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Pycckuu posted:The first statement seems applicable to one's personal life, the second is appropriate for businesses and employers. I don't see why they should be mutually exclusive. Numerical Anxiety is annoyed that keyvin is agreeing with him for the wrong reasons. Personally, I think that keyvin's idea that more diversity in cultural and social backgrounds on an engineering team leads to a better engineered product is pretty stupid one. I'd be really surprised if that were true. Diversity of cultural background doesn't necessarily lead to a diversity of opinions and expertise in engineering and science. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Apr 12, 2014 |
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Apr 12, 2014 22:32
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silence_kit posted:Numerical Anxiety is annoyed that keyvin is agreeing with him for the wrong reasons. It's actually very useful to work with people who come from different fields and people who were educated in different countries when working on science/engineering projects. Having an all male team can limit your opinions in solving a problem many times too. Like it or not women quite often have a very different experience in their engineering education than men.
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Apr 12, 2014 22:52
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Dusseldorf posted:It's actually very useful to work with people who come from different fields and people who were educated in different countries when working on science/engineering projects. Having an all male team can limit your opinions in solving a problem many times too. Like it or not women quite often have a very different experience in their engineering education than men. At the risk of playing with fire: Isn't this a tacit acknowledgement/agreement with the  crowd?
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Apr 12, 2014 23:05
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Pook Good Mook posted:At the risk of playing with fire: Yes, different cultures and educational experiences are clearly only generated by .
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Apr 12, 2014 23:09
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Dusseldorf posted:It's actually very useful to work with people who come from different fields and people who were educated in different countries when working on science/engineering projects. Having an all male team can limit your opinions in solving a problem many times too. Like it or not women quite often have a very different experience in their engineering education than men. Obviously, working with people from different fields and/or who were educated in different schools or worked at different companies leads to a diversity of thought. I never meant to imply otherwise. I guess being from another place often means that you were educated in another place, so in an indirect sense cultural diversity leads to diversity in scientific thought. I didn't think of that. However, I would find it really hard to believe that, for example, a black woman who grew up poor in the deep South and a white guy who grew up in Nassau County who both got the same degree from MIT and who both went on to work for the same company in similar roles would have radically different opinions on how to design a jet engine. Or that Being Chinese or Being Black gives you two separate and unique insights into writing computer programs. That's a little bit of a stretch. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Apr 13, 2014 |
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Apr 12, 2014 23:24
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Dusseldorf posted:Yes, different cultures and educational experiences are clearly only generated by But then following that logic: A) There aren't a lot of women in engineering or the sciences B) They aren't in these fields because cultural and societal pressures and different experiences C) We should work to eliminate those external pressures so there are more women in engineering D) Because the differences make them valuable team members You can't have it both ways. Your own argument is implying that women have different experiences than men and on some level that's a good thing and shouldn't ever change. But at the same time differences in men and women are artificial and all the barriers to entry are societal.
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Apr 12, 2014 23:48
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Pook Good Mook posted:
Differences that result in the conclusion of "women's brains are not suited to do this work" are artificial. Would you say a Chinese person's brain is unsuitable for engineering? Of course not, but that doesn't mean that they don't have a different experience from a white person and it doesn't mean they can't add a valuable perspective. computer parts fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Apr 12, 2014 |
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Apr 12, 2014 23:54
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computer parts posted:Differences that result in the conclusion of "women's brains are not suited to do this work" are artificial. Of course not. But when you say our cultural experiences are what help make us valuable team members and then in the next breath say there should be no difference between men and women in the same society then what valuable differences and insight are women bringing to engineering in a society where there is no noticeable difference between the genders? Basically what I'm saying is (and this only really applies when we're talking about strictly men and women), you can't say that women and men aren't different and then say that the differences are what make women valuable team members.
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Apr 12, 2014 23:59
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Pook Good Mook posted:Of course not. Note the "should be". Women are currently not considered interchangeable with men for a variety of reasons. Because of that their perspective is valuable. You're confusing the ideal/goal ("Women shouldn't be considered different from men") with the reality/present ("Women offer a unique perspective that is valuable").
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Apr 13, 2014 00:03
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Pook Good Mook posted:Of course not. You're pretty loving dense.
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Apr 13, 2014 00:03
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Pook Good Mook posted:But then following that logic: C doesn't have to follow from B. Wanting better societal conditions for women and encouraging them to go into science or engineering doesn't necessarily mean that you want to re-design society so that men and women will have almost exactly equal experiences. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Apr 13, 2014 |
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Apr 13, 2014 00:29
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Actually, diversity is good. Different members of a team may have the same education, but they have different life experiences and exposure to vastly different things, so they may get their inspiration for approaching a certain problem from a different angle. I don't remember if we were taught that explicitly or if it was strongly encouraged by the university engineering culture but it's something people understand well, and it's another one of those things that really undermines the SJW argument. What you think is happening is not actually happening at all, and these desires to ~change society~ are not grounded in reality.
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Apr 13, 2014 19:16
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Stepping away from engineering for a bit, there are other reasons why SJWs are despicable. They never do anything to materially benefit oppressed people. Ask an SJW the last time they visited a reservation and talked to some elders about the plight of their people and what kind of outside help would be most needed. When was the last time they donated to the SPLC, ACLU, NAACP, PP, women's shelters, and other organizations in need? When was the last time they volunteered in an outreach program? When was the last time they wrote their senator or representative about an issue affecting minorities? For them, the highest achievement is calling some one a -ist on Tumblr. Look, I don't expect them to be martyrs for their cause. They don't need to be like a Polish farmer during WW2 hiding a Jewish family, knowing full well that if the Nazis find out, they will murder not only the family they are hiding but their own, while they watch and are then executed. I'm not asking them to be like Bruce Klunder, lying down in front of a bulldozer to prevent a segregated school from being constructed, budging neither in mind or body as the bulldozer crushes them. I'm not expecting them to be like William Moore, walking down an Alabama road alone, to deliver a letter to the governor, demanding fair treatment for all. It is , however, terribly insulting that they act as if reblogging is doing something substantive. Also, many of them are horribly prejudiced. For them, cultures are rigidly defined, like D&D factions or Star Wars aliens- hence why "Tumblr or Stormfront" has so much material. Many of them are anti-Semitic to an alarming degree. They hold opinions such as "Jews aren't oppressed, they're white!" Yeah, because Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews don't exist, and thousands of years of historical persecution don't exist either. That's the milder end. Some of the stuff they say under the guise of "anti-Zionism" and "Palestinian Solidarity" wouldn't be out of place at a Nuremburg rally.
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Apr 13, 2014 20:40
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One of the more obnoxious habits they have is that they don't just have their own opinions on their own blog, but somehow find it necessary to squat the search page looking for things to be outraged at. This habit is not exclusive to the SJ crowd, either; there are people whose sole occupation on tumblr is searching through people's dog photos to tell them they're wrong about what breed the dog is. There are multiple blogs with this purpose.
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Apr 13, 2014 21:29
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I think a lot of it also has to do with youth. A lot, I would say most, of SJW politics is really identity politics, and young people's identities are experiencing a great deal of flux. They're experimenting with new identities, and necessarily creating new boundaries by doing that. Some people become very protective of those boundaries. It might be something like your identity as a lesbian or an Asian woman in America and how you express that, or it might be something ridiculous like the white girl who calls herself black. It might be your identity as a vampire, or wookie, or whatever. They're insecure about their identities and compensate by being extra-protective of perceived slights. At the same time, they're also leaving the protective bubbles of their suburban hometowns and are encountering a world that's way more complicated than they know, including how to deal with other people. They like to say their hyper-progressive politics are a reflection of the more progressive millenial generation, and there might be something there, but I don't think most of them will behave this way after age 40 or even 30. The most radical voices for this I've seen among older people not coincidentally appear to be people who actually work in the rigmarole of academic social theory. I forget the exact age of the girl who tried to cancel Colbert, but she had to have been barely out of her teen years. This isn't to say older people aren't concerned about basic issues of fairness. Or issues of racism or sexism. It's not to say "you become more conservative as you grow older." But it's to say that older people are busy with life and don't have as much time or energy to devote to flipping their ever-loving poo poo over any perceived slight. (Not flipping your poo poo is considered a sign of maturity!) They're better at regulating their emotions and come to accept that giving in to those emotions would be giving the perpetrators of those slights too much room inside your own head. You can remain calm when other people treat you poorly because you've already been through a bunch of poo poo already. Edit: If you have a few minutes, listen to this: http://bloggingheads.tv/videos/24028?in=17:09&out=20:55 BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Apr 13, 2014 |
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Apr 13, 2014 21:29
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Omi-Polari posted:I think a lot of it also has to do with youth. And when you say something like your last paragraph is when they shut you down with a "tone argument" dismissal. A lot of SJWs aren't really out to debate or change minds. As soon as they feel overly challenged, they pick an accepted reason to dismiss your argument and dehumanize you. "You made a tone argument", "you're white cishet male", "it's not my job to educate you", "you're literally a pile of poo poo".
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Apr 14, 2014 13:47
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ashgromnies posted:And when you say something like your last paragraph is when they shut you down with a "tone argument" dismissal. I love this. I also love how if you are a man or are white and are talking or arguing with them about politics or society in a non-groveling tone, to shut down the argument they apply the tone argument to you and complain that you are "man-splaining" or "white-splaining". Again, a lot of their ideology isn't really about consistency or universal rules, it's about using whatever is ideologically or politically convenient for their cause. They really don't like to admit that though and redefine a lot of words in the English language and use a lot of fake terminology to hide this and to make their principles sound like they are categorical ones. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Apr 14, 2014 |
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Apr 14, 2014 14:29
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I would just like to point out that this comic is dumb because the Flash's mom was murdered when he was a kid.
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Apr 14, 2014 17:44
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Basically, anyone who disagrees with you can be sorted into a category that renders their opinion irrelevant so you can go on believing you are 100% correct and unchallenged on all things. White? INVALID. Male? INVALID. Use the wrong pronoun once ever? INVALID. Of course I'm right, everyone who MATTERS agrees with me, including all my fictive headmates.
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Apr 16, 2014 01:02
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Whitesplaining/mansplaining is definitely a thing and should be pointed out (Rand Paul explaining civil rights history to Howard students is a textbook example of this) but a lot of SJWers reduce this to any dissenting opinions to be such. The #cancelcolbert is a pretty good case study in the flaws of SJWering which Suey Park is a good example.
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Apr 16, 2014 01:55
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Berke Negri posted:Whitesplaining/mansplaining is definitely a thing and should be pointed out (Rand Paul explaining civil rights history to Howard students is a textbook example of this) but a lot of SJWers reduce this to any dissenting opinions to be such. The #cancelcolbert is a pretty good case study in the flaws of SJWering which Suey Park is a good example. I refuse to use their stupid terminology, but I agree that men and white people being condescending to women and minorities and being ignorant of their issues are very real things. I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of having a worldview where you give yourself free license to be an abrasive jerk to anyone who disagrees with you but others are expected to grovel when disagreeing with your own opinions of how society should be. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Apr 17, 2014 |
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Apr 17, 2014 00:04
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I think it's funny that Suey Park did that and got a bunch of people upset about a TV show they watch.
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Apr 17, 2014 17:44
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So the latest SJW blow-up is that Sky Ferreira's latest music video is racist. Video: http://www.ssense.com/video/sky-ferreira-i-blame-myself-video-ssense/ Article: http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/apr/17/sky-ferreira-racist-i-blame-myself
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Apr 17, 2014 19:06
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So I looked at this Sky Ferreira thing and grew somewhat depressed. Why? So take this: https://twitter.com/AlexfromPhilly/status/456481565782974464 Girl of indeterminate ethnicity criticizes the white pop singer for dancing with black men. People disagree, and tell the girl that the pop singer is not white but Portuguese-Brazilian (which doesn't mean not white, though?). Her co-worker says "she's also not a gang member from Compton." People say no one ever assumed the black guys were. Then the girl apologizes for assuming Sky Ferreira was white but still calls the video "problematic" and criticizes her critics for being privileged. Now, was this just some Tumblr lunatic losing their poo poo? You'd be surprised. This is the girl's bio: quote:Alex is an openly LGBTQ host & associate producer at HuffPost Live. She previously covered politics & entertainment for Beast TV, Newsweek & The Daily Beast's video initiative. During the 2012 presidential election, Alex produced & shot videos on the GOP primaries from the campaign trail. In 2014, her coverage of the Bisexual White House Summit was nominated for a GLAAD Media Award. quote:Noah Michelson is the Executive Editor of Gay Voices at The Huffington Post. Noah received his MFA in poetry from New York University, and his poems have been featured in The New Republic, The Best American Erotic Poetry from 1800 to the Present, and other publications. Before joining The Huffington Post, Noah served as Senior Editor at Out magazine, and he has also contributed to Details and Blackbook and served as a commentator on CNN, BBC, Fusion, 'Inside Edition' and Sirius XM, among other outlets. I heard one theory yesterday that much of internet culture is a "you're doing it wrong" culture. The SJW politics might tie into this. We're under tremendous pressure to constantly have the screen in front of our face, and that everything you do needs to be validated by the crowd. At the same time, we are uncomfortable with people who are different than us, might be living cooler lives than us, and that there are people out there (somewhere) secretly laughing at us. So nit-picking how people present themselves, the media they consume, how they interact with other people - all of this is a reflection of a deeply insecure culture from people who feel aggrieved but have no direction for that grievance. The boundaries between "high" and "low" culture have evaporated, society elites are listening to "underground" music. And progressive cultural politics in particular has a hard time formulating a coherent critique of all this. So SJW politics is just one reflection of how internet culture and media culture in the 21st century has descended into a Hobbesian war of all against all. "You're doing it wrong" and there's no consensus to what is right. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Apr 17, 2014 |
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Apr 17, 2014 19:17
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/\/\/\ No, see, if you're Latin, you're Not White*, because reasons. (Not wanting to be counted as one of The Enemy and have to watch every loving thing you say so carefully because of feelings, probably. That's what it seems to me, and if I wasn't of a relatively recently assimilated ethnicity I'd try and delay too, cause nothing is awesome like half the people you meet having an axe to grind with you because of something somebody else did. Cause we all have secret White People meetings, y'know.  )The Irish, and the Italians before them were not considered White up until a hundred years or so ago. Eventually, a new minority will take the Hispanics' place as Hated Other and they will Become White, that's how these things work. You can always find someone new to persecute. *Although, I heard that in Brazil and thereabouts, if you have any white In you you're considered basically white, the same way if you have any black in you in the US, you're basically black, like our "black" president with the white biological mom?
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Apr 17, 2014 19:49
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A lot of Hispanics (especially in the US ) are really dark though, it's not just something you can culture away. You'd have better luck making Chinese people white because at least they share the whole "light skin = better" thing.
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Apr 17, 2014 19:53
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computer parts posted:A lot of Hispanics (especially in the US ) are really dark though, it's not just something you can culture away. Darker Hispanic people will still be considered racially separate from white people in all likelihood, but "white Hispanics" are probably going to become just "white" in the near future. Interestingly, black Hispanics are already primarily viewed as "black."
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Apr 17, 2014 20:09
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PT6A posted:Darker Hispanic people will still be considered racially separate from white people in all likelihood, but "white Hispanics" are probably going to become just "white" in the near future. Interestingly, black Hispanics are already primarily viewed as "black." Yeah, but that already happens today. Nobody discriminates against Tony Romo for anything but being a (supposedly) bad football player. The issue is that the vast majority of Hispanics in the US are dark.
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Apr 17, 2014 21:36
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PT6A posted:Darker Hispanic people will still be considered racially separate from white people in all likelihood, but "white Hispanics" are probably going to become just "white" in the near future. Interestingly, black Hispanics are already primarily viewed as "black." Well the origin of the term "Hispanic" is that people wanted a way to categorize light skinned Cuban people not "white".
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Apr 17, 2014 21:55
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It's kind of funny how much emphasis SJWs place on someone's racial makeup while simultaneously claiming to not be racist.
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Apr 17, 2014 23:18
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computer parts posted:Yeah, but that already happens today. Nobody discriminates against Tony Romo for anything but being a (supposedly) bad football player.
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Apr 18, 2014 11:10
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A Buttery Pastry posted:53% of Latin Americans are white according to the U.S. Census Bureau, and it's not like there aren't a bunch of already rather dark-skinned white Americans already. White means "of some European ancestry". It has nothing to do with skin color except that some ethnicities are naturally dark.
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Apr 18, 2014 13:17
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computer parts posted:White means "of some European ancestry".
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Apr 18, 2014 13:53
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Pycckuu posted:It's kind of funny how much emphasis SJWs place on someone's racial makeup while simultaneously claiming to not be racist. If you acknowledge race, you're probably a racist.
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Apr 18, 2014 15:10
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Actually, it doesn't. White includes people from the Middle East, Central Asia, and North Africa too. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that those groups are insignificant relative to the entire Hispanic population.
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Apr 18, 2014 15:21
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computer parts posted:I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that those groups are insignificant relative to the entire Hispanic population. There's actually a significant population in Mexico and Brazil of Lebanese decent. Bip Roberts fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Apr 18, 2014 |
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Apr 18, 2014 18:27
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Dusseldorf posted:There's actually a significant population in Mexico and Brazil of Lebanese decent. Are they a significant part of the migrants to the US, though? I mean I know there are white as gently caress Hispanics, I know a few myself that are indistinguishable from someone of (eg) German descent until you hear them talk. I'm just not convinced that there's enough of them that you can just magic away Hispanic as being white.
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Apr 18, 2014 18:30
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computer parts posted:Are they a significant part of the migrants to the US, though? The point is you can't magic hispanic as "white" because the racial police explicitly excluded people from latin american as "white" regardless of skin color. As I said, this was explicitly created (originally) to justify the discrimination of light skinned Cubans. The fact that Pittbull can pass the paperbag test is orthogonal to the current racial politics although there is certainly different treatment between light and dark skinned hispanics. Edit: this also leads to my theory that Pittbull is actually Billy Corgan a la the Bill Hicks/Alex Jones conspiracy. Bip Roberts fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Apr 18, 2014 |
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Apr 18, 2014 18:40
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computer parts posted:I mean I know there are white as gently caress Hispanics, I know a few myself that are indistinguishable from someone of (eg) German descent until you hear them talk. I'm just not convinced that there's enough of them that you can just magic away Hispanic as being white. Apparently though you think the white Hispanics are too dark-skinned to be integrated in this way, outside a few outliers?
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Apr 18, 2014 18:55
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A Buttery Pastry posted:
As a general rule, yes (assuming we're counting Mestizos/half-Native American Hispanics as white). e: Though I know that near the US border there are less indigenous-descended people, it's still a sizable part. computer parts fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Apr 18, 2014 |
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Apr 18, 2014 19:07
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