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Eat Bum Zen
Jul 19, 2013

*mumbles*
Rated T for Teen
I would agree that, like, strength is less important than technique. I get told this a lot by my climber friends. On the other hand, me bouldering is like them bouldering with a 60# weighted vest, so sometimes it matters.

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ConspicuousEvil
Feb 29, 2004
Pillbug
I've been lurking quite a bit in this thread and have noticed some odd trends. It seems like there's a lot of misinformation being disseminated here, mostly about injuries and training. First of all there are a few different types of holds that can cause injuries and those injuries are not all the same.

Tendon injuries typically occur while pulling on pockets and, less often, slopers. There are lots of tendons in your hands and arms. You could pull on a pocket too hard and pop a tendon somewhere in your forearm, or just in your palm.

The most common injuries are actually to the annular ligaments and less often the cruciate and collateral ligaments in your fingers. These occur from stress the tendons put on the ligaments while closed-, or even half-, crimping.

I think it's really important that anyone posting up here asking for advice should first give us a rundown on how hard they climb (only so we understand what suggestions might be most helpful), how many years, and what they already to for training in addition to the specific things they want to improve.

I would be more apt to chime in here and give my $.02, for whatever that's worth, if there was more background being given. Seems like most people are assuming everyone asking for advice is a beginner, which may be a fairly safe assumption, but not always the case.

On a lighter note, I'm going to Joe's in a couple of weeks. Anyone else got some good climbing trips planned?

gamera009
Apr 7, 2005

ConspicuousEvil posted:

On a lighter note, I'm going to Joe's in a couple of weeks. Anyone else got some good climbing trips planned?
Once spring break rolls around, Shelf Road. Maybe Clear Creek.

Baldbeard
Mar 26, 2011

ConspicuousEvil posted:

I've been lurking quite a bit in this thread and have noticed some odd trends. It seems like there's a lot of misinformation being disseminated here, mostly about injuries and training. First of all there are a few different types of holds that can cause injuries and those injuries are not all the same.

Tendon injuries typically occur while pulling on pockets and, less often, slopers. There are lots of tendons in your hands and arms. You could pull on a pocket too hard and pop a tendon somewhere in your forearm, or just in your palm.

The most common injuries are actually to the annular ligaments and less often the cruciate and collateral ligaments in your fingers. These occur from stress the tendons put on the ligaments while closed-, or even half-, crimping.

I think it's really important that anyone posting up here asking for advice should first give us a rundown on how hard they climb (only so we understand what suggestions might be most helpful), how many years, and what they already to for training in addition to the specific things they want to improve.

I would be more apt to chime in here and give my $.02, for whatever that's worth, if there was more background being given. Seems like most people are assuming everyone asking for advice is a beginner, which may be a fairly safe assumption, but not always the case.

On a lighter note, I'm going to Joe's in a couple of weeks. Anyone else got some good climbing trips planned?

That's a good point. "Ligaments" and "tendons" are sometimes used interchangeably here and by a lot of climbers in general. I think because both do not traditionally 'strengthen' as regular muscle would, both take much longer to heal than muscle, and both need different care for rehabilitation than muscle. I think the assumption that most questions come from beginners is that the question most often asked is, "What kind of exercises can I do to increase my grip?, and it's usually presented like, "My grip is really holding me back!".

That line of thinking is dangerous because not understanding that grip/forearm strength does not equal finger tendon/ligament strength leads a lot of people to going apeshit on fingerboards and crimps, thinking the 'no pain no gain' methodology that works for getting sweet biceps applies to finger strength.

ConspicuousEvil
Feb 29, 2004
Pillbug

Baldbeard posted:

That's a good point. "Ligaments" and "tendons" are sometimes used interchangeably here and by a lot of climbers in general. I think because both do not traditionally 'strengthen' as regular muscle would, both take much longer to heal than muscle, and both need different care for rehabilitation than muscle. I think the assumption that most questions come from beginners is that the question most often asked is, "What kind of exercises can I do to increase my grip?, and it's usually presented like, "My grip is really holding me back!".

That line of thinking is dangerous because not understanding that grip/forearm strength does not equal finger tendon/ligament strength leads a lot of people to going apeshit on fingerboards and crimps, thinking the 'no pain no gain' methodology that works for getting sweet biceps applies to finger strength.

I totally agree, and I want to make a point of saying that I generally agree with 90% of what people are saying here. But I think the idea that "hangboards are bad" for beginners or people who can't make it to the gym a lot is incorrect. There's absolutely nothing wrong with using just about any type of training tool if you're doing it in a well-informed and regimented way. With the small exception of campus boards, there's way to use every training tool with a minimal amount of risk. Even a campus board, however can be used properly while minimizing the risk of injury, but I agree that it's a lot more difficult to do and takes a bit more experience to use effectively.

If you're a relatively new climber and want to know what else you can do besides just climbing to get a little better I think it's better to ask and get some useful information rather than be told you shouldn't be doing it. It's better if we can steer people in the right direction rather than let them try and figure it out on their own and increase their potential for injury because they don't know what they're doing.

Niyqor
Dec 1, 2003

Paid for by the meat council of America

ConspicuousEvil posted:

On a lighter note, I'm going to Joe's in a couple of weeks. Anyone else got some good climbing trips planned?

Going to be in Las Vegas in early May for business. Hoping to get out to Red Rock Canyon and get some climbing in.

Chris!
Dec 2, 2004

E

ConspicuousEvil posted:

On a lighter note, I'm going to Joe's in a couple of weeks. Anyone else got some good climbing trips planned?

Good post!

I did my first outdoor climbing of the year last week, with a 1-night camping trip to the Peak District (in England). I just did bouldering but holy crap it's a great location! I'd never been before but will be going again ASAP.

And at the start of May a big group of us are going to Dartmoor for a climbing weekend, which will be mostly top-roping as I've still got to learn to lead/trad climb!

Though there's a new gym opening in Brighton this week, called High Sports, where I'm going to get some more indoor experience at that.

Sigmund Fraud
Jul 31, 2005

guppy posted:

I don't know what the consensus is on them, but my gym sells these: http://www.amazon.com/Metolius-METOLIUS-Gripsaver-Plus-Medium/dp/B00A6EO9Y8

Those aren't going to do squat in terms of finger strength. They are designed for rehab and injury prevention. The only type of finger strength that matters when it comes to climbing is isometric. Regular climbing on anything other than jugs, hangboards and campus rungs will improve finger strength. E: But really if you've not climbed frequently for at least a year chances are your tendons and ligaments aren't strong enough for a hang board regiment. Muscle strength increases much quicker than the your tendons.

Sigmund Fraud fucked around with this message at 14:26 on Mar 4, 2014

jackchaos
Aug 6, 2008
So I have a question as far as injuries go. It's not so much of an injury as much as a tweak. Little background I guess I climb 4 times or so a week, specifically bouldering. I boulder at around v8-9 and I have found out of the blue when I heel hook with my left leg there is a sharp pain in the pit or back side of my leg. Wondering if it just needs to be stretched out more or what.

ConspicuousEvil
Feb 29, 2004
Pillbug

jackchaos posted:

So I have a question as far as injuries go. It's not so much of an injury as much as a tweak. Little background I guess I climb 4 times or so a week, specifically bouldering. I boulder at around v8-9 and I have found out of the blue when I heel hook with my left leg there is a sharp pain in the pit or back side of my leg. Wondering if it just needs to be stretched out more or what.

Do you stretch your legs before you climb now? If not, then I would definitely suggest stretching your hamstrings and doing butterflies stretches before you start climbing. If so, is the pain located at your knee, or somewhere else in your leg? if it's your knee then you could have some IT-band issues or something else related to connective tissue, like tendonitis.

Dumbdog
Sep 13, 2011

Chris! posted:

I did my first outdoor climbing of the year last week, with a 1-night camping trip to the Peak District (in England). I just did bouldering but holy crap it's a great location! I'd never been before but will be going again ASAP.


Where abouts did you go? So much good climbing in the peak even if I have to admit im not the biggest fan of gritstone.

Chris!
Dec 2, 2004

E

Dumbdog posted:

Where abouts did you go? So much good climbing in the peak even if I have to admit im not the biggest fan of gritstone.

Did the Edale Round - hiked up to Ringing Roger then walked round, past Nether Tor etc... Basically everywhere you turn is incredible rock!

It's about 4.5 hrs drive from where I live but was completely worth it.

Speleothing
May 6, 2008

Spare batteries are pretty key.
I guess I should go ahead and let the denver/boulder climbing goons know that I've got a pass for the new gym in Golden and live about 3 blocks away from it. So if you ever need a partner there, let me know.

jackchaos
Aug 6, 2008

ConspicuousEvil posted:

Do you stretch your legs before you climb now? If not, then I would definitely suggest stretching your hamstrings and doing butterflies stretches before you start climbing. If so, is the pain located at your knee, or somewhere else in your leg? if it's your knee then you could have some IT-band issues or something else related to connective tissue, like tendonitis.

It's more of on the left back side of my knee. Since I've noticed the pain I have started stretching.

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy

Speleothing posted:

I guess I should go ahead and let the denver/boulder climbing goons know that I've got a pass for the new gym in Golden and live about 3 blocks away from it. So if you ever need a partner there, let me know.

Is it any good and why is it so expensive... $19 a day, $89 for a month, $887 for a year ($69 a month plus $59 one time). Just absurd.

Speleothing
May 6, 2008

Spare batteries are pretty key.
It's a good gym. But you do have to make an effort to get you money's worth with the facilities and yoga/climbing classes. Fortunately you can choose to not pay for summer months.

MOVIE MAJICK
Jan 4, 2012

by Pragmatica

spwrozek posted:

Is it any good and why is it so expensive... $19 a day, $89 for a month, $887 for a year ($69 a month plus $59 one time). Just absurd.

Thats a completely normal price for Toronto from what I've seen, which is sort of prohibitive from doing rock climbing at all. :(

They all have a first lesson for around 50$ which includes equipment rentals. Is that worhtwhile to get into it, do I even need a lesson for climbing rocks, or can me and my bud just go and figure it out ourselves?

Baldbeard
Mar 26, 2011

WYA posted:

Thats a completely normal price for Toronto from what I've seen, which is sort of prohibitive from doing rock climbing at all. :(

They all have a first lesson for around 50$ which includes equipment rentals. Is that worhtwhile to get into it, do I even need a lesson for climbing rocks, or can me and my bud just go and figure it out ourselves?
You cannot top-rope at most gyms unless you are certified there through a lesson and/or preform some kind of demonstration of harness and rope knowledge. If you make it clear you are just going to boulder (no ropes, less height, 'crash pads' or padding is used), then some gyms will give you a free quick lesson that goes over the basics like safely falling, gym rules, and how routes are organized. At least one person in your group should have these basic rules and ideas behind safely bouldering explained to them.

Likely everyone will have to pay the day pass fee, shoe rental fee, and at least one chalk bag shared between the group.

PRADA SLUT
Mar 14, 2006

Inexperienced,
heartless,
but even so
I have some Metolius hand balm, and while I like it, it doesn't seem to be the cheapest around. Is there anything similar that anyone would recommend that I could throw in my climbing bag and put on after I leave the gym?

TotallyUnoriginal
Oct 15, 2004

Damnit bob

PRADA SLUT posted:

I have some Metolius hand balm, and while I like it, it doesn't seem to be the cheapest around. Is there anything similar that anyone would recommend that I could throw in my climbing bag and put on after I leave the gym?

I've had good success with Bert's Bees! It's not necessarily cheap, I think it's around $7-8 for a tin but they're gigantic. Probably 10x the size of the metolius tin. Also, a few of my friends use that Corn Husker's stuff.

gamera009
Apr 7, 2005

PRADA SLUT posted:

I have some Metolius hand balm, and while I like it, it doesn't seem to be the cheapest around. Is there anything similar that anyone would recommend that I could throw in my climbing bag and put on after I leave the gym?

Bee bar. From Honey House.

Baldbeard
Mar 26, 2011

All about corn huskers post climbing. I hate the smell, but the stuff absorbs into your skin faster and easier than anything I've ever tried by a factor of 10.

Manstrocity
Apr 28, 2009

PRADA SLUT posted:

I have some Metolius hand balm, and while I like it, it doesn't seem to be the cheapest around. Is there anything similar that anyone would recommend that I could throw in my climbing bag and put on after I leave the gym?

You can make your own with this one weird trick from a mom. Better than CANCER IN A BOTTLE, so she claims, but it sounds like it may not absorb the fastest.

Caf
May 21, 2004

I'm King James! The Lion King!
I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned ClimbOn bars yet. A little bit goes a long way and it smells pretty good too.

TotallyUnoriginal
Oct 15, 2004

Damnit bob

Baldbeard posted:

All about corn huskers post climbing. I hate the smell, but the stuff absorbs into your skin faster and easier than anything I've ever tried by a factor of 10.

It definitely works! I just don't like the way it feels on my hands and smells awful so I stay away from it.

PRADA SLUT
Mar 14, 2006

Inexperienced,
heartless,
but even so

Caf posted:

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned ClimbOn bars yet. A little bit goes a long way and it smells pretty good too.

I've used it, it's just as expensive as the other "climber" balms though.

AriTheDog
Jul 29, 2003
Famously tasty.

Caf posted:

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned ClimbOn bars yet. A little bit goes a long way and it smells pretty good too.

I love the ClimbOn bars, and while expensive they last forever.

Caf
May 21, 2004

I'm King James! The Lion King!
^^^Pretty much.

PRADA SLUT posted:

I've used it, it's just as expensive as the other "climber" balms though.

I bought an ounce in September and have only managed to use half while climbing 2-3 times a week. It'll last me a year at this rate. Yeah, it's $10 an once but I couldn't call that expensive on an annual purchase.

deck
Jul 13, 2006


Now in video form: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sk2Eq7lFYlQ

CoasterMaster
Aug 13, 2003

The Emperor of the Rides


Nap Ghost
I started climbing seriously (as a hobby, I guess) at the beginning of the year and I go to the rock gym 2-3 times a week. Right now, I can pretty consistently climb 5.8 and a few days ago I finished my first 5.9. Two noob-questions have come up:

1) How do I use my hand in a crack in the wall? At the gym I go to, there's a route that requires your right hand to be in a crack to support yourself, but I always feel like I'm going to rip my fingers off (or some other terrible, bloody thing), so I wasn't able to complete it.

2) When should I start looking in to lead climbing? I do top-roping now, but would really like to learn to lead climb since it looks really fun and you look like a badass doing it. I'm sure I've got a ways to go though.... Oh and that being said, when you're upside down, how the hell do you not fall out of your harness if you fall off the wall?

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy

Start leading now. But if your gym only sets 10 and up for lead you will probably be top roping for a while longer. So lead outside instead. Top rope is no fun.

Manstrocity
Apr 28, 2009

CoasterMaster posted:

I started climbing seriously (as a hobby, I guess) at the beginning of the year and I go to the rock gym 2-3 times a week. Right now, I can pretty consistently climb 5.8 and a few days ago I finished my first 5.9. Two noob-questions have come up:

1) How do I use my hand in a crack in the wall? At the gym I go to, there's a route that requires your right hand to be in a crack to support yourself, but I always feel like I'm going to rip my fingers off (or some other terrible, bloody thing), so I wasn't able to complete it.

2) When should I start looking in to lead climbing? I do top-roping now, but would really like to learn to lead climb since it looks really fun and you look like a badass doing it. I'm sure I've got a ways to go though.... Oh and that being said, when you're upside down, how the hell do you not fall out of your harness if you fall off the wall?

1) "Jamming," which is much better explained with pictures than words, but is basically just wedging your hand in there. Put your hand, flat, thumb on top into the crack then shape your hand so it will resist pulling out, either - depending on the width of the crack - by making a fist or moving your thumb into your palm.

2) Think about the direction the rope will be pulling, even if you fall while upside down it will pull on the belay loop bringing your hips up with everything else below it. Also it sounds like you may not be wearing your harness right. Make sure the waist is around your actual waist, not your hips.

In conclusion leading is the best go do it now.

modig
Aug 20, 2002

I like to think that the person in orange who falls in the background at the end just fell off because they mind was blown.

CoasterMaster
Aug 13, 2003

The Emperor of the Rides


Nap Ghost

Manstrocity posted:

1) "Jamming," which is much better explained with pictures than words, but is basically just wedging your hand in there. Put your hand, flat, thumb on top into the crack then shape your hand so it will resist pulling out, either - depending on the width of the crack - by making a fist or moving your thumb into your palm.

2) Think about the direction the rope will be pulling, even if you fall while upside down it will pull on the belay loop bringing your hips up with everything else below it. Also it sounds like you may not be wearing your harness right. Make sure the waist is around your actual waist, not your hips.

In conclusion leading is the best go do it now.

Definitely wearing it right (confirmed with the staff today). I guess I expected something like suspender straps...call me paranoid I guess. Thanks for the advice on the jamming as I was able to complete that route today :). And sounds like I should start leading sooner. Luckily my gym has a couple 5.9 lead routes so it's not too far out of grasp.

Colonel J
Jan 3, 2008
I'm very interested in starting this sport and have been once to check out a local bouldering gym (Shakti Rock Gym in Montreal if anyone goes). It's a cool place and I'm buying shoes tonight with the intent of going back. I'm going to take a one hour lesson soon with friends but everyone's busy now so in the meantime I want to go by myself.

I did a few V0's and wanted to try a V1 but I was confused with the layout on the wall. I know the taped V's indicate the difficulty and the place for your hands, but sometimes it only showed 1 hand, or I didn't really know where to place my feet as there were no similar colors at the bottom. Basically some colors/markings seemed to be missing. When it happens is it just a "do whatever works" kinda thing?

asur
Dec 28, 2012

Colonel J posted:

I'm very interested in starting this sport and have been once to check out a local bouldering gym (Shakti Rock Gym in Montreal if anyone goes). It's a cool place and I'm buying shoes tonight with the intent of going back. I'm going to take a one hour lesson soon with friends but everyone's busy now so in the meantime I want to go by myself.

I did a few V0's and wanted to try a V1 but I was confused with the layout on the wall. I know the taped V's indicate the difficulty and the place for your hands, but sometimes it only showed 1 hand, or I didn't really know where to place my feet as there were no similar colors at the bottom. Basically some colors/markings seemed to be missing. When it happens is it just a "do whatever works" kinda thing?

Are they any feet? Some routes are in the V0/V1 range, otherwise I think it's more likely that you don't understand what the setter wants you to do rather than missing tape. Climbers are generally a friendly bunch, so if you have trouble just ask someone else on the wall. One starting handhold generally means you start with both hands matching on it, if you can't match then one hand on it and the other hand on the wall/balance and start from there.

edit: Just as a note, it's not that difficult to start a route with no feet if you have decent handholds so if this was just one route then I would think that would be likely.

asur fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Mar 10, 2014

Manstrocity
Apr 28, 2009

asur posted:

Are they any feet? Some routes are in the V0/V1 range, otherwise I think it's more likely that you don't understand what the setter wants you to do rather than missing tape. Climbers are generally a friendly bunch, so if you have trouble just ask someone else on the wall. One starting handhold generally means you start with both hands matching on it, if you can't match then one hand on it and the other hand on the wall/balance and start from there.

edit: Just as a note, it's not that difficult to start a route with no feet if you have decent handholds so if this was just one route then I would think that would be likely.

Also you can put a foot against the wall. Even if there isn't a hold, there may be a "feature," a crease or whatever you can use as a foot, and even if there isn't one of those you may just be able to use the friction of the shoe against the flat wall (this is "smearing").

Puseklepp
Jan 9, 2011

like watching the most beautiful ballerina on the best stage
I think I got the start of a tennis elbow, got some slight pain on the outside of my elbow, that started one day after my last rock climbing session one week ago. Even though it is not debilitating pain, I don't want to climb through injury and end up with something that'll take months to heal, so I skipped climbing this weekend. I have a couple of questions regarding this though:

a) I know rest is the most effective treatment, and what I will do until it's better. But when some years ago I had some tendonitis in my left arm my PT prescribed me some stretching and resistance exercises which helped recovery, is there any exercises I can do for tennis elbow as well, which you guys have found effective?

b) I don't think my injury came from overuse, in terms of climbing too much at least. I only climb once a week, and apart from that I work out 3-4 times in the gym, but mostly doing stuff that's not taxing on my forearm, except for back day I don't use my grip much for my exercises, and I never feel fatigue in my forearms from anything but climbing. I'm thinking my climbing technique, or what I do while climbing is probably the culprit. So I wonder if you could recommend any resources for me to read up on climbing technique while my elbow's healing?

Puseklepp fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Mar 10, 2014

modig
Aug 20, 2002
For tennis elbow check out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HkjuR42vzk

Also search for "thera bar", which lets you do the same basic exercise but its easier to do it in the car or other places where the weights are kind of a pain.

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Puseklepp
Jan 9, 2011

like watching the most beautiful ballerina on the best stage

modig posted:

For tennis elbow check out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HkjuR42vzk

Also search for "thera bar", which lets you do the same basic exercise but its easier to do it in the car or other places where the weights are kind of a pain.

Wouldn't it be better to use the exercise in their video for tennis elbow, rather than golfer's elbow, which you linked?

Edit: actually, watching both videos, I'm unsure which one apply to me. My pain is centered not on either side the guy describes as either tennis or golfer's elbow. My pain is centered kind of in the middle of the elbow I guess, like, close to the knob of bone in the middle of the elbow. If I reach out my arm with palm facing downwards, the pain is on the right side of the forearm, which made me think it's tennis elbow.

Edit2: I'd like to go to a PT, but last time I went to a PT here I had to wait one month.

Puseklepp fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Mar 10, 2014

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