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Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
kde is offensively ugly, that's the main reason i don't use it

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infernal machines
Oct 11, 2012

we have sealed ourselves away behind our money, growing inward, generating a seamless universe of self.

Mr Dog posted:

kde is offensively ugly, that's the main reason i don't use it

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene
idk how hard it is to theme kde to be unoffensive.

it is probably worth it

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
there's themes and then there's lovely layout and padding

unpadded buttons are just :barf: kde's ugliness isn't something a lick of paint can fix

Symbolic Butt
Mar 22, 2009

(_!_)
Buglord
ok I installed ubuntu gnome today so I can take a look at gnome 3, first thing I look at these updates after I just installed it and




what

cowboy beepboop
Feb 24, 2001

why did you install ubuntu. fedora 20 is a better gnome experience.

cowboy beepboop
Feb 24, 2001

suspicious dish can you please make gnome software not ask me to restart and update every single day it's worse than windows

Valeyard
Mar 30, 2012


Grimey Drawer
install scientific linux

Symbolic Butt
Mar 22, 2009

(_!_)
Buglord

my stepdads beer posted:

why did you install ubuntu. fedora 20 is a better gnome experience.

idk I'm used to apt also centos packages really let me down in a way that even ubuntu never really hosed me up so I'm afraid of the yum now

infernal machines
Oct 11, 2012

we have sealed ourselves away behind our money, growing inward, generating a seamless universe of self.

Symbolic Butt posted:

idk I'm used to apt also centos packages really let me down in a way that even ubuntu never really hosed me up so I'm afraid of the yum now

i've never once had a dist-upgrade do anything but gently caress my system into unbootability. not once has it worked.

Suspicious Dish
Sep 24, 2011

2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro
Fun Shoe

my stepdads beer posted:

suspicious dish can you please make gnome software not ask me to restart and update every single day it's worse than windows

It should be once a week, not once a day. Again, the long-term solution is to have a barrier between applications and the OS, and not have applications as packages.

Suspicious Dish
Sep 24, 2011

2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro
Fun Shoe

Symbolic Butt posted:

idk I'm used to apt also centos packages really let me down in a way that even ubuntu never really hosed me up so I'm afraid of the yum now

You should be afraid of yum. It's bad and stupid.

double sulk
Jul 2, 2010

the only good non-headless linux is crunchbang

CUNT AND PASTE
Aug 15, 2004

~see my amazon wishlistu~

double sulk posted:

the only good non-headless linux is crunchbang

tell me about ur conky config, double sulk, how many meters does it have

Symbolic Butt
Mar 22, 2009

(_!_)
Buglord
have a picture of 2014 year of linux on the symbolic buttstop



it's so white

Valeyard
Mar 30, 2012


Grimey Drawer
in it voted 5

Suspicious Dish
Sep 24, 2011

2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro
Fun Shoe
use amberpos

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Symbolic Butt posted:

ok I installed ubuntu gnome today so I can take a look at gnome 3, first thing I look at these updates after I just installed it and




what

ubuntu is loving terrible. you could literally not have done worse.

as much as i hate gnome 3, i am pretty sure you did not give it a fair shake

Suspicious Dish
Sep 24, 2011

2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro
Fun Shoe
Yes, the weird clipping and overlapping drawing is a bug in Ubuntu GNOME, caused by Ubuntu's patches to GTK+.

Symbolic Butt
Mar 22, 2009

(_!_)
Buglord
*sigh* ok tomorrow I'll try fedora geez

infernal machines
Oct 11, 2012

we have sealed ourselves away behind our money, growing inward, generating a seamless universe of self.

Suspicious Dish posted:

Yes, the weird clipping and overlapping drawing is a bug in Ubuntu GNOME, caused by Ubuntu's patches to GTK+.

so basically you're hosed, you can't make a consistent DE because the distos can just break it with whatever hackjob they decide to ship

this is why linux on the desktop doesn't work. there are a million different implementations of everything, users can't just grab one and go because they have no way of knowing what will be broken by any given distro. and there's always something broken.

Suspicious Dish
Sep 24, 2011

2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro
Fun Shoe

Symbolic Butt posted:

*sigh* ok tomorrow I'll try fedora geez

You don't have to do anything if you really don't want to: just letting you know that it's a known Ubuntu GNOME bug, and there's nothing us GNOME developers can do about it.

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Symbolic Butt posted:

*sigh* ok tomorrow I'll try fedora geez

just as a reminder.

good linux, like people actually use to make money and not be laughed at:
  • rhel
  • centos
  • sles

middlin' linux, like beardos like on their desktops:
  • debian
  • fedora

crap linux is everything else. ubuntu earns a special place in hell though. it is literally the worst of the worst. it's a bait-and-switch, they promise you one thing and you get another. at least gentoo and arch are exactly what they claim to be

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

infernal machines posted:

so basically you're hosed, you can't make a consistent DE because the distos can just break it with whatever hackjob they decide to ship

this is why linux on the desktop doesn't work. there are a million different implementations of everything, users can't just grab one and go because they have no way of knowing what will be broken by any given distro. and there's always something broken.

no, it works fine on every sane linux

ubuntu is just dogshit in a pressure cooker. you literally cannot find a worse distribution. it is a clusterfuck in every way, from every angle

think about this: i was just put in the position of defending gtk 3

infernal machines
Oct 11, 2012

we have sealed ourselves away behind our money, growing inward, generating a seamless universe of self.

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

no, it works fine on every sane linux

ubuntu is just dogshit in a pressure cooker. you literally cannot find a worse distribution. it is a clusterfuck in every way, from every angle

think about this: i was just put in the position of defending gtk 3

okay, so can you name a "sane" linux distro that consumer oriented, intended to be installed on a desktop? i.e. one that has a graphical installer, auto-partitioning, and doesn't dump you to a command line to install graphics/sound/wireless/whatever when there are no working open source drivers.

Suspicious Dish
Sep 24, 2011

2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro
Fun Shoe

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

think about this: i was just put in the position of defending gtk 3

The horror!

Wild EEPROM
Jul 29, 2011


oh, my, god. Becky, look at her bitrate.

i dont get it

the b&w ones:

sideways imgur logo, a lego man sitting at a chair with his arms out, a cone with tits, pacman eating a clock with offset hands
flashlight music, space docking, drafting tools, a lovely drawing of a cat
a soap dispensor, a waterfall, minimizing to the windows toolbar, time before 2:55
an googly eye stuck to a sign, someone with a long finger pointing at a chat bubble, an internet explorer notepad, a double pull double throw switch which follows an S motion
space docking part 2, a ladder covering a large cymbal, an xbox, cannibalism
a box with the flaps open, soap in a soap dish, a bluetooth earpiece on its stand, playing a video
picture of a mountain, pencil with a broken tip, alien invaders shooting, a warning about tubes of red paint

the color ones:
a tiny golf club hitting a ball, a golf ball near a flag, 69, a leaf made by m&m
the new segway, a window in a door, tetris, a square feeting a fish to another square
that same bluetooth earpiece on a stand, the same bad cat drawing, a robotic spider, a lovely bee colony
knockoff of the OCP logo, 2 hunchbacks loving, a snake with arms, a poorly placed seal on an envelope
2 of those tower of hanoi things stuck back to back, the same alien invader shooting, a reduce reuse recycle drawing, a piece of toast

i dont get it

Sham bam bamina!
Nov 6, 2012

ƨtupid cat

Wild EEPROM posted:

i dont get it
"feeting" :raise:

Symbolic Butt
Mar 22, 2009

(_!_)
Buglord

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

just as a reminder.

good linux, like people actually use to make money and not be laughed at:
  • rhel
  • centos
  • sles

middlin' linux, like beardos like on their desktops:
  • debian
  • fedora

crap linux is everything else. ubuntu earns a special place in hell though. it is literally the worst of the worst. it's a bait-and-switch, they promise you one thing and you get another. at least gentoo and arch are exactly what they claim to be

I've been using ubuntu and debian exclusively for idk how long. in my home mostly ubuntu with awesomewm because I didn't care really. like infernal machines said, I never dist-upgrade lol

I think the last time I saw ubuntu break REALLY HARD was in 2007 because of some xorg update shenanigan

so anyway I finally decided to try new stuff because I wanna be a hip linix person

Symbolic Butt
Mar 22, 2009

(_!_)
Buglord

Wild EEPROM posted:

a cone with tits

I'm p sure you get it heh

CUNT AND PASTE
Aug 15, 2004

~see my amazon wishlistu~
can't believe i'm recommending someone try a fedora, but yes, try fedora

CUNT AND PASTE
Aug 15, 2004

~see my amazon wishlistu~
if you still have ubuntu gnome installed, you can try to limp along by adding the gnome3 ppa, then running update/upgrade. that will get you (mostly) up to gnome 3.10, which is current.

ShadowHawk
Jun 25, 2000

CERTIFIED PRE OWNED TESLA OWNER

Suspicious Dish posted:

I'm saying that the traditional way to provision a system using packages is broken and wrong, since it involves a lot of client-side shell scripts running as root, and is slow.

APT/DEB has the exact same issues. pacman has the exact same issues. zypper has the exact same issues. All package managers are built on this really broken philosophy.

Given the restriction of "install all these packages", it's hard to produce a useful, fast autobuilder that works correctly. So it sucks, but unless you do a drastic rethink, it's the way it's going to be.

Suspicious Dish posted:

Really, the core idea about packages is just wrong and bad. Packages have shell scripts that run as root when you install them, and you wouldn't believe the idiotic things that actually go in them that are running on your system as root when you type "yum install butts" or "rpm -Uvh butts.rpm".
Little late to this posting party but I gotta tell you to reinvestigate how Debian/Ubuntu packages actually work these days. Maintainer scripts are still possible, but the vast majority of packages have their maintainer scripts autogenerated by the packaging system now. Basically every "legit" use of a maintainer script (say, updating the font cache) was moved into Debhelper, and the package just invokes that. It's even smart enough to operate on triggers, so if you install two packages that do the same thing that just gets deferred until both are unpacked.

There are also a whole class of packages (the new Click packages) that are flat-out prohibited from having maintainer scripts, except those automatically generated by debhelper. These are ideal for "apps" that have no business running weird root code.

N.Z.'s Champion
Jun 8, 2003

Yam Slacker
there's also the idea that packages should be more atomic than 'running some scripts as root that does stuff' so that you can rollback a la NixOS

ShadowHawk
Jun 25, 2000

CERTIFIED PRE OWNED TESLA OWNER
Also Ubuntu is in that awkward stage right now where we're near the release of a new LTS and so no one wants to backport fixes to earlier releases because in a month we'll all be telling people to just upgrade to 14.04.

And ubuntu-gnome in 13.10 wasn't a real release yet it was like 2 people putting it together as a prototype. 14.04 ubuntu-gnome is actually like a real derivative.

CamH
Apr 11, 2008

Suspicious Dish posted:




what the gently caress is wrong with our company





they hired u

spankmeister
Jun 15, 2008






Suspicious Dish posted:

You should be afraid of yum. It's bad and stupid.

rpm -e --nodeps yum


done

Suspicious Dish
Sep 24, 2011

2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro
Fun Shoe

ShadowHawk posted:

Little late to this posting party but I gotta tell you to reinvestigate how Debian/Ubuntu packages actually work these days. Maintainer scripts are still possible, but the vast majority of packages have their maintainer scripts autogenerated by the packaging system now. Basically every "legit" use of a maintainer script (say, updating the font cache) was moved into Debhelper, and the package just invokes that. It's even smart enough to operate on triggers, so if you install two packages that do the same thing that just gets deferred until both are unpacked.

There are also a whole class of packages (the new Click packages) that are flat-out prohibited from having maintainer scripts, except those automatically generated by debhelper. These are ideal for "apps" that have no business running weird root code.

The issue is that they're still running scripts as root that make untracked changes to your operating system. Yes, that could be updating a font or icon cache, but you're still left with files on your system with no way to rollback.

I also looked at a random postinst for a service:

http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/trusty/accountsservice/trusty/view/head:/debian/accountsservice.postinst

It first tries to racily kill and restart the service. Cool. Then it does a random migration with regexps on /etc/default/locale and /etc/environment. The files are not backed up and if the script fucks up, your computer is a brick.

Well, you can repair it, but that means digging through poo poo in /etc/ that nobody should ever care about. Why the gently caress are config file migrations done with sed and awk in Ubuntu?

Suspicious Dish
Sep 24, 2011

2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro
Fun Shoe

ShadowHawk posted:

Also Ubuntu is in that awkward stage right now where we're near the release of a new LTS and so no one wants to backport fixes to earlier releases because in a month we'll all be telling people to just upgrade to 14.04.

Wait, what? You tell your customers running old LTSes that you aren't going to backport patches to it and to upgrade to the newest LTS as soon as it's available?

How is that in any way an LTS? I backport patches to RHEL5 every week. It loving sucks, but I do it because that's the contract the customer signed.

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spankmeister
Jun 15, 2008






That looks like a script i would make which means it's really bad.

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