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double nine posted:Enemies everywhere! GOGOGO! Furism posted:I will destroy you! My point exactly  But seriously though, it doesn't really take away all that much to have relatively silent fights if there's enough going on elsewhere to keep us occupied.
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Mar 17, 2014 10:15
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I demand that all my characters call out their attack names like in Street Fighter
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Mar 17, 2014 10:25
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AnonSpore posted:I demand that all my characters call out their attack names like in Street Fighter That's stupid- real men call out their attacks like Kenshiro. Seriously Obsidian, Fist of the North Star DLC, you know you want to.
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Mar 17, 2014 10:29
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Clever Spambot posted:A million times this. That's where we disagree. As silly as the marketing hype was about the button-awesome connection was for DA2 the intent was valid. DAO was kind of dumb where you set your melee up with passives and just enough focus or stamina for an oh poo poo stun while you microed your mages. Making someone a third rate citizen leads to poo poo like this whole conversation about how to not make auto barks or animations or sound clips repepetive. The answer is to not need them by focusing your attention on actual fun stuff.
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Mar 17, 2014 10:47
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zedprime posted:That's where we disagree. As silly as the marketing hype was about the button-awesome connection was for DA2 the intent was valid. DAO was kind of dumb where you set your melee up with passives and just enough focus or stamina for an oh poo poo stun while you microed your mages. Honestly you could do a little bit more than that with melees in DAO. Especially on the harder difficulties.
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Mar 17, 2014 10:51
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zedprime posted:That's where we disagree. As silly as the marketing hype was about the button-awesome connection was for DA2 the intent was valid. DAO was kind of dumb where you set your melee up with passives and just enough focus or stamina for an oh poo poo stun while you microed your mages. Ah yes, the quantifiable "fun stuff". That is the way to make a game. Just put more "fun" into it.
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Mar 17, 2014 10:52
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zedprime posted:That's where we disagree. As silly as the marketing hype was about the button-awesome connection was for DA2 the intent was valid. DAO was kind of dumb where you set your melee up with passives and just enough focus or stamina for an oh poo poo stun while you microed your mages. This is how I played Baldur's Gate and it's how I intend to play PoE. Ropekid's said all classes are going to be able to tilt towards passive or active playstyles so you'll be able to play the game as you want and I'll be able to play the game as I want, where's the harm in that?
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Mar 17, 2014 10:59
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verybad posted:It's actually a really loving good thing in a party-based game like this that not every unit requires the same amount of micro. You don't want every character to have six billion active abilities, because a. it gets tedious to micromanage all those abilities and b. it's just a party of 6 wizards at that point so why even have different classes. "Active abilities = wizard" is really dumb and that kind of mindset is partially responsible for fighter characters so often being boring to play in games both video and tabletop, so... your opinion is bad, I guess I'm saying.
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Mar 17, 2014 11:16
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It'd be great to play a game where the fighter is the active, micromanagement class (because parrying and poo poo is hard!) while the wizard is the boring passive guy. I mean he's just sitting in the back throwing fireballs, why would you need to control every action? Guy just has to mumble some words and wave his hands about and bam, there's some magic! Easy peasy compared to a real class who actually gets involved in the melee. Ropekid has already said classes can be built towards passivity or activity anyway so if you want a more active fighter or more passive wizard you can build them that way.
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Mar 17, 2014 11:26
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I would increase my kickstarter if it went directly towards having 10,000 barks recorded.
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Mar 17, 2014 11:55
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LogicNinja posted:"Active abilities = wizard" is really dumb and that kind of mindset is partially responsible for fighter characters so often being boring to play in games both video and tabletop, so... your opinion is bad, I guess I'm saying. AXE COP posted:It'd be great to play a game where the fighter is the active, micromanagement class (because parrying and poo poo is hard!) while the wizard is the boring passive guy. I mean he's just sitting in the back throwing fireballs, why would you need to control every action? Guy just has to mumble some words and wave his hands about and bam, there's some magic! Easy peasy compared to a real class who actually gets involved in the melee. Okay, let's play with this idea a little bit. Let's say we make the wizard the really boring class that you don't have to micromanage at all while giving the fighter all of the active abilities you have to micromanage very carefully for the situation. This narrows down the wizards methods of attacks down to one type, I suppose; a ranged magical attack that deals damage roughly equal to that of a bow. So we don't really need a magic user at all, we can just replace the class with archer and it'd be just as effective. Cool. Now for the fighter, giving him a ton of abilities that were roughly equal to the wizards would mean you'd have to change the way a fighter works a little bit. When surrounded by more than 8 people, he'd have to activate his "blade storm" ability which he can only do X amounts of time per day before resting, which hits everything in a certain range, but enemies can make a saving throw to avoid/reduce damage. Fair enough. Turning invisible isn't really a fighter's style, so we give that to the rogue instead. The rogue can now go invisible X amounts of time per day, even more with more levels and even better (improved) at higher levels. Good stuff. But uh-oh, what is this? Some guys are attacking the archer/mage and he is just running for his life since he can't contribute with arrows anymore, since those would eat up precious time he could spend running. Time for the fighter to bust out his "charging truck" move, burst through all the enemies in a straight line to just run down and over the enemies to save the archer/mage from being killed on the spot. But oh no, now the fighter has left his previous chokepoint and the enemies are flooding in and around the rogue, brutally ending his life. Time to end this fight really quickly! Activate "Spinning Cyclone" ability and you can now move through the crowds of enemies cutting down enemies while he moves, but they are allowed saves to reduce the damage, but the archer/mage can at least attack a few of those that remain. While he couldn't prevent the rogue from getting cut down, the fighter did manage to take down the ones that were surrounding him, giving free space for the paladin (because clerics are op) to run up and revive him. It would just be a matter of relocating all the rules and I find that it'd put nearly all the rules into the melee portion of the game. But maybe that's just me, but if that was the case, I would argue the need for magic to be kinda redundant for a mechanic. They started out as a replacement unit for a catapult, after all.
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Mar 17, 2014 11:57
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LogicNinja posted:"Active abilities = wizard" is really dumb and that kind of mindset is partially responsible for fighter characters so often being boring to play in games both video and tabletop, so... your opinion is bad, I guess I'm saying. Woosh. The point wasn't that fighters should be passive and wizards active, the point was that there should be passive classes and there should be active classes because that's (one of the) ways to differentiate gameplay between classes, and if you don't do that they're all going to end up feeling the same. Now, there's different types of micro, too, so like in a completely hypotethical example of a game, maybe WARRIORMAN class is focused on strategic positioning and static defenses, while MAGICDUDES rely on choosing correct abilities with the right timing, and SNEAKYTHIEVES exploit high mobility to gain short-term tactical advantages with abilities that require very precise positioning. All require micromanagement to perform optimally, but the tempo and style of play is different for each class and that's a good thing. There's a crucial difference between a tabletop RPG and a tactical CRPG with quasi-RTS type combat: you control a party, not a single character, and the game's flow should be designed around that fact. An unit with low-micro requirements may end up feeling boring, but that's a better result than having the entire game feel like boring because every character feels the same and/or there's too much stuff to do, so even resolving a simple combat encounter is a chore.
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Mar 17, 2014 11:58
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this whole argument is moronic since Rope Kid's already said that all classes will support passive and active play styles. Now, does anyone know if there will be stealth/disguises in this game, and if so are there details on its implementation?
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Mar 17, 2014 12:01
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CommissarMega posted:That's stupid- real men call out their attacks like Kenshiro. Seriously Obsidian, Fist of the North Star DLC, you know you want to. Hell yeah everyone knows real men call out their attacks after they've already done them.
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Mar 17, 2014 12:01
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CommissarMega posted:That's stupid- real men call out their attacks like Kenshiro. Seriously Obsidian, Fist of the North Star DLC, you know you want to. But he didn't even call out his attack name there. 
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Mar 17, 2014 12:04
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double nine posted:this whole argument is moronic since Rope Kid's already said that all classes will support passive and active play styles. Yeah, I was gonna scrap my entire post, but when I read through it, I went it sounded funny, so I didn't. I hope someone enjoys reading it. 
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Mar 17, 2014 12:11
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AnonSpore posted:But he didn't even call out his attack name there. ATATATATATATATATATATA will always be the best attack name. None of this stupid 'Twelve Cherry Blossoms Fall into the Imperial Garden, A Blade as Dark as Moon. Secret Technique: Sakura Cut'.
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Mar 17, 2014 12:22
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CottonWolf posted:ATATATATATATATATATATA will always be the best attack name. None of this stupid 'Twelve Cherry Blossoms Fall into the Imperial Garden, A Blade as Dark as Moon. Secret Technique: Sakura Cut'. Actually Kenshiro's techniques invariably have really kickin' rad names like NORTH STAR FIVE FINGER VIOLENT BULLETS or NORTH STAR EIGHT AGONIES NINE BREAKS. No room for cherry blossoms in the wartorn nuclear wasteland of 20XX. 
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Mar 17, 2014 12:25
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Mordaedil posted:I hope someone enjoys reading it. For what's worth, I did. It was an interesting thought experiment if nothing else.
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Mar 17, 2014 12:27
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AnonSpore posted:But he didn't even call out his attack name there. It's called ATATATATATATATATATA. All his attacks are ATATATATATATATATATA, with some WATA thrown in at the end. Thus should it be for everyone. Yes, even mages. I want to throw fireballs like Kenshiro. AnonSpore posted:Actually Kenshiro's techniques invariably have really kickin' rad names like NORTH STAR FIVE FINGER VIOLENT BULLETS or NORTH STAR EIGHT AGONIES NINE BREAKS. No room for cherry blossoms in the wartorn nuclear wasteland of 20XX. Yeah, but he only names them once he's done punching dudes, when everyone has the leisure time (if you're a bad dude, this is about 10 seconds) to hear his explanations.
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Mar 17, 2014 12:30
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A Steampunk Gent posted:This is how I played Baldur's Gate and it's how I intend to play PoE. Ropekid's said all classes are going to be able to tilt towards passive or active playstyles so you'll be able to play the game as you want and I'll be able to play the game as I want, where's the harm in that? Finite development resources for animations and sounds. Mordaedil posted:Ah yes, the quantifiable "fun stuff". That is the way to make a game. Just put more "fun" into it. You know what I mean. At a certain point you need to ask why a completely passive character isn't just a set of buffs other characters can take with an overall smaller party. I'm not saying everything needs to have pro StarCraft APM. But having to pay attention to something goes a long wag to making it feel like it has a point in being there. I wouldn't be arguing so much if this games inspiration wasn't set up in one of the worst ways to still be fun.
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Mar 17, 2014 12:38
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zedprime posted:Finite development resources for animations and sounds. Because I like having a low-maintence DPS who hits dudes really hard!? Ropekid's repeated stated one of the design goals is to accommodate a diverse number number of playstyles and budgeted development accordingly, I have no idea why you're so hung up on people wanting to play a game differently to you, that choice is a good thing!
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Mar 17, 2014 12:49
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AnonSpore posted:Actually Kenshiro's techniques invariably have really kickin' rad names like NORTH STAR FIVE FINGER VIOLENT BULLETS or NORTH STAR EIGHT AGONIES NINE BREAKS. No room for cherry blossoms in the wartorn nuclear wasteland of 20XX. North Star Two Bears High Fiving
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Mar 17, 2014 12:58
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Having finished Shadowrun Returns: Dragonfall the thing I liked most was that I could be a powerful pure mage who didn't need a weapon and who wasn't a total glass cannon. I'd never get far in Baldur's Gate as a pure mage because the 2e rules blow. Since I can't remember everything about the last 70 updates I was wondering what is the low-down on character creation and leveling up? All I know that there is no multi/dual classing and that skills are divided into two pools.
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Mar 17, 2014 13:48
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double nine posted:this whole argument is moronic since Rope Kid's already said that all classes will support passive and active play styles. The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Games > Pillars of Eternity: this whole argument is moronic since Rope Kid's already said
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Mar 17, 2014 13:50
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A Steampunk Gent posted:Because I like having a low-maintence DPS who hits dudes really hard!? Ropekid's repeated stated one of the design goals is to accommodate a diverse number number of playstyles and budgeted development accordingly, I have no idea why you're so hung up on people wanting to play a game differently to you, that choice is a good thing! I don't know how to say this without being overly harsh on Obsidian since I generally enjoy even their flawed stuff. But their thing has been really ambitious design that generally misses schedule and needs pared down to meet the suits' drop dead date. Kick starter means no suits, but they still have a finite pile of cash to draw from. If I remember correctly the latest comments out of playtesters is its still too fast tempoed. Beyond specific scenario testing there's also the longer term issue of making sure the player has enough feedback to understand if he needs more or less active abilities. Its fantastic they are aiming for varied active and passive builds but that's a very complicated system to prevent players from falling in a trap where their party needs too many actions to multitask, or is ungodly powerful homing missiles you don't need to touch.
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Mar 17, 2014 13:54
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Active abilities aren't the only tactical choice in a game like this stuff like placement, equipped weapon, who you focus your attacks on, etc. Are all really important and are basically the foundation of games like this and can potentially be more interesting than playing whack-a-mole with a fighters cooldowns.
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Mar 17, 2014 22:19
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Clever Spambot posted:A million times this. This is true, but the problem is the 'set up and forget about it' class is always the front line tank. How about my wizard does his thing automatically (Sleep a crowd, channel a spell for a few turns, power up a spell, etc..) while my fighter wrecks the frontline and punishes idiots trying to sneak past to interrupt my wizard or try to outmaneuver my rogue? Why does the front line fighter always have to be the boring one? The real goal is every class should need some micro, and every class should do its job automatically. Some of the time. It's ok if my cleric throws on a melee buff that heals when they hit a mob and let him autoattack for a while. It's ok to spend a turn or two positioning, flanking, sneaking and tricking enemies so he can wail on something for a few turns without my input. It's ok if some of the time, I have to manually control my fighter as he charges through a line of bad guys, hammers the mage to the floor, and punches his lights out.
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Mar 17, 2014 23:10
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Mordaedil posted:Did a wizard piss in your eyes or something? Have you studied the play symmetry and thought about the why and reasons why the classes were designed the way they were or do you just prefer contrarian playstyles to the norm, just in order to upset the balance of what the mage does and what the fighter does most of the time? quote:Okay, let's play with this idea a little bit. Let's say we make the wizard the really boring class that you don't have to micromanage at all while giving the fighter all of the active abilities you have to micromanage very carefully for the situation. This narrows down the wizards methods of attacks down to one type, I suppose; a ranged magical attack that deals damage roughly equal to that of a bow. So we don't really need a magic user at all, we can just replace the class with archer and it'd be just as effective. Cool. There are a ton of ways to do passive wizards. The D&D 3E Warlock is basically that in a lot of ways--you have a Magic Blast and then you add stuff onto it that shapes it, like it reaches farther or it jumps between enemies or it's a cone, and that enhances it, like it scares people or sets them on fire or pushes them back or drains them or whatever. Or if you don't want a magic ranged damage guy, you could make a Gandalf-esque wizard that's all about giving people bonuses, he calls down magical light and his friends get bonuses while his enemies get penalties (you know, like bard song), and he can focus it on one guy to slow him (so he's "tanking" in a way) or damage him or something. e: Like in the big battle in Tigana where the two wizards on opposite sides are basically just facing off will against will, trying to sap the strength of the opposing army and boost the strength of their own. quote:It would just be a matter of relocating all the rules and I find that it'd put nearly all the rules into the melee portion of the game. But maybe that's just me, but if that was the case, I would argue the need for magic to be kinda redundant for a mechanic. They started out as a replacement unit for a catapult, after all. Well, if you give wizards all the cool stuff, why even have fighters? Why not just have another wizard who summons a golem or a monster or something to do the boring "stand in front of dudes and get hit" stuff? I don't think we're in any danger of getting a "wizards get all the cool stuff, melee dudes get to autoattack a lot" in PoE, which I'm really happy for, but I really don't like the "melee guy has to be the boring guy who autoattacks or it's a SWORD WIZARD, also if there's anything flashy he's a SWORD WIZARD" mentality. LogicNinja fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Mar 17, 2014 |
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Mar 17, 2014 23:24
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Having played Age of Wushu and watched a bunch of Wuxia movies, I personally think sword wizards are awesome 
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Mar 17, 2014 23:50
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Tarezax posted:Having played Age of Wushu and watched a bunch of Wuxia movies, I personally think sword wizards are awesome I mean, sword wizards can totally be awesome, but I think sword non-wizards should be awesome too. I do regret never getting a chance to really play Weapons of the Gods/Legends of the Wulin.
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Mar 17, 2014 23:53
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Given there's no Obsidian megathread, I'll post it here, but Chris Avellone confirmed on Twitter they're revealing their secret project at GDC.
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Mar 18, 2014 09:02
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Real soon, then?
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Mar 18, 2014 09:09
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LogicNinja posted:I don't think we're in any danger of getting a "wizards get all the cool stuff, melee dudes get to autoattack a lot" in PoE, which I'm really happy for, but I really don't like the "melee guy has to be the boring guy who autoattacks or it's a SWORD WIZARD, also if there's anything flashy he's a SWORD WIZARD" mentality. I think I get your point with the warlock and all, but didn't 3rd edition(at least as far as 3.5 is concerned) try to address this via feats? I mean, some feats were just passive bonuses, certainly, but they did try to give the fighter options in combat with tripping, bull rushing, (oh god, grappling) and such, even if they weren't perfect or very good options (except trip. Tripping enemies is something you should always be doing) But then they also added special attacks like whirlwind attack, power attack and expertise, which allowed you to customize your combat experience. Heck, I kinda liked what they did with fighters in fourth edition and I wouldn't have minded seeing more of that, I just thought 4th edition could have tried to maintained more variety between classes (and maintained the ability to multiclass, but they could have made it more beneficial to multiclass as well)
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Mar 18, 2014 09:13
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Kurtofan posted:Real soon, then? Probably, yeah. He's part of a panel today, for what it's worth, but we don't know the exact timeframe of the announcement. Considering they delayed the PoE update and that it now coincides with GDC, though, I'd expect it to be today yeah (well, it's the 18th here, at least).
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Mar 18, 2014 09:31
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Fair Bear Maiden posted:Given there's no Obsidian megathread, I'll post it here, but Chris Avellone confirmed on Twitter they're revealing their secret project at GDC. Oh my goooooood this is going to be the most exciting thing ever!  I'm personally hoping for something sci-fi based, but really, anything would be great. Or maybe we can hope Sega's given them the go-ahead on an Alpha Protocol 2 or something.
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Mar 18, 2014 09:36
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double nine posted:this whole argument is moronic since Rope Kid's already said that all classes will support passive and active play styles. 6man passive party aka Fantasy Manager:2014
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Mar 18, 2014 09:47
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User0015 posted:This is true, but the problem is the 'set up and forget about it' class is always the front line tank. How about my wizard does his thing automatically (Sleep a crowd, channel a spell for a few turns, power up a spell, etc..) while my fighter wrecks the frontline and punishes idiots trying to sneak past to interrupt my wizard or try to outmaneuver my rogue? Why does the front line fighter always have to be the boring one? You could kind of do this in DAO - I setup Morrigan to always cast Sleep if there was more than 4 enemies, then Awaking Nightmare (can't be resisted by a Sleeping enemy), then Confusion. But in this very thread a few dozen pages back a lot of people argued that micro-management is the fun for them, and making what is basically bots isn't fun. While I like scripting bots, I understand that their point of view is valid. I hope PE can accommodate both play-styles but that must be a bitch to balance. I think it'll come down to difficulty: on higher difficulties you'll probably HAVE to micro-manage because you can get killed in 5 seconds.
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Mar 18, 2014 09:53
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Mordaedil posted:I think I get your point with the warlock and all, but didn't 3rd edition(at least as far as 3.5 is concerned) try to address this via feats? I mean, some feats were just passive bonuses, certainly, but they did try to give the fighter options in combat with tripping, bull rushing, (oh god, grappling) and such, even if they weren't perfect or very good options (except trip. Tripping enemies is something you should always be doing) quote:Heck, I kinda liked what they did with fighters in fourth edition and I wouldn't have minded seeing more of that, I just thought 4th edition could have tried to maintained more variety between classes (and maintained the ability to multiclass, but they could have made it more beneficial to multiclass as well) Most people who didn't follow it don't realize how broad and weird 4E got by the end. Even aside from mechanics, a level 1 party could be Frodo, Legolas, Gimli, and Gandalf... or they could be Wooden Robot That Shoots Bees At You, Triple-Undead Double Vampire, and Tiny Flying Pixie Barbarian. By paragon tier you might be a psychic wizard who has a cat familiar and a tulpa style Dream Form and you can send your cat and dream-form on adventures on their own. By epic tier, you can be a Fey Pact Eladrin (Fey Elf) Fey Warlock Feyliege whose pact is with/power source is his future self, or a thief who steals eye color and memories and poo poo, or Dread Pirate Roberts Spartacus (when you die, your underling takes over as you). LogicNinja fucked around with this message at 10:46 on Mar 18, 2014 |
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Mar 18, 2014 10:36
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My favourite epic destiny was always Dark Wanderer, aka "magic hobo". Whenever anyone else died, they teleported back or turned into golden mist or had a future self step out to fight for them or something. In your case you just woke up and trudge your way out of death and back to where you used to be. You also had the rad power of 'walk anywhere in the world within 24 hours.'
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Mar 18, 2014 10:46
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