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syphon posted:Really? Kelsier and Raoden (I couldn't remember who he was at first) sounded very similar to me, but Kaladin doesn't sound anything like them, mopey or not! He's much more... serious I guess. He is a more serious character, though, to be fair, we mostly see him in particularly dire situations (as a slave, as a bridgeman, as a distrustful bodyguard surrounded by people he doesnt like). However, in WoK, when he manages to climb out of his melancholia, his Optimist's Guide to Bridgemen Rehabilitation was right out of the Raoden/Kelsier playbook.
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Mar 19, 2014 20:42
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I finished WoR and now I'm going to post a couple of things/observations/crazy theories for people to make fun of! 1) This world (Roshar?) was created by Cultivation. The plants, animals, and people of this world (that is the parshendi/listeners and not the humans) and most of the spren are of Cultivation originally. Honor (and humans and Horses and a few other animals) came to this place later, at the same time as, or sometime before Odium came to this planet. 2) Cultivation is destroyed, diminished, or bound in some way that prevents it (her?) from acting or changing this planet. Maybe Odium shattered her like he did the shards of the elantris world, maybe something else happened, but she's effectively gone. The parshendi/listeners feel as if the spren abandoned them, and turned to/found their "gods" in response. Their "gods" are of course Odium/Odium spren. 3) The highstorms are of Honor, as it is a splinter/spren of his that controls/causes them. The Highstorms bring nutrients (in the form of crem) that the life of this planet depends on to survive. The rains (or at least the rains of the weeping) do not. They also bring stormlight, which the people and spren of Honor use in order to fight Odium. The Highstorms are an attempt by Honor to make up for the loss/diminishment of Cultivation and a means of opposing Odium. 4) In Cultivations absence Odium has "take over" her creations. He uses his spren to transform all of Cultivations creation in order to twist it into a weapon for use against Honor. Every animal native to Roshar as well as the plants and the very stones can be twisted by these Odium spren. 5) Odium did not kill Honor, Honor committed suicide. Honor tricked Odium into making an agreement that would bind Odium to this planet, and as deception and manipulation are against Honor's nature, this act destroyed him. I feel like all of these but #5 are sure bets. #5 is honestly just a guess based on the themes of these books and what I know of the nature of shardholders, and it's likely wrong, but I felt the need to get it out there anyway.
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Mar 19, 2014 22:16
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Regarding what Shardblades are: Are they spren trapped against their will (or formed into a weapon and abandoned by a radiant) and that's why they scream?
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Mar 19, 2014 22:23
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ExCruceLeo posted:Regarding what Shardblades are: Are they spren trapped against their will (or formed into a weapon and abandoned by a radiant) and that's why they scream? It's like having a datajack implanted in your brain, then someone yanking it out of your skull. And then using your near-comatose corpse as a weapon.
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Mar 19, 2014 22:34
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NecroMonster posted:I finished WoR and now I'm going to post a couple of things/observations/crazy theories for people to make fun of! Re: 3. I always thought the fact that the highstorms brought crem/nutrients implied that they are at least partially of Cultivation. Then again, Dalinars visions from Honor also came via Highstorm, as does stormlight, so my personal understanding was that highstorms are something like the Mists on Scadrial - they are part of the body of Honor and Cultivation (and Odium might even be mixed in there too). As seen on Scadrial, shards of Adonalsium were once part of a whole and so can be re-combined. Preservation and Ruin were basically opposites and were combined to create a more balanced whole. In the same way, I see Odium and Honor as being more or less opposites. Cultivation would reinforce Honor, and might curb the destructive tendency of Odium. I'd like to see Harmony take up Cultivations shard, as that would increase the creative power of Harmony. Maybe Odium has shattered Cultivation, but Odium itself has also been broken apart. There might be some less 'evil' combinations of Odium/Cultivation floating around in the form of Spren, as there are spren which are of Honor/Cultivation. A combination of Honor/Odium might be very dangerous - if Cultivation were thrown in it might be much safer to handle.
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Mar 19, 2014 23:01
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I've just finished the Mistborn trilogy and really enjoyed it, but I'm not quite sure where to go from here. From what I can gather, The Stormlight Archives is about the universe that all of Sanderson's books take place in. Should I read anything else of Sanderson's before starting on Way of Kings?
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Mar 19, 2014 23:09
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Tea Bone posted:I've just finished the Mistborn trilogy and really enjoyed it, but I'm not quite sure where to go from here. From what I can gather, The Stormlight Archives is about the universe that all of Sanderson's books take place in. Should I read anything else of Sanderson's before starting on Way of Kings? You don't need to read anything, but the most relevant is probably Warbreaker. And even that is barely relevant at all and only to book 2 of Stormlight. Personally I'd just go straight to Way of Kings.
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Mar 19, 2014 23:13
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Tea Bone posted:I've just finished the Mistborn trilogy and really enjoyed it, but I'm not quite sure where to go from here. From what I can gather, The Stormlight Archives is about the universe that all of Sanderson's books take place in. Should I read anything else of Sanderson's before starting on Way of Kings? The Emperor's soul is great, and also short.
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Mar 19, 2014 23:26
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Well, I just finished it, and my main question: has anyone else theorised that, as per Mistborn, there are actually 16 Surges rather than 10, and the remaining 6 will be super-important? The Cosmere really likes that number after all
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Mar 20, 2014 00:56
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thespaceinvader posted:Well, I just finished it, and my main question: The ever increasing number of metals in Mistborn (aren't we technically past 16 due to alloy) are easily the worst part of that series for me. :/ So I guess what I am saying is I hope not. One of Sanderson's biggest strengths are these well defined magic systems, and stuff like what he did in Alloy of Law just seemed like a lazy way to get backpedal around established rules.
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Mar 20, 2014 01:02
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Habibi posted:The ever increasing number of metals in Mistborn (aren't we technically past 16 due to alloy) are easily the worst part of that series for me. :/ The gently caress are you talking about? There's been a complete list of metals for quite some time. There are exactly sixteen basic metals. The count was thrown off because they didn't realize that Atium and Lerasium were not actually metals. The metals they didn't know about in the original trilogy were the ones that they didn't have the technology base to produce.
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Mar 20, 2014 01:11
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Both 10 and 16 seem to be important numbers. But yeah, if we're talking magic system nitpicks, I'd have liked it if feruchemy were a little more symmetric. Partly that's just because Brandon screwed up on feruchemical warmth, so bronze is a mental metal for allomancy and physical for feruchemy, but some pairing with pushing/pulling type stuff would have been nice. Tunicate fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Mar 20, 2014 |
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Mar 20, 2014 02:15
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NinjaDebugger posted:There's been a complete list of metals for quite some time. There are exactly sixteen basic metals. The count was thrown off because they didn't realize that Atium and Lerasium were not actually metals. Sure, if by 'quite some time' you mean 'toward the very end of the original trilogy.' Otherwise, the charts for the books went 8, 12, 14, and then 16 (this time excluding gods). And the books themselves were pretty adamant about it at each state right up until a new metal(s) needed to be introduced for plot reasons. First it was eight. Then oh and these two special ones. Then another, and another. And then boom, six more out of nowhere. And all the while we had these charts and ars arcanums and everything! In retrospect, yes, there were always sixteen metals. But as you're going through the books, it seemed like a constant tacking-on. It's not unlike if it turns out in the next Stormlight novel that actually there are sixteen surges, and each Radiant gets four (four being a newly significant number as it's the square root of 16), and in retrospect, after the series is concluded, we will say 'oh but there were always 16 surges and 4 per Radiant, it was just unknown at the time for <reasons>!' But at the time, what you really have are charts and ars arcanum-y annotations suggesting a totally different reality. And that's why it struck me as sort of lazy back pedaling. I guess the way it appeared to me at the time was that when what seems to be a well-defined magic system keeps evolving with every book, it's no longer well-defined. With all that said, I may be misremembering the stuff with alloys from AoL. I'll have to double check.
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Mar 20, 2014 02:59
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I dunno man, when the chart looks like this And is missing something that showed up in the book, it's pretty hardcore telegraphing. I mean, it's like 10% of the way through the first book that you hear 'mistings can have eight, mistborn get 10 and kelsier has a mysterious eleventh metal. Also, metals are organized into internal/external pushing/pulling quadrants.' I admit, we don't see another metal until like, chapter 36 of book one, where Vin gets aluminumed. But after that point there's already enough evidence to expect there to be sixteen total. I know, because I expected sixteen total at that point. Tunicate fucked around with this message at 03:32 on Mar 20, 2014 |
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Mar 20, 2014 03:27
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the thing i find most interesting is that what feels very planned and well executed to me, appears to others to be tacked on and deus ex machina. Sandersons systems are anything but cobbled together as he writes. He doesn't always give you everything up front, but it's always well planned in advance. He's got a private wiki that only he and his head pr guy can access and he estimated it's got something like an additional 300,000 words per book of background info, world building, and outlines that barely make it into the book.
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Mar 20, 2014 04:12
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Tunicate posted:I dunno man, when the chart looks like this Hrm, you know what, I read the books on my Kindle and I didn't even see those little picture glyph things originally - just the charts of known metals. With that (which granted is from the second book), I could understand how you'd see the eventuality building.
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Mar 20, 2014 04:18
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treeboy posted:the thing i find most interesting is that what feels very planned and well executed to me, appears to others to be tacked on and deus ex machina. Sandersons systems are anything but cobbled together as he writes. He doesn't always give you everything up front, but it's always well planned in advance. He's got a private wiki that only he and his head pr guy can access and he estimated it's got something like an additional 300,000 words per book of background info, world building, and outlines that barely make it into the book. Just because something is planned / designed in detail well ahead of time doesn't mean it will seem that way in reading. I thought a lot of the plot connections in the second and third Mistborn books (eg: the resolution of the Kandra bargain) seemed forced and gave off a vibe of 'ooh I desperately need to tie these two elements together' (it may be because those particular elements seemed to just happen, rather than flowing naturally with/from the narrative), but I am guessing that that was not the manner in which they were originally written into the story. e: I actually enjoy not being given a lot of stuff up front (I mean, Steven Erikson is my favorite fantasy author, so...), but, I don't know, something about how the metal thing was handled (past the first book) just seemed off. Habibi fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Mar 20, 2014 |
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Mar 20, 2014 04:25
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The Ars Arcanum is based on incomplete knowledge itself (it's written by someone in-universe, chief suspect Hoid). So if you expected them to have defined the complete magic system for you in the Ars Arcanum as a reference then I can see why you'd be confused. It's very clear at this point that Sanderson likes to keep a part of his magic system secret for the big reveals. I expect there's probably secret/unknown knight radiant orders to maintain the symmetry with the 16 original shards of Adonalsium. It may be there's a possible 16 surges granted by Honor much like the 16 Allomancy metals granted by Preservation. In Mistborn there are 3 metal magics, one of Preservation (Allomancy), one of Ruin (Hemalurgy) and one that came from a combination of the two shards (Feruchemy). On Roshar it appears that Surgebinding is of Honor, if it's similar to Mistborn then there's potentially another set of powers given by Cultivation (Cultibinding?) and Odium (Voidbinding?) and probably powers given by the interaction between them, Surgecultibinding, Surgevoidbinding, Voidcultibinding (after all, that's the explanation for Feruchemy). each probably using Stormlight for investiture much like metals were used on Scandrial for the 3x16 metal magics. If this is potentially accurate there could be as many as 6x16 = 96 types of power or variations of power in the Roshar system.  Gotta dream big to stay ahead of Sanderson.
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Mar 20, 2014 05:03
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Xachariah posted:The Ars Arcanum is based on incomplete knowledge itself (it's written by someone in-universe, chief suspect Hoid). So if you expected them to have defined the complete magic system for you in the Ars Arcanum as a reference then I can see why you'd be confused. quote:It's very clear at this point that Sanderson likes to keep a part of his magic system secret for the big reveals. quote:On Roshar it appears that Surgebinding is of Honor, if it's similar to Mistborn then there's potentially another set of powers given by Cultivation (Cultibinding?) and Odium (Voidbinding?) and probably powers given by the interaction between them, Surgecultibinding, Surgevoidbinding, Voidcultibinding (after all, that's the explanation for Feruchemy). quote:each probably using Stormlight for investiture much like metals were used on Scandrial for the 3x16 metal magics. quote:If this is potentially accurate there could be as many as 6x16 = 96 types of power or variations of power in the Roshar system. Habibi fucked around with this message at 05:30 on Mar 20, 2014 |
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Mar 20, 2014 05:22
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You forgot surgevoidcultibinding for another 16 variants 
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Mar 20, 2014 05:28
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AllTerrineVehicle posted:You forgot surgevoidcultibinding for another 16 variants I DIDN'T DREAM BIG ENOUGH. 
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Mar 20, 2014 05:34
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Xachariah posted:I DIDN'T DREAM BIG ENOUGH. Ah, yes, the 16th ideal.
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Mar 20, 2014 05:44
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Speaking of Ideals and our favorite moping protagonist rear end in a top hat who has to be prodded to do the right thing at every turn: Are we going to get Yet Another Oath/Ideal when Kaladin has to not only restrain himself from killing Roshone, who is actively malicious instead of simply via neglect, but has to also try to rescue him? Reunions Further, we're going to have potentially 3 reunions in the next book of the POV protagonist characters and their families--Shallan and her brothers, Kaladin and his parents, and potentially Adolin/Dalinar and Jasnah. Interesting parallels to be had here. Ghostbloods: Mraize refers to the scout/assassin-type character Shallan sneaks up on and accompanies to the psych ward ardents as his teacher (and she is probably his babsk, who he refers to offhandedly on one or two occasions). We've, and Shallan has, been assuming that Mraize is the actual leader of the Ghostbloods, but that seems to not be the case. Who is this person? Why was she trying to kill Amaram AFTER the Final Desolation/Everstorm had arrived--who in turn was fortunate enough to be saved by Talenelat? Diagram + Ghostbloods In an epigraph, the Diagram refers to a wanderer character that the author, the genius sociopathic Taravangian shies away at the implications of, who wonders if it's Mraize. How does this inform us of what the Ghostbloods truly are and are up to? Skybreakers + Ghostbloods Mraize believes Helaran Davar was a Skybreaker, which 99.99% means he was likely working for Nalan, the Herald of Justice that's been going around killing potential Surgebinders. Yet Helaran was apparently not direct opposed to Shallan's father, who is as deep with the Ghostbloods as any, EXCEPT on the fact that his father was falling apart and ruining the family. What does this say about the Ghostbloods and their goals? VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 06:06 on Mar 20, 2014 |
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Mar 20, 2014 06:01
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Nah, what you really need to do is get a big source of Breath, and Awaken a sword made of an atium/lerasium alloy (which *potentially* could explode in a nuclear-level reaction according to WoB). Then take this highly unstable blade and stab it through spren from each surgebinder's order, through whatever area you need to use hemalurgy. Then insert the spike into an elantrian, to create an allowachemilurgebindor.
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Mar 20, 2014 06:04
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My own prediction is that Adolin and Shallan may get married briefly, but Adolin is not going to survive Szeth's book and then Shallan and Kaladin are going to have a PTSD relationship.
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Mar 20, 2014 06:05
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Lobsterpillar posted:Re: 2. The fact that Cultivation doesn't appear to be doing an anything certainly is telling. Honor is certainly putting on a show of force - The knights radiant, the Heralds, etc. Cultivation might just be of a pacifist nature, after all gardeners are not known for getting involved in wars. Then again, if Cultivation is broken that also explains the inaction quote:Re: 3. I always thought the fact that the highstorms brought crem/nutrients implied that they are at least partially of Cultivation. Then again, Dalinars visions from Honor also came via Highstorm, as does stormlight, so my personal understanding was that highstorms are something like the Mists on Scadrial - they are part of the body of Honor and Cultivation (and Odium might even be mixed in there too). ExCruceLeo posted:Regarding what Shardblades are: Are they spren trapped against their will (or formed into a weapon and abandoned by a radiant) and that's why they scream?
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Mar 20, 2014 06:14
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In terms of Intents, the other shard that most closely complements Cultivation is Ruin... not sure what to think about that.
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Mar 20, 2014 06:29
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Tunicate posted:In terms of Intents, the other shard that most closely complements Cultivation is Ruin... not sure what to think about that. What do you mean?
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Mar 20, 2014 06:35
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api call girl posted:
I just assumed this was a reference to Wit
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Mar 20, 2014 06:49
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Habibi posted:Perhaps another way to look at it is that Cultivation, by definition, is a force that bides its time and draws the necessary elements together and only acts when everything is ready. And perhaps we are not seeing its touch because it hasn't moved its pieces into place yet - or perhaps it is in fact acting to bring those elements in line, but the effects are too broad to be obvious (eg; while Honor is responsible for the powers of the Radiants, perhaps it is Cultivation's influence that brings them together). Actually, one thing that might be reflecting Cultivation's approach is the Diagram. I mean, talk about cultivation - this thing is a stupidly detailed, remarkably long-term plan of action that takes into account countless variables. Interestingly, if there is any accuracy to this, it would then appear that Cultivation and Honor don't necessarily work to the same ends. That's a very interesting theory, considering that a lot of people think the Nightmother (that gave the Diagram guy his genius intellect/curse) is an aspect of Cultivation. Also, when the Nightmother gave Lift her infinite stormlight via eating boon, which potentially world-changingly useful - she's the only person in the world with an infinitely renewable source of magic juice without needing storms to recharge. If Cultivation gave her that gift, then it's clearly planning for her to be a major player, and might be one of her 'pieces' to move against Odium.
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Mar 20, 2014 06:51
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Habibi posted:What do you mean? I thought this too, and it implies that Harmony is not 'balanced', as it is a combination of keeping things the same (Preservation) and destruction (Ruin). Cultivation/Ruin would more or less cancel out and make something very much like a dynamic Preservation.
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Mar 20, 2014 07:09
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Tunicate posted:In terms of Intents, the other shard that most closely complements Cultivation is Ruin... not sure what to think about that. Mistborn spoiler: Preservation was the opposite of Ruin, both combined made Harmony. Does every shard even have a exact opposite? There is no Dishonor shard for example. Instead you have Odium kinda opposite of "good" trait shards.
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Mar 20, 2014 07:11
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Lemme rephrase Preservation and Ruin are opposites. Cultivation is the one most similar to Ruin. Which makes her Intent somewhat suspect. Also apparently she was dating Honor when they settled on Roshar. So who knows what's up with that. Cultivation as the ultimate crazy ex-girlfriend?
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Mar 20, 2014 07:16
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Just speculation based on the above conversation: It may be that Ruin and Cultivation are both about control and change over time. Ruin used control in his personal hemalurgy powerset over the Steel Inquisitors and attempted to bring about greater entropy and decay, or, change. Cultivation is controlling growth, evolution and constant refining, basically controlling change. Could be a hint that Culivation is a bit of a dictator. And can enforce control through the powers she grants. Completely off the wall speculative theory here but maybe Odium isn't the big bad after all, maybe it's Cultivation who has gone plain crazy due to her power/Honors death and is trying to control the parshendi through the powers she grants to get at Odium or some poo poo. Or this could be completely baseless, isn't speculation fun?
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Mar 20, 2014 08:24
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So just a thought after finishing the book. This is on Hoid/Wit. Anyone else think what he might be trying to become a small god, so to speak? He has that bit of lerasium, he has feruchemy, he has Breath due to the perfect pitch, he probably has Taln's Honorblade which grants some Surgebinding. I can't help but feel like he's trying to take a little bit of the magic of each shard and combine them, either in himself, or in some other way. If it's himself, well, the Lord Ruler had access to the power of two shards in such a way. Imagine Hoid with the power of sixteen. My own thought is that he's literally turning himself into a Shardbearer in a sense, but one that doesn't have to contend with a single overwhelming shard but rather several small ones. The small ones will let him remain him, but he might be able to somehow use the complimentary aspects of each to get a similar level of power. edit: Another thought on general magic in the cosmere. It seems to me like the more shards a world has, the easier it is to actually draw on magic, but the more constrained it becomes? See Roshar, for instance, with three shards interacting. Stormlight is loving everywhere really, and can power most any magic. poo poo is a bit rarer on Scadriel, where you need to ingest the proper metal. Still, that's easier than Warbreaker's world, where there is only one shard. But pretty much everyone in Warbreaker's world has Breath, just in varying amounts, and it can do a bunch of stuff. Whereas a magic ability in Roshar or Scadriel is typically fairly limited. Roshar doesn't even seem to have the equivalent of a Mistborn, that can use it all. Just two types per person, and what these types do is defined, and Radiants seem like they were pretty rare and are even rarer today. It seems like the more shards there are, the more of an accord, of sorts, has to form between them in how magic is going to operate. At the same time, there is more power available for people with magic to actually use. One of the worldhoppers (I forget who) even comments that the shards on Roshar are strict. SerSpook fucked around with this message at 10:28 on Mar 20, 2014 |
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Mar 20, 2014 10:20
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Atlas Hugged posted:
The only funny joke shallan ever told: "words of radiance, page 558 posted:
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Mar 20, 2014 11:07
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Also got this from the 17th shard when it comes to abilities of the Radiants. Each Order seems to have its own special skill that others don't. Like Kaladin. He can do his Lashings, which are what his two Surges give him, but then he has the crazy fighting thing with the winds seeming to guide him. When Syl was gone, he didn't have that. Then you have Shallan. Apparently it's been noticed that she's been essentially remote viewing when she just draws, at least to an extent. She sketched out the Herald Shallash hammering out a face in her statue it seems generally agreed, right after she sketches the crew she wrecked with escaping. Her memory might also be related to this, since it was noted that Lightweaver's have mnemonic skills in one of the chapter starts. Renarin is of an order said have some precognitive abilities, yet his surges are Illumination (like Shallan) and I think Regrowth? Like Lift healed with. Neither of these give him that, but maybe the interaction of two surges brings forth a new ability?
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Mar 20, 2014 11:31
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Oh definitely, Surgebinders don't just have control of the 2 surges but a special power that's a combination thereof. Shallan gave herself away to the Ghostbloods not because of her illusions or Shardblade, but because of her memory. The Ghostbloods went after her carriage not because they were to assassinate her, but to pressure her to exhibit her Surgebinding abilities. I feel pretty confident about this. She might be accurately called an Else'seer' as Jasnah is an Elsecaller. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Mar 20, 2014 |
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Mar 20, 2014 13:35
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senae posted:The only funny joke shallan ever told: There was also the one about having a tongue all over her. That was the closest I noticed Brandon coming to a dirty joke 
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Mar 20, 2014 13:54
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Xachariah posted:In Mistborn there are 3 metal magics, one of Preservation (Allomancy), one of Ruin (Hemalurgy) and one that came from a combination of the two shards (Feruchemy). On Roshar it appears that Surgebinding is of Honor, if it's similar to Mistborn then there's potentially another set of powers given by Cultivation (Cultibinding?) and Odium (Voidbinding?) and probably powers given by the interaction between them, Surgecultibinding, Surgevoidbinding, Voidcultibinding (after all, that's the explanation for Feruchemy). each probably using Stormlight for investiture much like metals were used on Scandrial for the 3x16 metal magics. (And Sel has at least four kinds of magic (AonDor, Chayshan, whatever Dakhor monks use, and Forgery) with only two Shards, so it may not always be as simple as Scadrial either.)
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Mar 20, 2014 14:45
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