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Jack Trades posted:Oh, it's nice to see something happen to Incursion. I assumed that it was already dead. A month or so ago the author finally admitted he wasn't working on it and open sourced his mess.
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Apr 9, 2014 15:04
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dis astranagant posted:A month or so ago the author finally admitted he wasn't working on it and open sourced his mess. Yeah I've heard that. I assumed that Incursion was dead because the original developer stopped working on it and the source code was too much of a mess for anyone to use. I guess I underestimated the tenaciousness of roguelike nerds. EDIT: Hopefully they'll be able to revive Incursion like Cataclysm DDA team managed to do.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:11
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Jack Trades posted:EDIT: Hopefully they'll be able to revive Incursion like Cataclysm DDA team managed to do. The posters in the resident Cataclysm thread aren't so fond of it from the looks of it  Might be just goons being goons but I honestly have no idea since I haven't been following it that closely.
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Apr 9, 2014 20:10
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lordfrikk posted:The posters in the resident Cataclysm thread aren't so fond of it from the looks of it It's mostly just goons being goons. The Cataclysm DDA team have made a ridiculous amount of improvements to the base game. They've also added in a ridiculous amount of low-quality content (imagine 20 different kinds of shirts) but you get the good with the bad.
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Apr 9, 2014 20:18
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lordfrikk posted:The posters in the resident Cataclysm thread aren't so fond of it from the looks of it Doesn't matter if Cataclysm DDA is a crap game or not. A unique not-so-good roguelike is better than no roguelike.
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Apr 9, 2014 20:43
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esquilax posted:It's mostly just goons being goons. The Cataclysm DDA team have made a ridiculous amount of improvements to the base game. They've also added in a ridiculous amount of low-quality content (imagine 20 different kinds of shirts) but you get the good with the bad. Goons got really mad because of a small change a goon modder wanted in was left out because the guy running it was against goons.
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Apr 9, 2014 21:31
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my dad posted:Someone's been playing too much FTL these days. Speaking of FTL, a free expansion was just put out last week! It is very very good. Adds a bunch of new weapons, encounters, a bunch of new ship varients, a new race, ship and two new sectors! Did I mention it's free with the base game? Probably my new favorite RL.
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Apr 9, 2014 21:35
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megane posted:I know I'm stealing this concept from somewhere, but you could have Luck be a bonus to your defences (chance to dodge, chance to take partial damage from a hit, whatever) instead of a direct HP surrogate. When it's full, you're almost invincible, since you dodge like crazy and barely get scratched by what does hit you. When it's zeroed out, those same attacks are deadly serious. Let people burn luck for things other than just dodging bullets. Like, if you're poisoned and have no antidotes, burn some luck and the next corpse you loot just happens to have some. If you have a rifle and all you're finding is shotgun shells, burn luck and the next ammo you find just happens to be right. Having trouble piercing armour, burn a bunch of luck and grab an anti-tank rifle that'll do just fine. Make players manage luck as a kind of currency/armour. You can blow all of your luck and find a cache containing gear perfectly suited to your situation and then get shot in the neck a minute later because your luck has run out.
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Apr 9, 2014 22:01
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BobMcFartsens posted:Speaking of FTL, a free expansion was just put out last week! It is very very good. I've been playing it as well and I don't think I've ever experienced getting hosed by the RNG as much as this. Even on normal it becomes a nightmare really fast if the stores/events are stingy with upgrades.
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Apr 9, 2014 22:13
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Klaus Kinski posted:I've been playing it as well and I don't think I've ever experienced getting hosed by the RNG as much as this. Even on normal it becomes a nightmare really fast if the stores/events are stingy with upgrades. FTL is RNG Fuckery: The Game, yes. You can be proceeding along thinking you're doing well, and then bam, the next encounter is a fight with the perfect counter to whatever build you have and you can't run away. Complaining about this in the FTL community tends to get uncomprehending responses from people who like getting hosed by the RNG. The annoying thing is that there's an excellent game buried in here, it's just that the current encounter balance is out of whack. Or was, when I played the game, anyway. I came to the conclusion that playing on Easy was too easy, and playing on Normal was bad for my blood pressure, so I quit.
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Apr 9, 2014 22:31
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:FTL is RNG Fuckery: The Game, yes. You can be proceeding along thinking you're doing well, and then bam, the next encounter is a fight with the perfect counter to whatever build you have and you can't run away. Complaining about this in the FTL community tends to get uncomprehending responses from people who like getting hosed by the RNG. In FTL, it's either an immediate fuckup, or a long term miscalculation that kills you. Most of the RNG fuckery is actually the result of a player mistake. Like, for example, not taking the ridiculously cheap upgrade to piloting to serve as a damage buffer and ending up a sitting duck with nothing to do but die as soon as something hits that room. The enemy didn't "get lucky" - that shot was a certainty in the long run. The only really bullshit RNG part is in the very first sector, where a string of things your ship is weak against is impossible to counter in any way, because you haven't got the tools for it yet.
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Apr 9, 2014 23:27
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:FTL is RNG Fuckery: The Game, yes. You can be proceeding along thinking you're doing well, and then bam, the next encounter is a fight with the perfect counter to whatever build you have and you can't run away. Complaining about this in the FTL community tends to get uncomprehending responses from people who like getting hosed by the RNG. Preach it brother. FTL drips with quality and coolness, but the core concept of just pulling cards off a deck one after another is kind of polarizing. It does fit the style of the game; when you make an emergency FTL jump you really don't know what sort of shitstorm you'll land in, so good luck! I don't find that fun for myself personally, but I'd never ever say that it's bad. FTL is great.
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Apr 9, 2014 23:28
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Thing is, you rarely are in a situation where you just lose. Long-time strategy that prepares you for some incoming bullshit is as important as ship-to-ship combat tactics. You can just die in the early sectors, but if you die near the end chances are you just didn't prepare well or made wrong choices.
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Apr 9, 2014 23:31
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In FLT I don't really like the idea of "Hey you're running from a gigantic rebel fleet", while also being forced to maximize your grind through each system just so you're prepared for the end game. Maybe if there were an alternate way to beat the game that didn't involve having to fight a huge, three tiered boss every time it would be more interesting.
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Apr 10, 2014 00:44
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We decided to ratchet back to a single resource, but ramp up the overall complexity of the adventure mode a notch... Now you level up your heroes moba-style from level 1 every micro-adventure.
Unormal fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Apr 10, 2014 |
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Apr 10, 2014 04:48
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omeg posted:Thing is, you rarely are in a situation where you just lose. Long-time strategy that prepares you for some incoming bullshit is as important as ship-to-ship combat tactics. You can just die in the early sectors, but if you die near the end chances are you just didn't prepare well or made wrong choices. ..or just got flat out hosed by the rng. I got to sector 8 without seeing a single weapon upgrade as rock B and while I could grind down most normal ships with my trusty teleporter and the starter firebomb, it was way too slow to work vs the flagship. And rock B is one of the strongest starting ships. If stores had a larger selection, it would be much easier to work towards a reasonable goal instead of commiting to a weapon/drone/boarding build early and praying the rest of the pieces fall into place later.
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Apr 10, 2014 13:20
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Unormal posted:We decided to ratchet back to a single resource, but ramp up the overall complexity of the adventure mode a notch... Now you level up your heroes moba-style from level 1 every micro-adventure. This is looking super pro. When's it releasing (roughly)?
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Apr 10, 2014 13:25
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^^ Sure, the possibility exists but not finding anything useful in shops sounds extremely unlikely. Every sector has at least one shop, green ones up to 3 I think? And now they sometimes have two pages of goods. And even if you really didn't see any good weapons, you could maybe buy some attack drones, or hacking to help with shields/evasion, or teleport, or... I dunno, I think having win ratio over 50% is totally possible, depending on ship. I should get a separate save and test it out.
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Apr 10, 2014 13:30
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omeg posted:I dunno, I think having win ratio over 50% is totally possible If you think this indicates that it isn't full of RNG bullshit, that's a sad testament to the standards and expectations of roguelike players.
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Apr 10, 2014 13:31
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:If you think this indicates that it isn't full of RNG bullshit, that's a sad testament to the standards and expectations of roguelike players. I guess. Now I'm curious what's the "win streak" record in FTL
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Apr 10, 2014 13:36
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omeg posted:I guess. Now I'm curious what's the "win streak" record in FTL Don't mind me, I just want a roguelike where a 95-100% winrate is possible, but only if you know the game inside and out and play absolutely perfectly. But not Nethack because screw dealing with that UI.
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Apr 10, 2014 13:38
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One thing I never could stand about roguelikes...all the drat random elements.That and the permadeath.
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Apr 10, 2014 15:34
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Eeh, you might want to consider another genre then, since those are the fundamentals.
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Apr 10, 2014 15:42
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I just stick around for the ASCII really...
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Apr 10, 2014 15:47
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Rapacity posted:This is looking super pro. When's it releasing (roughly)? Early summer probably; we've got to get through a greenlight and some other stuff first!
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Apr 10, 2014 15:48
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The RNG should be about adapting to what you get, not whether you live or die given "perfect" play. Good roguelikes don't just randomly kill good players because they were stubborn enough to hit play game. Crawl does this just fine and that's the standard to which others should be held.
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Apr 10, 2014 16:09
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Jeffrey posted:The RNG should be about adapting to what you get, not whether you live or die given "perfect" play. Good roguelikes don't just randomly kill good players because they were stubborn enough to hit play game. Crawl does this just fine and that's the standard to which others should be held. We're still talking about FTL, yes? I think the game's randomness should be compared to Nethack: a good player can mitigate the randomness and win 90% of the time, while a bad or average player still struggles with the ways the RNG can gently caress you over. Everybody who's played Nethack for an significant length of time has a story about that time a goblin on the first floor picked up a wand of death and killed them on turn 5, and FTL is no different in terms of the bullshit it can pull on you. It's not a perfect game, but I think its randomness hearkens back to an older form of roguelike before devs were really concerned with trying to make each and every game winnable.
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Apr 10, 2014 16:15
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I kind of mean in a general, "THIS IS WHAT A ROGUELIKE LOOKS LIKE" sort of way, I haven't played FTL enough that I can say if it gives me that experience personally or not.
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Apr 10, 2014 16:21
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Granted I've played far more nethack than crawl, but I had far more rng related deaths in crawl. They just weren't instadeaths. More like something spawned that I didn't have the right consumables to deal with or escape, and were too fast or strong at range to run away. That or just the insane damage ranges or low hit chances in the post game. I've not played it in a year or two though so maybe they finally fixed that. There is very little that isn't possible to deal with somehow in nethack. It's a clumsy mechanic, but Elbereth goes a long way in that regard.
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Apr 10, 2014 17:03
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Notorious QIG posted:We're still talking about FTL, yes? I think the game's randomness should be compared to Nethack: a good player can mitigate the randomness and win 90% of the time, while a bad or average player still struggles with the ways the RNG can gently caress you over. Imagine you had an AI that, for any given roguelike, would always make the best possible decision on every turn. It doesn't have any extra information, but assume that for a given game it has full knowledge of whatever secrets and mechanics the game has. Every choice it makes is the best choice leading to the best possible future. This applies to real-time games as well, assume the AI has high enough dexterity to move / tap / shuffle at will. How often should that AI win? My knee jerk says 100%, but that's actually really difficult to accomplish unless the game is so undertuned that it doesn't provide a challenge. 100% means all games, including the ones where RNG is just totally out for blood. That said, having a situation which is 100% unbeatable is kinda lousy, especially if it shows up in the late-late game, when you've busted your rear end to get so far.
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Apr 10, 2014 17:26
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..btt posted:Granted I've played far more nethack than crawl, but I had far more rng related deaths in crawl. They just weren't instadeaths. More like something spawned that I didn't have the right consumables to deal with or escape, and were too fast or strong at range to run away. That or just the insane damage ranges or low hit chances in the post game. I've not played it in a year or two though so maybe they finally fixed that. I've seen one truly one-turn instakill in crawl, if you post the games then usually a group of players can tell you the 6 things you could have done the 6 turns before you died to save yourself. I can't pretend it never happens but it's rare. People have 20+ game win streaks after all.
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Apr 10, 2014 18:08
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Jeffrey posted:The RNG should be about adapting to what you get, not whether you live or die given "perfect" play. Good roguelikes don't just randomly kill good players because they were stubborn enough to hit play game. Crawl does this just fine and that's the standard to which others should be held. Exactly this. You can make all the genre arguments you want, but I'm way more likely to play a game if I feel like I have a real shot at adapting to a chaotic situation, as opposed to having to play through it dozens of times to obtain special foreknowledge with which to form long-term gameplay strategies, which I then have to hedge against a pair of dice. It's just another form of grinding to me. FTL is a fantastic game, a game whose time has come, but there's a fat slab of it that still feels really undeveloped... and a core audience really likes it that way. It's like a T-Rex with tiny arms.
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Apr 10, 2014 18:10
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I think FTL is a lot less chaotic and rng based then people like to admit. There's a lot of ways to mitigate risk and still be able to win by the end of the run, there's so many decisions an possibilities it feels chaotic, but I think it's still quite controllable.
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Apr 10, 2014 18:21
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Jeffrey posted:I've seen one truly one-turn instakill in crawl, if you post the games then usually a group of players can tell you the 6 things you could have done the 6 turns before you died to save yourself. I can't pretend it never happens but it's rare. People have 20+ game win streaks after all. Sure, and hindsight is 20/20. In any given encounter you can usually burn shitloads of consumables to survive, but that's not an effective long term survival strategy, since you generally need those consumables for the tough encounters. You certainly can't start using heavily limited consumables at the first sign of danger. As I said, I've not had any true insta-deaths in crawl, just situations that turned unwinnable where literally no course of action over the next 2-3 turns would save my life, despite me being at full health. I haven't had anywhere near the number of instances in nethack despite having played it way more. I can count the insta-deaths I've had in nethack on one hand (just barely) and I've probably ascended 50+ times over 500+ games. They're a lot rarer than people make them out to be, but they stick in your mind. Nethack also has long consecutive ascension streaks - just from a single public server one guy has 29, and looking at the detail it seems the deaths on either side of this streak were pretty easily avoidable. Streaks aren't the whole story though, especially in crawl where a 3-rune win is pretty trivial, but the harder runs are packed with rng-related fuckery. Anyway, bit of a derail so I'll shut up now, just people often say nethack is hugely rng dependant but in my experience it's one of the least rng dependent roguelikes, certainly after the very early game  Then again, I don't find FTL that bad for RNG either. Sure, some of the ships really need to find like 2-3 decent weapons to take on the later sectors and the mothership, but I think it's fine that some starting configurations are way more challenging than others. And since the patch it's far easier to find what you need if you properly explore. You can always see a shop from one jump away, and you can usually run from an opponent you can't beat (you have been upgrading engines, right?)
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Apr 10, 2014 18:26
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I love mostly everything about FTL except for the boss. It sucks. Unless you're really, really loving good, you need to be aware of its existence and about there being several stages to be able to deafeat it and prepare accordingly. I wish the devs did away with it or at least put in another mode where you don't have a ridiculous supership at the end.
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Apr 10, 2014 18:29
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lordfrikk posted:I love mostly everything about FTL except for the boss. It sucks. Unless you're really, really loving good, you need to be aware of its existence and about there being several stages to be able to deafeat it and prepare accordingly. I wish the devs did away with it or at least put in another mode where you don't have a ridiculous supership at the end. That'd go a long way for me, also. But I'd be surprised if there wasn't a mod that at least nerfed it, did away with it, or maybe even had an alternate way to beat the game. e: Or make it even harder. doctorfrog fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Apr 10, 2014 |
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Apr 10, 2014 18:31
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..btt posted:Sure, and hindsight is 20/20. In any given encounter you can usually burn shitloads of consumables to survive, but that's not an effective long term survival strategy, since you generally need those consumables for the tough encounters. You certainly can't start using heavily limited consumables at the first sign of danger. As I said, I've not had any true insta-deaths in crawl, just situations that turned unwinnable where literally no course of action over the next 2-3 turns would save my life, despite me being at full health. I haven't had anywhere near the number of instances in nethack despite having played it way more. I can count the insta-deaths I've had in nethack on one hand (just barely) and I've probably ascended 50+ times over 500+ games. They're a lot rarer than people make them out to be, but they stick in your mind. Yeah, threat assessment is a lot of the game. Knowing which encounters should cause panic on first sight is a big step, and evaluating that is difficult. I was specifically not trying to compare it to anything. I could rant about nethack but I don't think the rng is the biggest issue by a long shot. I...don't think 3 rune games are trivial? They are also much more fun/less tedious than going for more, I would recommend most people stop after 3 and win, and that's mostly what I'm talking about.
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Apr 10, 2014 18:38
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I would like FTL more if it was an endurance run and your goal was to complete as many 'main events' as possible which could be anything from stopping an invasion of a world or saving the crew of a really messed-up derelict. That boss is just way too dumb.
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Apr 10, 2014 18:39
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doctorfrog posted:e: Or make it even harder. The Advanced Edition's hard mode changes the Flagship's layout so that the missile and laser control rooms are attached to the main ship and can't be taken out permanently anymore. It's actually not hard in normal or easy mode because the biggest danger(other than power surges which you can dodge completely with cloaking) is the missile control room which can't be repaired once you destroy it because it's not connected to the rest of the ship.
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Apr 10, 2014 18:39
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FTL is weird in terms of difficulty. I can mostly get to the boss without much problem but I only managed to kill the boss once, it's way to loving hard, even on easy.
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Apr 10, 2014 18:39
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