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I probably enjoy theorycrafting about the world Diog has set up here more than voting on actions and whatnot. That said, I REALLY don't want to have to read two threads to keep up to date on all the lore and stuff going on. Doubly true when I am not allowed to have a vote in 50% of the decisions that might let us know more about the world.
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# ? Mar 26, 2014 21:30 |
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# ? Mar 28, 2024 13:53 |
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Fat Samurai posted:Welp, great time to finally catch up with the thread. This. I'd like to make it clear that even though I'm voting B, I've enjoyed this CYOA from the beginning, and just think it'll be more interesting to put team murderdeath in a new body.
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# ? Mar 26, 2014 21:32 |
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I guess we aren't doing psyche battle right now? A.
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# ? Mar 26, 2014 21:37 |
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A I really really don't understand the claims that Naomi keeps us "tied down". Tudiya took his young son out on a multi-month trip into the wild unknown for heaven's sake. I'm pretty sure we could take our wife on a round the world trip once we got strong enough. There's at least a dozen other things causing us to make our home in Zepath, none of which would keep us from traveling if we made some simple preparations (Danal and our Balls, for example). I think people are operating under misunderstandings of what Enkidel being married means, as well as what people who vote to worship El and do what Tudiya and Ishamal ask of us think/intend. I mean, from my point of view, all Tudiya has done is ask us to live by some simple rules while giving us awesome stuff and pushing us to go out and have badass adventures. Manhood trial? Tudiya Hunting with Aaron? Tudiya. Creating the Balls? Pretty much set up by Tudiya. And everyone pretty much loved Ish until he told us something we didn't want to hear (though it was a hell of a doozy, I'll grant you).
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# ? Mar 26, 2014 21:44 |
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A.
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# ? Mar 26, 2014 21:47 |
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the_steve posted:Sometimes your vote wins, and that's awesome. This and Globofglob's post really explain what I'm thinking, too, far better than I can. Its not that we occasionally vote to lose out on things like Indor. Its that we sometimes do things like making a contract with Indor and then revote on it constantly until we lose anyways.
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# ? Mar 26, 2014 21:50 |
A Remember when we were on our manhood trial and we killed that three eyed jaguar? Then we sacrificed it even though we were super hungry and it burned up really huge? That was awesome. I don't think Team El is boring.
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# ? Mar 26, 2014 21:50 |
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Jesus, why'd poo poo get so real? Anyway, voting A. The idea of B sounds just awesome, depending on who it gets. I'll fully admit that I'm someone who, in a way, has been disappointed with Enkindel's direction. I voted away from cities in the beginning precisely because I didn't want to end up in the sort of 'status quo' position we're in now, I was hoping to be out striding across mountains or swimming the ocean depths or something. But I'm an elemental kind of guy. Enkindel, as it turns out, isn't so much, but that's cool too; it's a cooperative game, it's working together to forge an entity that's fun. I'm still firmly attached to the idea of maintaining a core of our original, fishing-village, elemental-deity worshipping roots, and I still want to get out and explore, but it's as Enkindel that I want to do it. Enkindel is a more interesting character if he doesn't forget where he's come from, and I'm happy being that part of his psyche that yearns for distant places and ancient mysteries. Abandoning him now would feel like a let-down; my 'role' in this is as the part of his psyche I've already mentioned, but just as that part influences Enkindel, Enkindel's growth influences that part, and how it interprets and influences. I like changing my approach in order to keep a consistent voice in an organic, developing character, rather than just mindlessly pushing an agenda every chance I get. Although that being said, I'm really going to miss the HUNGER etc. groups if everyone is ditching to team B I'm also not sure I get the division. Why are 'team bored' votes so contentious? I understand they might be difficult to accomodate, or disheartening as the Diog, I mean, it's certainly not the feedback any creator wants to hear about 'his' work. But it's hardly unusual for someone to have a voice in their head that's bored with the way their life is going, and wants to screw everything and strike out in another direction. Hell, I'd say that's pretty realistic. Long story short, sticking with Enkindel. Unless the 'new' character ends up being Denziroh. You wouldn't do that to me, would you Diog? I can't not play Denziroh, I'm still in him! Actually, laying odds the new character is Azz or something. Diog never said it would be another mortal character. There was that other option at the beginning of the game, after all...
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# ? Mar 26, 2014 21:56 |
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I'm writing another post because this has nothing to do with my last one, and is way too long to stick on the end of it as an edit. I'll leave that sort of thing in Sogol's territory.Slaan posted:This and Globofglob's post really explain what I'm thinking, too, far better than I can. Its not that we occasionally vote to lose out on things like Indor. Its that we sometimes do things like making a contract with Indor and then revote on it constantly until we lose anyways. Yeah, this does feel like a bit of a serious problem sometimes. It's just so damned fickle. If our votes are supposed to represent the thoughts and decisions of this character, then when a vote is concluded, there should be some weight to that. The first vote indicated that Enkindel thought about it, weighed the pros and cons, listened to the dissenting voices, but eventually, as a whole individual, decided to go in one direction. Having him then immediately retread the same ground is sort of mad; he just did that, and made his decision. There ought to a grace period or something, maybe some sort of result has to be posted before it can be reconsidered, give Enkindel a reason to be rethinking what he just thought through. Of course though, my main concern in voting is typically to try and make a consistent character. I take previous votes, whether I agree with them or not, to be defining the character I'm playing as, so I craft my votes in ways that reflect that. I take previous votes as new sets of information about the character, just as any other information about the world would influence my votes, I can't ignore what decisions have been made. 'I'm in a character who believes such-and-such, how do I vote?'. Whether I agreed or not, Enkindel did 'x', and so, as part of Enkindel, those motivations were partly mine. Time to find out how best to reconcile what I want with this new set of information about the character. It's fun. Unfortunately it does make some sense for votes not to be 'set in stone', people do reconsider things, especially when it's highly contentious. But people also tend not to just stand in place gibbering to themselves as their psyches duke it out. What does winning a vote mean, if not that Enkindel has made a decision that he's going to act upon. Trying to immediately recast the vote is just weakening the entire voting premise. The option needs to be there, sure, but like I say, I wish there could be some sort of limitation. An event has to occur related to the vote before it can be reconsidered, otherwise why is Enkindel having second thoughts? I don't know if that would be too complicated a rule to be put in place though, or one anyone else would desire.
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# ? Mar 26, 2014 22:11 |
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Has any immediate revote even come close to winning? I really haven't experienced this as being a problem. Most recently the Indor thing I would say is Enki getting a new idea and changing his mind to that, which is quite normal.
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# ? Mar 26, 2014 22:17 |
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Wow, this certainly went somewhere. I never really felt that invested in Enkidel to begin with, but I don't think that switching to another viewpoint would help all that much. I guess I'm just going to stick around and see what happens, maybe vote if I feel like it. Once we start being able to do more than practice not-breathing and going on monster patrols maybe I'll join team . A
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# ? Mar 26, 2014 22:22 |
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Theglavwen posted:Of course though, my main concern in voting is typically to try and make a consistent character. I take previous votes, whether I agree with them or not, to be defining the character I'm playing as, so I craft my votes in ways that reflect that. I take previous votes as new sets of information about the character, just as any other information about the world would influence my votes, I can't ignore what decisions have been made. 'I'm in a character who believes such-and-such, how do I vote?'. Whether I agreed or not, Enkindel did 'x', and so, as part of Enkindel, those motivations were partly mine. Time to find out how best to reconcile what I want with this new set of information about the character. It's fun. I think you're on the right track with the solution. A sense of 'fair play' among even a small handful of posters should be enough to shut down the re-votes. Then Diog wouldn't need to do anything. It would probably help if people would be explicit that they're changing stances based on the just-decided issue. Otherwise, it's too easy to see a couple people casting a protest vote and assume that everyone is doing it.
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# ? Mar 26, 2014 22:24 |
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falcon2424 posted:It would probably help if people would be explicit that they're changing stances based on the just-decided issue. Otherwise, it's too easy to see a couple people casting a protest vote and assume that everyone is doing it. True, I imagine we've all been guilty from time to time of seeing a lot of posts from a minority of voters and assuming that somehow the thread has swayed and 'everyone's doing something. Then we get a bunch of knee-jerk reactions with people desperately voting to curb the 'massive' block of people voting to drown Naomi and eat Danal. Absum posted:Has any immediate revote even come close to winning? I really haven't experienced this as being a problem. Most recently the Indor thing I would say is Enki getting a new idea and changing his mind to that, which is quite normal. Eh, I suppose my issue is that it's often not 'getting a new idea'. Like with the Indor thing, it wasn't that something new struck Enkindel after he decided to cut off ties with her, the arguments put forward the second time around, to go deal with her personally, were the same that had been made the first time around (keeping in mind that I wanted to go deal with her personally, and lost that vote originally). That part of his mind had its say, and lost; Enkindel, as a character, disagreed with that part of his mind. Until suddenly he didn't, seconds later. Nothing new was actually introduced, it was just rephrased and rehashed until the people in the thread changed enough, either in person or in mind, to swing it the other way. Yeah, changing your mind is realistic, sometimes, but there has to be some limit. After all, people 'realistically' don't have the same amount of time to hash over things that we do in this thread, and just logistically, it seems to bog things down. Maybe it's preferable to be able to have Enkindel change his mind at the drop of a hat; I think giving a bit more weight to the decisions he's made and running with a more cohesive, if slightly more limited, character is more interesting.
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# ? Mar 26, 2014 22:33 |
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Theglavwen posted:Like with the Indor thing, it wasn't that something new struck Enkindel after he decided to cut off ties with her, the arguments put forward the second time around, to go deal with her personally, were the same that had been made the first time around (keeping in mind that I wanted to go deal with her personally, and lost that vote originally). Everyone keeps saying this, but I'm pretty sure the plan to haul stuff back on secret trips with Puabi wasn't proposed until the last vote. Several people then decided they'd rather have that than to completely stop dea kling with Indor. e: I understand why people might get frustrated if we go in circles, it's just I personally have rarely felt that way. I think once when we were still travelling to Zepath and a little nit with the sterilization thing. I feel that a lot of people are too impatient. Maybe I'm too used to serial updates with stories spanning over ten years? Absum fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Mar 26, 2014 |
# ? Mar 26, 2014 22:53 |
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Absum posted:Everyone keeps saying this, but I'm pretty sure the plan to haul stuff back on secret trips with Puabi wasn't proposed until the last vote. Several people then decided they'd rather have that than to completely stop dea kling with Indor. At least the one I'm thinking of is the decision to go back and personally speak with Indor at all, not the decision to make trips with Puabi. Personally I prefer the outcome we got, but on the initial vote, whether or not to go talk to her ourselves or to send Paebel to terminate the contract, a lot of people voted to send Paebel explicitly so we wouldn't talk to Indor and end up getting roped into further dealings with her, like what happened. Those people won, regardless of whether or not I agreed with them, and I think they probably have a right to feel miffed that the same vote was then immediately held again. They won, after all, and what does that mean other than that they get to have their way?
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# ? Mar 26, 2014 23:20 |
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A. I like Enkidel. I don't want him to die (especially stupidly). I want him to be strong, but I want him to have agency too. Things on my bucket list (which may conflict): - Get a wicked superbow - become a - Visit Seir - visit the kadmonim - learn not El-based magic - learn El-based magic - learn about Superdemons - kill a superdemon, thereby inadvertently becoming one -
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# ? Mar 26, 2014 23:23 |
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Theglavwen posted:At least the one I'm thinking of is the decision to go back and personally speak with Indor at all, not the decision to make trips with Puabi. Personally I prefer the outcome we got, but on the initial vote, whether or not to go talk to her ourselves or to send Paebel to terminate the contract, a lot of people voted to send Paebel explicitly so we wouldn't talk to Indor and end up getting roped into further dealings with her, like what happened. Those people won, regardless of whether or not I agreed with them, and I think they probably have a right to feel miffed that the same vote was then immediately held again. They won, after all, and what does that mean other than that they get to have their way? Hm yeah I didn't think of that. You're right and I guess I just didn't care personally as I don't think I even voted. e: Best solution I can think of is relying on Diog to decide when a vote can be reopened but I don't think he likes that.
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# ? Mar 26, 2014 23:28 |
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hiddenriverninja posted:A. I like Enkidel. I don't want him to die (especially stupidly). I want him to be strong, but I want him to have agency too. Nice to see you, goon with similar goals! All those things are also on my list (maybe not becoming a superdemon), though I've got a few more.
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# ? Mar 26, 2014 23:40 |
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hiddenriverninja posted:A. I like Enkidel. I don't want him to die (especially stupidly). I want him to be strong, but I want him to have agency too. I am basically behind all this as well, which is why I voted B.
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# ? Mar 26, 2014 23:41 |
There has been enough expressed support to form a second team / thread. You are now an adult. Most of the game you were a child, you are gaining increasing amounts of control over your life. A question to the those who voted B. How would you feel about continuing as it is for a little while longer and reassessing the issue after a time skip or two? Maybe a few weeks or a month at most? Reading what you all wrote today I am not sure you are as far apart as I initially thought, though the issue of people who don't feel "invested" in Enkidel voting his fate remains a concern. One thing I see from a lot of Team B is that you want adventure and to explore. So does, broadly, Team A, though they are not willing to sacrafice existing relationships to ge there faster however. I think there is a strong chance you will get it if that is what you want. The vote remains open, I value your opinions. Please share them.
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# ? Mar 26, 2014 23:45 |
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I'm going to vote B. I am really invested in Enkidel, but I feel like I have no real power to influence him as a voter any more because of the majority of people playing it safe/die-hard El/ties to Zepath. Slowly Enkidel is becoming less of a character I want to play. I am resistant to leave since there is a lot of sunk time invested, but I'd be lying if I said that I haven't thought about just stopping reading the thread anyway because of how bogged down things get sometimes. I agree that debate can be interesting but I think that when what is supposed to be a fun internet game ends up taking a half hour a day or more sometimes to read and catch up on, it's become too much. I can't even imagine how much time some people might spend between the thread and IRC but it's got to be a lot. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, people can spend their time how they want to, but personally I can't justify to myself sinking that much time into an internet thread and I think that my feeling is representative of another divide in the voting population. It gets difficult to get motivated to vote when you feel pushed to the periphery just because you haven't read every word in everyone's post, or kept up on the theory-crafting going on in a seperate IRC room. I know Dio always posts the relevant bits from IRC in the thread but it's still obvious that relationships/politics bleed over (and that these relationships and politics should even exist in a CYOA to the extent they do seems silly sometimes.) So even though I am invested in Endikel I think what will make me happiest as a player is to jump ship to a thread with a fresh start. It might eventually end up in the same mess but from reading other B voters rationales I see a lot I agree with beyond what I've just written here, as well. Crudus fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Mar 26, 2014 |
# ? Mar 26, 2014 23:46 |
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Going with A.
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# ? Mar 26, 2014 23:51 |
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A
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# ? Mar 26, 2014 23:54 |
hiddenriverninja posted:A. I like Enkidel. I don't want him to die (especially stupidly). I want him to be strong, but I want him to have agency too. - wield superclub with ease - learn the secret of the flute - the superdemon is Asherah
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# ? Mar 26, 2014 23:57 |
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Diogines posted:I value your opinions. Please share them. Eh, I'm just on cruise control at this point. It was fun trying to decipher the underlying mythology of everything and see if there was any Secret to Badassitude to be uncovered, but now it just seems like a slog through micromanagement, arguments, theories I don't agree with, and a neverending cascade of characters that undermine everything I think I've figured out. Each new revelation, rather than building up a mythology, leaves me feeling more and more like a fish out of water to the point where... well, who the El cares anymore? We blindly latch onto the newest available source of wisdom, listen to them as they tell us they know The Real Faith without offering anything concrete, get betrayed when it turns out yet another layer of mythology/faith is false, and occasionally toss in a dash of El for confusion. I'm probably wrong, but sometimes it feels the only safe option is to ignore the fact that Enki is Mighty and just... go out hunting some more while becoming a merchant or something. *edit* And by safe I mean not getting ourselves killed. Seemingly everyone we meet is uber-powerful/influential, most don't seem to take blasphemy lightly, yet there's some big underlying thread tying the faiths together that no one will share or are too dangerous to ally with. A Terrible Person fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Mar 27, 2014 |
# ? Mar 27, 2014 00:03 |
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I don't vote often as I'm always behind, being in a different time zone. But I've followed this since the beginning (and the last game too). I check the thread every day. Voting A to show support for Enkidel, I'll continue to follow and occasionally vote. I have never been bored with this game. Diog you do an amazing job!
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# ? Mar 27, 2014 00:04 |
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Diogines posted:There has been enough expressed support to form a second team / thread. You are now an adult. Most of the game you were a child, you are gaining increasing amounts of control over your life. A question to the those who voted B. How would you feel about continuing as it is for a little while longer and reassessing the issue after a time skip or two? Maybe a few weeks or a month at most? If you think another thread won't bog you down or be a big pain then I think you should do that. Even though we broadly want to adventure there is still a a large divide between people who want to play it safe in regards to being faithful to El and Tudiya's wishes, and those who want to explore other alternatives, at least from my perspective.
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# ? Mar 27, 2014 00:05 |
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I haven't voted often in this thread, but I am going to vote A.
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# ? Mar 27, 2014 00:08 |
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Diogines posted:One thing I see from a lot of Team B is that you want adventure and to explore. So does, broadly, Team A, though they are not willing to sacrafice existing relationships to ge there faster however. I think there is a strong chance you will get it if that is what you want. Even though I've sided with Team A, I think the "New Team Now" (or a month from now, whenever you get it off the ground) idea would be for the best. Maybe anyone who Voted "A" once this is voted closed is locked in, but give "B" voters a redemption period to change their minds? Seems even with more time to decide, I think a lot of "B"s have made up their mind. Maybe one or two will stick it out but I dont think many will who have already decided. If anything, you've given them too good an opportunity to pass up (hell I almost jumped ship and I still think Enkidel is OK with me) Edit: I must admit the idea of two separate protagonist in the same world sounds awesome - I only ever lurked for it, but anyone who remembers YLS in Space from back in the day on the forums might remember there was apparently another team somewhere else making decisions for another character - the idea made the game a lot more interesting knowing someone else was out there manuvering. Task Manager fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Mar 27, 2014 |
# ? Mar 27, 2014 00:15 |
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Do I get auto sorted to team A if I don't vote?
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# ? Mar 27, 2014 00:19 |
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I wonder if Team B gets to be Lullaya. edit: I forgot to add to my list that I'm on Team Family Unit with Naomi and Snarls. hiddenriverninja fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Mar 27, 2014 |
# ? Mar 27, 2014 00:26 |
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Diogines posted:I value your opinions. Please share them. My opinions? Let's start with: You are an amazing GM, a realization I had when (during Paradise Lost's hiatus in the forest) I read through Rivers. I can't tell whether or not the current matter at hand is a wise idea, because I don't know the extent of your plans. But I want you to know this: You know how you said some reactions to the game discourage you, make you want to walk away from it all? I get tired, quickly, of the acrimonious bickering which has occasionally engulfed this thread, and of speculation that seems to retread barren ground solely for the purpose of kicking up dust. Every time there's a real update, every time I get a glimpse into the world of Ur, all that goes away and I focus only on what you've written, and it's great. You have my sympathies, when it comes to being discouraged, my thanks and gratitude for the gift of this game, and my mild sense of awe at the level of effort and cat-herding this endeavor must demand. Those are my opinions. Oh, I guess I should say something about Enkidel. Slaan and paragon1 both said things I agree with: Exploring and adventuring seem fun, and consistent with being a model citizen of Zepath; back and forth voting is tiresome, though happily my preferred choice was the eventual outcome (re: Indor, Puabi), but I don't see any clear solution. Given that it'd be a month or two before Thread B could come online, using that time as a reassessment and cooling-off period, with an attempt to get Enkidel's story moving more, sounds very reasonable. My concern with the idea as a whole is that we, of Team Invested In Enkidel, might lose some interesting voices, but I recognize that it's most appropriate for someone tired of Enkidel to stop playing Enkidel, however that happens (be it dropping out of the game or moving to a separate character). edit: hiddenriverninja posted:I wonder if Team B gets to be Lullaya.
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# ? Mar 27, 2014 00:26 |
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Voting A: Enkidel is a swell guy, even if he does eat rocks.
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# ? Mar 27, 2014 00:39 |
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jazzyhattrick posted:Voting A: Enkidel is a swell guy, even if he does eat rocks. Don't join the movement of a man who can't use his bowels!
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# ? Mar 27, 2014 00:45 |
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B I'm invested in Enkidel, but If I have to pick I prefer team anti-authority to team consequences.
Numeron fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Mar 27, 2014 |
# ? Mar 27, 2014 00:46 |
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Voting A.
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# ? Mar 27, 2014 00:52 |
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Theglavwen posted:At least the one I'm thinking of is the decision to go back and personally speak with Indor at all, not the decision to make trips with Puabi. Personally I prefer the outcome we got, but on the initial vote, whether or not to go talk to her ourselves or to send Paebel to terminate the contract, a lot of people voted to send Paebel explicitly so we wouldn't talk to Indor and end up getting roped into further dealings with her, like what happened. Those people won, regardless of whether or not I agreed with them, and I think they probably have a right to feel miffed that the same vote was then immediately held again. They won, after all, and what does that mean other than that they get to have their way? Yeh, I get confused about that and that vote in particular is a good example. Lanky Coconut Tree posted:This is more or less how I feel. I get the majority of Team boring posters all just want to play a safe game, but I really think throwing our bets in with Zepath, Ish and everyone else here and hoping to learn enough about this universe is not going to work out.
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# ? Mar 27, 2014 01:12 |
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I did a vote count because why not. Pet the baby pygmy hippo to see the spreadsheet. While the vote count had a majority for A, it turns out most of those voters are people I don't recognize. A lot of people who almost never vote chimed in on this one.
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# ? Mar 27, 2014 01:14 |
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HBar posted:A. This, plus Don't forget learn the secret of our sandals.
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# ? Mar 27, 2014 01:25 |
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# ? Mar 28, 2024 13:53 |
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Well, this escAlated quickly.
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# ? Mar 27, 2014 01:36 |