grognards.txt - sandbox gamers are the John Galts of the RPG world

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > grognards.txt - sandbox gamers are the John Galts of the RPG world

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canti32: Apr 27, 2008; Fearless in Devotion, Rising to Promotion,
Rising to the ranks of mighty heroes, Fighting foes in every land,

History only tells a story, We are to see your glory,
Stand aside the Reds are coming,
WREXHAM IS THE NAME

^What an rear end in a top hat. "I decided retroactively that your character lost a hand. Lose a poo poo ton of money and pay a recurring penalty or suffer."

quote:

Whose Story Is It, Anyway?
Mike Mearls

. http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20140317 .

Quote:
We want to add inspiring, interesting stories to our monsters. But at the same time, we want to make it so that you aren't forced to use the details we create unless they make sense for your game.

~~

This approach makes creatures more cohesive and grounds them in a distinct identity.

confused

quote:

For instance, we expanded on hags to make them monstrous fey with a whole network of other creatures that serve or ally with them. They create animated scarecrows, use a horrid curse to turn those who betray them into redcaps, and hire mercenary yugoloths when dealing with truly formidable enemies.

So you aren't forcing people to use anything, but you are forcing them to deal with stupid rear end connections that James Wyatt thinks are cute for his retarded bible-thumping children?

I love how they fail, or always take the wrong thing from something...

quote:

Taking a cue from the 4th Edition Monster Vault and the 2nd Edition Monstrous Compendium, we're providing more information on each monster's personality, ecology, goals, and place in the world.

How many monsters have a clusterfuck of things like hags, ettercaps, pixie parts, scarecrows, etc? I don't know poo poo dealing with the 4e product, but here is a reason things WORKED in 2E.

quote:

CLIMATE/TERRAIN defines where the creature is most often found. Climates include arctic, sub-arctic, temperate, and tropical. Typical terrain includes plain/scrub, forest, rough/hill, mountain, swamp, and desert. In some cases, a range is given; for instance, "cold" implies arctic, sub-arctic, and colder temperate regions.

Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.

monsters have, even the not so smart ones; a certain habitat they live in. That is it, all you need. How they mingle with each other and poo poo should be either:

a) something the DM decides
b) something from a published setting or adventure

There is NO reason to give excess poo poo in the core generic game to get in the way or fuel the rules lawyers to force the game to say ettercaps are masturbating your hags with pixie parts. if there is no inspiration to use the ettercap without having it be a herder of giant spiders that fucks hags, then maybe the monster jsut isnt that interesting to begin with, not that you need to add poo poo to make it so. for those that already find it interesting, then adding the ettercap/spider/hag orgy is likely to uninspire them, unless it is the "D&D with porn stars" crowd.

yes, 2e had society, but it was how the orc society was made up, the orc entry didnt go nto detail about other races because that is the OPEN part of an RPG that allows DMs to be able to decide how their world works.

this "story" poo poo shouldn't exist in the core, but is what settings or special cases in published adventures are for.

As long as you loving twats keep trying to BRAND D&D you will never be able to make it, because the point of it is so that is NOT Gary's Game, NOT Dave's game, NOT Zeb's game, NOT Steve's game, NOT Frank's game, NOT Tweet's game, NOT Noonan's game, NOT Mearls' game, Not Wyatt's game; but the people-in-that-small-group-that-are-playing-it's game. This story poo poo fails on the concept of "get older edition players back" as they want an OPEN game, not a WoD clone that is forced into one world view.

The reason WoD was never as big as D&D is because everyone didn't want the lovely story attached to it, same with Shadowrun, Rifts, etc. trying to emulate failures like these jsut to be "less generic and more branded" are only going to cause you to emulate their failure as well (see 4th edition D&D). When you finally embrace the strength that D&D had that was being open and allowing for ANY story from those who enjoy it, then you will again be able to understand D&D. Those people unable to be inspired by the fantasy genre and just having a little bit about orcs, without having anything about dragons or crocodiles mentioned in the orc monster entry will find something else to do, as the odds are they already are doing multiple game systems and not loyal to any ONE enough to design your market around them.

Whose story is it? HASBROs and they can keep it. summon scarecrows, really? D&D monsters have all turned into MtG thallids and just spawn more because it works in D&D? Seriously, go make a MtGRPG and get the gently caress out of D&D since you don't understand it. EVERYTHING WotC has tried to do with D&D would have better served an MtGRPG anyway and those people would have enjoyed it more with the "story" of Phyrexia, Mishra, Urza, Jayce, etc.

Someone needs to take the HASBRO execs, WotC execs, WotC designers from the past decade al together bend them over and give them a taste of what they have done to D&D, by branding them with a hot iron with the D&D logo. See if then they could understand how this concept of "branding" probably isnt how to make a good game, or actually how to make ANYTHING because you have n reason to be making it other than just to use the logo.

DDN cross-stitch patterns and wood-burning kits coming this fall from HA$BRO and Wot�!

Yes, those money grubbers WotC and Hasbro, complete opposites of TSR. Funny that he mentioned the wood burning kits...

# ? Mar 21, 2014 19:35

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# ? Apr 27, 2024 18:31

Mewnie: Apr 2, 2011; clean dogge
is a
happy dogge

Halloween Jack posted:

To me, a great deal of the game IS randomness; just as a great deal of the world is.

I've been playing PF at a meetup thing lately and there's one guy that's like this-

Real life grog said this: "You roll all of your stats once and take what's given to you. I don't believe in point buy. That's too fair. Real life isn't fair, why should games be too?"

Also, another player wanted to rise up out of the water and shoot their bow at some dude, like Rambo :black101:

and this guy had to pipe up about how "But water would ruin the bowstring and thus render the bow useless." :goonsay:

Thankfully he isn't the GM.

Not sure if this is more fitting for cat-piss or not. But experiencing grog in person is something else, I tell you what.

# ? Mar 21, 2014 20:13

Mendrian: Jan 6, 2013

^^^
In my limited experience, every time somebody says that they want the 'realism' that rolled-only brings, they immediately become a statistical anomaly or believe that they possess special dice-controlling powers. "I believe in the cruel unfairness of rolled stats. Also, check it, two 18's. :smug:

"

Grog tax:

quote:

Hey, I'm updating my game to V:TR finally.

However, there's a couple of things I'm definitely needing to change for our game. I don't mind most of the changes. The Gangrel being essentially the Brujah, the Mekhet taking the place of a half-dozen different clans, and so on are all tolerable to me. However, I need me some Malkavians in my clan and I have no interest in the Ventrue version. I've kicked people out of my group for going the exact wrong direction by trying to play the Malkavians as more realistically mentally ill. As a person who has worked with them in real life, that's pretty much an invitation to ruin a fun game and also shows you have not a capacity for fun in your body.

# ? Mar 21, 2014 22:31

Maxwell Lord: Dec 12, 2008; I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.; Grimey Drawer

Mike Mearls' Twitter posted:

@mikemearls Thrown items don't return, but probably should. Don't have specific update on SA damage yet

FFSAA posted:

No, they shouldn't. If I want to play a warrior princess, I'll play a different game. If I'm forced to play a warrior princess, I'll DEFINITELY play a different game.

Azure Shade posted:

The question was about thrown magical weapons. Not mundane weapons.

FFSAA posted:

It doesn't matter. Making anything magical have the power of flight or teleportation and the intelligence to get itself back to your hand is immersion breaking. Only the most potent magic items have traditionally had such powerful abilities. Giving it out to everything is naively ignoreing the fact that teleportation and flight are really really awesome and also begs the question, why the heck can't it just teleport into the enemy, why do I have to throw it anyway?

From the Wizards forums naturally.

# ? Mar 21, 2014 22:48

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

I... What.

Raneth posted:

Most fantasy campaign settings, when they bring up the issue of slavery at all (which is typically only as an offhand mention in the descriptions of evil races like drow and goblins), use the field slave/serfdom model of slavery where the slaves are are treated horrifically, being regularly worked to death, casually beaten, raped or murdered.

The institution of slavery has existed throughout history all over the world and in many different forms. Most pertinent to this discussion, however, is the institution of slavery in the Roman Empire and Ancient Egypt. In that context, HOUSE slaves (not FIELD slaves, which were treated the same way they were in the American South) actually had rights and were more akin to second-class citizens than what most modern persons would consider slaves. Being a house slave would actually give a person a better standard of living than many peasants and many foreigners in the Empire willingly (and pragmatically) sold themselves into slavery because it would give them an economic advantage until they became free men.

AFAIK fantasy campaign settings only ever use the field slave as a model and completely ignore the far less horrific house slave model, or even give field slaves a more humane treatment like that of house slaves. It would quite refreshing if the otherwise evil proud warrior race considered it morally wrong to mistreat a slave because they aren't worthy opponents and the paladin has an actual moral dilemma about freeing the slaves because many of them don't want to be freed due to their better standard of living as opposed to being free peasants.

What say you?

Raneth posted:

Thank you for your input. I've adjusted the OP to compensate.

Yes, I am looking for a model of society that treats slaves more humanely in order to challenge the philosophical and moral beliefs of the typical liberal democrat adventurer.

Given the widespread prevalence of magic in a typical fantasy setting (and all traditional economic models break down when you can mass produce food and any substance other than a few now-worthless precious metals), there's no reason why the soul-crushing field work can't be performed by mass-produced golems, and slaves would instead be performing service work (e.g. maintenance, cashiers, clerks) or being used as symbols of prestige (e.g. maids, butlers, bodyguards, concubines, etc).

If they refuse to work, you don't beat them, you use a spell that gives them a high whenever they follow orders. Given a choice between water and an electrode wired into their brains that induces pleasure, all living creatures will pleasure themselves until they die.

Oh god he keeps going

Raneth posted:

Frank Trollman, Pun-Pun and plenty of others have pretty much debunked that type of thinking as short-sightedly unrealistic. In most non-D&D-derived fantasy fiction, any wizard above 6th-level is the in-universe equivalent of Superman. In most D&D fantasy campaign settings you have hundreds of 20th-level wizards (who are the equivalent of Doctor Fate, Doctor Strange, and Kriemhild Gretchen in terms of sheer world-altering/destroying power) running around one planet and yet the technology level and standard of living stays exactly the same for tens of thousands of years. Fantasy campaign settings are kept in artificial, sanitized renaissance fair conditions, rather than becoming a magical version of Transhuman Space/Eclipse Phase/AT-43/Warhammer 40,000 on steroids, solely because of author fiat.

dwarf74 fucked around with this message at 04:32 on Mar 22, 2014

# ? Mar 22, 2014 04:25

Quadratic_Wizard: Jun 7, 2011

Lots more grog related to the fact that whether or not dragons can be beaten by 100 peasants or not.

quote:

i'm cross posting this from the tg grognards.txt thread as evidence that 5e is poo poo:
can you loving believe this. like, fine, if they have to poo poo on fighters, at least it's as per tradition, but THIS

quote:

Why wouldn't the dragon kill like, thirty, and then fly away, and come back a month later and kill another thirty?

Why would the dragon fly into a circle of longbowmen?

quote:

i guess it WOULD kill like thirty and fly away, because it LOSES to a mob of 100 level 1 commoners with lovely bows, because 5e's rules are poo poo

quote:

Why doesn't it have DR. Like, every dragon since Smaug had DR. What the gently caress 5e.

Of course, I love the brain damage that thinks an ancient evil creature will just sit there while the villagers execute their cunning plan of "encircle and shoot"

It's like a WWII grog saying "well, if the B-25 lands an infantry company could totally take it out"

quote:

yeah i remember smaug carefully kiting his enemies instead of just rampaging around invincibly. this is loving win

quote:

Dungeons and Dragons Next: The dragons suck. The dungeons are pretty lovely, too

# ? Mar 22, 2014 19:27

The Lore Bear: Jan 21, 2014; I don't know what to put here. Guys? GUYS?!

For me, the "ho-hum" of 13th Age is the world. It feels like it was just a map that they stuck in the front of the book. The worlds I've most connected to throughout the years have been the ones that made an internal sense. Oddly enough, Classic Greyhawk, Talslanta and The Empire of the Petal Throne all had degrees of verisimilitude that are very rare. I'm not sure what it was about Faerun that I found so off putting, but it put mt off years ago and the impression stuck. The original Kendar Thief may have been the real problem, but I never connected with the setting at all. The Pathfinder setting I know almost nothing about, despite tbat being the ruleset I'm most familiar with. I use my own world based extremely loosely on the European colonization of North America - the map looks vaguely like North America and colonial powers from across an ocean are involved, but that's about it.

# ? Mar 22, 2014 20:10

Mormon Star Wars: Aug 13, 2005; It's a minotaur race...

Sigh.

Rambling bile incoming.

---

I hate the changes to the Taint. I hate the Spider as a great clan. I hate the fiction and plot armour required to make the Spider a great clan. I hate the current representation of the Spider in the fiction. I hate that every other clan is just so accepting of them being a great clan at all in the fiction. I hate that the Spider are apparently presented as real meaningful military threats to the other clans despite their tenuous existence by the time they were legitimised. I hate that the Spider were the solution to the problems in the CE arc despite having the Scorpion supposedly with a cunning plan of their own to deal with the problem with the aid of 3 other clans all working together (those being the experts on the Shadowlands and monster fighting, the most powerful military in rokugan and the second most powerful military in rokugan). I hate that making a deal with the loving devil was the solution rather than the honour and steel of rokugani being the solution.

So...yeah.

I have a biased viewpoint.

Bearing that in mind.

The aims of the Spider clan are to destroy Bushido and Honour and place themselves as head of a Shourido dominated 'new Rokugan' with them in charge.

As we know Rokugani politics and governance and culture means that small things build up over time again and again to lead to big things. Getting the right person to owe you a favour or having a chance to speak to someone important can be all that's needed to propogate something huge. Moves made dozens of generations ago can kindle war right now.

Bearing that in mind ANY success for the Spider clan is an assault upon Rokugan itself. Susumu Kaneya is allowed into the court of a minor local lord? Victory for the Spider. In a decade he may have managed to convince the new guard captain to be 'late' to his post one day allowing in someone unexpected. That unexpected guest then leaves with additional information they acquired through their vile methods. This information a further decade later leads to the transfer of ownership of a new village to the Spider which in turn...etc.

They infiltrated and almost annihilated the Sparrow clan. Now the Spider in the Sparrow lands have converted to become the 'new Sparrow'. Screw that. As a fan of the Sparrow clan I am now supposed to accept these dishonourable infiltrators who sneak in and hollow my clan out - sending true Sparrow off to foreign lands and posts to die alone - and then betray their lord to switch sides to some new Spider-Sparrow hybrid clan that has the balls to call itself the Sparrow clan? No. No I don't accept that. The Sparrow clan is now some indeterminate number of individuals sent away from their home and now wandering the rest of Rokugan from something like 30 years ago.

Does that Crane at court think they can use the Spider as a tool in their plans and so favours them briefly for a season? Victory for the Spider. That is an assault upon Rokugan itself. Oh it's a tiny thing, tiny and insignificant in the grand scheme. But a ton of rice falling on you is the same weight as a ton of bricks.

But the fiction presents the Spider as actually welcome in court settings. People go to them to ask about stuff. Their opinions are valued. They aren't being proactively wiped off the loving map. They use magical WMDs to kill thousands of samurai of other clans and some glib remarks in court make it all ok in the eyes of official Imperial authority.

They have samurai who PROACTIVELY ACCEPT THE TAINT EVEN NOW and the other clans know this and LET THEM DO IT WITHOUT COMMENT.

They have fictions where people go off and build shrines and temples to the DARK FORTUNES and people are apparently ok with that. What!?

That the Spider exist as a thing is fine. As a faction giving a face to the Shadowlands (not that I agree that's a good thing either...) fine. That they are an accepted Great Clan? Hell no.

Spider MONKS? Yep. Cool. A non-Tainted group who have a differing philosophy within the already philosophically diverse Brotherhood? That's cool. Wandering and teaching of the virtues of Shourido and the way of strength and such? Nice, new twists and fun.

Spider Clan as a a Great Clan?

Nope.

# ? Mar 23, 2014 02:19

Exrandu: Jan 31, 2014; "Things need not have happened to be true."

Self-deleted for shameful grognard shaming.

Exrandu fucked around with this message at 06:59 on Mar 23, 2014

# ? Mar 23, 2014 05:38

Selachian: Oct 9, 2012

Question: What can you do with DDN that you can't do with other editions?

quote:

I don't want a game that opens new worlds. That is likely a bad.sign in fact. Instead I want to play what I could play in 1e but with superior mechanics.

(yes, I know Emerikol is the lowest of low-hanging fruit, but I just could not pass that one up.)

# ? Mar 23, 2014 06:03

Saguaro PI: Mar 11, 2013; Totally legit tree

Grog in bold.

--------------------------

For me, PDFs have the following advantages over printed supplements:

My wife doesn't know that I have bought them.

# ? Mar 23, 2014 08:06

Alien Rope Burn: Dec 5, 2004; _{I wanna be a saikyo HERO!}

Bradford C. Walker posted:

My Personal Take on the Coalition States

For me, the think I enjoy most about Rifts is the Coalition States. They are one of the best iconic villains in tabletop gaming, and they make the base setting of North America far more compelling than it would be otherwise. Yet I find that my specific interpretation of the States is often at odds with others I see, either in print or online, so I'm interested in sharing perspectives and the reasons for these opinions.

I see the States as being a dystopia. This human-supremacist state is, very much, a totalitarian state that generates a cult of personality rooted in the worship of the Emperor (ala 40K). It is openly, loudly and avowedly xenophobic as well as manaphobic; fear and hatred of the alien and of the supernatural is as commonplace as breathing, and common language has a lot of tropes and jargon built upon slurs against the designated targets. It is also quietly, yet openly, sexist; the States portrays itself as being in a perpetual total war, by necessity a war of annihilation, and thus (like its Nazi roots) places a great deal of value on female fertility and domesticity. It is also quietly, covertly racist; "White Anglo-Saxon" is the definition of "pure Humanity", so you will observe a bleaching of color as you look higher up the hierarchy until you reach a perfect blond-hair, blue-eyed perfect specimen as the commonplace example. (This also doubles as useful social control.)

I see no reason for not avoiding the hypocrisy of the inspirations. I prefer to use the Straussian concept of an Inner and Outer Elite, with the Inner Elite as hidden from both the Outer Elite and the common people alike, save for the designated points of interface (e.g. the Emperor and a few other officials) so that the true rulers can operate efficiently in the shadows away from prying eyes- literal and metaphorical alike. Certain "elite units" are put into one or the other, with the vast majority being "Outer Elite" and used as covers for Inner Elites, but most of the core Intelligence community is firmly in the Inner Elite's hands. (e.g. the Vanguard is Inner Elite)

I also see no reason for not displaying the most fantastic ideas when it comes to social control mechanisms; this is one of the few settings where it isn't loving retarded most of the time. For example, I think that the States uses the Army to manage its population. So, I think that "citizenship" comes only after either spending 25 years on active duty (for men) or getting married and producing a large number of children (by said husband) and then raising them to draft/marriage age. Service grants citizenship, for those that endure that long and don't get cheated along the way, in the form of being able to hold land and establish a household. I think that there's an imperial DNA database that tracks genetics, that much of the free healthcare provided (by the Army Medical Corps) is really just a cover for DNA engineering that alters the vast peasantry into forms that the elite prefers, and industry is automated to a degree we would find fantastic.

The Army gets used in other ways. The Emperor's elite guard? A unit of Full Conversion Cyborgs, all of then identical, 10K strong called "The Immortals" (in knowing homage to the Persian unit of old). The Army's penal units are all Juicers, as are certain "elite units" composed of undesirables, the specific type of which are code-named along Greek lines. (The three most common are "Spartan", "Theban" and "Gorgon".) Those that survive long enough for Final Call to hit are instead transferred to the Immortals and converted into cyborgs, with mental stability ensured through active telepathic intervention.

Coalition Society, therefore, is thoroughly militarized. There are no private firms providing arms; there are design bureaus. There are no individuals, just members of households (with paterfamilias re-instituted), and most men die young fighting in one of the Coalition's many wars while most women end up married to officers and retiring NCOs as part of their husband's retirement bonuses. (And no, monogamy is not the norm.) Farming is highly automated but most farms are small, as they are grants of land given to the toughest of Coalition men: retiring NCOs around 40-45 years of age (and 25-30 years of combat experience). (This too is deliberate policy, based on Rome.) Mining is done by automated assets, as is logging, protected by military assets (this is "light duty"). The States, therefore, are on a permanent wartime footing.

Bradford C. Walker posted:

Coalition Jucier Units: The Three Most Common Types

Spartan: This is the common penal Juicer. He is an otherwise normal human male, either heterosexual or bisexual, who committed an offense and got caught. (Or got framed, but we're talking Official Dogma here.) He is a trained soldier, and the specific form of Juicer he becomes depends upon that training; most are baseline, a few are Phaeton (pilot) types, with others being rare or non-existent. These guys get used like marines; they get sent first where the resistance is hardest, and they are expected to succeed or die trying- those that retreat do get shot by their (not-Juicer) officers. Very few ascend into the Immortals. Their CO is always "Leonidas", and they come in 300-man units; amongst the Inner Elite, this is considered hilariously funny.

Theban: The Inner Elite has little love for homosexuals. Thanks to DNA testing, male homosexuals are identified early and then tracked into training as a Juicer upon draft age; neither they nor their families are ever told that this is anything other than a high honor. They are not mistreated, but--as with their namesakes--are encouraged to find love within the ranks. If those Spartans are the dogmeat sent into the grinder, Thebans are glorious soldiers sent to do Very Important Things that nevertheless are usually certain death such as hold the line during retreats, make diversionary assaults against hard points or take on enemy elites and tie them down so artillery can tear them up. (The artillery commanders aren't told to be precise, by the way.) Most of the Immortals come from these units. These also come 300 at a time; this too is often thought of as a hilarious joke.

Gorgon: The Inner Elite has no need of women that can't breed (not won't; they send those women elsewhere), and are too ugly to use as spies (not too plain; again, those women get sent elsewhere- we mean fugly). These women are the rarest of the Coalition Juicers, are always of the baseline model, and operate as three-man teams. They aren't used in military operations on the battlefield. They're used strictly as deniable killers by Intelligence. The team leader, usually the most personable of the trio, is "Medusa"; their handler is always "The Eye". The Inner Elite snicker like brats over this also. Gorgons that ascend into the Immortals are rare.

Bradford C. Walker posted:

Everyday Counter-Intelligence

Some retiring Coalition soldiers are unable to sire children. This is a severe blow to their pride, so it's officially classified as a "life-depriving injury" to facilitate the ability of the soldier to save face. (This seeming-mercy is self-serving; the Inner Elite, as noted above, places great value on being able to breed so as to keep population up and use the pressures generated to maintain an overall level of fear, uncertainty and doubt that can be exploited for propaganda purposes- it also acts as another tool in the social control toolbox.) Rather than risk the exposure of this inability by putting them in farmland homesteads, they're made into the managers of taverns located near Army barracks.

These men are, as usual, granted wives as well as land. The women, however, are actually homosexual women. They're drafted into a "finishing school" and then work as tavern wenches for their husbands. Since the active duty men are single men, and still as randy as soldiers usually are, it's not uncommon for the soldiers to attempt to pick up the wenches. Thus we have one of the most perverse, hypocritical and cynical examples of how the Inner Elite control the Coalition population.

The women are trained as spies, in the Honey Trap tradition; they use sex to seduce targets, get them to lower their guard and spill their secrets while in bed. These lesbians are used in a counter-intelligence capacity against the Army to ensure that all sorts of unwanted influence doesn't find a home in a Coalition facility; their husbands, by and large, are blackmailed into complying through the stigma of impotence. (Their supposed secret isn't one, really; it's more of a "don't step out of line and we won't ruin you" situation.) What makes this perverse is that these spies compound their husband's problems by cuckolding him and producing children by the men that they seduce; that stigma turns into scandal if it comes out that "your children" aren't yours- off to a Spartan unit with you. (Most evil is this petty and banal.)

So, the end result is a game most foul. On the surface, it's a game of randy soldiers screwing tavern wenches behind the old man's back for fun and lulz. (But don't get caught; off to the Spartans with you if you do!) Children that these wenches have are legally and official of the husband's household. Now, under that facade you have Coalition Intelligence exploiting homosexual women by forcing them to be whores for the state (or else), forcing retired soldiers to play along (or else), all to catch undesired political (etc.) influence from getting any traction. Now you know why that tavern owner is such a miserable old man, and often why the wenches are so surly, as well as why Little Bobby doesn't seem to resemble his father that much.

Bradford C. Walker posted:

Whyfor the Misogyny and Sexual Repression in Coalition Society?

There are two reasons for why these are so prominent.

First, this was tried in Nazi Germany and the Coalition States are meant in many ways to be "Nazi Germany Done Better"; second, because this is a society that--like Orwell--is obsessed with control and one of the oldest ways (old, in large part, because it works) is division of the population against itself and the easiest way to do that is all lines of sex and gender. Removing individuality from the population, getting them to think in terms of being part of a greater--but fragile--whole without which they have no security, works when you institute a Greco-Roman style of patriarchy and make the patriarchs into agents of the state. It's a peculiar sort of neo-feudal social mechanism where you're nothing unless you're part of something bigger than yourself.

Why the repression? In part because of the fear, uncertainty and doubt that it generates- and tyrannies thrive on that anxiety because it opens an avenue of social control. In part out of cold logistical necessity, something the population understands intuitively; the Coalition's playing a numbers game, so it uses force and fraud to maximize the breeding rate knowing full well that it's their specific circumstances that make it viable to do so- if this were a more stable world, the ridiculous disparities amongst the sexes would itself become a threat to social stability and order. They need men to fight and women to breed; it's that simple at its basis, and they cook the books (as it were) to ensure that things work that way.

Why the misogyny? In part because the Inner Elite, being successors to the pre-Rifts global elites, see people first and foremost as tools--as assets--and not as fellow human beings. They look at women and see self-propelled baby manufacturing complexes; they view women that aren't breeding as being wrong, somehow, and a lot of their reactions to that perception of wrongness is meant to "fix" them (if possible) or recoup a loss (if not) by using them in some related capacity. The Inner Elite thinks in terms of math, of statistics, of profits/conquests and losses, and not in terms that would see the people under their power as equals, as fellows. They're not that much different than their predecessors in real history; the callbacks to Rome, Greece, China and other strongly patriarchal cultures is not accidental- it's, in many ways, an attempt to synthesize the successful (from their point of view) elements into a stronger whole- and they do this because they believe that this is natural law, and the women amongst their own class largely buy into it.

I'm trying my damnedest to create an evil society and culture that fits into the high concept of the States, and in my experience you have to get at elements like this to make it stick in play; the players (and their characters) may only see the tip of the iceberg, but there is a lot of depth supporting it that can make its presence felt if pushed.

# ? Mar 23, 2014 10:17

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Raneth posted:

If the concern is about innocent people suffering, then why not just enslave races that are inherently evil like orcs, goblinoids, gnolls, etc? If it's already okay to break into their homes, slaughter them en masse, and steal their valuables... then what exactly is the problem with enslaving the walking pieces of garbage so they're actually helping our good societies instead of attacking our villages, killing our men, eating our children and raping our women? These creatures were created by evil gods with evil literally in their DNA. The only thing you can do with them is either kill them or make them do something useful, because if you don't kill them or enslave them or brainwash them with sanctify the wicked they will try to eat you.

# ? Mar 24, 2014 05:22

shades of eternity: Nov 9, 2013; Where kitties raise dragons in the world's largest mall.

Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle Review (done by the tome show podcast)
http://www.thetomeshow.com/2014/03/12/ghosts-of-dragonspear-castle-review-tome-230/

After hearing this review of their GenCon exclusive, I can't believe this product was published.

Misogyny
RailRoading storylines
Gygaxian troubleshooting
GMNPCs
Missing rules and clairifications.
and worst of all, it is designed so they cannot win.

and this is designed to sell dnd next for 18 bucks...as a pdf.

I'm impressed and not in a good way.

# ? Mar 24, 2014 21:05

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

RPGnet poster ScooterinAB has finally had enough - enough I tell you! - of gaming's greatest scourge, and he's going to put his foot down and stand up and speak out, even if earns him a threadban.

I'm speaking, of course, about people who malign the traditional two-column layout of game books.

quote:

No offense, but are you people high? Please put down your crack pipes and realize that two column layouts go much, much deeper than the gaming industry. Many textbook, academic journals, research papers, and technical manuals are written in two or more columns. Two column layouts are easier to read, more space efficient, and easier to layout with the tables, sidebars, and artwork we need in gaming books (yes, artwork is necessary because it breaks up the wall of text before you). Two columns also makes documents easier to read on portable devices since you don't need to reformat the document, don't need to pan all the damned time, and can actually see what you are reading.

Digest format printing has nothing to do with columns. I have seen a great many books in digest size that use two column layout because it works well. A single column digest book is just as hard to read as a single column letter or A4 book. A slightly smaller page size doesn't change that.

Two column layout isn't going anywhere, sort of a massive and historically unprecedented overhaul in all of printing and academia. Hating PDFs doesn't change that. Stop trolling and trying to start fights.

# ? Mar 25, 2014 06:04

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Also, notable RPGnet dumbass Lars Dangly is trying to distribute copies of the early 1980s RPG The Fantasy Trip without any sort of license or rights to do so because...well, let him "explain"

Lars Dangly posted:

My understanding of US copyright law is that properties published before 1998 but not before 1964 had to have their copyright renewed after 28 years or the property would become public domain. Is that wrong?

My understanding is that if you ask someone if they're a cop, they have to answer truthfully or else it's entrapment. Is that wrong? :downs:

# ? Mar 25, 2014 06:09

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

I am a Traveller whore. I own everything Traveller related (or almost - I am missing the wooden dice with the Imperial Starburst from wayyyy back). I have bought all the versions of Traveller, even the ones I hated, because they were Traveller and that since the 1970's. I have given money to the T5 kickstarter (I have bought the CD-Rom and actually read the bloody files last year? The year before? I do not remember). I owned all the books for Traveller: New Era although I did not like it. We just kept playing MegaTraveller (in fact, we continued with MegaTraveller until Mongoose Traveller came out). I photocopied Fire Fusion and Steel and placed all the corrections and the new tables where they belonged just so I would have a full up to date book (I actually used it to build starships because it was fun).

What does T5 bring that Mongoose Traveller does not have? As far as I am concerned, nothing. It is more complicated, more cumbersome, has more useless rules, relies on a resolution system that looks very much like T4 (at least the last time I looked). When I read the CD-Rom it had pages after pages of justification for the dice rolling system chosen. However, I am still waiting for it and I will hold it dear to my chest and pet it and call it sweet names.

Because it is Traveller.

# ? Mar 26, 2014 03:17

The Lore Bear: Jan 21, 2014; I don't know what to put here. Guys? GUYS?!

Old Geezer posted:

No. No, you really wouldn't. The above-mentioned experiment taught me how much more clear a typical D&D game is than really trying it.

For one thing, the "torchlight = 30 feet, lantern = 60" is utter bullshit. We were using kerosene lanterns -- WAY better than medieval lanterns -- and you can tell a "moving shape" is humanoid at about 20 feet. You can't really distinguish heraldry on a shield until about 10 feet away. And as mentioned above, "investigating" anything requires getting your face about a foot away.

Also, it's just plain hard to see poo poo. We were exploring a "chamber" and it took us about ten minutes just to get the basic dimensions and exits fairly accurate. "20 x 30 room, you're in the middle of the south wall, door west in the south corner, door north in the east corner" is MUCH clearer and faster. Also, as we were wrapping up, we suddenly noticed that one of the torch holders had his back to a 2 x 4 foot hole in the foundation into a crawlspace that we hadn't noticed for the first ten minutes.

My comment was "Okay, we hear a loud squelch, and we turn around, and the top half of you is missing because the monster reached out of there and ate you."

# ? Mar 26, 2014 08:31

Nancy_Noxious: Apr 10, 2013; by Smythe

quote:

First and foremost, players are expected to make good decisions. For instance, deciding to probe a pile of debris with a 10' pole before digging in. Anyone can think to do this, regardless of class. This grants unprecedented freedom, but also greater responsibility.

Next, each character has a set of ability scores. Some, like charisma, reflect intellectual abilities. Still, players have substantial wiggle room.

Finally, each character has a class, which governs their ability to deal with dangerous and/or difficult situations in general. These can overlap substantially, although with limits, and players are expected to work together and make good decisions as previously explained.

Anything not expressly reserved for a particular class can be attempted by anyone within reasonable limits based on the circumstances at hand or the character's ability scores, etc.

Once we introduce specific skills, however, only those who have a particular skill can try to use it, and this substantially reduces the freedom players once had.

Furthermore, players may start to see "character concept" as what powers they have and not as their background and personal history. At it's worst, players stop thinking they can even influence the game beyond what powers they have. This doesn't have to be, but sometimes is.

# ? Mar 26, 2014 11:27

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Is Emirikol still cheating?

Emerikol posted:

I'm ready because I hate the idea of 4e being the official D&D. So switching is a good thing. On the other hand, I could play anything pre-4e though I'd want to OSR some of the old stuff first. (d20 ascending etc...). Playstyle wise though I'm a 1e guy. I just want 3e mechanics and 1e deadliness and adventure playstyle.

"I don't really want Next, I just want 4e to not be D&D anymore."

# ? Mar 26, 2014 14:24

canti32: Apr 27, 2008; Fearless in Devotion, Rising to Promotion,
Rising to the ranks of mighty heroes, Fighting foes in every land,

History only tells a story, We are to see your glory,
Stand aside the Reds are coming,
WREXHAM IS THE NAME

This is practically like shooting fish in a barrel, but~Re: Barbarossa

quote:

Honestly, I find the reactions this is getting far, far more offensive than the game in question itself, and I see this attitude time and time again with Japanese media (in those cases though, there aren't Nazis involved, but still). Report the Kickstarter? Track down the people who are buying it? Holy cow, guys, that's very.... Nazi-like of all of you.

People, no one is making you play this game. No one is making you buy it, look at it, or do anything involving or remotely related to it. If it bothers you, the act of not involving yourself takes no effort on your part. It takes far more effort to involve yourself with and be upset by it than it does to just walk away.

This game is not Hitler. It is is not killing anyone. It is not sexually violating anyone. It is a game, of which it looks like a surprising amount of effort went into given the content, but that's another issue (and there I am doing the same thing I'm saying people shouldn't do).

This game was never for you. If you were following the devs of this game and they announced they were making a Nazi game, okay, I can get that, sort of. But if this upsets you and you're finding out about it now, just close out of your browser. The game was never intended for you. You were probablynever going to play it, whether it was about Nazis or ancient Chinese soldiers or even boats and planes turned into girls. It was never going to be for you.

Do you go into vegetarian restaurants and tell at the management for their poor steak and poultry selection? Do you go into a hardware store and complain about how they don't have a clothing section? Of course not.

The same logic applies here. This was made for people who want it, to be bought by people who want it and sold with things like it. If it's not for you, that's fantastic. It's not for me either No one is forcing it on you - but let the people who do enjoy it have it. It's not harming anyone, and if you've got enough energy to be upset about a dumb boob game that people will forget about a month after it releases, you probably could be better applying that energy elsewhere.

Ah yes the "If you don't like pedophilia then you don't have to engage in it" argument.

quote:

You know your game is too controversial when even Japan wont have any of it.

That being said, these cartoon girls are actually pretty cute.

quote:

There are obviously people who would think this is horribly offensive, and I think it's fair to say they have good reason, but you also have to remember than in East Asia and Japan specifically Nazis aren't viewed the same way as they are in the west as the ultimate evil in history, and the reason is simply that they were never really directly involved with Nazi Germany the same way Europe, and the US to a lesser extent, were. On the other hand, Nanking is a huge issue to this day even though many Americans probably don't even know what that is and why it's important, and in Japan the Americans turned two entire cities filled with civilians into dust with nuclear bombs and another hundred thousand or so in the firebombing of Tokyo. Then you've got s**t like in WW1 where half a million people died horribly in waterlogged Flemish trenches at Passchendaele day and night for 3 months to capture 5 miles of land, or about 2 inches for each person killed in a pointless battle in a pointless war. That happened in western Europe even and by 2014 no one cares at all anymore. All of these things are terrible, but a lot of Americans have no problem joking about them and I suspect if a US company put out a world war 2 themed card game about scantily clad girls fighting in the pacific theater and nuking Japanese cities whatever outrage there would be would be over the sexual content rather than the violent historical context, because the US already has tons of world war 2 themed games and games which involve nuking cities. If anything I'd argue all the mainstream fps video games we have in the US about literally shooting foreigners in HD are more offensive than a card game abstraction. Not to mention, you can't deny the Nazis had very stylish uniforms, if they aren't ingrained in cultural conciseness as an evil symbol like they are in the west, it's perfectly reasonable to want to draw characters wearing them.

Basically the point is, this article is just being silly and making a big deal out of problems that don't exist. Sure the game is in poor taste, but it isn't the worst thing I've seen in my life, probably not even the worst thing I've seen this week so far. You could argue the Nazi regime was worse than those others by sheer volume, but honestly it's all relative.

Worse things have happened in the past, which makes all terrible things now ok.

quote:

The game itself is actually quite well made. A well balanced well formed game. The mechanics are sound and the game seems to be quite enjoyable from everything I have read.

As for the people who take offense to this.. REALLY? You think this is making lite of the atrocities of the Third Reich?
#1 THIS IS ONE OF THE MANY THINGs HITLER COULD NEVER DO. Learn history. Then come back. Hitler FAILED at invading russia. The moron tried to do it in winter.
#2 If the ridiculous artwork(schoolgirls!) and ridiculous flavor (they are fighting the SORCERER stalin) isn't enough to prove they are doing it tongue in cheek I don't know what else could convince people of that.
#3 To be fair... I think as many atrocities were committed by stalin in this part of WWII as Hitler.. both sides used Scorched Earth practices when retreating(first Stalin and then Hitler) so I don't think anything is being "made light of".
#4 It's a fricking game. It's not saying nazism was right. Or moral. Or anything like that. It's just a game with schoolgirls fighting a sorcerer.

If you want to take this too seriously.. fine. Don't think I don't know history or appreciate what happened. I do. But it's not like it's a train game about the concentration camps..(which I think there is.. just can't remember the title).

Corrected for better reflecting hitlers many mistakes. I was focusing on the one that was a historical repeat.

Ah yes, now I see, the half naked children are there for satirical purposes. Also its ok to glorify Nazi's because they failed to take Russia.

quote:

For the record, I'm not a fan of Nazis, although I do greatly enjoy the game itself (I've played the Japanese version with English paste-ups for years). I'm also an anime fan and a history buff (with a Master's degree in history, although my degree focused on Medieval history rather than modern history). If people can't separate the fact that the game loosely depicts a timeframe that included many atrocities and horrors of war from the facts that (1) it includes no indicia of Nazism and (2) it is composed entirely of female "soldiers" (when such were very rare historically -- and did not dress in the depicted fashion) shown in a common anime, fan-service style, then this game is not for them. By the same token, I hope those same people are similarly horrified by games that depict the Middle Ages as a time populated solely by chivalrous knights in shining armor with beautiful damsels in lovely gowns and fantastical castles -- because the reality of famine, bloody and brutal warfare, dysentery and other diseases (such as the Black Death) was a far cry from such games' depictions.

Look, they don't actually have swastikas, and all of the units are women, obviously it's not historically acurate, so therefore it's perfectly fine. Also if you ever played a game that was somewhat unrealistic, then you must approve of naked nazi kids the board game.

quote:

I don't find the artwork offensive, but I do find it incredibly boring and unimaginative. It doesn't take much talent to draw ridiculous looking anime girls in lingerie. Maybe if I was still 13 I'd find it more appealing.

I don't even know with this one.

E: Yeah the cracked comments and the boardgamegeek thread about the article.

canti32 fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Mar 27, 2014

# ? Mar 27, 2014 01:38

Libertad!: Oct 30, 2013; You can have the last word, but I'll have the last laugh!

Are those comments from the Cracked Magazine article, by any chance?

Grog tax, also about Barbarossa:

quote:

To all those people that say this should be censored or banned:

Remember, many of those people who wanted (and succeeded sometimes) in banning alcohol, mini-skirts, blow jobs, masturbation, gay sex, Grand Theft Auto, Dungeons And Dragons, heavy metal music, and so on, were every bit as genuinely disgusted and concerned about their social implications as many of you are about this, and in a weird way, this is actually part of what the allies were fighting for in World War 2. The real Nazis were the ones that held "Degenerate Art" Exhibitions in which they collected together work which they felt was depraved and dishonoured their military, and then exiled those who made the art or made it illegal for those who made them to create anything else. Real freedom of speech means having to allow the expression of things you hate, because I guarantee you that there exists a group of people somewhere who hate you and your speech, as much as you hate this.

quote:

Oh no, people want to masturbate to things I don't like, somebody stop them!

quote:

This is not worse then the producers or inglorious basterds or indiana jones or any FPS where you hunt down nazi's or axis and allies or nazi zombie movies or iron sky or hogans heroes... I mean the list goes on to infinity. Using nazi's to sell merch is about as common as using sex. The difference between playing as them or playing against them is irrelevant. The medium is the message.

Considering this is a site that currently is running an article about nazi's while at the same time has a topics entry on 'boobs' you need to cut out the "humanity is doomed" aspect of this. Take down every article or reference to breasts you've ever made or stop producing content based around nazi's and you have a point. Otherwise, shut up and don't act like you don't know how exploitation works.

Grog: Nazis and boobs are interchangeable.

guy posted:

i don't take this as an example that humanity doomed, i take it as an example of the free market at work.

i may not be interested in this, but clearly some people are, and that CHOICE should never be taken away from them, just like i would never try and take away someone's bong.

same guy as above posted:

thumbs down crowd -why in the world would you be in favor of denying someone their choice in anything?

why do you think that YOUR opinion is better than theirs?

# ? Mar 27, 2014 02:43

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

A while ago I asked about something (that will never ever happen regrettably), that being having people from another forum to run a political game.

People on other forums have referred to the greatly utopian/dystopian land of "Aspergia" and I have to say it's the best read since the exceedingly boring "Utopia".

So far so good, yeah? But regrettably this model included: Large government inefficiency, exclusion and moral perversity (all of which can be heaps of fun in a game and story but it offended me greatly. I'm getting to that).

Specificially. they referred to non-autistic people as "neurotypical" and I find this on par with the "n" word for dark people, the "f" word for gay people and the "r" word for people with disabilities.

IF this were run, I wouldn't want to hear "neurotypical neurotypical neurotypical". It's jarring and offensive. (Also, the game is pie in the sky stuff. Maudlin but true.)

Second, how would we run said game if a game has to include stereotypes of autistic people? Isn't that going from offending one group to offending another? Am I permitted to state "I have said problem" and then mercilessly savage people with the same problem?

Confusing and fraught with problems.

# ? Mar 27, 2014 19:35

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Based on personal experiences I don't think it has anything to do with the adventures or what is happening in the campaign. There has been an increasing focus on the mechanical capabilities of PCs and the improvement rate at such things since 3E. The contributing factors to this are (as have been pointed out) the number of decision points for mechanical development that impact play and are made outside of actual play have increased. Also the mechanical performance of the PC construct has a much larger impact on in-game success than it used to. Player decisions thus become more valuable during character building and level-up than they do during actual adventures.

It is perfectly natural for players to focus on the parts of the activity in which their personal input matters most. In modern D&D these activities are building the character and making choices at level-up time. During an actual adventure its just a matter of pushing the buttons that you selected at your last decision point. That's old news. The interesting bit is the NEXT decision point.

The cure is to simply put the decision points that matter back where they belong- during actual play. That is why I run OD&D.

# ? Mar 28, 2014 00:15

Meepo: Jul 30, 2004

I was just prepping a game when I saw in another thread this, "The GM's are tired of people leeching, so we have formed our own mailing list of people"

What is this elitist attitude some GMs have these days?

We're now being told that unless we GM as well then we won't have GMs run for us? That's rubbish!

I've GM'ed a few times and not enjoyed it once. I don't LIKE GM'ing. I LIKE playing. Some people like to GM, others don't. Some of us have jobs that take up a lot of time and include a lot of stress, or have family commitments or financial restraints or suffer from anxiety/depression/many other conditions. But they don't deserve to play games like the rest of you, so they don't count, right?

This is like saying that if you want to play in a game of soccer/football/any other team sport - you have to umpire at least semi-regularly or you're not allowed to play. Anyone know any groups like this? I'll bet for each one you know there are about 1000 that aren't like it.

GMs need to get off their bloody high-horse and stop condescending to players (without which, there are no games for them to run) and pull the proverbial stick out of their proverbial arse and start remembering why they started playing/GMing Pathfinder in the first place. I'll bet it was to HAVE FUN! Now forcing something that someone doesn't like on them so they can be included is not "having fun". It is against the very spirit of all RPGs - hell all games and systems of team involvement. GMs are WELL PAID for their time with a full chronicle sheet with ZERO risk to their character and ZERO expenditure of resources (they can TPK a party in the first encounter and still get everything) not to mention table credit that leads to GM stars (great for rerolls - I've seen them save a PC from death) and scenario replay ability, now we even have boon sheets!

This kind of "exclusion" is what we teach our kids as "cyber-bullying". ie. "Do what we tell you or you will be excluded" or using derogatory terms such as "fags", "niggers" or "leeches". I can't speak for the rest of the world but here where I live that is a CRIME with some bloody hefty penalties (up to 7 years imprisonment for cyber-bullying) - and rightly so. The forming of "cliques" in any group (for any reason they want to justify) is bad for the group as a whole, leads to division, superiority complexes (that are now openly being supported as "right") and people becoming depressed because they are being excluded unless they do WHAT YOU WANT! Someone, ANYONE please point to the page reference in the, "Guide to Society Play" (our OFFICIAL document for PFS) and show me where it says that you must GM a set amount of games to be considered worthy to play in games. Anyone?

Shame I call on everyone involved in perpetuating this horrendous system! As grown adults - shame! Read the book or watch the movie, "The Wave". You'd make lovely Nazis

I'm expecting a "wave" of flaming justifications to follow this post, each one will just prove the point I've made even stronger. When a small group of people with strong personalities start dictating terms with their own flavour of justification and all others are forced into their way of thinking or be outcast, we see 1930s Germany all over again. Do you people even REALISE the damage you are doing? Many people will just see these boards as having few games and move on, others will unfortunately stumble upon the post I did (one of MANY recently) and honestly feel as upset as I did. For Goodness sake! A girl here in my city actually committed suicide recently over "exclusion" bullying! It doesn't matter if that is in the schoolyard, the sports field, their social group or yes, even around a social gaming table. Unfortunately some people don't grow out of being a bully, they just justify it better.

This is an open, official complaint and I call for our Online VC to step up, investigate and take action before our entire online community is relegated into the "in crowd" (who you must appease to be invited in) and the lowly peasants begging for scraps from their not-quite-full tables. This system of cyber-bullying has to stop! It is illegal! I expect the VC and Paizo's complete support to stamp out anti-social and illegal activity in conjunction with their products or potentially be held liable.

Right now I am closing my PDFs, stopping the map creation and closing my browser as I won't GM myself (even though I don't like it, I was willing to do it for a group of folks looking) under these conditions until this sickness has been addressed and dealt with.

GMs you're not "special", you're not someone that we need to suck up to, you're not the rulers of our actions, you're not the "elite in-crowd", you're not allowed your "power trip" anymore! Get over yourselves and either run games or not (I don't care what you choose) but don't you DARE condescend to people who choose (for whatever reason) to be players. Players who will be too afraid to post their support of this due to the manipulative fear you have instilled in this community.

To all those GMs out there who have done so without thought of "extra" reward and run games for the joy of telling a story and having fun with a group of friends - to you I say THANK YOU!

YOU are what this game is all about

This isn't about me, it isn't about what games I can or can't get into, it isn't about what GMs will or won't GM for me. This post is about the ISSUE of cyber-bullying. Keep your replies relevant or keep your opinions to yourself. Anyone who supports cyber-bullying is indeed a person of low moral character by any definition in any society. Rise above that please, be a better person!

# ? Mar 28, 2014 04:45

GorfZaplen: Jan 20, 2012

quote:

Gareth M. Skarka ‏@gmskarka Mar 22
It would be awesome if game designers with high-profile public reps for gender & social justice positions had more actual game designs.

quote:

Justin Achilli ‏@jachilli Mar 22
@gmskarka How many games does it take? I mean, design a single game and you're a game designer, no?

quote:

Gareth M. Skarka ‏@gmskarka Mar 22
@jachilli Sure! But when they�re known more for advocacy than designing, it makes me wonder if they�re in the right job.

GorfZaplen fucked around with this message at 03:46 on Mar 29, 2014

# ? Mar 29, 2014 03:44

Alien Rope Burn: Dec 5, 2004; _{I wanna be a saikyo HERO!}

Robert Conway posted:

This is a petition to support the hiring of John Wick into the position of Legend of the Five Rings Brand Manager. We, the fans, understand that no official decision will be made regarding the hiring of the position without a formal process. However, as fans we want our feelings known about the subject. By signing this petition, we are saying that we support John Wick in his candidacy for the role and we would like to see him return to community-building, writing, and coordinating storyline for the L5R fictional setting he is responsible for helping create.

Chris Colbath posted:

The best person to lead the brand is its creator. He knows what is best for the fans and the game itself. We should let him take this game to its next best place.

Daniel Bezerra posted:

L5R needs someone who can bring the game closer to its roots - it needs the man who helped create it and shape it.

Michael Silvey posted:

If anyone can fix the descent into zaniness that the current couple arcs has wrought upon the Brand, it is Wick.

Jeffrey Witthauer posted:

John Wick is the best game designer in the industry, bar none. He made L5R what it was today, and no one understands better than John how to steer the brand.

Rob Jestus posted:

To me, L5R stopped being the game I loved when John Wick left the company. To see him involved in the franchise would convince me to start buying the products again.

# ? Mar 30, 2014 01:00

MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

Once I read Mearls write up on the Rust Monster in Dragon that went on to be the 4E version, I could tell that he just would never design anything I liked. It lacks challenge and consequence and encourages lazy gaming. Most of the time they were encountered in the old days it was just a switch to the magic-user and their tanking for a change. The only time it really was an issue was if there was surprise or if the party rushed ahead into melee combat blindly and there were far worse things out there to run into in those cases when the party was unlucky or lazy.

# ? Mar 31, 2014 02:44

Nancy_Noxious: Apr 10, 2013; by Smythe

quote:

Having just read that entire thing, and one of the previous articles linked to it, I'd say that Ron is being unusually nice under the circumstances given that the two apparently know each other. To be honest Anna strikes me as someone who has an axe to grind.

In reading what she has to say the bottom line seems to be that she really doesn't like straight white men or "white cis-men" as she puts it. Her basic comments seem to amount to how the promotion of rape culture in the media is the fault of this group. Something I find kind of odd, as those who comment on these kinds of things point to a lot of creative culture, such as rap/hip hop music and the whole culture around them which is seen as being unusually offensive to women. Not to mention latino "machismo", and of course the whole mess that is Asia right now and the pure cultural chaos that's erupted over women having more say in what happens to them than at any other time. Indeed when it comes to "creepy rape material" I personally rate Japan as #1, given that it's produced games like "Rapelay" (which is just one game, but there are a lot of others with similar themes) not to mention their porn industry which aside from H-anime, also includes some very disturbing live action movies, admittedly many are technically "soft porn" that take some of those anime themes like tentacle rape and do them with live actresses (I say "soft porn" because in a lot of things like this it's faked, and there is no actual penetration being shown). She furthermore takes this to an extreme at one point making references to a story illustrating how "whites" have taken efforts to erase non-white culture or the role of women through history. That goes into full fledged conspiracy theory territory since for the most part "world history" tends to start with people learning about the Fertile Crescent region (which was the birthplace of civilization) and how if you want to get ethnic "whites" weren't even global players until much, much, later after the fall of the Roman empire (ie "whites" were barbarians while great civilizations formed elsewhere). Female rulers and such, like Hatshepsut <SP> have been generally given their due when they rose to power.

Otherwise, it seems the bottom line is pretty typical. Ron is developing a "Dark" game that seems to have some horror elements to it going by the brief read of his kickstarter. Rape is of course both dark and horrifying, what's more, it's a big part of various occult ceremonies and such, not to mention that rape, sexual mutilation, etc... have been a part of torture and depravity pretty much forever. You start reading up on guys like Gilles De Rais who were the real world inspirations for a lot of this kind of dark fantasy/horror stuff and let's just say that being politically correct was the furthest thing from his mind. Granted he mostly went after young boys as I remember. "Weird Tales" and dark fantasy of course took things even further than real world psychopaths, and in a game seeking to emulate these things those elements are going to be present, at least in the background/flavor text, as a general rule even in a dark fantasy game the PCs are not the ones actually perpetuating these acts. Having rape in an RPG generally does not mean the PCs are expected to be rapists, and honestly unless I missed it, I certainly did not get that impression from what I saw of Ron's game.

As a general rule, my basic argument is that if you don't like things that make most people uncomfortable, and to have the GM try and take you out of your usual comfort zone, then you probably shouldn't be playing a "dark" or "horror" themed game. It's sort of like picking up a copy of an Edward Lee splatterpunk novel, and then getting all upset because it has content that is deeply offensive and is only going to appeal to an extreme horror fan. If the idea of rape makes you uncomfortable, good... that's why it's there. If you don't like things going outside the normal bounds of the politically correct, by all means avoid this kind of material, but don't get on a high horse and start trying to tell off people who don't mind this kind of thing. Truthfully horror/dark fantasy fans have always been involved in this kind of dispute one way or another since the genera has existed, and I suppose nothing that is said about "dark" RPGs (again and again) is all that different than what has been said about novels, movies, and music over the years.

As long as things are properly marked and defined, and this RPG seems to be (given that this discussion is happening before it's even out) I have no objections.... and as people have pointed out people have gone decades without this kind of stuff ever coming up in an RPG. Most RPGs are simply put not "dark" or horror themed and as such this kind of thing isn't even a consideration.

Oh and for the record, since it's what kind of rubbed me the wrong way here, when it comes to this kind of stuff it's not just us "white dudes". One extreme horror writer whose works I've enjoyed is a former MMA fighter published under the name "Wrath James White" (he's black). He's done some collaboration with Edward Lee over the years as well. "The Book Of A Thousand Sins" goes further than anything Ron seemed to mention for his game. The point here is that it's not just "white Cismen". Something I point out not entirely out of defense, but because I think over the years people of all ethnicities have made contributions to extreme horror, and dark fantasy, and these games are out to emulate their works as much as any others.

In short I think Ron Edwards should just continue with his vision, and friend/acquaintance or not, he shouldn't let Anna Kreider or anyone else distract him from it. Especially seeing as once you go into "Dark" or "Horror" territory, arguments about rape culture and such lose meaning, as your by definition not portraying these things as being right or normal, hence things being "dark" or "horrible". Those that are uncomfortable with the mere mention of this kind of thing, simply won't play it, and chances are they weren't the target audience anyway. As a general rule you can't do dark fantasy or horror if you stay within the comfort zone of the average person.

This is all simply my opinion.

# ? Mar 31, 2014 14:56

DarckRedd: Oct 11, 2009

The Claw Tool talent knack allows an adept to use the claws
created by use of the Claw Shape talent to cut ropes, carve wood,
climb and perform other similar non-combat tasks. The adept
gains a +2 bonus to Strength-only and Climbing Tests. He can
revert his hands back to normal at any time.

# ? Mar 31, 2014 21:53

homerlaw: Sep 21, 2008; Plants are the best ergo Sylvari=Best

# ? Apr 1, 2014 21:38

Alien Rope Burn: Dec 5, 2004; _{I wanna be a saikyo HERO!}

l5rartdump posted:

Geisha in L5R

I don�t think it will ever happen, but I do think it would be neat if there was a sex worker sub theme. chi death and maybe dishonor.

# ? Apr 2, 2014 00:47

ProfessorCirno: Feb 17, 2011; The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!

But the problem I foresee is that people who complain that they can't be a pyromancer because at first level they have magic missile and mage armor are probably never going to be happy being a pyromancer because it would seem that what they really want isn't to be a pyromancer but to be some sort of optimal character. They are playing the class for coolness factor and ego driven desires and not because they are really curious about the internal lives of a character whose power is to make things burn.

# ? Apr 2, 2014 02:27

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

L&L Article: One type of Fighter gets some cool limited use abilities.

ForeverSlayer;6283793 posted:

Oh great, a 4th edition style fighter that can force others to move.

Oh boy :erm:

Wulfgar76;6283877 posted:

I am perfectly fine with a tactical fighter, but I worry about power creep.

D&D Next, with its focus on Bounded Accuracy and Static Defenses, seemed to be a conscious step away from the breakneck power-progression of 3e and 4e. I was hoping for a game with somewhat fragile low level characters, and a longer 'sweet spot' where the party could still be challenged by mundane threats.

This fighter sounds like he starts out as champion and quickly progresses to superhero mode.

ForeverSlayer;6283960 posted:

Sorry, but if I plan on buying D&D Next; it will be because of what I like and not what you like. I don't want to play in the same game with a 4th edition style character.

ForeverSlayer;6283994 posted:

It's not as simple as just someone sitting next to you playing something different. The way you have phrased your statement would be like having two tables where one is playing 4th edition while another table is playing 3rd/Pathfinder. The people playing 4th can have all the fun they want because that game is separate. But the problem here is they have thrown the two concepts together under one game which can sigificantly alter my attitude of the game. It would be like baking making dinner for everyone and loading it down with salt. If I don't like salt then I am screwed because I can't realistically pick out every tiny grain of salt there is. I don't play 4th edition because I think the mechanics are aweful and very gamist. I can't enjoy a game where I am playing my PC but the guy next to me in the same game is using the types of mechanics I hate. It spoils the whole game for me. I play in a lot of sanctioned events so I play with a lot of people I don't know and frankly, I don't care what their personal preference is. I am there for "my" enjoyment and to play the game using "my" hard earned money. If the game were free, then I wouldn't care one way or the other.

variant;6283995 posted:

Would you have the same attitude if the person next to you was playing a Vulcan with a phaser next to your Faerunian wizard? After all, he is having fun.

Sadrik;6284040 posted:

So only fighters can do maneuvers?

My wizard character cannot try and push the villain into the portal?

ExploderWizard;6284088 posted:

Interested, interested, interested,.........

....L&L 4/1/14

......annnnd then I lost interest.

You heard it here - it's not good enough that it's modular. Other people having the wrong type of fun is an outrage.

# ? Apr 2, 2014 16:28

Captain Walker: Apr 7, 2009; Mother knows best
Listen to your mother
It's a scary world out there

Double post grog is two times two many

Captain Walker fucked around with this message at 04:07 on Apr 3, 2014

# ? Apr 2, 2014 21:21

Captain Walker: Apr 7, 2009; Mother knows best
Listen to your mother
It's a scary world out there

Too busy to think of interesting city encounters? Use these utterly terrible ones that seriously sound like some poo poo out of FATAL!

quote:

A boy prostitute approaches one of the PCs (male or female) for sex. If the PC sends him away without any money, the group will later hear that his father beat him for coming home empty-handed.
A bear-baiter loses control of his animal, which mauls him and then attacks the crowd. If the PCs kill the creature, the owner tries to bring a law-suit against them.[/b]
...
The PCs are in a side street whose only outlets are at either end. Two funeral processions enter, one from each side. Neither party will back up to let the other pass and the situation degenerates into [b]a fist fight between the two procession leaders, with the characters in the middle.
...
The PCs come upon a crowd in the middle of stoning a woman for adultery. This is even better if it�s a woman one of the PCs seduced recently.
In a very public place, a woman announces that one of the PCs is the father of her child. It�s up to you to decide if it�s true or not, or even if any of the party members have ever seen the woman before.
One of the PCs is a dead ringer for the town�s mayor. People keep stopping her to solve their complaints and problems.
The PCs get roped into judging a beauty contest (for either men or women). If you want to be truly evil, have one of the party members of the appropriate sex coerced into participating in the contest while the rest of his group are judges.
One of the PC is accused of raping someone in the town. A twist would be that the accuser is male and the accused is female (�Your honor, she held a gun to my head and threatened to shoot me.�)
...
The PCs come across a beggar child who�s only parent has just died. The city will not help the child (�If we aided one, we�d have to aid all of them and we just don�t have the resources to do that.�)
A horse or working aid animal takes an instant dislike to one of the PCs and will attempt to bite or kick the PC every time they cross paths.
The PCs hear sounds of domestic violence inside a nearby home. To up the ante, a child runs out of the house and begs the PCs to come help because �Daddy�s trying to kill Mommy.�
A goat (from a farmer�s market stall or escaped from a petting zoo) chews a hole in one of the PC�s purse or pouch. Make a hidden roll to see if the PC notices. If not, she�ll be leaking small items from her bag until she either notices or there�s nothing left that will fit through the hole.
A traveling musician sets her sights on one of the PCs and begins to follow him around, trying to woo him. You can make this as humorous (a harmless youth)or as serious (a stalker) as you like.
A pet or small child becomes attached to one of the PCs and follows him around everywhere. If taken home, the pet/child escapes and seems to be able to find the PC, no matter where he is in town. This can be either very funny or very creepy, depending on how you handled it.
The PCs stumble on or are asked to witness the public marriage consummation of a newly wedded couple.

You know shits bad when randomly losing items with no recourse is the least offensive thing on the table. Is this grounds to sever with the guy who sent me this article and called it hilarious?

Captain Walker fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Apr 2, 2014

# ? Apr 2, 2014 21:24

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Fighter maneuvers are breaking people.

Because they're no such thing as an optional rule.

I've been going this forever, with a number of different diverse groups, and here's how it works:

1. Most people assume that anything in print is probably going to be accepted into a given game, whether it appears in an official product or not. They also assume they'll have to ask the DM just to be sure, but generally feel that the okay being given is basically a forgone conclusion.

2. A smaller subset of people, but still a majority assume that anything in print in an official product will be given the okay after the supposed vetting by the DM.

(Of course, sometimes the DM says no, but...)

3. Only a minority of folks - usually those who have had DMs take a hard line in the past - have actually internalized and believe that the DM approves or selects options first, then they, the players, build their characters around those selections.

In other words, people assume they can do whatever they want until they're told they can't rather than assuming they need to wait for the DM to lay out the sushi list of options before they select from them.

So, really, there's no such thing as an optional rule. There are rules the DM changes or negates for his or her game after the fact, but no optional rules. - John

-=-=-=-=-=-

I can't say as I appreciate your commentary on what my group must be like because you don't like something I've said. Allow me to redress something you apparently missed: "I've been doing this forever, with a number of different diverse groups..." In other words, I'm not taking my experience with one group, especially my current group, but rather observations based on 32 years of running games for a wide variety of groups and players.

As for your not understanding the point, I don't know what to tell you. I'll try putting it differently: Even in the caste of rules labeled as "optional," players generally assume those optional rules will be available to them.

For example, the new default seem to be selecting an equipment package at character creation. Purchasing individual pieces of equipment is optional. Most players won't assume they've to got ask the DM if they can purchase individual items - they plan on using that option. Most of them will be perfectly happy using the default if the DM says that's what is going to happen, but that's beside the point.

In other words, the way games work is not the DM adding optional rules to a set of preselected rules, but the DM potentially removing unwanted optional rules from the set of all the rules that have been published.

Moreover, as you noted, all rules are optional. Even ones not labeled as such.

Thus there's no saving grace in WotC labeling a rule as optional. Saying it's optional doesn't make the situation any better for folks who don't like the rule. DMs who don't like optional rules still have to deal with them. - John

-=-=-=-=-=-

That was the very best sales pitch I've seen for Pathfinder yet. All of the reasons I didn't touch 4th edition are now part of 5th edition's core.

-=-=-=-=-=-

The 4.5e fighter is now part of the core and all the mechanics that many people hated have returned to the game.

# ? Apr 2, 2014 21:29

GorfZaplen: Jan 20, 2012

D&D will continue to be a fail or lackluster (at best) as long as they put revenues and/or console game arcade facsimile as a priority over literature-ingratiated mythology.

# ? Apr 3, 2014 01:32

Alien Rope Burn: Dec 5, 2004; _{I wanna be a saikyo HERO!}

Dice & Glory: The Ultimate Roleplaying Game posted:

The Core Rulebook for the Dice & Glory tabletop role-playing system, a game system for those not afraid to be imaginative. This book provides all of the basic parts of the D&G system to craft your own unique worlds. This pen & paper dice based system uses reduced character classes, a stylized turn based combat system, a simplified skill system, skill-based psionics system and a unique and detailed skill-based magic/spell system. This allows Game Masters and Players near complete freedom to craft worlds and characters to their personal tastes and needs in any game setting imaginable.

The overall D&G system consists of:

A unique "cash-in" Experience point system where players can build fully customized characters bit-by-bit and gain points for such actions as playing in character. Experience points are used to buy such things as feats, and combat bonuses which have attached experience point costs.

Characters are built from initial basic character classes which generalize the character's role in the campaign and from there the player evolves them by spending experience points. The simplified character classes are: Brick, Fighter, Adventurer, Rogue, Mage, Psychic and Clergy even Classless! Character classes determine bonus HD, your primary saving throw and a single class ability.

A detailed but easy-to-use Combat system using its own class-like level system. Combat is turn based using a melee round system where a player gets a set number of attacks/actions per melee round and where 4 melee rounds equals 1 minute. It also uses a D20 + modifiers for resolution and defined combat maneuvers to allow customization of fighting style.

A skill system that is easy to use and adapt to any situation. Skill definitions are general and allow for their narrowing to a specialized purpose. Skills use points to raise their rank, are dependent on a given base attribute and use a D20 + modifiers for resolution.

A unique and in depth Magic system which uses a magic source system that determines if casting a spell is a skill-based check, point expenditure or limited by a number of spells per day. Spells are composed of well defined modular parameters which allow for Game Masters and players to easily learn to write their own.

And the skill-based Psionics distinguishes itself from the magic system no longer relegating psionics to "a poor man's magic system"! Psionic powers are skill based rolls where the difficulty is determined by a flexible list of modifiers for distance, targets and area of effect.

As with all Ranger Games publications this book is illustrated throughout.

The system also incorporates a detailed uncanny abilities system used for creature abilities or for use as powers in a super-hero campaign and a full chapter on constructing monsters and races for Game Masters. For those Game Masters and Players yearning for more creativity and flexibility the D&G system is what you are looking for!

Date of Publication: 2011.

Alien Rope Burn fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Apr 3, 2014

# ? Apr 3, 2014 15:48

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# ? Apr 27, 2024 18:31

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

I am, and have always been, crazy. It is this craziness that I brought to D&D, the sort of obsessive preoccupation that one normally associates with people who have to turn the lights on and off five times before bed or replace their keyboards once a week to combat sweat congealment.

As a child I received, as a gift, my first almanac at the age of 7. My parents were well aware of my fascination with atlases and statistics gleaned from the household encyclopedia�and perceived very correctly that I would find the material within an almanac of interest. Thereafter, for the next sixteen years, I received an updated almanac every Christmas. Throughout my school years, that almanac sat in the upper left corner of my desk�a ready source by which every teacher I had was measured. They had better get their national and state capitals right (along with every other statement about geography, history, industry or economics)�because I knew every fact by heart, to date, and I had the book to back me up.

No, I was not well-liked. I was well on the way to my present career of being an arrogant know-it-all with little regard for disinformation.

Yet it may surprise you to know that I was not a �rules lawyer� when I played D&D. I accepted quite readily that the rules in a DM's game were set by the DM and not by the book.

That is because sometimes almanacs are wrong.

My fascination from the beginning was never with the numbers or with the power of the books, but with what they represented. My fascination has been with the planet, the big picture, the manner in which it all fits together and how it relates to itself. No book, not an almanac or a Dungeon Master�s Guide, can completely or effectively relate the whole picture�it takes millions of books and billions of people to do that. For me, the almanac was convenient; it had a great deal of information crammed into a relatively small space�but the thing wasn�t holy in itself.

I suppose that my almanac was replaced by the DMG to some degree when I started playing, but it is has never been the whole game to me. All of the various books together have not been the whole game�if that were all there were, I would have gotten bored sick of the game long ago. What appealed to me about the game most of all was that it left room for me to apply all the other knowledge that I had gathered together through what I had read and studied.

I bluffed my way into a job with Statistics Canada in the 1980s, with no formal schooling and no working experience. I worked through the lead up to the census, which was fascinating for me as I�d spent so much time reading census statistics. It was mind-opening to see how they were gathered and to have a clear representation of how �wrong� they were. However, the application of those statistics, however flawed the data, enables the prediction of a great deal�worlds turn on the political and economic understanding of statistics.

When I left Stats Can in �86, I entered university after a long period of destitution and zero income. I spent most of that time reworking my world and aligning it with the real world. University gave me plenty of time to go on doing that�even though by �88 I was married and had a daughter on the way. It was about that time that I conceived of something that would redirect the entire format upon which my world would be based. A format that I have developed and continue to develop until today.

It�s not an easy subject to get into�for one thing, it sounds crazy. And it is. It is the central reason for me wanting to produce this blog, and it is going to take a long time to outline completely; all I want to do today is to outline my thinking process at the outset.

The DMG makes a point under the notes on �The Campaign� that a structure should be created by the DM which gives a reasonable, practical distribution of people, wealth and power�something that will enable the party to get a handle on what is going on. Too much random irrationality will discourage a party�s interest. It is the least read part of the DMG, and in the last 30 years I have seen nothing published which either promotes the argument, or remotely educates a DM on just how this is done.

What is a world, in D&D? It is a collection of described factions and hollowed places in the earth holding treasure and guarded by monsters, a network of roads which connect adventures and a sort of vague �fog� called civilization which settles over everything and impinges on the campaign only in terms of its crop of NPC�s. We�re led to believe that these are the �practical� limits of the game. DMs are forced to find ad hoc answers to player�s questions for lack of any structure to base those answers on.

Let me give an example:

I am a fighter, who has recently established himself as the lord over a 20-mile-diameter hex. Here are some questions I will want answered: I�d like to feed my 200 man army and I�d like it to not cost me any money while I�m not adventuring�how much food can I grow? How much of my land is arable? How much is suitable for the raising of cattle as opposed to sheep? How much meat can I get from a cow? How often will my cows breed? How much milk will they give? How much hay will I need to feed them in the wintertime? Are sheep more practical, considering that the land is similar to Scotland? Do you have other answers prepared if the land is closer to Arabia?

Most DMs will say, the land produces enough that you don�t have to provide for your men.

Does it produce more? How much can I sell? How much will the wool of 75 sheep provide for my coffers? Can I take some of that wool and make clothing, perhaps establishing a weaving mill? Will that make me more money? How much will I need to pay a weaver? How many herders does it take to look after 100 sheep? What does a herder cost?

Most DMs will give numbers, off the top of their head. The weaver costs a g.p. a month. The herder much less. The sheep will give such-and-such lbs. of wool per sheep.

Whereupon I�ll produce charts and evidence to show that now the DM has provided figures so out of whack that I�m able to turn my whole 300 square miles of arable land into sheep country, have it watched by 500 herders for 1 c.p. each and make a total of 7,500 g.p. every month. Why adventure?

Most DMs will recant, pull different figures out of their rear end, and argue that I can only make 200 g.p. a month from my sheep. And we�re back to punishing players for thinking outside of the box. Again.

And if I point out that I have 40,000 sheep on my land and that I�m only making 1 c.p. per head because of upkeep, what if I ask to get into the business of feeding sheep, because that�s obviously more lucrative?

The game just doesn�t cover this crap. Because, it is argued, no one wants it to.

I disagree. I believe that the emphasis for the last thirty years by the gaming companies on �character� and �weaponry� has been because they CAN�T solve the problem. They have to push the player out of the real world and into the box because the box has clear, concise defining borders which they actually can address. I doubt that anyone working at Wizards of the Coast has any experience whatsoever with politics, economics, geography or demographics. They obviously think that none of those things, in terms of their existence in the world, are very complicated or at all inspiring in giving humans a motive.

D&D is often judged a children�s activity because all-too-often it resembles one of those games where you roll a die to move along a two-dimensional strip, marked with things like �lose a turn� or �jump forward two spaces.� The words have just been replaced with �lose a character� or �gain a +2 sword.�

I�ve never been satisfied with that. The campaign problem can be solved, and the questions I asked above can be answered without anyone�s butt being involved. I believe I have the way, which corresponds to the title of this blog.

# ? Apr 3, 2014 16:51

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > grognards.txt - sandbox gamers are the John Galts of the RPG world

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