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NikkolasKing posted:But anyway, what I wanted to get at is, do you think a well-written female (which I think Ashe is but if you disagree, just substitute your own favorite FF lady) can still be respectable even if she's designed like this? It really depends on the how and why. Costume design is just one part of a whole and not all costume design is created equal. Ashe's problem is that her design is bad in a number of ways. Even ignoring that it is just kind of lovely, it does a terrible job of communicating her character, personality, design, or anything like that. This doesn't necessarily ruin her by default but it is a serious knock against the characters simply because just looking at her communicates a different message. She looks poorly designed and that weakens her character because she is poorly designed. It isn't connected to anything else. FFVII did something similar: Tifa and Aerith are basically designed to look the opposite of what they are. Tifa is the quiet pure childhood friend and Aerith is the street-smart tomboyish type. However this was intentional and the incongruity between the design and the character is a big part of FFVII's "what it looks like is not what it is" design sense. And even despite that it lead a lot of people to assume Aerith was the Pure Maiden Waifu and Tifa was the tough-and-tumble tomgirl because the design of a character is incredibly important to people's perception of the character. To use Bayonetta as an example (based on your DmC thread posting): her design is full of sexuality but that is completely intentional and communicates what the character is going for and is a central emphasized part of the character. Her design communicates, at a glance, exactly the kind of character she is and the game emphasizes this. You can argue back and forth about Bayonetta's strengths or weaknesses but you are not getting anything but exactly what you expect from that character design. With a design like Ashe is not just that it is bad (it is.) It is that it is bad because the developer is lazy and seeking to include lovely fanservice designs without thought or reason. It devalues the character because you can't look at them without getting a mixed messaged about who they are and that can be even worse than poor writing. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Mar 10, 2014 |
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Mar 10, 2014 01:34
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Squallege posted:The Judges are the most clothed people in the game and they had no other choice than to be. This is loving awesome. I want armor like that for characters in all my RPGs.
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Mar 10, 2014 01:38
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Yeah, that pose makes no sense. She's either fully depressed or angry in general every time she's in a cutscene.
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Mar 10, 2014 01:38
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She looks more like she's ducking down to fit inside a tiny room to me. Ashe's clothes look less like a design and more like someone had a bunch of leftover scraps of clothing and tried to make it an outfit.
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Mar 10, 2014 01:39
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The Machine posted:This is loving awesome. I want armor like that for characters in all my RPGs.
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Mar 10, 2014 01:42
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It also stands out because like.. that is what she wears. It is what she wears when she is on the run, it is what she wears when she is queen, it is what she wears 24/7 except I guess when she's morning her dead husband. Garnet has her "Dagger" outfit but she also wears different clothing when serving as the princess in royal functions. Penello has her own outfit and changes it when she becomes a full-fledged dancer in the sequel. When Vaan becomes a sky pirate he puts on a drat shirt. Ashe? Wearing that poo poo 24/7. And it looks worse in other art styles. 
ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Mar 10, 2014 |
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Mar 10, 2014 01:44
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Haha, the costumes look funny. Such amazing insight from the Final Fantasy thread.
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Mar 10, 2014 01:57
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Eh. I dunno, after awhile I just got used to it. It's not really that bad. It's only clothes.
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Mar 10, 2014 01:57
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Nihilarian posted:I also like Drace's design. Standing up to Vayne was pretty badass, even if she got ganked half a minute later. Yeah. It kind of sucks that she was such a minor character in the game. She's a badass older woman which is something you very rarely see in video games. You don't even get to fight her as a boss - I think she's the only judge that you never fight (I'm not counting the Arena mode in ZJS since that's not connected to the story). She just kind of shows up in two scenes, and dies in the latter. I wonder if they'd been intending to do more with her but ended up cutting a lot of her part out? It seems weird that they'd go to the trouble of giving her a unique judge outfit, face and name, for how little she actually affects the story. Honestly in FF12 I felt like Ashe was the actual protagonist, even if they made Vaan the viewpoint character. Basically 90% of the story is about her. Ashe's outfit is dumb, but then pretty much every party character save Balthier has a pretty ridiculous looking outfit. Even Reks in the beginning has armour with an exposed midriff.
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Mar 10, 2014 01:58
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It still amuses me that there are still people who misinterpret Tifa and Aerith's characters based on appearances, because when they played the game as kids they didn't stop to realize that their personalities were different than what they imagined at first glance.forbidden lesbian posted:Haha, the costumes look funny. Such amazing insight from the Final Fantasy thread. 
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Mar 10, 2014 02:15
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T.G. Xarbala posted:It still amuses me that there are still people who misinterpret Tifa and Aerith's characters based on appearances, because when they played the game as kids they didn't stop to realize that their personalities were different than what they imagined at first glance.
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Mar 10, 2014 02:24
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The White Dragon posted:To be fair, their weapons and limit breaks even reinforce that white mage::brawler image, and Tifa keeps trying to put on a James Bond-ey "I'm comin' along too, gonna blow some poo poo up, let's infiltrate places" image while Aeris keeps doing selfless and motherly things the whole time. They aren't exactly consistent even within the game's narrative. Tifa spends most of the game fretting or getting comically jealous about Cloud and Aerith. Aerith spends most of the game teasing Cloud AND Tifa and basically acting like a flirtacious high school girl. The game manual puts it best when it says that her biggest priority seems to be deepening the love triangle between her, Tifa and Cloud. Aerith doesn't really do a whole lot of selfless OR motherly things, and she goes off to her death expecting full well to come back.
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Mar 10, 2014 02:26
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I thought when my name got changed I would never feel owned by this smiley again. I thought wrong.
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Mar 10, 2014 02:28
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NikkolasKing posted:So sorry if I'm like swerving things off in another direction but I brought up some srs businss talk in the DmC LP thread and it reminded me of a topic from a couple years ago on here. Some of you might remember it, it was called something like "Positive Portrayals of Women in Video Gaming." That shot has always bothered me. I'm pretty sure that whoever drew her in that pose had no idea what her personality or storyline was supposed to be. Which, given SE's development practices at the time, would not surprise me at all. But as others have said, a character's outfit is only part of the picture. I think Ashe did end up being a strong female character despite the miniskirt and armor-plated thigh-high stockings. For me, her character is defined by her words and actions and not by her getup. ImpAtom posted:It also stands out because like.. that is what she wears. It is what she wears when she is on the run, it is what she wears when she is queen, it is what she wears 24/7 except I guess when she's morning her dead husband. Well, that's not true. In the opening cinematics she is appropriately dressed for weddings and funerals. In the ending cinematic she is wearing a different, non-militant outfit. For the duration of the actual game, Ashe is always in the role of underground freedom fighter. She's never acting in her capacity as princess/queen. Unlike Garnet, she never has scenes where she just gets to go home and be royalty for a while.
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Mar 10, 2014 03:19
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The Cheshire Cat posted:Yeah. It kind of sucks that she was such a minor character in the game. She's a badass older woman which is something you very rarely see in video games. You don't even get to fight her as a boss - I think she's the only judge that you never fight (I'm not counting the Arena mode in ZJS since that's not connected to the story). She just kind of shows up in two scenes, and dies in the latter. I wonder if they'd been intending to do more with her but ended up cutting a lot of her part out? It seems weird that they'd go to the trouble of giving her a unique judge outfit, face and name, for how little she actually affects the story. Zargabaath is also never fought, but he's so minor he's the only Judge to survive the game. If you want to get really technical you could also count Reddas and Balthier. Agreeing that Drace is amazing.
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Mar 10, 2014 03:23
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Schwartzcough posted:Well, that's not true. In the opening cinematics she is appropriately dressed for weddings and funerals. In the ending cinematic she is wearing a different, non-militant outfit. For the duration of the actual game, Ashe is always in the role of underground freedom fighter. She's never acting in her capacity as princess/queen. Unlike Garnet, she never has scenes where she just gets to go home and be royalty for a while. I was discussing the sequels and other content as well. She's wearing the same outfit even in Revenat Wings even after Basche has upgraded to full Judge gear. It's really dumb.
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Mar 10, 2014 03:26
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Ragequit posted:The slowdown was fixed a year or so back by a fan patch. You need custom firmware to install it, but it makes the PSP version the best version. Unless you like the JP Scroll glitch for replays.
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Mar 10, 2014 04:09
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NikkolasKing posted:So sorry if I'm like swerving things off in another direction but I brought up some srs businss talk in the DmC LP thread and it reminded me of a topic from a couple years ago on here. Some of you might remember it, it was called something like "Positive Portrayals of Women in Video Gaming." You'd think they could make it look less like she's picking her nose too.
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Mar 10, 2014 04:14
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Fister Roboto posted:You'd think they could make it look less like she's picking her nose too. It's the typical "nose goes" pose.
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Mar 10, 2014 04:17
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Well remember that FF12 is set in Ivalice, so she's probably just going "What the hell is this thing on my face?"
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Mar 10, 2014 05:28
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The Cheshire Cat posted:Well remember that FF12 is set in Ivalice, so she's probably just going "What the hell is this thing on my face?" It also explains the abnormally long legs/short torso.
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Mar 10, 2014 05:49
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FFXII is one of my favourite Final Fantasies, and I'd like to think it's totally not because of that bit of artwork. Right?
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Mar 10, 2014 07:39
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ApplesandOranges posted:Zargabaath is also never fought, but he's so minor he's the only Judge to survive the game. You can fight all five Judge Magisters in the JP-only "improved" version, International Zodiac Job System. You fight them as a team on the last floor of the added EX-dungeon.
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Mar 10, 2014 07:41
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Also it's funny someone mentioned Dagger's practical adventuring attire in FFIX, since that's like one of the few games where Nomura had zero involvement with character designs. So instead of looking like they got in a fight with their closet (and lost), everyone in FFIX is dressed pretty reasonably. Except the Lindblum guards, I don't know what the hell is up with their uniform:  They look a little like the KKK and carry bird-spears.
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Mar 10, 2014 07:46
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Excels posted:So instead of looking like they got in a fight with their closet (and lost), everyone in FFIX is dressed pretty reasonably. You're talking about the game with this as the main antagonist: 
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Mar 10, 2014 07:51
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To be fair, a lot of medieval weaponry was Spear With Added Bits. A big whackin' hammer is actually pretty handy to have on the end of your poking stick.
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Mar 10, 2014 07:51
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Excels posted:They look a little like the KKK and carry bird-spears. They never did quite like them black mages coming in and ruining the property value Momomo posted:You're talking about the game with this as the main antagonist: Kuja made my younger self question a lot of things
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Mar 10, 2014 07:56
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Excels posted:They look a little like the KKK and carry bird-spears. Serious answer: stupid hats are kind of a weird aesthetic fixation in Japan, at least with Yoshitaka Amano's generation of designers.
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Mar 10, 2014 07:56
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Leal posted:Kuja made my younger self question a lot of things Wow, Kuja did? What terrible taste in men(?) you have.
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Mar 10, 2014 07:58
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Momomo posted:You're talking about the game with this as the main antagonist: Kuja was supposed to be a woman until like, the very last minute of development. And it makes sense for him to be overstylized because Kuja is insecure as gently caress and is obsessed with how people see him. Excels fucked around with this message at 08:00 on Mar 10, 2014 |
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Mar 10, 2014 07:58
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Kuja might be the only modern FF antagonist who is worse than Seymour.
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Mar 10, 2014 08:00
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Delsaber posted:Kuja might be the only modern FF antagonist who is worse than Seymour. No one is worse than Seymour.
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Mar 10, 2014 08:01
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Delsaber posted:Kuja might be the only modern FF antagonist who is worse than Seymour. Sorry if you think Kuja's a bad antagonist. That's a wrong opinion. 
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Mar 10, 2014 08:02
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Seymour actually owns, though? He's not as good as Kuja, but then who is these days.
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Mar 10, 2014 08:03
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Mr. Maltose posted:Seymour actually owns, though? He's not as good as Kuja, but then who is these days. Seymour's entire plan was based around Yuna consenting to marriage, then he forces her to and wonders why his plan doesn't work. He also refuses to die even after he's killed. Even after you kill his loving ghost you fight him again
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Mar 10, 2014 08:06
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Kuja is terrible and Seymour is terrible. It's just a matter of figuring out which is more terrible than the other.
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Mar 10, 2014 08:07
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Mr. Maltose posted:Seymour actually owns, though? He's not as good as Kuja, but then who is these days. Also assuming 'modern' FF is 7+ I'm hard-pressed to name an antagonist/villain that's better than Kuja. Hell, I can't think of one better than Seymour. At least they fit into the setting, and get personalities, and have some pathos. 13's main villain was a Space Pope that didn't really do anything till the last hour of the plot and 12 had...someone I guess? Yeah Empower Dude. He was there I guess. JENOVA's basically as close as you'll get but she might not actually be the villain because the script's aloof about whether or not it was her in control or Sephiroth. and 8 gave us someone who, once again, wasn't in the story til the very end and even then it didn't really make much sense.
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Mar 10, 2014 08:10
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Seymour rocks because he sees himself as a good guy because he's the logical end result of Yevonism, which is actually a death cult where murder by Death Whale (holy grail) is not only unavoidable but necessary to purify the world. No matter how good and proper we Yevonites are, we'll never be free from sin or SIN. Wait, says Seymour! This cycle of pain and death could easily be stopped. All we have to do is let EVERYONE DIE. My house is like one hundred feet away from actual Yevonite Purgatory, it doesn't seem all that bad. Certainly better than to struggle, to build in vain and attract only suffering. That's the reason Seymour isn't actually the final boss, because even Seymour is being manipulated by the lies of Yevonism.
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Mar 10, 2014 08:21
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Seymour was the least effective villain in the world since your party kept killing him before he got to actually do anything evil. It's comical in a way, but as an antagonist he was pretty terrible. I liked Kuja though, I just thought his design was... well, just look at it.
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Mar 10, 2014 08:24
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Momomo posted:Seymour was the least effective villain in the world since your party kept killing him before he got to actually do anything evil. It's comical in a way, but as an antagonist he was pretty terrible. What? He killed his father. He was already evil way before Tidus came to the world. edit: Also massacred a Ronso tribe.
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Mar 10, 2014 08:31
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