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Donkey posted:My only problem with this book is that Sanderson planted the seeds of a love triangle, and now every time I go looking for plot theories in the next few years I'm going to have to wade through pages and pages of "Team Shaladin" or "Team Kadolin" or whatever. Jasnah is going to go full cougar on Kaladin Khizan posted:I still can't see "I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right" as the Third Ideal. "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves" as the Second, and another "I will protect" as the Third Ideal? Bleh. Unless we've got Word of Author that it's the Third Ideal, I remain convinced that it's a restating of the Second Ideal and, essentially, just a retaking of the oath he broke when he agreed to let them kill the King. Each new oath has a corresponding increase in abilities. If he were simply restating the second ideal, he wouldn't have been given the shardblade. It also makes sense that each subsequent oath would expand on the previous ones. TheMadMilkman fucked around with this message at 06:22 on Mar 16, 2014 |
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Mar 16, 2014 06:09
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Anyway his 3rd oath is completely different from "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves". He is saying it doesn't matter who the person is, I will protect them regardless if it is the right thing to do. Totally different oath than the 2nd!
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Mar 16, 2014 07:43
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MildShow posted:The first set of annotations for Alloy of Law went up earlier today. They cover chapters 2-10, but not 1 or the prologue, for some reason. One thing I picked out from this: quote:At this point, he’s working hard to discover what’s going on with the other Shards and to keep another disaster from coming Scadrial’s way. quote:[Harmony] sees his primary role being to encourage people to be better, to keep an eye on the other Shards, and to make sure the world keeps working as it should. It looks like Harmony is looking outwards to see whats going on with the other shards. That could well mean that he has agents on Roshar, although I don't think Sanderson has said how much time has passed since the events of Mistborn/Hero of Ages and the Way of Kings. It could be millenia for all we know, since one form or another of immortality is not uncommon in the Cosmere. If Way of Kings is right after mistborn Harmony might too be busy rebuilding Scadrial to bother with what Odium is up to.
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Mar 16, 2014 07:49
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treeboy posted:Yeah really not getting the people who are grumpy about the (near end of book)third oath. I feel the book does an excellent job of demonstrating a perfect example of a situation where such an oath would be important. Elhokar is a king, has his own shardblade, but is completely helpless in the situation and kaladin doesn't really care for him at all. The oath is very fitting for the "honor bound" Windrunners who can't simply get by with what's practical or logical they have to do what's *right* that means protecting the helpless,innocent, and jerks If Elhokar was defenseless, the second ideal should have applied, regardless of how he feels about him. The oath he ends up speaking actually doesn't have anything to do with ability to defend oneself. What makes it strange is specifically that it applies to people he hates, and only if it's right. Soo... what about people he doesn't hate? Isn't it a little odd that he spoke oaths that explicitly denote that he would protect people he hates on a wider spectrum (by eschewing reliance on their ability to defend themselves) than people he doesn't .
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Mar 16, 2014 09:24
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Lobsterpillar posted:One thing I picked out from this: We really only have an extremely loose timeline.. and I can't even find it again, I just know that he mentioned the rough order of some book, so Way of Kings could be shortly after, years after, decades after, or centuries after. Worldhoppers probably have a multitude of ways of obtaining immortality or at least slowing aging, so seeing cameos doesn't necessarily mean that they happened shortly after one another.
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Mar 16, 2014 09:28
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Habibi posted:If Elhokar was defenseless, the second ideal should have applied, regardless of how he feels about him. The oath he ends up speaking actually doesn't have anything to do with ability to defend oneself. What makes it strange is specifically that it applies to people he hates, and only if it's right. Soo... what about people he doesn't hate? Isn't it a little odd that he spoke oaths that explicitly denote that he would protect people he hates on a wider spectrum (by eschewing reliance on their ability to defend themselves) than people he doesn't . Windrunners still have to choose the causes for which they'll fight. Like the conversation he has with Syl about Parshendi; he fights them instead of protecting, because he wants to protect his allies instead. You could spin killing Elhokar as protecting the people, but he knows that for him it would be a choice made purely because of his personal feelings towards Elhokar. The third ideal is to 'journey before destination' as the second is to 'strength before weakness'.
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Mar 16, 2014 10:01
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Wolpertinger posted:We really only have an extremely loose timeline.. and I can't even find it again, I just know that he mentioned the rough order of some book, so Way of Kings could be shortly after, years after, decades after, or centuries after. Worldhoppers probably have a multitude of ways of obtaining immortality or at least slowing aging, so seeing cameos doesn't necessarily mean that they happened shortly after one another. Brandon has talked about that a little. First example I could find: http://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy_Bookclub/comments/oji9u/the_alloy_of_law_qa_with_brandon_sanderson/ quote:How long before WoK is Alloy of Law? I heard somewhere that it's a hundred years, but I don't think that's right. quote:3) I intended them to be happening roughly close to one another, with WOK slightly before.
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Mar 16, 2014 11:08
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Habibi posted:If Elhokar was defenseless, the second ideal should have applied, regardless of how he feels about him. The oath he ends up speaking actually doesn't have anything to do with ability to defend oneself. What makes it strange is specifically that it applies to people he hates, and only if it's right. Soo... what about people he doesn't hate? Isn't it a little odd that he spoke oaths that explicitly denote that he would protect people he hates on a wider spectrum (by eschewing reliance on their ability to defend themselves) than people he doesn't . What's really killing me now is that we'll need to wait for Book 3 to find out for sure. Not to mention all the other details we don't know about yet. Like, what's a Dawnshard? Is Cultivation still alive, and if so, is she the Nightwatcher, or is the Nightwatcher Cultivation's equivalent of the Stormfather, just a really powerful spren? What's happening to all the Parshendi that escaped? What's up with the spren that Shallan saw around Skyeels and Chasmfiends? What's that thing Rysn was given? What is that Aimian dude whose name I cannot remember up to now? So many things I want to know the answer to, but it's all going to have to wait. Oh well. At least I have Firefight to look forward to between now and then.
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Mar 16, 2014 13:01
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I literally cannot believe none of you have mentioned the best conversation in the book. "What if you have to poop?
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Mar 16, 2014 13:33
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"all on purpose" suuuure, Adolin
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Mar 16, 2014 14:13
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mossyfisk posted:Windrunners still have to choose the causes for which they'll fight. Like the conversation he has with Syl about Parshendi; he fights them instead of protecting, because he wants to protect his allies instead. You could spin killing Elhokar as protecting the people, but he knows that for him it would be a choice made purely because of his personal feelings towards Elhokar. The third ideal is to 'journey before destination' as the second is to 'strength before weakness'. I really don't think this actually addresses the point I'm making. SilverWingedSeraph posted:The whole point of it was that if someone needs his protection, and protecting them is the right thing to do, then he will protect them even if he hates them. It adds a further restriction to the Second Ideal, or rather clarifies that hating someone is not reason enough to avoid doing the right thing. I feel it stands pretty well as the Third Ideal. It makes sense to me that the Third Ideal would expand upon the Second and clarify it. Well, the thing is, if someone actually 'needs his protection,' as you say, then him protecting them should fall under the second ideal, which covers people you may hate or not. So in swearing that second oath, he has already sworn to protect people he hates if 'they need his protection' (ie: they can't protect themselves). Again, making this latest oath seem redundant and more of a restatement than anything new or anything clarifying. It's not unlike saying 'I will pick all of the apples,' and then following it up with, 'I will pick all of the green apples, as long as they are ripe.' The second statement is logically encompassed already by the first. So I'm going to stick with 'if that was the third ideal, and not a restatement of the second, then it's a pretty dumb way to do it,' because it doesn't introduce anything new - it just clarifies for Kaladin that the oath he previously took actually requires of him. Habibi fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Mar 16, 2014 |
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Mar 16, 2014 15:34
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Habibi posted:Words Are we done with spoiler tags now? Your analogy falls apart because it should be I will pick apples and I will even pick apples if I don't even want to eat them. It's basically a way of explicitly saying rules lawyers don't get to be Knights Radiant. Or at least Windrunners.
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Mar 16, 2014 16:25
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Habibi posted:
I disagree with your perspective. The Second Ideal is "Protect those who cannot protect themselves." It has no provisos other than 'those who cannot protect themselves', and obviously it is rather subjective because, for example, any normal warrior would be utterly incapable of properly defending themselves against Kaladin himself. Relatively speaking, the Parshendi warriors attacking Dalinar and Adolin were about as incapable of protecting themselves from those two as Dalinar's army was in protecting themselves from the Parshendi. Kaladin still didn't feel any particular compulsion to protect the Parshendi from the Shardbearers. His Oaths are about protecting people and doing what is right, which is very subjective. He even has this conversation with Syl himself. He believes that his fighting the Parshendi to save Dalinar and his army was the right thing to do, but has trouble reconciling that with the fact that, if the Parshendi had a Windrunner of their own, he too would have felt he was doing the right thing in fighting off and killing Dalinar's army. So no, the Second Ideal does not require Kaladin to protect anyone who needs protecting, and further, the Third Ideal does not have the 'cannot protect themselves' stipulation. It's "I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right." And that's a big thing. It's an added restriction beyond simply protecting the weak and helpless who he feels deserve his protection. I can see it being an important, conflicting moment later if someone threatens Amaran's life in such a way that Kaladin realises that simply letting him die would not be the right thing to do. Even if Amaran can protect himself, the Third Ideal would still require Kaladin to protect him in that situation. The Second Ideal alone would allow Kaladin to stand aside and watch with a smug grin on his face. e;fb basically yeah, what senae said Kruller posted:I literally cannot believe none of you have mentioned the best conversation in the book. mod edit -- went ahead and added spoiler tags to the quoted text just to be on the safe side. Somebody fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Mar 16, 2014 |
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Mar 16, 2014 17:00
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We need a Venn diagram.
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Mar 16, 2014 17:01
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Yeah, that's how I read it too - 'those who cannot defend themselves' = the weak/innocent, 'even those who I hate, if it is right' = those who may not be innocent or good, but to let them get hurt/die would still be unjust. So the second would have you save say.. a criminal from being murdered - even if the criminal is a terrible person, murder is wrong, therefore he has to protect him.
Wolpertinger fucked around with this message at 05:13 on Mar 17, 2014 |
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Mar 16, 2014 17:19
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Finally finished it. Enjoyed it well enough, but I really do not enjoy Sanderson dialog at all. I don't feel like he really gets people and how people interact. Also the anime music video stormlight kanji showing up every time Kaladin landed was a bit over the top. I can't wait for the second set of five because I hope they're all just about Lift and her awesomeness.
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Mar 16, 2014 17:26
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Atlas Hugged posted:I can't wait for the second set of five because I hope they're all just about Lift and her awesomeness. You are literally the worst person in every way for this opinion. Just FYI.
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Mar 16, 2014 19:22
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No Lift was the best because she acts exactly how a kid with superpowers would act.
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Mar 16, 2014 19:28
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senae posted:Are we done with spoiler tags now? I haven't read this series so I can't figure out what should be in spoiler tags and what shouldn't, so yeah, everyone please make sure they're putting spoiler tags around anything from a book that's been published in the past six months,as per the rules thread ("If you *are* in a discussion thread for a specific author, book, or series, use spoiler tags for anything that's been out less than about six months to a year. ") This includes quoting blocks of text from other people who didn't use spoiler tags when they should've. If you've accidentally posted something without spoiler tags that should've had them, please go back and fix it. Otherwise I'll have to spend all kinds of time reading this thread to figure out what is a spoiler and what isn't so I can properly enforce the rules, and that will make me grumpy. Thanks!
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Mar 16, 2014 19:57
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senae posted:Are we done with spoiler tags now? I actually thought I had put spoiler tags in. My bad. Added now. I don't see how my analogy falls apart when the analogy you suggest in its stead makes the exact same argument. The second part is implicit in the first part. At best it's a clarification, which seems (to me) like an odd/unnecessary choice for a separate oath.
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Mar 16, 2014 19:57
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Atlas Hugged posted:Enjoyed it well enough, but I really do not enjoy Sanderson dialog at all. I don't feel like he really gets people and how people interact. Sanderson is not great at dialog for the same reason he is pretty good at fights - it's all god drat anime. It hit me a while ago when rereading Towers (or whichever the penultimate one was) in prep for AMoL. Rand is like the animeist character ever when Sanderson is writing him.
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Mar 16, 2014 20:00
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Habibi posted:Sanderson is not great at dialog for the same reason he is pretty good at fights - it's all god drat anime. It hit me a while ago when rereading Towers (or whichever the penultimate one was) in prep for AMoL. Rand is like the animeist character ever when Sanderson is writing him. Which is part of why he was such a good choice for WoT -- WoT is basically a western anime, right down to ten year's worth of plot dilation and three love interests for the main character conveniently color-coded by their hair.
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Mar 16, 2014 20:04
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Which is part of why he was such a good choice for WoT -- WoT is basically a western anime, right down to ten year's worth of plot dilation and three love interests for the main character conveniently color-coded by their hair. I always figured that last part was just because Rand was a big dumb idiot and needed something to tell them all apart.
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Mar 17, 2014 00:10
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Finally could get back to the thread! Shallan is greatly redeemed in my eyes, even though I apparently liked her more than most here. (Her jokes are still terrible and insufferable... thanks thread for making me aware of it.) Sanderson also did a good job making Kaladin insufferable again in a different way. I told my friend that Words of Radiance is definitely a better book than Way of Kings: better pacing, better characterization, less rulebooking. However, I'm not sure it's a more entertaining book for me, I need to reread it to catch all the stuff I missed. I know WoK was even better on the reread, so I'll have to see that comparison to make sure it's on an even footing.
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Mar 17, 2014 01:28
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nucleicmaxid posted:You are literally the worst person in every way for this opinion. Just FYI. Ethiser posted:No Lift was the best because she acts exactly how a kid with superpowers would act. Habibi posted:Sanderson is not great at dialog for the same reason he is pretty good at fights - it's all god drat anime. It hit me a while ago when rereading Towers (or whichever the penultimate one was) in prep for AMoL. Rand is like the animeist character ever when Sanderson is writing him. And this is the reason Lift works for me. Yes, the dialog in her section is no better than anywhere else, but the context of it being a kid with superpowers and a very loose understanding of the world around her made it feel right to me. Kaladin's constant whining and Shallan's dreadful banter just make me roll my eyes. I guess I'm cool with Taravangian getting more screen time too.
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Mar 17, 2014 01:30
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By the way, not sure if this thread is the best place for this, but I remember someone here recommending Promises of Blood as a book that was kinda Sandersonian. I finished it a few days ago, and while I liked it, I did have a few issues with it. I'll leave the most spoilerish stuff under the tag just to make sure, but I think the big thing is that it does the opposite of the "Sanderson Avalanche." I did like the magic system though, so there's that. (Spoilers for Promises of Blood) (Not really spoilers, more about the book structure and what it does-doesn't do, but just to be safe...) (Again, just in case someone hovers over this by accident, spoilers for promises of blood) Mostly, it felt too...trilogy-y. There was very little resolution in the main plot, and I don't feel like any of the characters evolved at all. They kind of remained the same person throughout the book and never really learned or changed at all. There was a nice setup for book 2, but while I was expecting some questions to be unanswered by the end of book 1, basically none of the questions I had were answered. Ka-poel and Taniel's backstory was barely elaborated on, Vlora's situation basically went nowhere and she barely even had lines in the book, Bo's deal didn't go anywhere, we never see the consequences of Adamat's decisions...it's just a lot of "Buy book 2!" I did enjoy the book, but personally I wasn't a fan of how little book 1 solved. I understand some of it has to be set up for the rest of the series, but ehhhh. Still a good book to read if you are looking for stuff that's sorta similar to Sanderson though. DarkHorse posted:Finally could get back to the thread! Shallan is greatly redeemed in my eyes, even though I apparently liked her more than most here. (Her jokes are still terrible and insufferable... thanks thread for making me aware of it.) Sanderson also did a good job making Kaladin insufferable again in a different way. I think I liked Words of Radiance more in general, but Way of Kings had the better climax. WoK felt very to the point and it made all the waiting feel like it mattered. The flashback sections, the real-time narrative and multiple character povs all collided in the exact same point and it worked beautifully. It was simple, to the point, and just really fun to read. WoR was generally more fun to read because it didn't delay the action scenes like WoK did, but at the same time that made it so that its climax wasn't as rewarding. Another thing is that WoR's flashback scenes don't lead up to the big, big action climax in the book. I mean they go somewhere, sure, but in the end the climax is Kaladin's fight with Szeth and that had nothing to do with Shallan's flashbacks. I guess what I'm trying to say is that while WoR had better scenes, WoK felt more...connected? I don't know, I might be rambling. I should probably re-read the book before I say anything. Hopeford fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Mar 17, 2014 |
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Mar 17, 2014 02:21
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Hopeford posted:By the way, not sure if this thread is the best place for this, but I remember someone here recommending Promises of Blood as a book that was kinda Sandersonian. I finished it a few days ago, and while I liked it, I did have a few issues with it. I'll leave the most spoilerish stuff under the tag just to make sure, but I think the big thing is that it does the opposite of the "Sanderson Avalanche." I did like the magic system though, so there's that. This. And: the combination of Vlora being ignored and Ka-poel's muteness meant that the book failed the Bechdel test pretty hard. It was pretty disappointing when compared with the much more progressive epic fantasy we've been getting from many authors recently. But, like you, I still enjoyed it, particularly for the magic, and for Mihali. I think I'll be picking up the sequel, but maybe not til the ebook is on sale.
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Mar 17, 2014 02:34
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Hopeford posted:
 ) less intense.It's an interesting trade, I guess.
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Mar 17, 2014 02:54
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DarkHorse posted:I'd agree, I definitely remember the Sanderson Avalanche being stronger and more intense in WoK than in WoR, which is a reflection of his better pacing but conversely makes the climax ( Yeah, I almost miss the Dragon Ball Z, Freiza era pay offs.
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Mar 17, 2014 03:11
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Honestly it's not a plus or a minus for me - both ways are pretty good. This way you get lots of mini-climaxes instead of only one big one, and in the end the same amount of stuff happened, so.. yeah.
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Mar 17, 2014 05:16
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The Book Barn > Brandon Sanderson: Now with multiple climaxes!
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Mar 17, 2014 07:38
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In all honesty I'd say this is his best book to date. Emperor's soul was more consistent in its quality but that's because it's 1/100th the size. This book feels much more direct but I think that's a result of having the three main POV characters (Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar) and most of the secondary and tertiary POV chapters in one Geographic location. I did *really* enjoy chapters that would switch POV within the situation. An excellent example is (mid late book) Shallan and Kaladin trapped in the Chasm together. Swapping between their views from chapter to chapter with almost no "delay" in time between the chapters is really quite fun. I'm not 100% positive either, but I think WoR takes place over a much smaller amount of time than WoK? I got the sense that the first book was closer to a year, while WoR takes place over 2-4 months. As far as pacing and mini-climaxes, this book is well crafted in my opinion. Usually I can't plow through Sanderson until I hit the avalanche. With WoR I was hooked from about 1/3 of the way through the book until the end and finished it in an 8hr marathon where I read half the book in a single sitting. His previous works have mostly been too slow for that until the end. Also Shallan's backstory doesn't lead up to an awesome action sequence like Kaladin's did, however it does lead up to some fantastic character growth for her which is fitting for her character (she is after all not an Action Girl). There were no eyeroll moments for me (but then again I didn't really roll my eyes at Shallan in WoK either) and I'm not entirely sure what people mean by "anime" dialogue. All I can picture is Vegeta monologuing when people say this and the book isn't anything like that. The action is very dynamic which I guess could be 'anime' but just in the sense that I really want to see it animated and may just do that in some of my spare time.
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Mar 17, 2014 14:02
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The only anime thing that really bugged me was (not a big one) Kaladin landing with puffs of ice that formed glyphs - it was just so weird to conveniently make those shapes. I'd have preferred something more like what formed the Dawn Cities. Also, any bets on the Parshendi being the Dawnsingers? They don't seem innately evil, just susceptible to voidspren, which from the Thrill we know also affects humans. We also know their singing can influence the world, i.e. the Everstorm, so shaping cities (and then obliterating them like Natan) should be in their purview.
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Mar 17, 2014 16:40
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DarkHorse posted:The only anime thing that really bugged me was (not a big one) Kaladin landing with puffs of ice that formed glyphs - it was just so weird to conveniently make those shapes. I'd have preferred something more like what formed the Dawn Cities. taking all bets that the dawnsingers are just parshendi colored white and blue
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Mar 17, 2014 16:48
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treeboy posted:There were no eyeroll moments for me (but then again I didn't really roll my eyes at Shallan in WoK either) and I'm not entirely sure what people mean by "anime" dialogue. Awkward, overwrought, dramaticized, and completely unlike how people actually talk. DBZ is actually a fair comparison - just not the monologues, but the actual conversation. DarkHorse posted:The only anime thing that really bugged me was (not a big one) Kaladin landing with puffs of ice that formed glyphs - it was just so weird to conveniently make those shapes. Habibi fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Mar 17, 2014 |
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Mar 17, 2014 18:33
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Atlas Hugged posted:And this is the reason Lift works for me. Yes, the dialog in her section is no better than anywhere else, but the context of it being a kid with superpowers and a very loose understanding of the world around her made it feel right to me. Kaladin's constant whining and Shallan's dreadful banter just make me roll my eyes. Yeah, she really reminded me of the first couple of scenes with Vin in Mistborn where she kept using Luck on people. Lift really seemed like a much less broken version of Vin which will be cool when she becomes a main character in the second set of books
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Mar 17, 2014 18:54
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The Glumslinger posted:Yeah, she really reminded me of the first couple of scenes with Vin in Mistborn where she kept using Luck on people. Lift really seemed like a much less broken version of Vin which will be cool when she becomes a main character in the second set of books I don't know, she's definitely less lethal than Vin but her powers set her up to be the ultimate supporting character because of the whole 'ultimate healing power' thing she's got going on.
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Mar 17, 2014 19:05
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The 'ultimate healing power' is just a surge shared by every other potential Edgedancer and also every Truthwatcher (like Renarin). It doesn't necessarily indicate that she will be a supporting character. EDIT: If anything the eating to metabolise stormlight sounds like a big ol' main character unique plot point. Xachariah fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Mar 17, 2014 |
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Mar 17, 2014 19:16
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Habibi posted:Awkward, overwrought, dramaticized, and completely unlike how people actually talk. DBZ is actually a fair comparison - just not the monologues, but the actual conversation. You're kidding right? You're comparing legitimately entertaining books to cartoons where half the cast spends most episodes yelling numbers and screaming until veins pop all across their bodies. In fact if I were to make any critique of the dialogue its that Sanderson made it a little *too* contemporary in its form.
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Mar 17, 2014 20:30
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Contemporary/awkward dialogue can be suspension of disbelief'd away as the people of wherever speaking something that's definitely not English, but the book translates to the nearest best English approximation on the fly. Like the TARDIS in Doctor Who. I mean, it's definitely weirder to believe multiple independent planets in multiple solar systems evolved the same language after all. Just a minor point, I don't think it's too anime-like. Mainly 'cause I've never seen any anime and have nothing to compare to.
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Mar 17, 2014 20:50
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