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anselm_eickhoff posted:Additionally to the global demand, there will be something that models very local demand (could just be "heatmaps" or something similar). Local demand, yes, that makes sense... but what about local supply? Again, the situation where there's plenty of global supply, but maybe there's only a single tiny road leading into one part of town and it's flooded with traffic 24/7.
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Apr 23, 2014 20:29
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Communist Zombie posted:When your doing videos in the future can you record the game while in a small resolution? Or atleast when your pointing fine UI details. Because in your latest video I had to switch it to HD resolution and the fullscreen for me to be able to easily read the RCI graphs. Ok, I might create a zoom-in effect in post-production. Shibawanko posted:Please include some kind of pedestrian infrastructure too! Most cities in the world have large pedestrian downtowns, the typical Simcity model where everything is next to a big road only exists in a few American cities. Yes I will! But first I will focus on only cars, just to make development simpler. Iunnrais posted:Local demand, yes, that makes sense... but what about local supply? Again, the situation where there's plenty of global supply, but maybe there's only a single tiny road leading into one part of town and it's flooded with traffic 24/7. Well, if a resident can't realistically get to any supply he needs he wont move there in the first place. This might sound like there will be a deadlock, but residents will be ok with having to travel long distances in the beginning. If their situation worsens because of traffic jams etc. they might move out, however.
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Apr 23, 2014 22:37
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Iunnrais posted:Local demand, yes, that makes sense... but what about local supply? Again, the situation where there's plenty of global supply, but maybe there's only a single tiny road leading into one part of town and it's flooded with traffic 24/7. I've always liked the idea of an agent-based simulation because it means stuff like this can just happen withought having to have complex statistical rules. If the food trucks are stuck in traffic then the supermarket just doesn't get its food delivery, rather than having to do take every little thing into account mathematically. Of course as SimCity recently showed so well, it also has to be efficient (so cities don't have to be ridiculously small) while also being smart (because if agents don't take the "best" options it just becomes frustrating). I feel like an agent sim has the possibility for much more interesting emergent behaviour but a statistical sim can be much more dependable. I'm excited to see a *decent* agent-based sim though.
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Apr 24, 2014 02:41
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This sounds awesome, can't wait to see more.
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Apr 24, 2014 03:47
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OP: First off awesome work. I subscribed to your blog on day one and you've made incredible progress. Its truly amazing. Regarding one of the previous comments about re-playability/challenge: In previous versions of Sim City, one of the driving factors of the game, (and arguably what made it fun) was the challenge of coaxing your city into developping the way you want it to by using the tools at your disposal. An example is, say you want a bustling skyrise metropolis, you needed to invest in a lot of infrastructure while balancing against available income and build up in your city in order to get to the point where you get the high tech and high commercial buildings that make that metropolis as you imagined it. Many games, as good as they are (Banished for example), lack that deep challenge making them somewhat uninteresting after a while. SC2013 also fell into that trap by basically just making everything easily available, so theres nothing to do after a few hours. Earlier on you somewhat spoke to this, but what is your plan for making things fun to play and still challenging after a few hours of city growth?
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Apr 24, 2014 05:57
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Is the current building/lot system more or less a very rough placeholder? I thought we were going to get more flexible procedural buildings that conformed to the roads/lots better. Right now I see the exact same problem Cities XL and Simcity 2013 had: ugly wasted strips of land due to rectangles trying to fill non-rectangular spaces. How can we make a dense european city if we can't have street-walls of buildings gracefully following the curves and angles of roads? Also the way you have houses generating is a bit odd. Houses generally have bigger back yards than front lawns. Generally there is a minimum front setback and then the rest is maximized back yard. Obviously these are serious nit-picks at this stage, but I need to be comforted and soothed that you have plans or intentions to improve all this in the future.
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Apr 25, 2014 01:26
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Baronjutter posted:. How can we make a dense european city if we can't have street-walls of buildings gracefully following the curves and angles of roads? Well, which is it that you want? Yards or eurotowns? As this is procedurally generated, maybe stuff like that could be manipulated by a slider. Your building codes and stuff, allowing areas of such and such population density to develop tightly packed, space maximising buildings. Less dense residential will have more yard and garden space, and lots will be more square to preserve green space. That's one thing I wanted to ask about, green space and parks. I love pocket parks and urban art. Will we be just plopping in park squares, or will we be able to designate green space and have it generate an appropriate park? Like a tiny park would just have a swing set and monkey bars, a big city park would have soccer pitches and trees, maybe nature trails, even a pond. Maybe base it off the region demands when it's built, allowing the attitudes of the day shape the park.
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Apr 25, 2014 14:56
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Baronjutter posted:Is the current building/lot system more or less a very rough placeholder? I thought we were going to get more flexible procedural buildings that conformed to the roads/lots better. Right now I see the exact same problem Cities XL and Simcity 2013 had: ugly wasted strips of land due to rectangles trying to fill non-rectangular spaces. How can we make a dense european city if we can't have street-walls of buildings gracefully following the curves and angles of roads? Yeah I hope there will be non-rectangular lots sooner rather than later. In the perfect world also have special rules to generate corner buildings at corners. Maybe even wedge-shaped buildings at sharp corners. And whenever a lot is generated, consider how much free road frontage is left, and if there would be too little then the lot is forced to grow to fill the remaining frontage.
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Apr 25, 2014 15:15
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Man, I'd love a city building game where you could get into building codes, zoning laws and housing ordinances and such. Imagine being a mayor and having to deal with managing the various citizen complaints and improving the local economy in time to make the next election! You try to get higher density and try to increase the height restrictions, but local citizens protest because it would destroy their property values. You want to expand your highway to improve commerce into the city and increase industry, but there's a stubborn homeowner that you have to try to use eminent domain on in order to get him out of the way! You're trying to switch to renewable energy by building windmills, but citizens concerned about noise and endangered birds try to block your attempts! That'd be amazing. 
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Apr 25, 2014 15:16
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DrSunshine posted:Man, I'd love a city building game where you could get into building codes, zoning laws and housing ordinances and such. Imagine being a mayor and having to deal with managing the various citizen complaints and improving the local economy in time to make the next election! You try to get higher density and try to increase the height restrictions, but local citizens protest because it would destroy their property values. You want to expand your highway to improve commerce into the city and increase industry, but there's a stubborn homeowner that you have to try to use eminent domain on in order to get him out of the way! You're trying to switch to renewable energy by building windmills, but citizens concerned about noise and endangered birds try to block your attempts! That sounds absolutely horrible.
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Apr 25, 2014 15:22
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PureRok posted:That sounds absolutely horrible. have you heard aboout people playing soldier in flashpoint and arma? or the people playing virtual air traffic controller for other people flying virtual planes?
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Apr 25, 2014 15:27
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PureRok posted:That sounds absolutely horrible. Ha! Fair enough, but I do play Paradox games. I guess that'd be sort of like "What if Paradox made a city-building sim?"
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Apr 25, 2014 15:34
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I don't want to have to deal with citizens groups and bureaucracy, but I do want access to all the fiddly bits that those groups would be influenced by (height limits, etc). Custom zoning will be the greatest thing ever. Only grocery stores here, general retail there, offices on top of retail in the other place, residential over shops somewhere else...
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Apr 25, 2014 16:13
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Suspect Bucket posted:Well, which is it that you want? Yards or eurotowns? Both?? Density in the core, yards in the suburbs. Like in a city.
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Apr 25, 2014 16:47
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Lots of questions, lots of answers:CADPAT posted:Regarding one of the previous comments about re-playability/challenge: In previous versions of Sim City, one of the driving factors of the game, (and arguably what made it fun) was the challenge of coaxing your city into developping the way you want it to by using the tools at your disposal. One major source of challenge will be the need to constantly generate more interest in the city, I talked a little about that in the video. First you will be able to use the first neighboring city as a source of growth. Then you will have to shift your city to become more self-sustained. Then you can afford or will be offered the opportunity to build new transport connectivity opetions like highways or railway. This opens you up to a wider market that you can use for further growth. Then you would have to really start managing the needs and problems of your by now quite large city. If you succeed you will be able to build seaports or airports, opening your city up for global trade, immigration and tourism. This constitutes the end-game and is also the hardest part, you now have to manage a whole metropolis. This whole path is of course full of smaller budget, city style, and other interesting decisions. Baronjutter posted:Is the current building/lot system more or less a very rough placeholder? I thought we were going to get more flexible procedural buildings that conformed to the roads/lots better. Right now I see the exact same problem Cities XL and Simcity 2013 had: ugly wasted strips of land due to rectangles trying to fill non-rectangular spaces. How can we make a dense european city if we can't have street-walls of buildings gracefully following the curves and angles of roads? nielsm posted:Yeah I hope there will be non-rectangular lots sooner rather than later. In the perfect world also have special rules to generate corner buildings at corners. Maybe even wedge-shaped buildings at sharp corners. Yes the procedural building and lot generation will get a lot smarter and interesting. The current implementation is really the simplest example that I had time for. Non-rectangular spaces and special rules for corner-buildings are something that I already have planned. Achieving beautiful eruopean building-walls and street blocks (like we also have here in Munich) is one of my personal goals. I hope that comforts you. Suspect Bucket posted:Well, which is it that you want? Yards or eurotowns? As this is procedurally generated, maybe stuff like that could be manipulated by a slider. Your building codes and stuff, allowing areas of such and such population density to develop tightly packed, space maximising buildings. Less dense residential will have more yard and garden space, and lots will be more square to preserve green space. Or, as someone said, have both in one city. Yes, there will be a park-zone that works exactly like you describe. You will designate it and lay foot or bike-paths through it, then it will be filled procedurally. DrSunshine posted:Man, I'd love a city building game where you could get into building codes, zoning laws and housing ordinances and such. Imagine being a mayor and having to deal with managing the various citizen complaints and improving the local economy in time to make the next election! You try to get higher density and try to increase the height restrictions, but local citizens protest because it would destroy their property values. You want to expand your highway to improve commerce into the city and increase industry, but there's a stubborn homeowner that you have to try to use eminent domain on in order to get him out of the way! You're trying to switch to renewable energy by building windmills, but citizens concerned about noise and endangered birds try to block your attempts! While I don't aim for that complexity of politics for the main game, mods would certainly allow for it! PureRok posted:That sounds absolutely horrible. See, this is why it's important that the game is as adaptive as possible, while still having a focused, designed core experience. anselm_eickhoff fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Apr 25, 2014 |
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Apr 25, 2014 20:53
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What about tunnels and bridges, will those be buildable anywhere?
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Apr 25, 2014 21:13
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Poil posted:What about tunnels and bridges, will those be buildable anywhere? Yes, you'll be able to change road height everywhere, tunnels and bridges will be created as needed.
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Apr 25, 2014 21:24
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Thank you for the answers. Any time I have any anxiety over the direction of the game you swoop in and sooth. I'd love to deal with citizen groups and poo poo, they're a huge if not primary force for why cities are how they are. A city designed and run by a god-mayor would look nothing like the cities of the real world. But a lot of people don't find that fun and want to design their perfect dream city. I think some sort of balance could be done though. You're still a god mayor but not listening to your citizen's desires could reduce your "Happiness" or attractiveness of the city. Maybe something almost like the awful "classes" in City Life, or at least the idea of different types of people that you can attract to your city. Have your classic suburbanite that doesn't give a poo poo about good libraries or museums or transit, they just want a big house with a big yard for cheap, infrastructure to drive everywhere, and cheap big-box retail, becomes unhappy if they can't find a cheap detached house to live in. Have your typical urban dweller who doesn't care so much about having a yard or detached house, but really wants amenities and diversity within walking/transit distance, becomes unhappy if they have to live in a "culture desert" without transit. And so on filling out all the demographic stereotypes. Cities would be rated by attractiveness to these demographics which would effect the types of people that move to your city. Or just really any system that modeled that different people have different tastes and needs, and the design and "culture" of your city can over time influence the balance of those tastes. If I make a totally sprawling city with nothing but big-box stores and suburbs a lot of people are going to be fine with that and happy to have a big cheap house and a low cost of living, but creatives and a lot of young people are going to find the place repulsive. If I try to make some car-free smugtopia obviously a lot of people are going to love it, but there will always be a segment that doesn't give a poo poo about the 20 world class restaurants and fair-trade organic sock market and just want a quiet house with a garden and a garage for their minivan. Also I assume resources/food and so on won't just be as easy as zoning more land for it, it will have to be the right land. Most cities don't get a majority of their food from local farms, and it's incredibly rare for industries in a city to have any raw materials in the same region let alone same city. I assume maps will have fertile terrain and resource deposits and such? And it will be entirely possible to just not farm or mine at all in a city and simply import? Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Apr 25, 2014 |
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Apr 25, 2014 21:38
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I'd love it if, like Simcity 4, it had a lot of options for building rural areas, including forests and whatnot. Maybe just look at how they did plop placement in that game and copy it, being able to paint the landscape with importable 2D sprites would do the trick.
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Apr 25, 2014 22:15
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Constructor modelled a city with individual classes of people who complained about their surroundings etc etc. The whole game was a huge balancing act, and it worked pretty well, but it was a full-time job sometimes just trying to keep everyone happy.
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Apr 25, 2014 22:33
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Some of the tile based decoration systems developed for 4 were absolute works of art but I'm not sure a system like that could really translate over to a 3d environment like this. But I would love a variety of texture brushes and trees and such to really go nuts painting the landscape. Either for free at creation or for a cost later. But we're talking about a game that might not even get textures for its buildings, a detailed landscape decorating system might not be in the cards. But speaking of buildings, Anselm have you ever played around wit "City Engine" ? It proves you can do fairly nice looking procedural buildings that really conform to the landscape and roads. And their system for the user to add new sets and rules is actually fairly accessible too. Something like this down the line would be rad, along with how easy it would be for modders to add their own buildings or building/texture rule sets.  Obviously this is an extremely expensive professional tool created by a large team, but it shows what is absolutely possible with procedural systems. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFRqSJFp-I0 The euro-blocks and building editing in this video make me pee a little. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Apr 25, 2014 |
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Apr 25, 2014 22:33
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This is looking really cool so far. I'm wondering, do you have ideas about reasonable upper bounds on city scale? Not just in terms of residents, but also spatially. How much area will you expect the largest player cities to cover? How far out will we be able to zoom? And how long do you think it might take a player to grow a city that runs up against the limits of feasibility? I understand if you can't answer any of that because it's too early to tell, of course. But if Citybound can handle a city like Hong Kong or Los Angeles, and make such a city still be fun to play with, it'll probably be my favorite game of all time.
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Apr 25, 2014 22:36
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anselm_eickhoff posted:Yes the procedural building and lot generation will get a lot smarter and interesting. This is awesome news. After Simcity I didn't think I'd see another decent city builder for the next few years, let alone an indie one. Sent a few bucks your way too 
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Apr 25, 2014 23:09
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Shibawanko posted:I'd love it if, like Simcity 4, it had a lot of options for building rural areas, including forests and whatnot. Maybe just look at how they did plop placement in that game and copy it, being able to paint the landscape with importable 2D sprites would do the trick. I think I can do better than 2D sprites for trees. Nition posted:Constructor modelled a city with individual classes of people who complained about their surroundings etc etc. The whole game was a huge balancing act, and it worked pretty well, but it was a full-time job sometimes just trying to keep everyone happy. Thanks for the tip. The UI-Sounds alone are amazing  Baronjutter posted:Some of the tile based decoration systems developed for 4 were absolute works of art but I'm not sure a system like that could really translate over to a 3d environment like this. But I would love a variety of texture brushes and trees and such to really go nuts painting the landscape. Either for free at creation or for a cost later. But we're talking about a game that might not even get textures for its buildings, a detailed landscape decorating system might not be in the cards. City Engine is one of my main inspirations, most of my ideas for the procedural building generation stem from their research papers. It is now the main goal of Citybound to make you pee a little. VostokProgram posted:This is looking really cool so far. I'm wondering, do you have ideas about reasonable upper bounds on city scale? Not just in terms of residents, but also spatially. How much area will you expect the largest player cities to cover? How far out will we be able to zoom? And how long do you think it might take a player to grow a city that runs up against the limits of feasibility? It is indeed hard to say this early on, but I can say that space alone won't be a limit, just how much you put on it in total. Based off my prototype, which could handle 50.000 simultaneous cars in realtime, I hope to at least double that. From my data oracle (which is actually a person) I get the fact that peak number of cars at a time in a city is about 10% of the population. So I hope that cities with 1 million inhabitants would be feasible. If you would be ok with using one simulation agent for several citizens that could be more. Also if you are more optimistic in my ability to optimize my algorithms. Avocados posted:This is awesome news. After Simcity I didn't think I'd see another decent city builder for the next few years, let alone an indie one. Sent a few bucks your way too Much appreciated!
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Apr 26, 2014 00:25
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DrSunshine posted:Man, I'd love a city building game where you could get into building codes, zoning laws and housing ordinances and such. Imagine being a mayor and having to deal with managing the various citizen complaints and improving the local economy in time to make the next election! You try to get higher density and try to increase the height restrictions, but local citizens protest because it would destroy their property values. You want to expand your highway to improve commerce into the city and increase industry, but there's a stubborn homeowner that you have to try to use eminent domain on in order to get him out of the way! You're trying to switch to renewable energy by building windmills, but citizens concerned about noise and endangered birds try to block your attempts! This would be the coolest game. This is the kind of thing I want in a city builder. That being said, I think it should be left out of the base Citybound (as already mentioned) and left up to the modding community. Can't wait to mod in something like this plus Americana.
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Apr 26, 2014 00:46
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Anselm, I was wondering if you could saturate and contrast the colors of everything a little more. My eyes just do not like the bleached look of the game. If it was a visual setting that'd be great too
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Apr 26, 2014 04:21
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DrSunshine posted:Man, I'd love a city building game where you could get into building codes, zoning laws and housing ordinances and such. Imagine being a mayor and having to deal with managing the various citizen complaints and improving the local economy in time to make the next election! You try to get higher density and try to increase the height restrictions, but local citizens protest because it would destroy their property values. You want to expand your highway to improve commerce into the city and increase industry, but there's a stubborn homeowner that you have to try to use eminent domain on in order to get him out of the way! You're trying to switch to renewable energy by building windmills, but citizens concerned about noise and endangered birds try to block your attempts! American Mayor Sim, where you manage your sex scandals and backroom dealings and don't give two shits about where a road is built outside of making sure the contract goes to your cousin. I'd play it.
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Apr 26, 2014 04:34
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:American Mayor Sim, where you manage your sex scandals and backroom dealings and don't give two shits about where a road is built outside of making sure the contract goes to your cousin. I'd play it. A combination of Crusader Kings II and Transport Tycoon.
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Apr 26, 2014 06:08
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I just wanted you to know: we're all counting on you.
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Apr 26, 2014 09:48
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anselm_eickhoff posted:I think I can do better than 2D sprites for trees. It's true that it would look better to have everything in 3D, but consider the ease of creating resources as well. SC4 had mods which let you place things like tiny rocks and small flowers in large quantities. Of course you're not really at that stage of development yet, but having the tiniest things in 2D might make it easier to create large amounts of mods for stuff like that, and displaying a lot of different poo poo on screen at a time, which is what makes SC4 look great even today. It's up to you though. I'd be happy with just a functional and good city sim and I'm glad you're making one. On the other hand, I also really like the minimal look of Freetrain:  Maybe something like this is easier to develop for a single person, since it wouldn't need as many textures and stuff like that, and it would still look good. Shibawanko fucked around with this message at 10:01 on Apr 26, 2014 |
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Apr 26, 2014 09:57
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woah is that like an a-train re-make? I never really got fully into the whole transport tycoon series but I loved a-train. Although man some really questionable building choices there. Yes, this neighbourhood needs 100 gray windowless towers with a giant P at the top.
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Apr 26, 2014 21:02
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Baronjutter posted:woah is that like an a-train re-make? I never really got fully into the whole transport tycoon series but I loved a-train. Although man some really questionable building choices there. Yes, this neighbourhood needs 100 gray windowless towers with a giant P at the top. It's an open source a-train game, but it's unfinished and I think you can only kind of paint landscapes and do limited transport stuff.
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Apr 26, 2014 22:43
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Baronjutter posted:woah is that like an a-train re-make? I never really got fully into the whole transport tycoon series but I loved a-train. Although man some really questionable building choices there. Yes, this neighbourhood needs 100 gray windowless towers with a giant P at the top. I'm sorry but do houses where you live not have bright red and purple roofs?
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Apr 27, 2014 08:08
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Shibawanko posted:It's an open source a-train game, but it's unfinished and I think you can only kind of paint landscapes and do limited transport stuff. drat, sucks that it never got finished. Checking out the websites about it leads to a lot of dead links. I never liked most of the post a-train 1 games. I could never get my region to grow or develop. I tired the new 3d ones and holy poo poo could you possibly design a worse interface and feedback system? I just want to shuffle around building materials and passengers and watch little houses pop up and then invest in some buildings. A-train was a cool game and actually a really good business sim for japanese railways. In japan, to keep ticket prices down or something, railways can only earn so much profit from ticket sales, but there aren't restrictions on other sources of income. So, they channel a ton of their railway income into realestate development as the capital expense of that is a write off rather than their railway income being taxed to poo poo. So just like in a-train, you'll have the railway owning a mall or apartment complex or office building near the station. I loved a-train because you could directly build most of the buildings in the game. Want to jump start a new suburb? Plop a bunch of apartments near your station and now you've got riders for your new train line, and the area has been stimulated for more development. Know you plan on making a certain area into a downtown? Buy up that land now for cheap and make sure you have first dibs on developing the areas first major retail and office projects. It's not just private railways that do this though, some cities actually get involved in construction as well. I've always wanted a city builder where as god-mayor you could invest in buildings directly your self. Plop down some city-owned apartments to stimulate an area or create some affordable housing. That sort of thing. Of course then you'd need a whole a-train style profit/loss system for individual buildings. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Apr 27, 2014 |
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Apr 27, 2014 17:30
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Yeah, in most stations in Tokyo they have a big JR skyscraper sitting on top of the actual tracks. I never knew why until know though, I did hear once that because revenue in Tokyo and other big cities is potentially so high, the government forces JR to also develop rural lines and take the loss for less profitable ones in exchange for allowing it to run the Yamanote line and such. Will Citybound have trains? Maybe it would be cool if there was sort of an a-trainlike system to it as well.
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Apr 28, 2014 06:23
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Or Open TTD but for metro/suburban networks instead of intercity. Will citybound be set in a particular time period or just be a generic modern setting? I suppose modders could make alternate building styles and modes of transportation for earlier (or future) eras.
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Apr 28, 2014 07:49
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anselm_eickhoff posted:It is indeed hard to say this early on, but I can say that space alone won't be a limit, just how much you put on it in total. I'd be fine with bundling multiple people together under single agents, honestly. I don't think you need to see every single person represented on-map all the time. If the limit on size is your traffic system, then you could probably gain a lot just by making it the norm for two or three people who work together to live in the same apartment building and carpool.
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Apr 29, 2014 05:12
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drunkill posted:Or Open TTD but for metro/suburban networks instead of intercity. I think it'd be cool to start in the 1800s with horses and carts and pedestrians only, and evolve technological advances at your own pace. SC2k's method of tying advance to actual years doesn't work, because you go through FAR too much time in a city sim to get stuff done. But if you could hit a button to advance the simulated era (and bring with it cars [or flying cars!], power plants, etc) I think it'd be perfect.
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Apr 29, 2014 15:40
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Iunnrais posted:But if you could hit a button to advance the simulated era (and bring with it cars [or flying cars!], power plants, etc) I think it'd be perfect. Or maybe have it a bit random. Every 20 or 30 in game years, something like Velocipede Craze Strikes City, or Citizen Buys Motorcar, Scares Horse. Any sort of transit building could scale as well, going from a stable, to bike shed, to garage, to ELev charger.
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Apr 29, 2014 17:02
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So what happens when you finally get to modern day or the end ? Just keep playing forever stuck in that time period? What if you want a map filled metropolis set in the 1920's ? My main problem with any city game with time advancement is that it has an end.
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Apr 29, 2014 17:09
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