, 2014

FadedReality
Sep 5, 2007

Okurrrr?

Helter Skelter posted:

Pubbies are terrible, so play with goons instead!

This is super true. I'm pretty new so I've just been queueing randoms when I'm not farting around solo and played a Spy mission. The one pubbie was pretty good but the other went sprinting off toward the other end of the level. He died, complained we didn't save him, then ran back. Fighting through his spawns was super cool.

Owl Inspector
Sep 14, 2011

FadedReality posted:

This is super true. I'm pretty new so I've just been queueing randoms when I'm not farting around solo and played a Spy mission. The one pubbie was pretty good but the other went sprinting off toward the other end of the level. He died, complained we didn't save him, then ran back. Fighting through his spawns was super cool.

I had a similar situation on Kappa where I repeatedly asked a pubbie to stay near the console and was ignored, before he got downed really far away in whatever mass of enemies he was fighting on his own for no explicable reason.

pubbie: help me
me: should have stayed near the console
pubbie: gays *disconnect*

I laughed so much.

Kaldaris
Aug 10, 2008

Yeah! Yeah! Yeah!
Awesome possum!
Thank you Digital Extremes for allowing me to pick my ping limit involving connectivity to other players when I join games.

But I did not think that setting my ping to 100 would mean that your infinite wisdom would slam me into a game with a man so bad at hosting that doors opened and instead abruptly stopped to become chest-high wall obstacles.

Enemies floated in this Plutonian dimension, bad mans drifted through walls and Tenno agent fell through floors. The very fabric of time and reality ripped open as things I shot died twenty seconds later.

I'm not mad, Digital Extremes. I just think there needs to be a reason why you shoved me into this twilight zone of a match immediately after I hit 'play', in the hopes that it would host my own game.

Fish Noise
Jul 25, 2012

IT'S ME, BURROWS!

IT WAS ME ALL ALONG, BURROWS!

Kaldaris posted:

The very fabric of time and reality ripped open
We gotta show you how to attain apotheosis in the Dojo.

Szurumbur
Feb 17, 2011
Honestly, although I'm very new at the game at might change my opinion later, whatever system for using powers there would be I'd rather see powers' availability somewhat changed - as it is, I've chosen the Loki frame for its' supposed battlefield-controlling powers and there was quite a while until I could use all of them, and if I want to use some other useful mods I have to unequip powers anyway. I have a blueprint for a new and exciting Frame and I don't really want to craft because grinding for the space that I would have to have in order to even equip powers make me wary of something new (not to mention finding the skill cards). I'd like it better if the frames had all their powers unlocked at the start, or maybe at a certain levels or randomly, as it is now, just now make them use the same pool of points that an actual Frame modifications use. Then again, I only use the boring and tried powers and if I unequipped the Shield and Health mods I'd have enough points for all the powers, but I don't like the idea.

Also, is there a way (outside of checking the wiki and for alerts) what monetary rewards missions have? Or do Extermination and Assassinate always net around 1000 credits?

Fish Noise
Jul 25, 2012

IT'S ME, BURROWS!

IT WAS ME ALL ALONG, BURROWS!

Szurumbur posted:

I'd rather see powers' availability somewhat changed
This is something that's come up often before, and it's part of why "I got a fresh frame that needs leveling, who wants to carry me" is a thing that happens.
It's somewhat alleviated (but not fully fixed) by Aura cards, which go into that single slot on the left and give you a flat increase to mod capacity depending on polarity and fusion. IIRC, a maxed Energy Siphon will put another 14 capacity on a Loki.
Even this is problematic for a new player since it requires you to get your hand on an Aura card in the first place. That in turn has been somewhat alleviated by trading - check with clan for a spare Energy Siphon.

...wow, when it's described as partial fixes stacked on top of partial fixes, it sounds REALLY bad.

Now that I'm thinking about this particular aspect of the problem, I'd like to see them add a new set of four power-specific slots. Without power cards slotted, these slots still act as an unranked power and cost no capacity, thus making them always available. Slotting in a fused power card uses the improved version instead, and the capacity use scaling of the fused cards is altered to accomodate no-capacity-at-unranked, so the cards are still there and not wasted. Unranked power cards will still exist as fusion fodder, and you still get a full set when you build a new frame, as a (very) slight head start in fusing. If DE adds alternate powers for frames, those powers can replace the defaults while the cards are slotted in, so you can still have, for instance, an unranked alternate 2 power.
As for the current mod slots, they can be left as-is. If DE is going to add universal powers (I think this was mentioned before? someone confirm?) such as for movement, the power polarity doesn't even need to go away. Of course, if DE also hands each player a free forma for, say, every frame with four power polarity slots they have, allowing players to free up some of those stock power polarity slots, that could make DE real popular for a while.

Big Floppy
Apr 30, 2006


If you are on PS4 just find me in the clan or add me as a friend PSN: Aoasha. I am usually on a lot and running defense/survivals to level up things or farming for mats from bosses.

On a side note, I don't know what stalker uses but he kept on popping my iron skin off after each hit. I was able to keep reapplying/stomp each time but wow. Was excited since it was the first time he messaged me last night. Sadly no blueprints from him. Good thing I had 70% power effeciency on or else I would of been a dead with no energy.

Sandweed
Sep 7, 2006

All your friends are me.

He's does a thing that dispels all frame powers.

Stalker came after a pubbie last night and the SOB jumped on top of a box and started shooting arrows at the pubbies, boxes used to be his greatest weakness.

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necrobobsledder
Mar 21, 2005
Lay down your soul to the gods rock 'n roll
Nap Ghost
I think Stalker mostly exists so newbies will be scared to play with other newbies mostly and that they'll always prefer to have a chaperone Tenno around.

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