Current Events Thread: You know shit is bad when even we aren't joking.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Internet VFW > Current Events Thread: You know shit is bad when even we aren't joking.

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gleep gloop: Aug 16, 2005; GROSS SHIT

FIDEL CASHFLOW posted:

Monster kill:

http://n.pr/1fK4D6D

Life imitates art.

# ? Apr 1, 2014 18:51

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# ? Apr 19, 2024 22:27

Snowdens Secret: Dec 29, 2008; Someone got you a obnoxiously racist av.

quote:

NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen, speaking to reporters in Brussels at the start of a two-day meeting of NATO foreign ministers Tuesday, said Russia�s �massive military buildup� remains in place. Russia has insisted that the troops are conducting a training exercise.

Rasmussen�s comments came as Eastern European leaders expressed unhappiness with the pace at which NATO has sought to bulk up its presence on the front lines with Russia. Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk said the results so far have been �unsatisfactory.�

�We are gaining something step by step, but the pace of NATO increasing its military presence for sure could be faster,� he said�

A Russian pullback �is not what we have seen,� he said. �And this massive military buildup can in no way contribute to a de-escalation of the situation, a de-escalation that we all want to see, so I continue to urge Russia to pull back its troops, live up to its international obligation and engage in a constructive dialogue with Ukraine.�

quote:

Russian energy giant Gazprom has announced a more than 40 percent increase in the price of gas exports to Ukraine, scrapping a previous discount amid mounting strains between the two countries.

Ukraine will now pay a price of $385.5 per 1,000 cubic metres of gas, Gazprom chief executive Alexei Miller said in a statement on Tuesday, raising the price from $268.5 per 1,000 cubic metres which was agreed in December.

The previous discount was part of a financial lifeline Russian President Vladimir Putin offered to former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovich after his decision to ditch a pact with the European Union in favour of closer ties with Moscow.

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/news_108501.htm :

quote:

3. In order to demonstrate our commitment to Ukraine, we will intensify our cooperation in the framework of our Distinctive Partnership. Today NATO and Ukraine have agreed, as set out in the statement by the NATO-Ukraine Commission, to implement immediate and longer-term measures in order to strengthen Ukraine�s ability to provide for its own security.

[SS: not sure what that means but other stuff hints at big surplus arms sales]

6. We have decided to suspend all practical civilian and military cooperation between NATO and Russia. Our political dialogue in the NATO-Russia Council can continue, as necessary, at the Ambassadorial level and above, to allow us to exchange views, first and foremost on this crisis. We will review NATO�s relations with Russia at our next meeting in June.

# ? Apr 1, 2014 19:27

Whip Slagcheek: Sep 21, 2008; Finally
The Gasoline And Dynamite
Will Light The Sky
For The Night

Has Russia shut down our ability to ship hardware from Afghanistan through their territory yet? Because that seems like a pretty obvious and expensive way to gently caress with us.

# ? Apr 1, 2014 20:25

Courthouse: Jul 23, 2013

Whip Slagcheek posted:

Has Russia shut down our ability to ship hardware from Afghanistan through their territory yet? Because that seems like a pretty obvious and expensive way to gently caress with us.

Also a good thing to hold over the heads of American decision makers to make them think twice about making any sanctions too effective. There's not much for Russia to gain from deepening the sanctions war.

# ? Apr 1, 2014 20:33

Snowdens Secret: Dec 29, 2008; Someone got you a obnoxiously racist av.

^^^ I haven't seen anything about it but this mentions Afghanistan:

Chalk this up as another of the many, many things getting neglected by State while they focus on Israel / Palestine talks that will never go anywhere:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/01/world/asia/years-after-obama-hailed-warming-ties-with-india-the-temperature-has-fallen.html

quote:

The United States and India have found themselves on opposite sides of the world�s most important diplomatic issues, from the crisis in Ukraine, in which India came to Russia�s defense, to a long-awaited vote to investigate Sri Lanka�s government for atrocities committed at the end of its civil war (India abstained). Even critical military coordination over the reduction of troops in nearby Afghanistan has suffered.
...
On Monday, the United States� ambassador in New Delhi, Nancy J. Powell, announced her resignation after a 37-year diplomatic career. While Ms. Powell told a gathering at the embassy that her departure was unrelated to growing problems with India, she had become a focus of unhappiness among Indian diplomats and politicians. Indian news media had reported speculation that the United States was considering replacing Ms. Powell in hopes of improving ties.

�There is a growing feeling among Indian policy makers that no matter what concessions or policy adjustments our leadership pushes through at the request of American businesses and the administration, there is always something new to complain about,� said a senior Indian diplomat, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly. �There is a feeling that no one in this administration is a champion of the India-U.S. relationship.�
...
Several top American officials said they hoped that a new Indian government, likely to be in place in May, would help reset relations.

But that will not be easy. After Russia invaded Crimea, much of the world criticized Moscow, with even China and Iran obliquely expressing concerns. India, almost alone among major countries, supported Russia, with its national security adviser, Shivshankar Menon, citing �legitimate Russian and other interests involved.� In response, President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia praised �India�s reserve and objectivity� in a March 18 speech before the Duma. On Thursday, India was among 58 countries that abstained from a United Nations General Assembly vote seen as condemning Russia.
...
Jonah Blank, an analyst at the RAND Corporation, a nonpartisan research institution, said Indian complaints about the Obama administration�s centralized decision-making process had merit.

�In this administration, there is a small group of people in the White House making all the decisions, so issues that are important but not urgent rarely get the attention they deserve,� Mr. Blank said.

It looks pretty likely that the next Indian Prime Minister is going to be a guy we've routinely denied a visa to, so I wouldn't expect him to go out of his way to boost relations.

# ? Apr 1, 2014 20:34

Lazy Reservist: Nov 30, 2005; FUBIJAR

Snowdens Secret posted:

^^^ I haven't seen anything about it but this mentions Afghanistan:

Chalk this up as another of the many, many things getting neglected by State while they focus on Israel / Palestine talks that will never go anywhere:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/01/world/asia/years-after-obama-hailed-warming-ties-with-india-the-temperature-has-fallen.html

It looks pretty likely that the next Indian Prime Minister is going to be a guy we've routinely denied a visa to, so I wouldn't expect him to go out of his way to boost relations.

India has historically supported the ~~Soviets~~ Russians, so this is no real surprise.

Also,

gfanikf posted:

South Korea found a drone near their sea border with the North

Looks like the Norks have discovered RC airplane technology.

# ? Apr 1, 2014 22:56

Zeroisanumber: Oct 23, 2010; Nap Ghost

Snowdens Secret posted:

^^^ I haven't seen anything about it but this mentions Afghanistan:

Chalk this up as another of the many, many things getting neglected by State while they focus on Israel / Palestine talks that will never go anywhere:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/01/world/asia/years-after-obama-hailed-warming-ties-with-india-the-temperature-has-fallen.html

It looks pretty likely that the next Indian Prime Minister is going to be a guy we've routinely denied a visa to, so I wouldn't expect him to go out of his way to boost relations.

Looks like Abbas started acting too much like the leader of a real nation with real interests and scotched the talks before Pollard got to taste any of that sweet, sweet Israeli air:

quote:

Abbas Takes Defiant Step, and Mideast Talks Falter

JERUSALEM � The Middle East peace talks verged on a breakdown Tuesday night, after President Mahmoud Abbas of the Palestinian Authority defied the United States and Israel by taking concrete steps to join 15 international agencies � a move to gain the benefits of statehood outside the negotiations process.

Mr. Abbas�s actions, which appeared to catch American and Israeli officials by surprise, prompted Secretary of State John Kerry to cancel a planned return to the region on Wednesday, in which he had expected to complete an agreement extending negotiations through 2015.

In that emerging deal, the United States would release an American convicted of spying for Israel more than 25 years ago, while Israel would free hundreds of Palestinian prisoners and slow down construction of Jewish settlements in the West Bank.

What a lovely deal. gently caress Pollard, I'm glad that Abbas kicked these pointless talks in the balls.

# ? Apr 2, 2014 07:09

Marshal Prolapse: Jun 23, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Zeroisanumber posted:

Looks like Abbas started acting too much like the leader of a real nation with real interests and scotched the talks before Pollard got to taste any of that sweet, sweet Israeli air:

What a lovely deal. gently caress Pollard, I'm glad that Abbas kicked these pointless talks in the balls.

Amen, I mean I guess I could see it if it was some final status agreement that resolved anything, and I'd still be annoyed, but for this low hanging bullshit, gently caress that.

It also doesn't help that the intelligence community is still nuclear to the idea of releasing him.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/01/us-israel-palestinian-usa-pollard-idUSBREA3023020140401

quote:

Some intelligence veterans privately acknowledge that with Pollard having served nearly three decades and being eligible for parole in November 2015, this time it may be harder to convince the Obama administration to drop the idea.

But a half dozen current and former intelligence officials told Reuters they strongly oppose Pollard's early release, arguing such a move would be a betrayal of the intelligence community, especially when many feel that the United States is not getting enough from Israel in return.

# ? Apr 2, 2014 12:33

Mortabis: Jul 8, 2010; I am stupid

Zeroisanumber posted:

Looks like Abbas started acting too much like the leader of a real nation with real interests and scotched the talks before Pollard got to taste any of that sweet, sweet Israeli air:

What a lovely deal. gently caress Pollard, I'm glad that Abbas kicked these pointless talks in the balls.

Abbas ran from the talks at the earliest opportunity because he doesn't actually want a peace deal, and neither do the Palestinians. He's not willing to agree to something as basic as recognizing the existence of Israel as a Jewish state. When you insist on regular releases of prisoners and in some cases even your final bargaining position as a precursor to even coming to the table you're not negotiating in good faith.

# ? Apr 2, 2014 13:37

Syncopated: Oct 21, 2010

So I get that this Pollard guy was spying for Israel and possibly a bunch of other countries but why are people who are still active spies/in the intelligence community so mad that he might be released?

# ? Apr 2, 2014 13:41

Snowdens Secret: Dec 29, 2008; Someone got you a obnoxiously racist av.

Pollard exists in a Snowdenesque state where some people think he was an idealist working past stupid rules to help an ally, and some people think he's a two-bit crook who fashioned an altruistic alibi after he was caught. There are good arguments for both.

It's worth noting that, while he's kind of the Mumia of American Jewry, big chunks of Israelis didn't think he was worth the trade, and even Pollard thought the deal was too lovely to go for.

# ? Apr 2, 2014 14:10

Marshal Prolapse: Jun 23, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Mortabis posted:

Abbas ran from the talks at the earliest opportunity because he doesn't actually want a peace deal, and neither do the Palestinians. He's not willing to agree to something as basic as recognizing the existence of Israel as a Jewish state. When you insist on regular releases of prisoners and in some cases even your final bargaining position as a precursor to even coming to the table you're not negotiating in good faith.

Like the Israelis have been negotiating in good faith since what...1998 perhaps (and that might be a bit generous).

Syncopated posted:

So I get that this Pollard guy was spying for Israel and possibly a bunch of other countries but why are people who are still active spies/in the intelligence community so mad that he might be released?

This should help
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...nathan-pollard/

quote:

To give you a sense of that, here is a (far from complete) list of things U.S. officials and former officials have said about Pollard. Please note, this isn't designed to be a fair and balanced portrayal of Pollard's case (you can read a broader overview here), nor to offer an accurate impression of his character. Instead, this post is designed to show the genuine vitriol with which the U.S. government community sees him.

"Mr. Pollard�s apologists portray him as a sort of dual patriot: loyal to the United States, but also motivated to help Israel," M.E. Bowman, a former deputy general counsel for national security law at the FBI, wrote in a recent New York Times op-ed. "In fact, he was primarily a venal and selfish person who sought to get rich. When dealing with his handlers at a meeting in Paris, he commented on the risks he faced and told them to up his �salary� by $1,000 a month."

"Jay was intrigued by intrigue, and he wanted to be part of this secret game," retired Cmdr. Jerry Agee, a former supervisor of Pollard, told The Post's Peter Perl in 1998. "When he couldn't get anything going, he would still hint and tell tales, and say he had good contacts and could work the diplomatic circuit. People blew it off as 'typically Jay,' a blowhard, bragging, et cetera. But the sad fact is that it was an indicator of a behavior that wasn't recognized until later on."

In 1987, Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger issued a referendum that read (pdf): "It is difficult for me, even in the so-called 'year of the spy,' to conceive of a greater harm to national security than that caused by the defendant in view of the breadth, the critical importance to the U.S., and the high sensitivity of the information he sold to Israel. That information was intentionally reserved by the United States for its own use, because to disclose it, to anyone or any nation, would cause the greatest harm to our national security."

"Whether it was Pollard's initiative or the Israelis', the idea that an American Jew would spy for anyone bothers the hell out of me," Rear Adm. Sumner Shapiro, the first Jewish director of naval intelligence, told Perl in 1998. "It bothers me because it puts all Jews in a position of trust like that under a certain cloud. Whether the cloud actually exists or not, you think that it does. We work so hard to establish ourselves and to get where we are, and to have somebody screw it up . . . and then to have Jewish organizations line up behind this guy and try to make him out a hero of the Jewish people, it bothers the hell out of me."

In an op-ed for The Washington Post written in 1998, four former past directors of Naval Intelligence, William Studeman, Sumner Shapiro, John L. Butts and Thomas Brooks, argued that it never became public that Pollard "offered classified information to three other countries before working for the Israelis and that he offered his services to a fourth country while he was spying for Israel."

�The supporters who claim that the sentence of Pollard was disproportionate to the crime cite three to four cases where Americans sold or gave documents to non-adversary countries like Saudi Arabia, Ecuador and El Salvador,� a CIA officer speaking anonymously to The Post's SpyTalk column in 2008 said. �These were a handful of secrets, and those who committed the crime were sentenced proportionately. What Pollard's crew has done is to take these handfuls of cases and then extrapolated the sentences saying that Pollard has served far longer than the 'average' spy who spied for 'friendly services.' "

In 1998, George Tenet, then director of the CIA, reportedly told President Bill Clinton that he would resign if Pollard was released. In his memoirs, he wrote that Pollard's release �would reward a U.S. citizen who spied on his own country, and once word got out (and that would take a nanosecond or two), I would be effectively through as CIA director. What�s more, I should be.�

"Jonathan Pollard got what he wanted: money, jewelry, and paid trips in exchange for his treachery; he got what he deserved: life in prison," Noel Koch, who served in the U.S. Department of Defense from 1981 to 1986, wrote for Foreign Policy in 2013. "Unlike Judas, who had the grace to hang himself in shame, he lives in the hope that his purchasers will spring him so he can enjoy the apartment set aside for him, the money they have been banking for him, and the hero's welcome they have promised him for betraying the United States."

�President Obama was considering clemency, but I told him, �Over my dead body are we going to let him out before his time,� � Vice President Biden reportedly told the New York Times in 2011 (Biden later said this was taken out of context). �If it were up to me, he would stay in jail for life.�

That, of course, is a very small selection. There's plenty more out there, and it's worth reading to understand just how desperate a bargaining chip Pollard might be. If Pollard is released, it's a sign of how serious the problems in the Middle East peace process have been.

Snowdens Secret posted:

Pollard exists in a Snowdenesque state where some people think he was an idealist working past stupid rules to help an ally, and some people think he's a two-bit crook who fashioned an altruistic alibi after he was caught. There are good arguments for both.

There are far far better arguments for the latter than the former. He tried selling poo poo to a bunch of different people, including the Pakistanis. His stuff also wound up with the Soviets, which the Israeli's willing gave to them and was also lost by Soviet penetration of the Mossad. Pollard stole more than anyone else had in such a short time, with the exception of Snowden. The Israelis installed a high speed copier in a secure apartment because he was bringing them so much stuff (stuff beyond "oh America should have been giving us this anyway"), including the NSA's Signals Intelligence Bible. The US also started losing a lot of intelligence channels because of Pollard, sources that started closing up. The Israeli's offered

Snowdens Secret posted:

It's worth noting that, while he's kind of the Mumia of American Jewry, big chunks of Israelis didn't think he was worth the trade, and even Pollard thought the deal was too lovely to go for.

And equally worthless too.

Marshal Prolapse fucked around with this message at 14:42 on Apr 2, 2014

# ? Apr 2, 2014 14:36

99pct of germs: Apr 13, 2013

Mortabis posted:

He's not willing to agree to something as basic as recognizing the existence of Israel as a Jewish state.

Except it isn't very basic at all. The recognition of Israel as the Jewish homeland by Palestine has only become a non-negotiable point under Netanyahu. Mostly for a few reasons, one is that it serves as a great stumbling block for any chance of successful peace talks. Two is that it makes the Palestinians seem unreasonable when Netanyahu goes around on his PR tours and says "Aww shucks just accept Israel for being Jewish and everything will be fine." And third is that if Palestine recognized Israel as the Jewish Homeland, every displaced Palestinian refugee would lose their Right of Return, and any compensation they may receive from Israel for illegally removing them from their historic homeland.

Also Jewish homeland should never be confused with recognition as a legitimate state. The PLO already recognizes Israel as a state under the Oslo agreement.

# ? Apr 2, 2014 14:54

Snowdens Secret: Dec 29, 2008; Someone got you a obnoxiously racist av.

Well that's probably enough I/P talk for one year. Now for current events!

quote:

Calling the situation “incredibly concerning”, NATO’s supreme allied commander in Europe, U.S. Air Force General Philip Breedlove, said NATO had spotted signs of movement by a very small part of the Russian force overnight but had no indication that it was returning to barracks…

NATO military chiefs are concerned that the Russian force on the Ukrainian border, which they estimate stands at 40,000 soldiers, could pose a threat to eastern and southern Ukraine.

“This is a very large and very capable and very ready force,” Breedlove said in an interview with Reuters and The Wall Street Journal.The Russian force has aircraft and helicopter support as well as field hospitals and electronic warfare capabilities.

“The entire suite that would be required to successfully have an incursion into Ukraine should the decision be made,” Breedlove said. “We think it is ready to go and we think it could accomplish its objectives in between 3 and 5 days if directed to make the actions.”

sux2bTurkey

quote:

The latest research from YouGov shows that most Americans (60%) still support the American commitment to defend NATO allies if they are under attack, while 17% say that it is no longer necessary. Support is highest among Republicans (65%) and lowest among Independents (56%), while 60% of Democrats support the NATO commitment.

I'd consider the fact that two of five Americans either think we shouldn't automatically defend a NATO ally, or are at best ambivalent about it, to be pretty loving discouraging. Also Americans have no loving clue who NATO is.

# ? Apr 2, 2014 15:30

Snowdens Secret: Dec 29, 2008; Someone got you a obnoxiously racist av.

Actually I'm linking those survey results directly because they have other gems:

http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/9guwir1v5e/tabs_OPI_nato_20140331.pdf

Namely that a majority of women are unsure / opposed, a majority of 44 and under (too young to be Viet vets) and that the 'Murrica Midwest is more war-uneasy than the Northeast and West Coast, who are just as militant as the South. (This assumes the methodology isn't doodoo and the survey sizes are significant.)

# ? Apr 2, 2014 16:02

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Snowdens Secret posted:

Actually I'm linking those survey results directly because they have other gems:

http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/9guwir1v5e/tabs_OPI_nato_20140331.pdf

Namely that a majority of women are unsure / opposed, a majority of 44 and under (too young to be Viet vets) and that the 'Murrica Midwest is more war-uneasy than the Northeast and West Coast, who are just as militant as the South. (This assumes the methodology isn't doodoo and the survey sizes are significant.)

Well, it is an online poll so take it with a grain of salt, but those are getting more and more accurate. Re: Turkey, I think this chart is also interesting as it reminds me of a lot of issues in America where Americans don't actually understand what they are agreeing to.

Only registered members can see post attachments!

# ? Apr 2, 2014 16:57

Marshal Prolapse: Jun 23, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Trabisnikof posted:

Well, it is an online poll so take it with a grain of salt, but those are getting more and more accurate. Re: Turkey, I think this chart is also interesting as it reminds me of a lot of issues in America where Americans don't actually understand what they are agreeing to.

Well they agree with the principle, it's just that for certain countries, Americans, feel that they can also get hosed. :v:

I also think part of it is that the questions asks about NATO as a whole entity, if you will, generally it presumes mass conflict across numerous fronts. The other questions are focused on a localized one country issue. You can argue (rightly or wrongly) that the stakes matter more in the multiple front example vs a single country.

# ? Apr 2, 2014 17:07

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

gfanikf posted:

Well they agree with the principle, it's just that for certain countries, Americans, feel that they can also get hosed.

I also think part of it is that the questions asks about NATO as a whole entity, if you will, generally it presumes mass conflict across numerous fronts. The other questions are focused on a localized one country issue. You can argue (rightly or wrongly) that the stakes matter more in the multiple front example vs a single country.

The wording of the question actually asked makes it a little less ambiguous that is asking about any NATO member (which is why you should never trust polls that don't release questions and numbers of answers).

quote:

As a member of the NATO alliance, an attack on one of the NATO members is considered to be an attack on the U.S. and the U.S. is obligated to come to the defense of the NATO member that has been attacked. Do you think the U.S. should maintain it�s commitment to defend NATO allies when attacked or is this no longer necessary?

# ? Apr 2, 2014 17:15

Snowdens Secret: Dec 29, 2008; Someone got you a obnoxiously racist av.

There were apparently other subquestions like "Would you support defending Great Britain against attack" getting quite a bit more support than "Would you support defending Great Britain against attack by Russia."

I'm of the opinion that it's part of the government higher-ups' jobs to convey the importance of our international diplomatic priorities, including treaty obligations, so this looks like a pretty big failure there.

# ? Apr 2, 2014 17:15

iyaayas01: Feb 19, 2010; Perry'd

gfanikf posted:

There are far far better arguments for the latter than the former. He tried selling poo poo to a bunch of different people, including the Pakistanis. His stuff also wound up with the Soviets, which the Israeli's willing gave to them and was also lost by Soviet penetration of the Mossad. Pollard stole more than anyone else had in such a short time, with the exception of Snowden. The Israelis installed a high speed copier in a secure apartment because he was bringing them so much stuff (stuff beyond "oh America should have been giving us this anyway"), including the NSA's Signals Intelligence Bible. The US also started losing a lot of intelligence channels because of Pollard, sources that started closing up.

And just to add to this, even if none of that was true, just the simple fact of revealing unsanitized stuff, even if it was the same basic info that we were sharing with Israel, would reveal means and methods, which in many cases is more valuable than the information itself.

gently caress Pollard, he deserves to rot in prison for the rest of his life and it pisses me off that he's eligible for parole next year because of that rule.

Snowdens Secret posted:

Also Americans have no loving clue who NATO is.

That's really what it comes down to...I guarantee you that if the poll asked a follow up question with "is this country a member of NATO" the only ones who would break 50% correct would be the UK and France. Also that most Americans have no clue of how Article V works.

Trabisnikof posted:

Well, it is an online poll so take it with a grain of salt, but those are getting more and more accurate. Re: Turkey, I think this chart is also interesting as it reminds me of a lot of issues in America where Americans don't actually understand what they are agreeing to.

Like I said, I'd be willing to guess that around 85% of Americans have no clue about how Article V actually works.

# ? Apr 2, 2014 17:24

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Snowdens Secret posted:

There were apparently other subquestions like "Would you support defending Great Britain against attack" getting quite a bit more support than "Would you support defending Great Britain against attack by Russia."

I'm of the opinion that it's part of the government higher-ups' jobs to convey the importance of our international diplomatic priorities, including treaty obligations, so this looks like a pretty big failure there.

How is the majority of Americans approving of maintaining our treaty obligations a failure of public opinion? This country has always had an isolationist streak.

Also the way the survey was conducted, the respondents were asked about NATO last and none of the other questions mention NATO in them. Likely people didn't realize that the countries they wouldn't want to defend are actually in NATO (I mean, Turkey is hardly Northern nor Atlantic). Remember, we have poor geographic literacy here.

# ? Apr 2, 2014 17:26

Snowdens Secret: Dec 29, 2008; Someone got you a obnoxiously racist av.

Trabisnikof posted:

How is the majority of Americans approving of maintaining our treaty obligations a failure of public opinion? This country has always had an isolationist streak.

Also the way the survey was conducted, the respondents were asked about NATO last and none of the other questions mention NATO in them. Likely people didn't realize that the countries they wouldn't want to defend are actually in NATO (I mean, Turkey is hardly Northern nor Atlantic). Remember, we have poor geographic literacy here.

Look at the numbers again, majority support is only among ages 45 and up. Or roughly the people who reached draft age before the Wall fell. I think that's a pretty telling line.

# ? Apr 2, 2014 17:35

NIGGER DEATH TURBO: Jul 4, 2013; by Lowtax

Snowdens Secret posted:

Look at the numbers again, majority support is only among ages 45 and up. Or roughly the people who reached draft age before the Wall fell. I think that's a pretty telling line.

what's the free market solution

# ? Apr 2, 2014 17:39

Whip Slagcheek: Sep 21, 2008; Finally
The Gasoline And Dynamite
Will Light The Sky
For The Night

I'm going to let Israel/Palestine chat continue in here for now. But if the thread gets shitted up and brings in all of the unsavory D&D elements I'm going to kill it like Amadou Diallo.

# ? Apr 2, 2014 17:52

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Snowdens Secret posted:

Look at the numbers again, majority support is only among ages 45 and up. Or roughly the people who reached draft age before the Wall fell. I think that's a pretty telling line.

Uh...no? Majority support is amongst 18-29 year olds @ 58%, only drops to 48% amongst 30-44 year olds.

# ? Apr 2, 2014 17:56

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

Did Americans come out in support of defending Canada?

I don't think we can stop the Russians at the pole ourselves. :canada:

# ? Apr 2, 2014 17:56

Snowdens Secret: Dec 29, 2008; Someone got you a obnoxiously racist av.

Whip Slagcheek posted:

I'm going to let Israel/Palestine chat continue in here for now. But if the thread gets shitted up and brings in all of the unsavory D&D elements I'm going to kill it like Amadou Diallo.

Shoulda said 'killed it like Muhammad Al-Dura', a totally missed opportunity

# ? Apr 2, 2014 17:57

Snowdens Secret: Dec 29, 2008; Someone got you a obnoxiously racist av.

Trabisnikof posted:

Uh...no? Majority support is amongst 18-29 year olds @ 58%, only drops to 48% amongst 30-44 year olds.

You're right, I was looking at the Britain numbers on my phone thinking they were the NATO ones. My mistake.

# ? Apr 2, 2014 17:59

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Snowdens Secret posted:

You're right, I was looking at the Britain numbers on my phone thinking they were the NATO ones. My mistake.

Which honestly I kinda find hilarious that people wouldn't be in favor of defending Britain from Russia.

# ? Apr 2, 2014 18:01

psydude: Apr 1, 2008; Heartache is powerful, but democracy is *subtle*.

Frosted Flake posted:

Did Americans come out in support of defending Canada?

I don't think we can stop the Russians at the pole ourselves.

Yes, but only to protect our foreign Maple Syrup and Tim Hortons interests.

# ? Apr 2, 2014 18:19

Zeroisanumber: Oct 23, 2010; Nap Ghost

Frosted Flake posted:

Did Americans come out in support of defending Canada?

I don't think we can stop the Russians at the pole ourselves.

Anyone getting a significant invasion force anywhere near North America is gonna get nuked.

# ? Apr 2, 2014 18:20

Booblord Zagats: Oct 30, 2011; Pork Pro

Zeroisanumber posted:

Anyone getting a significant invasion force anywhere near North America is gonna get nuked.

Eh, we might let Mexico fall if it were to someone we could negotiate it with

# ? Apr 2, 2014 19:27

ded: Oct 27, 2005; Kooler than Jesus

Booblord Zagats posted:

Eh, we might let Mexico fall if it were to someone we could negotiate it with

Who the gently caress would want mexico?

# ? Apr 2, 2014 19:33

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Booblord Zagats posted:

Eh, we might let Mexico fall if it were to someone we could negotiate it with

Where else would we get our cheap labor and sell our extra guns?

# ? Apr 2, 2014 19:36

Booblord Zagats: Oct 30, 2011; Pork Pro

ded posted:

Who the gently caress would want mexico?

China after they find out how easy/hot mexican chicks are and delicious sopapillas are

# ? Apr 2, 2014 19:38

Snowdens Secret: Dec 29, 2008; Someone got you a obnoxiously racist av.

Booblord Zagats posted:

China after they find out how easy/hot mexican chicks are and delicious sopapillas are

China's all over Central America and frankly those foods / women are better

# ? Apr 2, 2014 19:43

Marshal Prolapse: Jun 23, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

iyaayas01 posted:

And just to add to this, even if none of that was true, just the simple fact of revealing unsanitized stuff, even if it was the same basic info that we were sharing with Israel, would reveal means and methods, which in many cases is more valuable than the information itself.

gently caress Pollard, he deserves to rot in prison for the rest of his life and it pisses me off that he's eligible for parole next year because of that rule.

Yep, that son of a bitch destroyed so many methods of collections of valuable signals intelligence. It really is deeply embarrassing to see Jews give such support for that goddamn coke monkey traitor.

I actually did something rather spergy yesterday and called up the Chairs of the House and Senate Intelligence committee (and a few other members) to complain about Pollard.

I also found that apparently John Walker is up for parole next year too. I thought he wasn't eligible for parole..hell same with Pollard too...granted I keep expecting Walker to be dead due to his cancer.

Marshal Prolapse fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Apr 2, 2014

# ? Apr 2, 2014 19:57

Snowdens Secret: Dec 29, 2008; Someone got you a obnoxiously racist av.

http://arstechnica.com/science/2014/04/nasa-must-immediately-cease-all-contact-with-russia/

quote:

A leaked memo from NASA HQ this morning instructs NASA employees and contractors to sever communication with Russian government representatives due to Russia's "ongoing violation of Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity."
...
The prohibition does lay out a specific exemption for International Space Station operational activities, which is important since the ISS can't function without some cooperation between US and Russian ground control. There's also the matter of the station's crew being composed of both American and Russian personnel who have to live and work together to keep the flying laboratory operational.

NASA currently depends wholly on Russia for getting astronauts into orbit, and the collaboration between NASA and Russia has been quite deep for more than a decade. Russian personnel in NASA facilities is a common sight, at least at NASA centers dealing with manned space flight like the Johnson Space Center. The two nations are the primary members of a large—and unfortunately fragile—international partnership that oversees the operations of the International Space Station.

Historically, the interaction between NASA and Russia has been firmly amicable; for the tensions over Crimea to leak into that relationship is truly ominous. If the exemption on ISS operations is revoked, the International Space Station would almost certainly have to be de-crewed (though that action would require the US crew to depart using Russian spacecraft, which would be recovered by Russian ground teams).

# ? Apr 2, 2014 21:21