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Vayne's competence as a villain was somewhat undermined by his totally more competent and less insane shota-brother Larsa, who just wanted him to give peace a chance. Also the whole "turning into a magic robot dragon called The Undying, and then dying" thing
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Mar 10, 2014 18:31
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It's funny in retrospect, but my first time through 7 (which was my first JRPG) I remember being shocked during the flashback when I thought my 600 HP were getting bottomless and Sephiroth hits that dragon for 3,000+ damage. "How am I ever going to defeat this guy?" Effective to kid me in establishing him as something to be scared of when he would appear.
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Mar 10, 2014 18:31
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Schwartzcough posted:Oh come on, I gotta stick up for Vayne here. He was a well done, fleshed out and believable antagonist. Just because he wasn't a Dragon Ball villain with plans of blowing up the world and killing every living thing doesn't make him inferior to the other hokey villains of the series. His goals are highly sympathetic, and you don't have to turn your brain off to have his motivations make sense. The game establishes him as cold as loving ice, so you fear him not because his power level is over 9000, but because he's ruthless. Not that I'm saying Kuja is bad, but Vayne deserves more than a brushoff. That would all be true, if FF12 actually allowed anyone to have any screen time. Like Vayne shows up for like 10 30 cutscenes before ever actually coming face to face with our protagonists. He, like most of the story in 12, is so far removed from the actions of the party and the things the player gets to see/do first hand that it's basically a completely different plot. That's why I just brush off Vayne because he just doesn't really exist for most of the game as far as our protagonists (and thus the player) are concerned. The machinations of Vayne as an individual and his personal problems don't matter at all compared to the threat of the Empire as a whole.
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Mar 10, 2014 18:35
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Electromax posted:It's funny in retrospect, but my first time through 7 (which was my first JRPG) I remember being shocked during the flashback when I thought my 600 HP were getting bottomless and Sephiroth hits that dragon for 3,000+ damage. "How am I ever going to defeat this guy?" Effective to kid me in establishing him as something to be scared of when he would appear. I believe the Dragon will also only go after Young Cloud, and depending on ATB timing you will almost always die before each turn. Also worth noting that Seph will try to revive you at least twice, after that I think he just ignores you and kills the dragon to end the battle. e: also if you touch his equipment, a little window pops up of him going "..."
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Mar 10, 2014 18:42
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Excels posted:I believe the Dragon will also only go after Young Cloud, and depending on ATB timing you will almost always die before each turn. Also worth noting that Seph will try to revive you at least twice, after that I think he just ignores you and kills the dragon to end the battle. The dragon's AI is no different from the normal ones you find in Mt. Nibel seven years later, aside from using only its fire attack. It can target Sephiroth, hitting for 0HP of damage, and sometimes completely ignores Cloud.
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Mar 10, 2014 18:47
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It always went after me in the flashback 
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Mar 10, 2014 18:48
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:That would all be true, if FF12 actually allowed anyone to have any screen time. Like Vayne shows up for like 10 30 cutscenes before ever actually coming face to face with our protagonists. He, like most of the story in 12, is so far removed from the actions of the party and the things the player gets to see/do first hand that it's basically a completely different plot. That's why I just brush off Vayne because he just doesn't really exist for most of the game as far as our protagonists (and thus the player) are concerned. The machinations of Vayne as an individual and his personal problems don't matter at all compared to the threat of the Empire as a whole. It's actually a little funny when you finally confront him at the end of the game and he goes, '...Who are you?' I'm sure he meant it in some kind of metaphorical sense, but the idea that he has no idea who the motley crew he's up against even is is kind of amusing, because you've had no interaction with him before then.
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Mar 10, 2014 18:55
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Schwartzcough posted:Seymour always bothered me because his plan was so full of stupid. First, he wants to become Sin, which he should know requires an actual close bond with the summoner. So he tries to force Yuna into a loveless marriage at gunpoint, because that will make her love him? The very foundation of his plan would never work. For Point 1, I think it speaks to Seymour's frame of mind. I do not think it was an oversight on the writer's part to make him force Yuna into marriage and apparently think that formed a close enough bond. I think it was intentional to show just how hosed up in the head he was and how far he had fallen. He simply does not understand feelings or emotions like a well-adjusted person should. To him, Yuna being his wife is enough because....it just is. As for Point 2, there are a grand total of...six Unsents in the game. Auron, Seymour, Mika, the Leia summoner you train with, Lulu's first summoner and Yunalesca. Oh I guess that random monk that serves Yunalesca too. All of these people are pretty strong-willed and important in life. I mean, look at all the people who died in Operation Mi'Hen or at the Al Bhed's Home. They didn't come back. Just imagine a lot more of that. Excels posted:Vayne's competence as a villain was somewhat undermined by his totally more competent and less insane shota-brother Larsa, who just wanted him to give peace a chance. Well that's just because Larsa was the best and the real hero of the game. Also since we were talking about Drace earlier and are talking about Vayne now, I think this scene was just amazing and really helped everyone involved. Vayne became The Emperor, killed one of the two (maybe three) good Judges and the implication he was gonna murder Larsa is heavy in the air. That is a high point of contention between me and some other XII fans. I do not think Vayne would hesitate to off Larsa but a lot of people think he loved his little bro. Just more examples of why XII is teh best because there's so much room for interpretation and discussion. e: I totally just remembered that we see that scene after Al-Cid casually mentions to the group (which includes Larsa) that the Emperor was murdered. He just comes out and says your dad is dead. And then afterward he's like "oh...maybe I shouldn't have done that." NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Mar 10, 2014 |
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Mar 10, 2014 18:56
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I always liked that little scene in the Kalm flashback when you first enter the town and Sephiroth asks Cloud how it feels to have a hometown. It's a pretty great way to characterize the guy. And his little laugh when dismissing his father shows that he really didn't like Hojo.
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Mar 10, 2014 18:59
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What if there was a final fantasy or any RPG where there was no villain and all of the bad things were happening as a result of one of the party members' selfishness and lack of responsibility.
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Mar 10, 2014 19:02
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NikkolasKing posted:Also since we were talking about Drace earlier and are talking about Vayne now, I think this scene was just amazing and really helped everyone involved. Vayne became The Emperor, killed one of the two (maybe three) good Judges and the implication he was gonna murder Larsa is heavy in the air. Wait, there are people who think he wouldn't have killed Larsa?  Dude was loving stone-cold, he'd have done it without hesitation if it meant furthering his ambition.
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Mar 10, 2014 19:02
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NikkolasKing posted:For Point 1, I think it speaks to Seymour's frame of mind. I do not think it was an oversight on the writer's part to make him force Yuna into marriage and apparently think that formed a close enough bond. I think it was intentional to show just how hosed up in the head he was and how far he had fallen. He simply does not understand feelings or emotions like a well-adjusted person should. To him, Yuna being his wife is enough because....it just is. As to point 1, he may have been insane, or just stupid. But either way it shows that his plan was never really a threat. His accomplishments as a villain mostly boil down to his skeeziness making people uncomfortable. And I don't remember everyone's names, but I remember every Maester of Yevon except for the Ronso were unsent. The heroes showed up and were like "Seymour's an unsent ghoul!" and they all just laughed and said "yeah, us too!" The unsent were a pretty high percentage of the named characters in the game.
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Mar 10, 2014 19:07
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Kyrosiris posted:Dude was loving stone-cold... It was me, Larsa, it was me all along! Aww, son of a bitch!
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Mar 10, 2014 19:07
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Kyrosiris posted:Wait, there are people who think he wouldn't have killed Larsa? Nah, it's Vagrant Story. The elder brother carries the family's burden to keep the younger brother untainted. Part of his ambition was liberating the mortals ... so his brother could rule appropriately. Killing Larsa was the only thing he wouldn't do.
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Mar 10, 2014 19:11
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Mak0rz posted:Seifer was seduced by his headmaster's wife who was controlled by an evil witch from the future. Nihilarian fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Mar 10, 2014 |
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Mar 10, 2014 19:24
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Nihilarian posted:I'm not sure I'd say he was "seduced" considering he thought of her as his mother. Seduced in the "seduced to the dark side" sense, not the sexy sense.
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Mar 10, 2014 19:37
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Didn't Vayne off his other brothers, at some point? He'd totally shiv Larsa, if he believed it would benefit him.
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Mar 10, 2014 19:48
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Gologle posted:It was me, Larsa, it was me all along! I would pay double price to have a Final Fantasy game narrated by J.R.. And the final boss is beaten by hitting him with a steel folding chair. Schwartzcough posted:As to point 1, he may have been insane, or just stupid. But either way it shows that his plan was never really a threat. His accomplishments as a villain mostly boil down to his skeeziness making people uncomfortable. Well he killed a lot of Ronso and Al Bhed. But yes he wasn't a terribly effective villain in terms of getting things done. Also Kinoc, the fat Buddhist monk Maester who used to be Auron's friend, was most certainly alive because Seymour killed him. Pesky Splinter posted:Didn't Vayne off his other brothers, at some point? He'd totally shiv Larsa, if he believed it would benefit him. According to the scene when this is mentioned, Emperor Solidor ordered Vayne to kill the other brothers. I don't think it's ever really detailed but IIRC they were maybe plotting for the throne. Of course it's entirely possible Vayne just set them both up to give him a legitimate excuse to kill them. He's good at that.
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Mar 10, 2014 19:56
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Pesky Splinter posted:Didn't Vayne off his other brothers, at some point? He'd totally shiv Larsa, if he believed it would benefit him. He was under orders to bump them off from the Emperor. I just assumed there were a mess of heirs running around like Rosarans and the Emperor decided that the other brothers were unfit/backed by the senate as well as not being from his preferred spouse like Vayne and Larsa were.
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Mar 10, 2014 19:58
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NikkolasKing posted:Exactly. I remember the playthrough when I first found Vincent and brought him to confront Hojo at the end. I ended up feeling somewhat sorry for Sephiroth since he was clearly just a pawn of this unrepentant madman. It's very satisfying to beat him with Vincent. It's possible to recruit him after defeating Hojo, although unfortunately they didn't change the dialogue. You can think of it as Cloud lying to him that he'll get his revenge against Hojo just so he'll join the party and share his haircare tips. His fashion sense too, going by how Cloud dresses in Kingdom Hearts.
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Mar 10, 2014 19:58
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So I was reading a topic elsewhere about how some villains, by being villains, are being counterproductive. They could better achieve their ends if they were just a bit less evil. I was thinking of FFXII and how Vayne and the others might have been a bit nicer about what they did. Their methods were a lot nastier than their goals. There was absolutely no need to go around invading everyone or killing refugees and the Dalai Lama. Then I thought "maybe they were just trying to provoke Ashe and the other Occuria." But this is never stated anywhere and now a question occurs to me. Venat obviously knew where the Pharos and the Sun Cryst were. Why didn't she just fly Cid's rear end over there in the beginning? It's not like the lighthouse and island were buried deep underwater or something until the Occuria chose Ashe as their champion. (although it would have made more sense if they were submerged and inaccessible until this time)
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Mar 10, 2014 22:36
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Wasn't the issue that the Sword of Kings was needed to carve new bits off of the Sun Cryst?
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Mar 10, 2014 22:55
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Kyrosiris posted:Wasn't the issue that the Sword of Kings was needed to carve new bits off of the Sun Cryst?
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Mar 10, 2014 23:00
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Kyrosiris posted:Wasn't the issue that the Sword of Kings was needed to carve new bits off of the Sun Cryst? The Sword of Kings destroys Nethicite and renders it powerless because it's outdated and the enchantment laid on it is gone. The Occuria give Ashe the Treaty Blade to get her own shards but that wasn't what Cid was after since all they do is blow up poo poo. His words were "what good a power that cannot be harnessed" or something. The Sun Cryst's energy was better utilized in fueling their superweapon instead of blowing huge holes in the ground once and then being useless for years while it gathered more Mist. Although Cid does want her to destroy the Cryst with the Sword of Kings so I guess maybe he needed to push her along that far. Even still...seems needlessly elaborate. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Mar 10, 2014 |
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Mar 10, 2014 23:02
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NikkolasKing posted:The Sword of Kings destroys Nethicite and renders it powerless because it's outdated and the enchantment laid on it is gone. The Occuria give Ashe the Treaty Blade to get her own shards but that wasn't what Cid was after since all they do is blow up poo poo. His words were "what good a power that cannot be harnessed" or something. The Sun Cryst's energy was better utilized in fueling their superweapon instead of blowing huge holes in the ground once and then being useless for years while it gathered more Mist. Errr, yeah, sorry. I meant the Treaty-Blade, not the Sword of Kings. Getting my Important Named Ceremonial Swords mixed up. 
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Mar 10, 2014 23:06
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NikkolasKing posted:So I was reading a topic elsewhere about how some villains, by being villains, are being counterproductive. They could better achieve their ends if they were just a bit less evil. That was part one of his plan, but part two was 'become Supreme Military Dictator of Ivalice' which is kinda incompatible with the party's goals. It's hillarious how true that is for Bravely Default though.
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Mar 10, 2014 23:12
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I think the reason the Sun Cryst started spewing mist everywhere (which Cid collected for the Bahamut) was because it was semi-sentient and sensed it was in danger. In other words, in order to gather the energy from the Sun Cryst, Cid needed someone with both the desire to destroy the Cryst and the ability to destroy it (Ashe with her sword). I'm guessing a lot of his goading her for hungering power was reverse psychology to make her destroy the Sun Cryst.
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Mar 10, 2014 23:15
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NikkolasKing posted:So I was reading a topic elsewhere about how some villains, by being villains, are being counterproductive. They could better achieve their ends if they were just a bit less evil. I think killing the fantasy Dalai Lama actually does fit in with their goals in the game though. Yeah they were all a bunch of really nice people but just being a religious organization kind of goes against the whole "taking the history back from the gods" thing.
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Mar 10, 2014 23:28
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Mak0rz posted:Seifer was seduced by his headmaster's wife who was controlled by an evil witch from the future. Future Witch can only control one witch at a time, or she wouldn't have released Mom Witch and Dog Witch on the way to Beef Witch.
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Mar 10, 2014 23:58
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Overbite posted:What if there was a final fantasy or any RPG where there was no villain and all of the bad things were happening as a result of one of the party members' selfishness and lack of responsibility. I'm guessing you haven't played Mana Khemia? The combat in that game's ridiculously fun too.
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Mar 10, 2014 23:58
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Does anyone have the link to the subbed FF15 trailer about fashion?
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Mar 11, 2014 01:21
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fronz posted:Does anyone have the link to the subbed FF15 trailer about fashion? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ1q5UFKimI Made by Pesky Splinter.
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Mar 11, 2014 01:35
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That trailer looks like a game I have been wanting to play forever! HOLY poo poo that might be my first "Just gonna have to buy a PS4 I guess!" game.
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Mar 11, 2014 01:44
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That loving Sned posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ1q5UFKimI I want to play FFX-2 part 2.
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Mar 11, 2014 01:49
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Bust Rodd posted:That trailer looks like a game I have been wanting to play forever! HOLY poo poo that might be my first "Just gonna have to buy a PS4 I guess!" game. Now you get to feel how I've felt over the last eight years. There was another trailer that was pure gameplay, if you're interested. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Wsh9iPrWSg
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Mar 11, 2014 02:04
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forbidden lesbian posted:I want to play FFX-2 part 2. No you don't.
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Mar 11, 2014 02:27
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Imagine if FF15 is just your typical Ivalice political/supernatural plot but with modernized looks and the fantasy yakuza.
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Mar 11, 2014 02:29
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From what i can glean from that trailer, it looks to be like a Kingdom Hearts style ARPG, but with a focus on different weapons having different attributes and mobility options? Also the two dudes you roll with seem hit or miss. i didn't really notice the big tattoo dude do anything cool but the gunslinger is running all over the place shooting monsters point blank, so that could be cool.
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Mar 11, 2014 02:30
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Mar 11, 2014 02:33
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This changes nothing.
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Mar 11, 2014 02:35
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