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SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN

Basebf555 posted:

How exactly are you reading the ending of Return of the Jedi as a failure? I see it as Vader bringing balance to the force by killing the Emperor(and himself), and Luke succeeds in turning away from the dark side because he refused to kill his father. I could understand what you're saying if Luke had executed Vader and the Emperor and just changed the name of the Empire to the Republic, but he turned away from all that, which I saw as a victory.

Most fans interpret the Jedi as Obiwan does: as preserving a balance, kind of vaguely Buddhist protectors of nature and liberal democracy. "You form a symbiont circle. What happens to one of you will affect the other. You must understand this." Multiculturalism, etc. This balance, however, is false. There is always a radical antagonism at the heart of society. To the Jedi, and to fans, balance is a matter of eliminating the 'terrorist' Sith. But this is impossible. The Sith are always in their place.

As noted in earlier posts, bringing true balance to the force means to destroy it. The force itself is Darkness, and it's only when the force is dead that the Light can emerge. The true Light is the Holy Spirit, the community of believers.

So like I said, it's a question of interpretation. If Luke interprets his father's death as simply a rejection of the Sith, a removal of the bad guys, a cleansing and restoration of the world, then he has failed. The Light side can only be understood as a radical imbalance, an excessive love for the excluded - so excessive that it can only be understood as Evil. In other words, it means loving the Sandpeople above all else. It means loving Darth Maul.

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Danger
Jan 4, 2004

all desire - the thirst for oil, war, religious salvation - needs to be understood according to what he calls 'the demonogrammatical decoding of the Earth's body'

Basebf555 posted:

How exactly are you reading the ending of Return of the Jedi as a failure? I see it as Vader bringing balance to the force by killing the Emperor(and himself), and Luke succeeds in turning away from the dark side because he refused to kill his father. I could understand what you're saying if Luke had executed Vader and the Emperor and just changed the name of the Empire to the Republic, but he turned away from all that, which I saw as a victory.

Luke refused to kill his father. The message is in the exploitation and subjugation of minority histories as a process of de- and re-territorialization in the transition to Empire (most obviously read as global capitalism). Where Jedi robes were once signs of power symbolizing a solidarity with subaltern peoples and radical emancipatory struggle, in the transition to Empire they become the monastic garb of the liberal elite, an act of appropriation that subsumes history as a virtual event.

kiimo
Jul 24, 2003

Kart Barfunkel posted:

So...a mess? Has something on this scale ever turned out alright?

It's way way way better to fix a problem in conception than try to polish a turd in editing. If a script sucks then throw it out. I'm sure all of us would rather wait* for something actually good than watch Fat Leia look sketched out for three episodes.


*I'm already assuming the release date will get pushed.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN
Put more simply, Luke must understand Vader as the good guy and pick up where he left off - ruthlessly crushing the false Jedi, and those who'd seek to restore the Republic.

When we see the ghosts of Yoda, Obiwan, Anakin at the end, we must understand that they are happy to be dead. Like - to put it scandalously - the end Act Of Killing in reverse.

Hbomberguy
Jul 4, 2009

[culla=big red]TufFEE did nO THINg W̡RA̸NG[/read]


SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Put more simply, Luke must understand Vader as the good guy and pick up where he left off - ruthlessly crushing the false Jedi, and those who'd seek to restore the Republic.

What do you see in the Republic's place?

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN

Hbomberguy posted:

What do you see in the Republic's place?

Dictatorship of the proletariat, of course!

If you've seen The Dark Knight Rises, Chris Nolan totally restages the end of Return of the Jedi with Batman as Luke, Bane as Vader, and Talia as the emperor. Hopefully that clarifies things.

The conventional reading of Star Wars is that Darth Vader killed Anakin when he became 'more machine than man'. So, when he takes off his mask, he becomes 'human again': Anakin comes back to life and good humanity triumphs over the evil machines. This is accurate except for one thing: we've all seen Anakin, in the Prequels, and he's a piece of poo poo! Darth Vader is an angelic/demonic avatar of Truth and Justice, so devoted to Justice that he would destroy even himself. Anakin, on the other hand, is a genocidal fascist and whiny mommy's boy - a genocidal fascist because he's a momma's boy. When he has to choose between the leprous Sandpeople and his mom, he chooses poorly - with obvious results.

So too with Bane: Bane wears the mask of Truth and Justice. When the mask is removed, we get Anakin again: a 'nice guy' virgin and fascist loser. He's pathetic, and gets swept aside. What must be understood in both films is that Vader and Bane's human failings in no way diminish the Truth that they stood for. The only hope for the Galaxy, and for Gotham, is if their successors carry on where these radically Evil figures left off - instead of going on a ritzy European vacation with the new wife.

SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Mar 19, 2014

Hbomberguy
Jul 4, 2009

[culla=big red]TufFEE did nO THINg W̡RA̸NG[/read]


I really don't know what that means as a real-world political concept, or honestly even in the context of Star Wars. I was going to ask if the dictatorship of the proletariat had ever been put into practice properly in a society before, but instead I googled it:

Joke aside, I get what you're saying but don't understand the end-goal or what that goal even really is, even though I basically support the same observations you've made of the prequels and the Nolan Batmens. Like, Batman clearly doesn't take his own logic far enough - targeting crime bosses but not the system that allows them to begin existing in the first place - but I don't really know what sort of society would replace the current one or how to reliably get there. I'm dubious of communism (if that's what you're advocating) as a social project due to its previous failings and don't really know how to avoid those failings. I currently exist in a state of political freefall though, I have no idea what I support except Better Everything Everywhere which is too vague to properly mobilise as a worldview. It's a cool-sounding idea, though.

Hbomberguy fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Mar 19, 2014

Vermain
Sep 5, 2006



Hbomberguy posted:

Joke aside, I get what you're saying but don't understand the end-goal or what that goal even really is, even though I basically support the same observations you've made of the prequels and the Nolan Batmens.

The essential goal of the "communist idea" is the creation of an economically egalitarian society. The "ideal" is a society free of overt economic coercion and inequality of the sort seen in modern capitalism, where vast swathes of the world population struggle to merely achieve the essentials of life, and where men and women in even relatively industrialized countries are given the stark choice of either selling their labor power or living in misery. The hope is that radical economic justice goes hand-in-hand with radical social justice; you have few reasons to hate immigrants if you're not constantly on the knife's edge of losing all gainful employment to them.

The reason why you often see SMG and others harping on the whole dictatorship of the proletariat/excessive love thing is that it's key to preventing the society from regressing backwards. The promotion of radical, Christ-like love is meant to stymy the creation of new groups of the oppressed that would lead society back into either capitalist relations of production or, worse, the direct master-and-servant relations of the Soviet Union. The cyclical failing of the Star Wars universe is that Luke ultimately seeks to resurrect the very social order that led to the creation of the Empire, rather than attempting to forge a new set of economic and social relations. The fact that Lucas ultimately chose to make prequels instead of sequels, and that they're highly cynical with regards to the capitalism and liberal democracy of the Republic, says volumes. They're as much a commentary on the shift in world politics since the release of A New Hope as they are a response to the politics of the original films.

Politically, there are many ideas for what an actual, egalitarian society would look like, though they often lack the magic of the old communist days, where the dialectical force of history was supposed to simply sweep capitalism into the dustbin. I think many leftists today are more realistic in terms of their demands (e.g., universal health care instead of full communism immediately), but it still remains important to hold onto that radical vision and to try and reify it as much as one can.

Vermain fucked around with this message at 05:40 on Mar 19, 2014

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN
To expand on Vermain's excellent post: Of course communism. Why not communism. What did you think those rebels were dying for? The prequels?

No, the prequels can only be understood as the gravest betrayal of the people by their leaders. And which character has the will to crush any and all that betray the force?

Darth Vader - and I'm not talking Anakin here - Darth Vader is so ruthless in his commitment to his ethical ideal that he'll choke to death those on 'his side'. He'll kill the Emperor - even himself. This should not be understood as some cliche, like 'he's just so drat crazy'; Darth Vader is rightfully disgusted by the Imperial officers' human arrogance and pride, their petty motivations. "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." He's radically Evil, capital-E Evil. The imperials are just a bunch of punks.

Anakin was an Imperial, but Darth Vader is clearly beyond the Empire. His extreme devotion to the Dark Side is such that he brought it to its culmination, allowing the Light side to finally emerge. So I'm talking the same ruthless devotion - but to the Light, to the people.

This means not cleansing the galaxy of machines, but a radical appropriation of the Imperial state apparatus - putting it in the service of the proletariat. I'm talking the robot police from Elysium, an army of droids devoted to the slaves and lepers, the lowest of the low now calling the shots with a heavenly host at their backs. That's the victory, if Luke does the right thing.

Freakazoid_
Jul 5, 2013


Buglord

Kart Barfunkel posted:

So...a mess? Has something on this scale ever turned out alright?

If you mean turned out alright for the studio: Jurassic Park 3.

dirtgolem
Dec 22, 2011

Wounds are always fresh and so the scabs are never dry
Gutter is the place in which we choose to live our lives
Square inside a circle is the symbol in my eye
Home is where the gutter is and this is where I'll die
I guess Disney marketing team has tried to be clever with the title and might have missed that they turned the Star Wars logo in to someone bending over. No pretense heh.

Maarak
May 23, 2007

"Go for it!"
Except here, unlike Elysium(d.p. Trent Opaloch), the robots aren't symbols of the state apparatus but sentient beings stuck in a galaxy spanning system of slavery. Luke and co. have first hand experience with droids that demonstrate personhood, but their worldview remains stuck. Chewie might be the exception.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN

Maarak posted:

Except here, unlike Elysium(d.p. Trent Opaloch), the robots aren't symbols of the state apparatus but sentient beings stuck in a galaxy spanning system of slavery. Luke and co. have first hand experience with droids that demonstrate personhood, but their worldview remains stuck. Chewie might be the exception.

Not exactly; the droids are people - but in the way that Elysium's robocops are also people. C-3PO is a person who genuinely loves to help others - is literally built to help others. If anything, he is held back from achieving his full potential as a public servant by his various corrupt owners. Freedom for him and the other droids means freedom to serve those in need, and consequently to find satisfaction in their work. It's not a selfish freedom.

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

Anakin assembled C-3PO to help his mother because he himself could not. Threepio is everything Anakin aspires to be, in fact. The droid helps Shmi and spends all day hanging out with Padme, sure, but it goes deeper. Threepio is an interpreter, fluent in over six million forms of communication: he specializes in making others understand (even things he himself does not). Owen Lars immediately understands he's valuable for that reason, and freaky-rear end cannibal rodent men whose idea of technology is tying a stick to another stick immediately consider him to be an object of worship in a way that the equally sophisticated machines of the Empire are not. And he gets those complete aliens to fight and die for his cause by doing nothing more than telling his story. Anakin, of course, is chronically misunderstood, whether by his best friend who chops off his arms and legs and calls him lost or by his Imperial underlings whom he punishes fatally for assuming he wants them to be an overwhelming show of Imperial force. Anakin longs for peace and justice* in the galaxy, but as a Jedi Knight he can only imagine imposing it by superior force, while C-3PO makes peace through diplomacy on several occasions, and is instrumental in the punishment of scum like Jabba the Hutt. Both of them spend their whole lives as slaves; is this because Anakin cannot conceive of freedom as something he can truly possess, or is it because he considers servitude a morally superior condition?

That one comic where Vader intentionally spares C-3PO from being melted down on Bespin kind of corroborates this. All he wanted on that planet was to do well by his children (though neither of them really understood his intentions, as usual).

R2-D2 expresses the will of the Force, of course. He's the sole witness to this drama of two generations of Skywalkers. Any time a coincidence leads to Anakin's destiny (however indirectly, and often through Luke), Artoo is involved. When a Skywalker or a friend thereof needs something unlikely to happen in order to prevail against overwhelming odds, Artoo is the one who makes it happen, and he knows things that many others do not. Famously, he doesn't get along with Yoda (who, despite the wisdom he gained in exile, still falls short of the enlightenment that Anakin and Luke each attain on the second Death Star) and I like to think their constant bickering is what keeps Luke from being so awed by his master's... mastery that he heeds the admonition not to walk into Vader's trap. Like the Force, Artoo is hard to understand, though neither Luke nor Anakin seem to have any difficulty, and Threepio has an especially close relationship.

* This is the same peace and justice that Obi-Wan tells Luke the Jedi Knights guarded. From a certain point of view, he was wrong. Luke, not having seen just how badly they hosed up that mission, refers to this claim when he says he and his father are Jedi.

Bongo Bill fucked around with this message at 10:46 on Mar 19, 2014

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!

Fun Shoe
But why do we assume that Luke doesn't go on to found a totally new Jedi Order with different ideals based on what he's learned from Vader? The movie ends before Luke has a chance to plan his next move doesn't it? I guess when he says "I am a Jedi, like my father before me" that suggests maybe he missed the point.

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

I believe SMG thinks that because the prequels were made chronologically later. There was also something in there about the age of Anakin's ghost varying between the various editions. It's a stretch to me. Palpatine failed to tempt Luke to become someone who kills in anger. The Jedi Order of old fought the Sith, and whatever that war made them, it was not great. The last of that religion killed the last Sith, and told the first of whatever comes next that he was right.

If you're going to allow the difference to turn on something as small as whether the dead he communes with are sufficiently radical, you'd be better off considering Leia, who is more or less the leader of what the EU but not the films will tell you is called "The Alliance to Restore the Republic."

EU books by and large take place in a different universe, where the Force is powerful because of the superpowers it gives those who are born with the ability to use it, droids really are machines instead of people, Boba Fett isn't the ultimate chump, and the distinction between good and evil coincides exactly with what side of the war you're on. It's a universe where Yoda was right, and usually much less interesting for that reason among others.

I've been watching the CGI Clone Wars series lately, because apparently yes I am that bored, and an early episode has Yoda persuading a neutral alien king of the superiority of the Republic's cause by... winning a fight. I decided to stick with it because I'm interested to see whether it can maintain the balance of presenting a straightforward action adventure with purehearted heroes fighting against cackling cheating bloodthirsty villains, while also not contradicting a reading of the films where Yoda was wrong. So far, so good, though it's helped by the fact that Palpatine deliberately used the scariest minions he could find to make sure any Jedi who might otherwise refrain from toeing the proverbial party line are distracted or killed. In the earlier series by Genndy Tartakovsky, it made Dooku an interesting character, where he always behaves wholly in keeping with the principles that Jedi give lip service to, but between his contempt for their institution, the contingencies of war, and his apparent inability to confront Sidious directly, he also always plays the perfect menacing villain. The later series probably can't press the ambiguity as hard as it might confuse kids, but that's what Grievous and Ventress are for.

Bongo Bill fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Mar 19, 2014

Darko
Dec 23, 2004

There are entire episodes of the Clone Wars series that deal strictly with Yoda being wrong.

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

I'm looking forward to them!

I also enjoy how inept the battle droids are. In this age of Rebecca Sugar cartoons, it's surprising that simple morons measure up, but there you have it.

Assepoester
Jul 18, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 11 years!
Melman v2

Bongo Bill posted:

I'm looking forward to them!

I also enjoy how inept the battle droids are. In this age of Rebecca Sugar cartoons, it's surprising that simple morons measure up, but there you have it.
Rebecca Sugar has one cartoon :confused:

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN

Bongo Bill posted:

I believe SMG thinks that because the prequels were made chronologically later. There was also something in there about the age of Anakin's ghost varying between the various editions. It's a stretch to me. Palpatine failed to tempt Luke to become someone who kills in anger. The Jedi Order of old fought the Sith, and whatever that war made them, it was not great. The last of that religion killed the last Sith, and told the first of whatever comes next that he was right.

All prequels are achronological sequels. That's unavoidable.

But more than that: Although Return Of The Jedi leaves things open, everything leading up to that end is of a very specifically of a 'New Age', pagan ideology. And that's what most people understandably take away from it. The prequels satirize what Star Wars became: thousands of fans dressing up as Jedi - in fake beggars' robes - because Yoda's the good guy. Millions of people saying 'use the force' as just kind of a reference to vague mysticism. And outside of Star Wars, what is James Cameron's Avatar if not an entire epic film devoted to the nobility and purity of the Ewoks? The last thing we see in the original films was Yub Nub - how do you interpret that?

Jedi Knight Luigi
Jul 13, 2009

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

All prequels are achronological sequels. That's unavoidable.

But more than that: Although Return Of The Jedi leaves things open, everything leading up to that end is of a very specifically of a 'New Age', pagan ideology. And that's what most people understandably take away from it. The prequels satirize what Star Wars became: thousands of fans dressing up as Jedi - in fake beggars' robes - because Yoda's the good guy. Millions of people saying 'use the force' as just kind of a reference to vague mysticism. And outside of Star Wars, what is James Cameron's Avatar if not an entire epic film devoted to the nobility and purity of the Ewoks? The last thing we see in the original films was Yub Nub - how do you interpret that?

Original Yub Nub or Special Edition Yub Nub?

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

To expand on Vermain's excellent post: Of course communism. Why not communism.

Because nobody has ever been able to make it work?

It's a good ideal but unless you do the logistical planning and heavy lifting it's the Great Leap Forward all over again.

Danger
Jan 4, 2004

all desire - the thirst for oil, war, religious salvation - needs to be understood according to what he calls 'the demonogrammatical decoding of the Earth's body'
Specifically, Why not communism in the wake of neoliberal capitalism.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

Danger posted:

Specifically, Why not communism in the wake of neoliberal capitalism.

Still doesn't solve the problem of how you make it actually work this time.

Lunatic Pathos
May 16, 2004

I shouldn't tell you this but you're the only one I can trust...
How about democratic communism (like its supposed to be) instead of autocracies masquerading as communism, like we've had in reality? Not saying that's easy, either, I just don't feel like we've really had a democratic communistic state. I haven't done the reading, though, so is there some reason why you just have to have a dictator in order to get communism up and running?

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN

Maxwell Lord posted:

Still doesn't solve the problem of how you make it actually work this time.
Look at this defeatism.

The system currently in place does not actually work. How would you solve the problem?

Danger
Jan 4, 2004

all desire - the thirst for oil, war, religious salvation - needs to be understood according to what he calls 'the demonogrammatical decoding of the Earth's body'

Maxwell Lord posted:

Still doesn't solve the problem of how you make it actually work this time.

Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Look at this defeatism.

The system currently in place does not actually work. How would you solve the problem?

It's not defeatism- if you can actually deliver a coherent plan for a nonviolent transition to a fully egalitarian, nonauthoritarian society I'll be in favor of it.

But instead of offering that you just morally condemn everyone who isn't on board with a poorly defined revolution that may end up in utopia or in another not-actually-communist society.

Sure, the governments of Stalin, Mao, etc. were not proper Communism- but proper Communism has only ever existed in theory. Should we try to at least see if it works in practice? Sure. Can you blame people for being skeptical about it and seeking non-revolution solutions in the meantime? No.

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

I don't think Cinema Discusso is the place to enumerate the differences between the theory and practice of communism.

The MSJ
May 17, 2010

Watched an episode of Clone Wars today, where Obi Wan gets rescued from Mandalorian rebels by his Neutral Planets leader girlfriend Duchess Satine. In the end, Obi Wan wants her planet to join the Clone Wars because those Mandalorians were working with Separatists but she prefers to maintain her neutral stance. The Jedi leaves the planet saying "these people's peace-loving ways are starting to tire me'.

redshirt
Aug 11, 2007

Reporting for shovel mission Sir.

The MSJ posted:

Watched an episode of Clone Wars today, where Obi Wan gets rescued from Mandalorian rebels by his Neutral Planets leader girlfriend Duchess Satine. In the end, Obi Wan wants her planet to join the Clone Wars because those Mandalorians were working with Separatists but she prefers to maintain her neutral stance. The Jedi leaves the planet saying "these people's peace-loving ways are starting to tire me'.

Did Obi Wan hook up with her?

Moose King
Nov 5, 2009

The MSJ posted:

Watched an episode of Clone Wars today, where Obi Wan gets rescued from Mandalorian rebels by his Neutral Planets leader girlfriend Duchess Satine. In the end, Obi Wan wants her planet to join the Clone Wars because those Mandalorians were working with Separatists but she prefers to maintain her neutral stance. The Jedi leaves the planet saying "these people's peace-loving ways are starting to tire me'.

Just watched that episode a couple days ago too, that line immediately reminded me of the discussion in this thread. The fact that the people he's referring to are the loving Mandalorians is icing on the cake. The people who at one time almost conquered the galaxy are too peaceful for Obi-Wan "This Weapon Is Your Life" Kenobi.

TheBigBudgetSequel
Nov 25, 2008

It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me.
I laughed so hard when they revealed his girlfriend's name was Satine. just had to throw a Moulin Rouge joke in.

Corek
May 11, 2013

by R. Guyovich

Moose King posted:

Just watched that episode a couple days ago too, that line immediately reminded me of the discussion in this thread. The fact that the people he's referring to are the loving Mandalorians is icing on the cake. The people who at one time almost conquered the galaxy are too peaceful for Obi-Wan "This Weapon Is Your Life" Kenobi.

Ironically the Clone Wars Mandalorians were themselves a huge retcon for the much more warlike Traviss Mandalorians, which were a retcon for Boba Fett's original backstory in the Marvel comics. Clone Wars took out a lot of the established EU, even minor bits, in the first season alone.

Assepoester
Jul 18, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 11 years!
Melman v2
Yeah "The Clone Wars" Mandalorians were actually if not exactly peaceful, at least dedicated to staying out of galactic wars and poo poo. There was a fascist faction that wanted to overthrow Satine and get involved in the war which created the conflict in that Clone Wars arc.

SirDrone
Jul 23, 2013

I am so sick of these star wars

redshirt posted:

Did Obi Wan hook up with her?

Sorry, hooking up leads to death and the darkside because

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

The Force is faith.

SirDrone
Jul 23, 2013

I am so sick of these star wars
Are Jedi even allowed to have sex or use drugs or or...do anything fun?

SirDrone fucked around with this message at 13:41 on Mar 20, 2014

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

SirDrone posted:

Are Jedi even allowed to have sex or use drugs or or...do anything fun?

The Jedi Order seemed to expect its members to embrace asceticism. They weren't supposed to do that sort of thing, whether or not there was any kind of rule about it.

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computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP
The Night's Watch from Game of Thrones is basically a satire on the Jedi Order and the archetype of the orders that it drew from.

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