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Beat'd but yeah. Red hood was Joker's orginal title before Jason Todd took it. Hell even in the cartoon movie under the red hood, joker points out how he reminsces that he used to be called that.
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Apr 7, 2014 16:52
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Wait, so the bulletin board talking about Red Hood was actually about Joker??  I guess I have a lot to learn about Batman lore
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Apr 7, 2014 16:53
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Excels posted:Wait, so the bulletin board talking about Red Hood was actually about Joker?? One would've thought that the Red Hood sequence should've tipped you off  Still, we know than Jason was Robin and is dead by the time City rolls around so is possible for him to show up and thinking a little, is Geoff Johns, he's becoming predictable with his 'twists'.
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Apr 7, 2014 17:12
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:One would've thought that the Red Hood sequence should've tipped you off I don't know my Batman stuff that well so I had no idea what the red helmet was all about in the game and then I just forgot it. Until I just read this thread and looked it up. 
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Apr 7, 2014 17:43
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:One would've thought that the Red Hood sequence should've tipped you off Wait, what? How do we know they didn't just go the TAS route and skip Jason entirely?
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Apr 7, 2014 19:06
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No Jason Todd. Bad enough City has a horrible story. Him in it would just make it worse. edit: Not a fresh new character hasn't bitten people making a Batman game in the rear end before.
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Apr 7, 2014 19:12
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MrJacobs posted:Wait, what? How do we know they didn't just go the TAS route and skip Jason entirely? When using Tim on the challenge rooms, Joker says something like 'Didn't I killed you already?' and iirc Jason's uniform is on the Batcave map.
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Apr 7, 2014 19:13
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Excels posted:If they didn't want Origins to be bad they should have made it themselves.[/i]. I highly doubt Rocksteady got a choice in the matter.
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Apr 7, 2014 19:22
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Shindragon posted:No Jason Todd. Bad enough City has a horrible story. Him in it would just make it worse. What's wrong with Sin Tzu. Besides, y'know, everything.
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Apr 7, 2014 19:41
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bunnyofdoom posted:Sin Tzu I want to say that Sin Tzu was voiced by the guy that played Shang Tsung in the MK movies, but I can't be sure without looking it up. Also Jim Lee created him, which makes me wonder if Lee realized Sin Tzu was a horribly racist caricature.
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Apr 7, 2014 23:05
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What's wrong with City's story? I enjoyed it. It wasn't perfect, but I thought it was far from horrible. People in this thread keep bashing it, and I wanna know what I'm forgetting.
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Apr 8, 2014 02:52
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Mogomra posted:What's wrong with City's story? I enjoyed it. It wasn't perfect, but I thought it was far from horrible. People in this thread keep bashing it, and I wanna know what I'm forgetting. There was too drat much of it. You had like 10 different plot threads going on, all at the same time, and you'd just keep jumping from one to the next, so nothing really felt developed and everything felt too busy to really be effective.
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Apr 8, 2014 02:58
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Eh, if you keep following the poison plot thread it's not that bad. You can pretty much save everything else except the Mad Hatter side mission for after the finale and it'll make sense.
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Apr 8, 2014 03:08
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Also Hugo Strange's plan with Protocol 10 doesn't make much sense, unless you assume he's crazy (which is a terrible handwave). His plan is to start a bloodbath in a prison he runs, brutally put it down, and then trumpet that as a success so people let him do the same thing elsewhere.
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Apr 8, 2014 03:21
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Sorry guys, Arkham City didn't work out, but at least we can just nuke every loving thing. And you can too!
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Apr 8, 2014 03:24
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Also Hugo Strange's plan with Protocol 10 doesn't make much sense, unless you assume he's crazy (which is a terrible handwave). Bigger problem was, of course, Hugo Strange directly threatening to reveal Batman's secret identity if Batman interferes in Arkham City, and then..proceeding to never bring it up again.
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Apr 8, 2014 03:26
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Mogomra posted:Eh, if you keep following the poison plot thread it's not that bad. You can pretty much save everything else except the Mad Hatter side mission for after the finale and it'll make sense. I've said it before, it was pretty enjoyable silly comic stuff until (spoilers still needed three years later?) Ra's shows up personally, at which point it all falls apart and can't really give anything it started a satisfying conclusion, Strange in particular got the poo poo end of the stick (Haha! I have you now batman, soon my months of study of your techniques and knowledge of your identity will all come to head as I... don't really do anything interesting or creative and then get my rear end kicked?). I guess I just find the Ra's plot so annoying because he's one of batman's greatest foes and could carry an entire game as the lead villain, but here he doesn't do much more than get his blood siphoned off by batman and find a way to impale himself like an idiot by the endgame.. But that said when I unlocked all of the Strange interviews with various characters I was impressed with how they were able to relate so many characters and plot strands to each other in a fairly plausible fashion (i.e, Strange manipulating rivalries between penguin, Joker, Catwoman and Two-face to maintain a kind of organised anarchy he could exploit, or his use of the mad hatter and Docter Freeze to achieve what he needed, oh, and his hilarious trolling of Riddler).
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Apr 8, 2014 03:34
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They make it very clear that Hugo Strange is criminally insane himself, and just doesn't realize it because he's already in a lofty position of power.
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Apr 8, 2014 03:42
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Excels posted:They make it very clear that Hugo Strange is criminally insane himself, and just doesn't realize it because he's already in a lofty position of power. I agree with Doctor Spaceman, just saying 'He's nuts' is usually boring and lazy.
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Apr 8, 2014 03:47
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khwarezm posted:I agree with Doctor Spaceman, just saying 'He's nuts' is usually boring and lazy. That's the explanation for 99% of Batman's archenemies though. Most of them used to be good people, or at least competent professionals before they went criminally insane and built an identity over their various psychoses.
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Apr 8, 2014 03:49
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Why did you describe Batman himself in the second sentance?
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Apr 8, 2014 03:53
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Yes, Ra's was totally unnecessary. At least he got an insane beating after that tedious boss fight. He's definitely my least favorite part of the game, but not enough to ruin it for me.
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Apr 8, 2014 03:53
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Why did you describe Batman himself in the second sentance? Well now you know why the Joker says they have so much in common.
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Apr 8, 2014 03:56
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I absolutely love the Ra's section. That cool lead-up through steampunk Gotham to find the ninjas, then a massively trippy flying sequence, then a ridiculous fight against a regiment of dudes and a gigantic sand-monster slinging energy blades across the arena? That's loving cool. Meanwhile, I find the Mr. Freeze fight to be an unbearable slog. To begin with, he turns heel for really no goddamn reason, and the entire encounter is just the least enjoyable thing for me in City. My NG+ run stalled out there because I just did not want to suffer through that loving thing again, especially not with having to accomplish even more of the takedowns than before. 
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Apr 8, 2014 04:00
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I like City's plot, besides Mr. Freeze's random villain turning and Hugo Strange's severe amnesia. I don't know why. It's just a good comic book romp.
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Apr 8, 2014 04:09
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Excels posted:That's the explanation for 99% of Batman's archenemies though. Most of them used to be good people, or at least competent professionals before they went criminally insane and built an identity over their various psychoses. But the thing is, with Strange he's shown to be a very shrewd, master manipulator who has the mayor and half of the super-villains in Arkham City under his control and was able to deduce Batman's identity. Then for the final stretch of the game his IQ seems to be halved and his plan to deal with batman is... nothing really. The problem I have is that he's built up to be a credible threat on the level of the joker (who's very insane but still very threatening) but there's no pay off and his whole story feels like a damp squib, which is at odds with the competence and intelligence he's shows in his machinations in building, running and controlling Arkham city. I was just disappointed since he seemed like a cool villain who could have some time to shine but gets kind of sidelined overall and never matched his potential. Actually, I think if they were able to do for Strange what they did with Penguin I would have been impressed. I love the whole Museum section because it feels like Penguins throwing every resource he has at you (Jammers, huge mobs of goons, a One-armed giant, Mr Freeze's tech, Titan henchman, dudes with guns and night Vision, a Huge electrified Zombie, a goddamn Shark) and its so batman-y to carefully overcome each obstacle with your wit and abilities until your smacking the poo poo out of Penguin and popping him in his own display. khwarezm fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Apr 8, 2014 |
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Apr 8, 2014 04:10
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khwarezm posted:But the thing is, with Strange he's shown to be a very shrewd, master manipulator who has the mayor and half of the super-villains in Arkham City under his control and was able to deduce Batman's identity. Then for the final stretch of the game his IQ seems to be halved and his plan to deal with batman is... nothing really. The problem I have is that he's built up to be a credible threat on the level of the joker (who's very insane but still very threatening) but there's no pay off and his whole story feels like a damp squib, which is at odds with the competence and intelligence he's shows in his machinations in building, running and controlling Arkham city. The Mayor is also a supervillain which is the only reason the Arkham City thing happens.
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Apr 8, 2014 04:15
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khwarezm posted:But the thing is, with Strange he's shown to be a very shrewd, master manipulator who has the mayor and half of the super-villains in Arkham City under his control and was able to deduce Batman's identity. Then for the final stretch of the game his IQ seems to be halved and his plan to deal with batman is... nothing really. The problem I have is that he's built up to be a credible threat on the level of the joker (who's very insane but still very threatening) but there's no pay off and his whole story feels like a damp squib, which is at odds with the competence and intelligence he's shows in his machinations in building, running and controlling Arkham city. Having a high IQ is not a shield against mental illness, even in the batverse. The writers were operating heavily off of later renditions of Strange, who is both brilliant and schizophrenic. There are audiotapes where Strange is confirmed as having a secret compartment in his office with a batsuit that he likes to dress up in and sob over when no one's looking. Strange's particular need for a narrative of victory over Batman paralyzes him at the beginning of the game, when he feels that his victory is assured and that he has already completely beaten/replaced Batman. This is why Strange basically does nothing throughout the game, even when events are drawn to his attention by the guards- if he has to respond to things, it would mean he hasn't completely dominated and controlled the situation, which he can't accept. To put it differently, Strange in AC is meant to seem pathetic, and entirely captive to his mental illness- like just about every other character. Strange is the first and most central subversion of the idea of a "Criminal mastermind genius" that occurs during the climaxes of the game. AC is in many respects constructed as a classical Greek Tragedy, in which the characters, including Ra's, Strange, Joker and Batman, are inexorably driven to a particular outcome by their neuroses, such that it is inevitable, despite their awareness of their respective situations. I made a big effortpost on it, also attempting to address a list of the supposed weaknesses of the plot, earlier in the thread. Folks like the Origins plot because it has a lot more tell than show- there's no thematic analysis to be had, and Bruce's "character arc" is rubbed in your face, even if it doesn't fit the game content very well from moment to moment. AC is, by contrast, a lot more complex and better integrated in many areas, but it requires effort to connect the dots. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Apr 8, 2014 |
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Apr 8, 2014 04:39
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Discendo Vox posted:Having a high IQ is not a shield against mental illness, even in the batverse. The writers were operating heavily off of later renditions of Strange, who is both brilliant and schizophrenic. There are audiotapes where Strange is confirmed as having a secret compartment in his office with a batsuit that he likes to dress up in and sob over when no one's looking. Strange's particular need for a narrative of victory over Batman paralyzes him at the beginning of the game, when he feels that his victory is assured and that he has already completely controlled Batman. This is why Strange basically does nothing throughout the game, even when events are drawn to his attention by the guards- if he has to respond to things, it would mean he hasn't completely dominated and controlled the situation, which he can't accept. Saying that he does nothing isn't really the case and I gave into hyperbole a bit too much there, he does, he sics his guards on you, he holds hostages, he blows up his tower. Your interpretation is interesting but I don't really agree because when I play the final portion of the game I'm seeing Strange less as a man who's hamstrung by his psychological hang-ups over victory against Batman and more as man who's just plain incompetent but is very much desperately trying to deal with the crisis at hand through any means necessary. I thought this was at odds with his previous characterization and despite everything I still find it jarring. That's not to say they couldn't have made good use of Strange's Psychosis, but this gets back to my main beef with the use of Strange in this game, he's jostling for screen-time with so many other characters (especially his boss) that I think whatever they may have been trying to do with his character gets sidelined and overshadowed by the other plot elements at work (though I will note that they are going to intersect an awful lot thematically). Really I don't think he has enough room to breath for the factors you point out to become apparent, maybe that makes me less able to appreciate the subtlety at work but I find that I prefer a tighter narrative that conveys what it wants to say clearly and concisely sometimes.
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Apr 8, 2014 05:22
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My problem is that AO doesn't give its narrative clearly or concisely. Plot cutscenes are frequently jarringly at odds with events ingame (Here Master Bruce, I made you a new item, go get em no wait STOP STOP STOP I OBJECT WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS) and plot themes and elements are hammered harder than a Michael Bay movie (I suspect that at this point everyone in Gotham either has or is going to be fitted for a pacemaker, with the number of hearts starting and stopping in this game). Bonus points on that last one if they do it again in the Cold Cold Heart DLC. Strange only reacted to Batman when he either thought Batman was dead, or when Batman was actually in the tower. At that point, Strange does start holding the idiot ball, because his illusion of mastery/replacement is simultaneously climaxing and failing. I think he could have been handled better if Ra's wasn't included, but Ra's is used to hammer home the subversion of the puppetmaster by demonstrating himself to be every bit as delusional as Strange- nor would the Lazarus pits made sense as a framing motivation for the Joker. In some ways, the difficulty of AC's plot is that it's the second act of the Rocksteady trilogy, and it ends on a down note in which the player's agency is completely undermined, unlike everywhere else in the series where it is expertly maximized. I personally would've really loved a Batman versus batsuited Strange bossfight, but it would've been difficult to convey that psychological context to enough of the general userbase. For it to fit the thematic structure of the game, it would've needed to be an anticlimax anyways- Strange wants to be Batman, but isn't. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Apr 8, 2014 |
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Apr 8, 2014 06:17
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The difficulty of AC's plot is that they crammed in so many villains that they have to strain themselves to come up with ways for Batman to fight them. The Mr. Freeze fight comes to mind as completely nonsensical. Not to mention Talia not killing Harley when that is pretty much their entire MO
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Apr 8, 2014 06:28
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from my plot explanation post:Discendo Vox posted:
Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 07:16 on Apr 8, 2014 |
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Apr 8, 2014 07:13
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People who prefer AC's plot to AO are suffering from mental illness but do not realize it.
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Apr 8, 2014 07:28
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quote:...complaining about shoehorning in villains in AC seems strange when shoehorning in villains was literally the foundation of the AO plot- central and peripheral. Outside of Mad Hatter and the Riddler, I found every villian on AO to be justified and organic to the larger plot.
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Apr 8, 2014 07:28
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EvilTobaccoExec posted:People who prefer AC's plot to AO are suffering from mental illness but do not realize it. AO is probably one of the worst games I've ever played and aside from the billion technical issues, the story is hamfisted dogshit. AA & AC are wonderful.
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Apr 8, 2014 07:31
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You seem to be hiding behind AO as if it absolves AC. But Arkham City came first and set up the precedent for that kind of thing and this was a criticism that came long before Arkham Origins was released. Also, X is insane is a dumb cop out. If anything, Mr. Freeze is different from all of Batman's other villians in that he is probably the only one that Batman reasons with on a regular basis and actually ends the game on good terms with Batman.
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Apr 8, 2014 07:31
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blackguy32 posted:If anything, Mr. Freeze is different from all of Batman's other villians in that he is probably the only one that Batman reasons with on a regular basis and actually ends the game on good terms with Batman. That's only true on the animated series though, on the comics he's a crazy rear end in a top hat. Comics-wise, Bane is the one who is on good terms with Batman.
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Apr 8, 2014 07:32
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Justified and organic as in they were put on a list that is read to the player at the beginning of the game? How on earth is Killer Croc an "assassin"? What does Anarky have to do with anything? Arkham City framing device does a way better job of explaining the presence and motivations of its different villains, with the possible exception of Azrael.blackguy32 posted:X is insane is a dumb cop out. If it was just "X is insane" it would be a dumb cop-out, but in AC each character's insanity provides the motivations for their actions. Freeze is specifically obsessed with finding a cure for/protecting his wife. His actions all make sense when understood through that lens. Batman is only actually able to reason with Freeze once he's returned to his wife. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 07:45 on Apr 8, 2014 |
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Apr 8, 2014 07:33
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The Joe Man posted:AO is probably one of the worst games I've ever played and aside from the billion technical issues, the story is hamfisted dogshit. Case in point.
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Apr 8, 2014 07:37
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All the Arkham games' writing is garbage, City especially so because it's written by modern-day Paul Dini. Not certain where the claims of AO having a better plot with less hamfisted characters are coming from when it infamously drops the actually-kinda-interesting "EIGHT ASSASSINS! ONE NIGHT! PAY FOR YOUR SEAT BUT YOU'LL ONLY NEED THE EDGE" premise for Joker Joker Joker Joker Joker Joker Joker Joker p.s. Black Mask is a cool villain and he should be used (well) in more things
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Apr 8, 2014 07:39
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