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Valeyard
Mar 30, 2012


Grimey Drawer
i just wanted to join in the fun, hold on and lemme find a pdf that opens up with a broken font

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Last Chance
Dec 31, 2004

lmao good linux stuff guys

Suspicious Dish
Sep 24, 2011

2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro
Fun Shoe
Thanks!

Berkshire Hunts
Nov 5, 2009
gnome3 rules and fedora is a lot better than it used to be. i like the selinux rule helper thing they have now, that's aces. thanks, suspicious dish!

ShadowHawk
Jun 25, 2000

CERTIFIED PRE OWNED TESLA OWNER

Suspicious Dish posted:

Tray icons are bad and pretty much everybody is looking forward to getting rid of them.
It's me, I'm the guy who saved XEmbed tray icon support in Unity (to make Wine apps work since some Windows programs rely on their systray for core functionality).

They had the good sense to ban everything that isn't Wine from the systray though :)

cowboy beepboop
Feb 24, 2001

updating to gnome 3.12. hail satan.

edit this is nice. I miss the one extension I had installed though, dash-to-dock or whatever it was called

cowboy beepboop fucked around with this message at 08:24 on Mar 27, 2014

spankmeister
Jun 15, 2008






i'm running cinnamon, i just can't part with that gnome 2 like interface.

CUNT AND PASTE
Aug 15, 2004

~see my amazon wishlistu~

spankmeister posted:

i'm running cinnamon, i just can't part with that gnome 2 like interface.

you'll join this decade sometime, i'm sure

spankmeister
Jun 15, 2008






oval office AND PASTE posted:

you'll join this decade sometime, i'm sure

Maybe in 2020.

Suspicious Dish
Sep 24, 2011

2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro
Fun Shoe

Berkshire Hunts posted:

gnome3 rules and fedora is a lot better than it used to be. i like the selinux rule helper thing they have now, that's aces. thanks, suspicious dish!

the whose whats now?

Suspicious Dish
Sep 24, 2011

2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro
Fun Shoe

ShadowHawk posted:

It's me, I'm the guy who saved XEmbed tray icon support in Unity (to make Wine apps work since some Windows programs rely on their systray for core functionality).

They had the good sense to ban everything that isn't Wine from the systray though :)

I'm actually curious: are system tray icons in Windows just the exact same thing? A window you can draw onto by receiving WM_PAINT messages and such? Because if so, yeah, we need to figure out what to do with Wine, because XEmbed is the only way you can emulate something like that.

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
create a tiny little window called GAY BABY JAIL for windows notification area icons

Smythe
Oct 12, 2003
gnome3 ftw but on my ultimate pos work cimputer i use xubuntu because it doesnt lag so bad am i doing this right?

Smythe fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Mar 27, 2014

Berkshire Hunts
Nov 5, 2009

Suspicious Dish posted:

the whose whats now?

the little notification thing that pops up when selinux breaks something that says "We notice selinux broke that thing you're trying to do. if you're sure you want to do it anyway here's the selinux rule you need to set so it doesnt break in the future"

Suspicious Dish
Sep 24, 2011

2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro
Fun Shoe
Ah yes the "please run this magic command in a scary text box as root" notification.

Yes that's one of the great user interface design decisions to make your computer more friendly and approachable than ever.

People are mad because we flat out stole it from iOS.

Suspicious Dish
Sep 24, 2011

2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro
Fun Shoe
If you're curious that notification / sealert was invented by a different team. They don't listen to a drat thing we tell them in terms of user interface design.

We wrote up like a 30 page Google Doc with detailed user experience studies showing them why their UI sucks, and suggestions to improve.

Their response was that they shouldn't make it more user-friendly: idiots who don't know what the terminal is shouldn't be running Linux in the first place.

Suspicious Dish
Sep 24, 2011

2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro
Fun Shoe
That was an actual thing that a coworker said to my face.

the infighting is coming from within the red hat

Last Chance
Dec 31, 2004

Suspicious Dish posted:

Their response was that they shouldn't make it more user-friendly: idiots who don't know what the terminal is shouldn't be running Linux in the first place.

this is true though. in fact its better not to use linux at all

Suspicious Dish
Sep 24, 2011

2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro
Fun Shoe
"real people use MS-DOS. gently caress this windows poo poo. abort/retry/fail for life" - my coworker

ShadowHawk
Jun 25, 2000

CERTIFIED PRE OWNED TESLA OWNER

Mr Dog posted:

create a tiny little window called GAY BABY JAIL for windows notification area icons
Wine will literally do this (well, it's named "Wine Systray") if it can't find a suitable systray equivalent on the running desktop. It looks as dumb as it sounds.

Suspicious Dish
Sep 24, 2011

2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro
Fun Shoe
I mean, it doesn't have any other option, so I don't blame it.

ShadowHawk
Jun 25, 2000

CERTIFIED PRE OWNED TESLA OWNER

Suspicious Dish posted:

I'm actually curious: are system tray icons in Windows just the exact same thing? A window you can draw onto by receiving WM_PAINT messages and such? Because if so, yeah, we need to figure out what to do with Wine, because XEmbed is the only way you can emulate something like that.
Systray things in Windows can do all of the following:

1) Behave differently on left and right click
2) Draw something that's not a menu
3) Draw non-standard (or even non-rectangular) bits of interface on the screen without bringing up an actual window
4) Be a service launched at login
5) Be the only way to quit (or sometimes interact with at all) a running application
6) Have their own color and theming scheme independent of the system


So, yeah, you need XEmbed "legacy" support for Wine. And maybe lovely Java apps.

Perplx
Jun 26, 2004


Best viewed on Orgasma Plasma
Lipstick Apathy

Suspicious Dish posted:


Their response was that they shouldn't make it more user-friendly: idiots who don't know what the terminal is shouldn't be running Linux in the first place.

i sort of agree, if you don't know what a terminal is selinux is overkill

Suspicious Dish
Sep 24, 2011

2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro
Fun Shoe
Which is of course why we enable it by default on desktop machines.

The SELinux team thinks that 1) it should be enabled everywhere, 2) everybody should learn to use it, and if you can't, you're a loving grandma who doesn't deserve to use Linux.

Instead, she buys a Chromebook or an Android machine.

Suspicious Dish
Sep 24, 2011

2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro
Fun Shoe
IT'S FUNNY HOW BOTH ANDROID AND CHROMEOS HAVE LINUX AND SELINUX AND DON'T REQUIRE OBSCURE TERMINAL COMMANDS TO MAKE poo poo HAPPEN

ShadowHawk
Jun 25, 2000

CERTIFIED PRE OWNED TESLA OWNER

Suspicious Dish posted:

That was an actual thing that a coworker said to my face.

the infighting is coming from within the red hat
hey maybe problems like this kinda stem from how you organize your project around distinct roles and responsibilities rather than making stuff like usability and security something everyone should be thinking of


In Ubuntu we don't strictly have "the UX guys" or "the Security guys". Especially when that's tied to employment, you end up with people believing that they have their own little silo to protect. Worse, sometimes people think that something within another silo is somebody else's problem -- even benignly not wanting to step on other's toes.

Instead, everyone with upload rights is just a developer and can upload any package to Universe or to Main+Universe. Sure, there are people who work on particular things (eg me and Wine), and there are people who even get paid to work on certain particular things (eg most Canonical staff), but part of our process and organization makes everything feel like a shared burden.

Suspicious Dish
Sep 24, 2011

2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro
Fun Shoe
We'd love security and usability to be things everybody should be thinking of. Keep in mind, we aren't UX experts or a UX team in general. All of us are engineers who work closely with designers, and we taught ourselves to be thinking about usability all the time.

Keep in mind, our team has been pushing hard to have the Fedora, Developer Experience, and Core Desktop teams merged.

We even made a bit of progress towards that. My former boss quit in an attempt to reorg the whole group of Platform Engineering. Unfortunately, right at the same time my boss quit, his boss quit.

It didn't go off as planned.

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005

Suspicious Dish posted:

Ah yes the "please run this magic command in a scary text box as root" notification.

Yes that's one of the great user interface design decisions to make your computer more friendly and approachable than ever.

People are mad because we flat out stole it from iOS.

kindly realize that the desktop wars are over, fedora and gnome and whatnot did in fact *not* win, ios comparisons are not relevant, and none of the users you actually ended up with will go "oh, scary", though possibly "hmm, inconvenient"

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene
the desktop wars are over, kde won

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
Slippery Tilde
only until the display server wars heat up

(you can try to argue that x11 is irreplaceable but then systemd migration shows that you're wrong & foolish)

Gazpacho fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Mar 27, 2014

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost

Suspicious Dish posted:

That was an actual thing that a coworker said to my face.

the infighting is coming from within the red hat

that... sounds quite amazingly dysfunctional, between that and yum being a steaming pile that never gets fixed/replaced because it's somebody's baby. maybe you should make a passive-aggressive blog post about it, that seems to be how things get fixed in linux land

(i wish i was being sarcastic)

Shaggar
Apr 26, 2006
whats wrong w/ yum?

Symbolic Butt
Mar 22, 2009

(_!_)
Buglord
suspicious dish ranted a few times already about yum but I feel the need confirm one of the points: it's ridiculously slow.

Shaggar
Apr 26, 2006
oh yeah the index updates do take forever

Zam Wesell
Mar 22, 2009

[Zam is suddenly shot in the neck by a toxic dart; Anakin and Obi-Wan see a "rocket-man" take off and fly away, and Zam dies]
just installed Fedora on a laptop I had laying around that was usually running win7/8 (poorly).

the installation was fast and smooth, sound works out of the box, mouse gestures work out of the box, FN-shortcuts on my keyboard work out of the box

i am amazed.

also, it's way faster on this than in windows.

Suspicious Dish
Sep 24, 2011

2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro
Fun Shoe

Granbar posted:

just installed Fedora on a laptop I had laying around that was usually running win7/8 (poorly).

the installation was fast and smooth, sound works out of the box, mouse gestures work out of the box, FN-shortcuts on my keyboard work out of the box

i am amazed.

also, it's way faster on this than in windows.

Thanks. This sort of stuff means a lot to me.

Suspicious Dish
Sep 24, 2011

2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro
Fun Shoe

Mr Dog posted:

that... sounds quite amazingly dysfunctional, between that and yum being a steaming pile that never gets fixed/replaced because it's somebody's baby. maybe you should make a passive-aggressive blog post about it, that seems to be how things get fixed in linux land

(i wish i was being sarcastic)

Yeah. Think of a typical Linux engineer. Opinionated, has a long beard, loves using "Crapple" and "Micro$oft". "GREEN IS MY PEPPER" is the best joke the world has ever heard.

Now build a company out of 5,000 of them.

It's surprising how well the dnf project is going.

DONT THREAD ON ME
Oct 1, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo
Floss Finder

Granbar posted:

just installed Fedora on a laptop I had laying around that was usually running win7/8 (poorly).

the installation was fast and smooth, sound works out of the box, mouse gestures work out of the box, FN-shortcuts on my keyboard work out of the box

i am amazed.

also, it's way faster on this than in windows.

i'm glad linux is finally better than windows. it's amazing what a bunch of talented programmers can do when they're dedicated to disrupting proprietary software. great job, microsoft devs!

Suspicious Dish
Sep 24, 2011

2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro
Fun Shoe
I mean, I've talked about why I think packaging is fundamentally broken as a software distribution model in this thread before. I'm not going to yammer on about it anymore.

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Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Suspicious Dish posted:

Yeah. Think of a typical Linux engineer. Opinionated, has a long beard, loves using "Crapple" and "Micro$oft". "GREEN IS MY PEPPER" is the best joke the world has ever heard.

Now build a company out of 5,000 of them.

tbf even in the "good old days" i am pretty sure this is what Sun looked like, too

you can't have unix without beardos

(if you try, you end up with osx. nobody deserves that)

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