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MisterBibs posted:Except that you seemingly forgot this when designing one of the main paths the player can take. One of the paths through the game has enemies that I can't defeat when I'm reasonably expected to be there. If the path is not for my level, why is it there? Deathclaw City isn't next to V101 for a reason. A game is not an endorphin dispenser that you are supposed to have full command over. If you want that, try going to the hospital and getting hooked up to a morphine drip. I've heard they're very nice. A game is, to approximate, a set of challenges set by the developer that you are expected to solve with a set of tools. The accomplishment is not in the destination- otherwise, why bother actually playing the game? When I see the lovely ending in a tough Doom levelset, I'm not happy because of the lines of text on the screen- I'm happy because the lines of text signify that I've passed all of the designer's challenges- that I've "beaten" him. You seem to have this bizarre philosophy (which I remember from the XCOM thread) where you assume that people like winning games, and therefore any obstacle to winning is bad. But when you remove the obstacles to victory, you also remove the entire point of victory in the first place.
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Mar 15, 2014 03:08
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New Vegas's world was more than just a string of mostly unrelated locations, which was a huge strike against it right there.
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Mar 15, 2014 03:11
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Pope Guilty posted:New Vegas's world was more than just a string of mostly unrelated locations, which was a huge strike against it right there. I think the pretty natural and non-invasive railroading along the Nipton path was perhaps the greatest improvement over F3 (the first time I tried playing F3 I didn't even notice Megaton) which is why I don't see the big deal about being able to ignore it (if you try really hard).
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Mar 15, 2014 03:16
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steinrokkan posted:It's an option you could technically take, but from the perspective of a novice player there's literally no reason for him to do that, and even if he did it on a whim he would end up stranded in the middle of the world having bypassed the entire exposition highway. It's a speedrun tactic that requires advance knowledge, not something that makes sense from the roleplaying perspective of this RPG.
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Mar 15, 2014 03:21
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steinrokkan posted:I think the pretty natural and non-invasive railroading along the Nipton path was perhaps the greatest improvement over F3 (the first time I tried playing F3 I didn't even notice Megaton) which is why I don't see the big deal about being able to ignore it (if you try really hard). Oh yeah, every time I start playing 3 I have to remember which nondescript brown-grey blob is Megaton. It's easy to just walk right by most of the locations in that game.
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Mar 15, 2014 03:28
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The cazadore road in NV is basically just like going down that tower in Dark Souls and getting smashed into paste by a statue cosplayer swinging a dragon dick at you. If you're good enough, you can get through and it's rewarding. If you're not, you go somewhere else for a while.
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Mar 15, 2014 03:49
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rope kid posted:You clearly did not want more challenge and that's fine. As I see it it's less about some abstract concept of challenge than it is one of "Where do I want to go, and what things that are going to try to get in my way of getting there?" You cite random encounters from the earlier games. If "sometimes there's Cazadors flying around the North Path", I wouldn't have as much issue as I do. They'd function exactly like the random encounters from F1 and F2: either they'd die, or I'd die and upon reloading - saints and begorra - I could take that path and the interference magically doesn't exist anymore. But since they are always there, either I feel the need to cheese or cheat through an area a minute's walk from the starting town... or take a practically-identical route that I took last time. Hell of a negative for a game series that has otherwise rewarded and encouraged exploration and alternate paths, especially the latest one, which could best be described as a big neon sign saying THIS IS HOW YOU DO FALLOUT, FOLKS. I don't hate your game, rope kid. It's the first of the series that made me feel  after I was done, and I don't like that feeling from a Fallout game.  Fag Boy Jim posted:A game is not an endorphin dispenser that you are supposed to have full command over. Sure it is. It's a game. As for the 'total control' part of it: modability and altering the game to be more enjoying comes part-and-parcel with it. Some people make mods to correct Ulysses's determining which side you're on. Some people make mods to remove arbitrary beef-gates (good lord, I think I just used a  line) from starting zones.
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Mar 15, 2014 03:54
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MisterBibs posted:
MisterBibs posted:A rare "brought down and I never even played it" case: Sounds like you had your mind made up to begin with, bro. Abhorrence fucked around with this message at 04:54 on Mar 15, 2014 |
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Mar 15, 2014 03:59
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MisterBibs posted:Just to be clear, I'm going to make a mod that eliminates the Cazadors from the North Path exclusively, since they have no place so close to the starting area and my house mod requires me to navigate there. I like them both once I have gear that let's me deal with them. Which is when they are acceptable. It's totally unacceptable that the designers put difficult enemies between you and your house mod, I agree. Abhorrence posted:Sounds like you had our mind made up to begin with, bro. I want to believe he's a troll now, because it's much more pathetic if he's not
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Mar 15, 2014 04:09
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Brian Fargo I don't know if you're reading this, but I was playing Fallout and decided to go west from Vault 13 instead of east. Soon I was running into super mutants at some base who were one-shotting me! Why are you stopping me from having fun 
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Mar 15, 2014 04:26
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If the mod you are too bad at games to get to without cheating is so hard to get to get a different mod house? there are like, 100+ mod houses, a few of which are right in Goodsprings.
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Mar 15, 2014 04:42
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Abhorrence posted:Sounds like you had your mind made up to begin with, bro. Not really. Much to my surprise, much of what I detailed in that post didn't wind up being true, not bothering me, or negatively alter how I felt about the game as I played. It was a whole slew of other stuff that bugged the hell out of me. Like people said to me in the other thread, a wiki-spoiler can't really reflect how a game plays. Trust me, when it comes to Fallout, I would have been ecstatic if I wound up digging it. KittyEmpress posted:there are like, 100+ mod houses, a few of which are right in Goodsprings. I like the one I'm using  It has everything where I need it (the only exception being that it's past a pointless beef-gate, but that's a trivial flaw to fix), and if the mod had the location auto-discovered, I wouldn't have the issue since I'd be fast-traveling and teleporting back with nary a fuss.Edit: vvvv Except that the Deathclaw Promontory isn't five minute's walk from the first city. Are you guys seriously trying to argue that the area around the starting zone in an open-world game is a perfectly acceptable location for mid-to-high level monsters? No, just no. It's not fun. It's why I'm not playing with jsawyer or hardcore or whatever other nonsensical "Harder for... reasons" mods. MisterBibs fucked around with this message at 05:31 on Mar 15, 2014 |
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Mar 15, 2014 05:01
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I installed a house mod but it's located in the Deathclaw Promontory loving idiot Obsidian why'd you design a challenging area if you knew it'd get in the way of ~mods~
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Mar 15, 2014 05:13
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MisterBibs posted:Edit: vvvv Except that the Deathclaw Promontory isn't five minute's walk from the first city. Are you guys seriously trying to argue that the area around the starting zone in an open-world game is a perfectly acceptable location for mid-to-high level monsters? No, just no. It's not fun. It's why I'm not playing with jsawyer or hardcore or whatever other nonsensical "Harder for... reasons" mods. Yeah, at the very least you'd think they'd put up multiple signs warning you away, as well as have multiple NPCs mention how you probably shouldn't go there, including one who literally stops you in a scripted event if you stray too close to the cazadore death zone. What a bunch of assholes.
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Mar 15, 2014 05:50
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YEah I think having an area full of high level monsters is pretty cool. It makes you actually feel like you accomplished something. Also Cazadores aren't that hard to kill even at level 1 without the DLC weapons. Sneak attack, shoot the wing, run away, wow! I mean I'm sorry you're a big baby who when told 'hey this is tough don't go this way you might die' goes 'yeah RIGHT like they'd really kill me right away' and then complains when they do. You remind me of a streamer I watched play Dark Souls as my second introduction to the game, who escaped the asylum and then ran down into the skeletons for like 2 hours straight, by the end screaming into his mic as he tried to run past about how this was bullshit and the game designers were bad Or that guy who saw the asylum demon at the first fight and ran into it trying to attack it for a 55 minute youtube video, who didn't find out about 'walk through door' until someone in the comments told him. basically bad yeah
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Mar 15, 2014 06:00
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Ok dude at first I kinda saw your complaints as legitimate because I don't really like any of the factions in NV either but now it's a little bit overkill. Re: Cazador fuckery: Personally I wouldn't be in favor of the game plopping down super high level monsters either if they didn't explicitly tell you it's dangerous to go that way several times. I can see your gripe with it and I understand why you would feel the way you do but there are three directions that aren't north of Goodsprings that lead you to things that don't kill you as fast but are still interesting. One of those directions is the direction the game wants you to go which you are again free to ignore. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 06:04 on Mar 15, 2014 |
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Mar 15, 2014 06:01
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also if you really want to not go the right way, get down to the skydive shack on the 'correct' path and take the road the opposite way. You'll run into like, a single Blind Deathclaw on the road between you and new vegas, if you stick to the road. I guess that doesn't help you get to your fancy house though
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Mar 15, 2014 06:03
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Wolfsheim posted:Yeah, at the very least you'd think they'd put up multiple signs warning you away, as well as have multiple NPCs mention how you probably shouldn't go there, including one who literally stops you in a scripted event if you stray too close to the cazadore death zone. What a bunch of assholes. If you're designing a place that's dangerous enough that you're putting up multiple warning signs and NPC-discouragers to dissuade low-level players from visiting there, said place shouldn't be located near the starting area. At this point I'm tempted to  out harder by marking on a FO3 map where Deathclaws can be found. Pretty sure the results will be "Nowhere Near Vault 101".
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Mar 15, 2014 06:12
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Yeah but the point isn't 'where Fallout 3 put things' because Fallout 3 was a bad game and Deathclaws in it weren't a threat at level 1 anyways, since Vats gave 95% damage resistance, meaning even a shirtless punching character could take like 8 hits while in Vats. putting a high level area near the starting one is actually a pretty common thing in games, because it lets players get a sense of progression when they can come back and kill those things, as well as being a treat for people who are good enough to get through without needing it. Why is it so hard to understand that just because you want to beat your head against it doesn't mean that should be pandered to? If it's really that hard for you just use more console commands and give yourself some god weapons or god mode.
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Mar 15, 2014 06:16
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MisterBibs posted:If you're designing a place that's dangerous enough that you're putting up multiple warning signs and NPC-discouragers to dissuade low-level players from visiting there, said place shouldn't be located near the starting area. you are a 16 year old dipshit who cannot understand the term 'difficulty' aside from 'can render my avatar of gaming nonsense as slightly less than godlike' 
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Mar 15, 2014 06:28
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MisterBibs posted:If you're designing a place that's dangerous enough that you're putting up multiple warning signs and NPC-discouragers to dissuade low-level players from visiting there, said place shouldn't be located near the starting area. Why? After your first playthrough it's fun to mess around in high level areas without having to soldier through all the early game content again (see: the lovely low-level dungeon you have to get through every time you play Skyrim just to unlock a core mechanic). One of my more inspired moves at Level 3 or so was sneaking past the cazadores (which isn't hard at all if you use the hills and don't literally walk straight down the road) grabbing the attention of the Vipers hanging around Bonnie Springs and ducking behind some nearby bighorners when they opened fire. When one of their babies got winged by a stray bullet the entire herd descended upon the Vipers. When all was said and done one Viper was standing with a sliver of health, and I simply walked up and shot him in the face. Combat armor, Love & Hate, a trail carbine and an assortment of decent loot to sell off a couple hours into the game  ...but you're essentially saying no, the player is that dumb and needs to have their hand held lest they run into something that cannot be easily overcome and it ruins the game for them. Uggghhh everything bad about modern game design is attributable to your stupid rear end
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Mar 15, 2014 06:38
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I normally think the word "entitled" is thrown around way too much, but bitching at the lead designer of a game because one specific mod decided to put something you want in a difficult to reach(not really, but to you it is anyways) location is pretty much the perfect example of it, holy poo poo.
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Mar 15, 2014 06:42
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MisterBibs posted:If you're designing a place that's dangerous enough that you're putting up multiple warning signs and NPC-discouragers to dissuade low-level players from visiting there, said place shouldn't be located near the starting area.. Why not? Seriously, a preset path's already been laid out for you. Just because the option's there doesn't mean you HAVE to take it. It's like the Arroyo -> Navarro run in Fallout 2; it's hard as balls, and definitely not for a new player, but a veteran can do it no prob Bob. Same case here- a new player should follow the Nipton route, but a veteran who's gone a few rounds can test himself by going through the Deathclaws/Cazadores. If he succeeds, there's that sense of accomplishment, if not, he's learned something. Vulpes even has unique remarks if you meet him at Nipton after doing Vegas. For me, that's why I prefer NV over F3, and I liked F3; no matter what, New Vegas is YOUR story, while F3 wants you to play its story from the get go. First time I played, I stumbled across Tranquility Lane on my first go, and then I had to follow Dad etc. Again and again I was reminded that I wasn't playing F3, I was being led through it, that I was simply being railroaded through someone else's campaign.
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Mar 15, 2014 06:42
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rope kid posted:If we were actually concerned about you seeing "our stuff", we would not have designed the game around skipping huge sections of the crit path, killing literally any and every non-child NPC you come across, and having three+ routes to take to the end of the game. All of those things required us to do an enormous amount of up-front planning or they would completely fall apart in the end product. It is completely anti-"we want you to see our stuff". I really like this philosphy. A world shouldn't be screaming and yelling at the player to come take a gander at all of it's secrets. They're secrets. They're supposed to be hidden. That's the whole point. And whether they're hidden underground or behind giant, poisonous, insectoid death, or artillery shells, or giant dinosaur lizard monsters, it's probably not a secret worth knowing about. And if it was worth knowing about and wasn't actually hidden, somebody would've set up a ticket counter and started charging admission. Misterbibs posted:Yes, that's why I said that the only things you can influence are trivialities. You can punch better. You can be good at science. But you're still a Vault Dweller. You know indisputably where you grew up and who you grew up with, creating an attachment to the setting. Yes because the only thing of interest is the town someone is from, and there's never any reason to justify a character's personality or proficiencies with back-stories, and until you stepped into the character creation menu you were just V13 Dweller X. There is literally nothing you can do with your character because you're from Vault 13. Hm, yes. More than one person points out how the current conflict is going to shape society as it exists. Sure, the world isn't going to be destroyed by loving super space dragons or not-demons from not-hell or whatever the gently caress, it's just the fate of humanity as it remains is going to be heavily dependent on this whole war thing going on, and all of the known civilization pretty much depends on the outcome of this upcoming, and everyone in a position of power is looking to use you as a free agent because you're on their fuckin radar. These people don't see loving walk-ins, they have actually heard about your exploits and want you to see them. You've impressed them, and you've never met them, and you certainly weren't trying to. You're a crazy competent fucker, you get poo poo done, and you're also the lynchpin for getting House out of the picture. E: It's also totally reasonable to have poo poo next to the starting area. There are signs saying "Beware of dragons" and you're assuming that you can handle the dragons, or they won't actually be there, or some other dumb poo poo, because why would people say "Hey don't go that way, loving blood dragons are being mad as poo poo" if you werent' meant to go deal with the blood dragons, right? i mean you're goddamned the player character, you should be able to handle any and all challenges at any given moment in the game. SpookyLizard fucked around with this message at 06:47 on Mar 15, 2014 |
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Mar 15, 2014 06:44
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SpookyLizard posted:I mean you're goddamned the player character, you should be able to handle any and all challenges at any given moment in the game. The sad thing is, as has been proven over and over again, is that you are. You just need to prepare a bit, and I don't mean 'go back at level 50' either. I do admit it's more fun though.
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Mar 15, 2014 06:52
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With open world type games I like that there's a way for the new player to go that you're guided along a path, but if you play the game a second time you can go "Well I'll go this path then, I've played the game so I have experience to try and get around this harder path". Why would I play an open world game the exact same way twice when I have the option to do something different to see what happens?
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Mar 15, 2014 06:58
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CommissarMega posted:The sad thing is, as has been proven over and over again, is that you are. You just need to prepare a bit, and I don't mean 'go back at level 50' either. I do admit it's more fun though. In New Vegas though, I like to think that as being more of a matter of being a good player than anything else. Gearing up properly, shooting straight, and conserving ammo (as well as not making deals with dragons), can help you dramatically in overcoming challenges you other wise would be unable to handle. And I think that's a good thing.
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Mar 15, 2014 06:58
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SpookyLizard posted:In New Vegas though, I like to think that as being more of a matter of being a good player than anything else. Gearing up properly, shooting straight, and conserving ammo (as well as not making deals with dragons), can help you dramatically in overcoming challenges you other wise would be unable to handle. And I think that's a good thing. I don't know- shouldn't that come under 'being prepared', though? Hell, I'm as casual a gamer as they come and I managed the Deathclaw run after a short while (second or third go, can't remember- I had finished the game once though).
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Mar 15, 2014 07:01
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Is death claw ally even really "near" the starting area, or the cazadores for that matter? Sure that mod "forces" you to get near them but in no way is that near the starting area. Near the starting area is FO3 walking onto the road near the vault and getting murded by a guy in power armor with a flamethrower. Not that wasn't a fun experience.
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Mar 15, 2014 07:07
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^^ No Deathclaws. Going N from Goodsprings has you basically on top of the Cazador-infested Tribal Village. If you keep going, you wind up being close-but-not-enough-to-aggro Bonnie Springs, and from there it's reasonably clear sailing to Vegas. Hell, you can pop Cook-Cook's cow as you go, causing that area to be easy mop-up. Wolfsheim posted:Uggghhh everything bad about modern game design is attributable to your stupid rear end To kinda/sorta borrow from a comic book character: And the gaming universe is better for it. At least for me and others like me. A Fancy 400 lbs posted:I normally think the word "entitled" is thrown around way too much, but bitching at the lead designer of a game because one specific mod decided to put something you want in a difficult to reach(not really, but to you it is anyways) location is pretty much the perfect example of it, holy poo poo. Just so we're clear, the house-mod part of it is only a secondary issue, that I hadn't even thought about until I was penning the post. My main beef is that the one of the genre's core tenets is "You can go anywhere from the starting locale", and NV breaks with that by lopping one of the paths you'd might take for reasons that don't really convince me that it'd a valid or reasonable idea. CommissarMega posted:Why not? Seriously, a preset path's already been laid out for you. Just because the option's there doesn't mean you HAVE to take it. Because it's an open-world game? And if I want to load Save #1 and go "Huh, I went right last time, I'll go left", by God, I should be able to? That there's not a Easy/Hard/Impossible path, only different paths? SpookyLizard posted:Yes because the only thing of interest is the town someone is from, and there's never any reason to justify a character's personality or proficiencies with back-stories, and until you stepped into the character creation menu you were just V13 Dweller X. There is literally nothing you can do with your character because you're from Vault 13. Hm, yes. This, but unironically. You're from Vault 13, so stuff that happens to Vault 13 provides reasonable motivation for any Fallout character you play, trivial backstories/proficiencies be damned. You're from Arroyo, so stuff that happens to Arroyo provides reasonable for any Fallout 2 character you play. You're Jame's son, so stuff that happens to him provides reasonable motivation for any Fallout 3 character. The Blank-Slate nature of the NV protagonist removes any inherent motivation past Get Revenge, Deliver Chip. I used the where-you're-from example because it's the easiest way to engender motivation for the Courier. After three games, "provide my character with basic motivation to get involved in the Second Main Task after the First Main Task is complete" isn't asking for much, is it? During my sourjourn through the thread before posting, there were quite a few posts relating stories how the poster's friends were more engaged with 3 than NV, because (shock and awe) they did the main quest and didn't bother with the side-quests. Side-quests are fine and dandy, but if you're relying on them to make you like/dislike the Core Factions in the game, something is dangerously wrong. Don't get me wrong, the NV team did manage some solid-fried gold examples of good character-building for the factions. Nipton shows off the Legion's brutality, and the Powder Gangers represent NCR's inability to handle things effectively. As I type this, I realize that these should be enough to motivate me to side with one against the other, but ultimately I can honestly say it didn't feel like there was enough of it where it needed to be, hiding in sidequests. I should be getting this stuff in the main quest, not when I'm looking for one more Boone Point so I can fix his issues so I don't get a lovely ending for him. Maybe it'd be less of a negative for me if the Yes Man route was more "Everyone sucks, I'm taking everyone out" and less "I WANT TO CONTROL VEGAS". SpookyLizard posted:E: It's also totally reasonable to have poo poo next to the starting area. There are signs saying "Beware of dragons" and you're assuming that you can handle the dragons, or they won't actually be there, or some other dumb poo poo, because why would people say "Hey don't go that way, loving blood dragons are being mad as poo poo" if you werent' meant to go deal with the blood dragons, right? i mean you're goddamned the player character, you should be able to handle any and all challenges at any given moment in the game. This, but unironically. MisterBibs fucked around with this message at 07:46 on Mar 15, 2014 |
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Mar 15, 2014 07:37
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MisterBibs posted:Just so we're clear, the house-mod part of it is only a secondary issue, that I hadn't even thought about until I was penning the post. My main beef is that the one of the genre's core tenets is "You can go anywhere from the starting locale", and NV breaks with that by lopping one of the paths you'd might take for reasons that don't really convince me that it'd a valid or reasonable idea.
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Mar 15, 2014 08:08
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I have had no problems killing any of the cazadors with the starting rifle and deathclaws don't have a very big aggro radius if you're sneaking. Having to actually watch where I was going was far more interesting, instead of blazing through deathclaws that did 5 damage total in Fallout 3. How bad do you have to be to deem those obstacles "impassable"? e: checked his rap sheet, I don't know why I wasted time on this post Anime Schoolgirl fucked around with this message at 08:24 on Mar 15, 2014 |
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Mar 15, 2014 08:21
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MisterBibs posted:Because it's an open-world game? And if I want to load Save #1 and go "Huh, I went right last time, I'll go left", by God, I should be able to? That there's not a Easy/Hard/Impossible path, only different paths? But it IS a different path, just one that demands skill sets other than 'plow through blindly'. The reason I said it's different is because most other games do encourage that tactic, and you need a little time to get used to thinking outside the box. If anything, New Vegas encourages open-world play- the easiest way to get through the north passage is with a Stealth Boy. How do you get a Stealth Boy? By exploring Goodpsirngs.
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Mar 15, 2014 08:29
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CommissarMega posted:But it IS a different path, just one that demands skill sets other than 'plow through blindly'. The reason I said it's different is because most other games do encourage that tactic, and you need a little time to get used to thinking outside the box. If anything, New Vegas encourages open-world play- the easiest way to get through the north passage is with a Stealth Boy. How do you get a Stealth Boy? By exploring Goodpsirngs. Unless you can blindly walk into any point of the game at any time with no strategy and win with minimal effort than it's bad game design. EDIT: I'm still fairly convinced that poster's a troll, but I've heard it before and find it kind of amazing that anyone gave a poo poo about Liam Neeson dad in Fallout 3. He was such an inconsistent non-character, and I found it almost hilarious that he is the sole reason you are exiled from the vault, then when you finally find him he berates you for it. Wolfsheim fucked around with this message at 08:50 on Mar 15, 2014 |
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Mar 15, 2014 08:44
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god can you use dangerously more frequently in a goddamned sentence
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Mar 15, 2014 08:52
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I should be able to handle everything and anything at all points in the game
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Mar 15, 2014 08:55
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If the challenges offered on two paths are of exactly the same difficulty, require the same skill set, and they lead to the same location, you haven't actually chosen a different path. You've chosen the same path, but with slightly different scenery. If there's no difference between areas on the map other than "distance from starting point", then you haven't really got an open world, you've got a very wide straight line. Also, what the gently caress is Mr. House saying "help me out and I'll get you some sweet digs and robot guards" or yes man saying "hey I know how to take over new vegas let's do it buddy" other than a motivation? NV assumes you'll be motivated by profit or power or patriotism, as opposed to the weird messiah complex having or father worshiping main character of 3.
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Mar 15, 2014 09:16
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IMO "I don't like being funneled into one of two paths at the beginning of an open-world game and prefer Bethesda's more directionless approach" would be a more apropos criticism. Not necessarily *right*, mind you, but I can understand it, at least. Complaining about the game putting obstacles on one of those two paths, on the other hand, does end up feeling a bit , yeah. That said, pretty much all the FO3 people I've read on the internet that didn't like FO:NV had similar arguments, and not being engaged by any of the factions or by the plot was a big one. I'm not really sure how I'd fix that/act on that if I were rope kid, because making something well written while also maintaining the kind of ample character agency margins that are one of the pillars of Fallout is a tall order, and pretty much every player has different tastes and different *~engagement~* requirements. (I'd probably drop Caesar's Legion in their current incarnation, though.)
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Mar 15, 2014 09:18
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If 'kill all the bosses and take the gently caress over for yourself' doesnt entice you to play the goddamned fan youre loving broken human being who doesnt know what fun is.
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Mar 15, 2014 09:24
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People who complain that none of the options are all that good are kinda missing the point to be honest. Why yes, you do only have four options that each suck in their own way. That's how real problems work. A choice between the same faction in different clothes, or between an obviously good and an obviously bad faction is barely a choice at all, let alone an interesting one.
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Mar 15, 2014 09:24
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