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Fearless
Sep 3, 2003

DRINK MORE MOXIE


Based on what a few of my friends had to say on the subject, Canadian Leopards usually put the fear of a risen Jesus into the Taliban in Afghanistan. Aside from colossal IEDs, they didn't have regular access to anything that could really wreck one.

Which is funny, because about ten years ago we were going to get rid of them entirely and focus on the whole IFV concept as it was widely held that MBTs were outdated notions. I remember being at a conference in grad school wherein an artillery officer explained at great length that because our likely enemies don't use tanks, we don't need to either. An armour officer neatly shot that down with "That's the best reason to deploy heavy armour. We don't get bonus points for fighting fair, just avoidable deaths."

Fearless fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Apr 23, 2014

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priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.
Those CF leopard 1s (aka C2s) would have been super fun in the summer months what with no A/C fitted! Cooling vests to help you not die but that's about it.

I think some of the Leopard 2s got A/C fitted, luxury!

StandardVC10
Feb 6, 2007

This avatar now 50% more dark mode compliant

Taerkar posted:

A lot of the Cold War-era armor before the introduction of composites was based on the mostly correct idea that RHA just wasn't suitable for tank armor anymore. Studies also showed that there was a remarkably small area of a tank that would normally get hit anyways (Upper Front Glacis to turret) so many of the post-war designs focused on making that more resilient. Severe slopes and low profiles to minimize exposure. Sometimes with pretty thick turret fronts as well.

Pardon my ignorance, RHA?

Propagandalf
Dec 6, 2008

itchy itchy itchy itchy
Rolled homogenous armor.

http://videos.howstuffworks.com/discovery/35895-howstuffworks-show-episode-12-rolled-homogenous-armor-video.htm

Arrath
Apr 14, 2011


StandardVC10 posted:

Pardon my ignorance, RHA?

Rolled homogeneous armour, ie big ole plates of metal.

e:welp.

Mr Crustacean
May 13, 2009

one (1) robosexual
avatar, as ordered

priznat posted:

Those CF leopard 1s (aka C2s) would have been super fun in the summer months what with no A/C fitted! Cooling vests to help you not die but that's about it.

I think some of the Leopard 2s got A/C fitted, luxury!

The MGS strykers also had that problem of no AC and the crew also haing to use cooling vests as well as the electronics overheating :v:

Mortabis
Jul 8, 2010

I am stupid
I remember reading somewhere that the Stryker MGS got cancelled or hasn't been deployed in the numbers originally intended, is that true? Information on it is surprisingly scarce. It doesn't help that half the google hits for anything Stryker-related are from Sparky.

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.
There was a plan with the CF to replace the Leopards with MGSes because who needs tanks etc. But a combination of a change of govt and the war in Afghanistan changed those plans for the better.

Seems like a goofy design with the basically unprotected turret with an auto loader out there. What if it jams, get out and fix it! Also I read something how it was really uncomfortable to be in it when firing the 105mm.

hogmartin
Mar 27, 2007

wdarkk posted:

There was a letter attached to the instruments dropped right before the Nagasaki bomb with a letter to Japanese atomic scientist Ryokichi Sagane basically saying "tell your bosses about what a nuclear bomb means and how hosed they are".

Source

A scientist, who had worked in the US, mentioned by name in a letter dropped next to a vaporized city? Holy poo poo, sounds like a prime way to win a one-way trip to the worst Kempeitai party room there ever was. Good thing for him it apparently wasn't found until after the war.

Mazz
Dec 12, 2012

Orion, this is Sperglord Actual.
Come on home.

priznat posted:

There was a plan with the CF to replace the Leopards with MGSes because who needs tanks etc. But a combination of a change of govt and the war in Afghanistan changed those plans for the better.

Seems like a goofy design with the basically unprotected turret with an auto loader out there. What if it jams, get out and fix it! Also I read something how it was really uncomfortable to be in it when firing the 105mm.



There's some great armor stories around from the COIN roles they got put in, like a story about Abrams HEAT rounds more safe then the commander's .50 for room clearing, because .50 liked to travel through walls and still be lethal several rooms/structures away.

Mazz fucked around with this message at 05:16 on Apr 24, 2014

Pimpmust
Oct 1, 2008

Geez, that's why you put on a bigger turret.



B-but my scout :qq:

Shut up general, shut up.

Psion
Dec 13, 2002

eVeN I KnOw wHaT CoRnEr gAs iS

Mortabis posted:

I remember reading somewhere that the Stryker MGS got cancelled or hasn't been deployed in the numbers originally intended, is that true? Information on it is surprisingly scarce. It doesn't help that half the google hits for anything Stryker-related are from Sparky.

I believe the Army curtailed their buy pretty hard, but it's not cancelled since they did buy and deploy some. I've seen them in person actually - just driving down the highway, a convoy of some personnel carriers and one Stryker MGS rolling in the right lane.

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

Psion posted:

I believe the Army curtailed their buy pretty hard, but it's not cancelled since they did buy and deploy some. I've seen them in person actually - just driving down the highway, a convoy of some personnel carriers and one Stryker MGS rolling in the right lane.

Like, literally rolling over into the ditch? LAV III speciality!

Psion
Dec 13, 2002

eVeN I KnOw wHaT CoRnEr gAs iS

priznat posted:

Like, literally rolling over into the ditch? LAV III speciality!

No, just driving down I-5. They wisely had the MGS gun locked down probably to prevent that. :v:

Doctor Grape Ape
Aug 26, 2005

Dammit Doc, I just bought this for you 3 months ago. Try and keep it around for a bit longer this time.

Pimpmust posted:

B-but my scout :qq:

Shut up general, shut up.

But uh, it's a troop carrier, general.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQ2lO3ieBA

Mazz
Dec 12, 2012

Orion, this is Sperglord Actual.
Come on home.
Aaaaand we come full circle.



To be fair, that's supposedly just a larger RWS which means you don't cut into the troop compartment/capacity like the Bradley did, although I can't find too much about it or any internal pictures.

Mazz fucked around with this message at 06:39 on Apr 24, 2014

Davin Valkri
Apr 8, 2011

Maybe you're weighing the moral pros and cons but let me assure you that OH MY GOD
SHOOT ME IN THE GODDAMNED FACE
WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?!
Speaking of the Bradley, what, if anything, did the M2A1 and up versions do to...if not "fix" then cut down on the silliness of the original boondoggle? Or is the whole line compromised and therefore we should move to Strykers as soon as production permits?

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

Davin Valkri posted:

Speaking of the Bradley, what, if anything, did the M2A1 and up versions do to...if not "fix" then cut down on the silliness of the original boondoggle? Or is the whole line compromised and therefore we should move to Strykers as soon as production permits?

I think the plan is to go with something called the "GCV", one of the competitors being this sexy little turd right here



Look at this fuckin crazy flipperbaby

Heavier than an M1 abrams to boot

Probably shelved due to budget cuts anyway

priznat fucked around with this message at 06:51 on Apr 24, 2014

Mazz
Dec 12, 2012

Orion, this is Sperglord Actual.
Come on home.

priznat posted:

Probably shelved due to budget cuts anyway

Yep, already happened in the 2015 budget IIRC.

Arrath
Apr 14, 2011


The hell is that under the .50? A rack of mini missles?

hailthefish
Oct 24, 2010

Arrath posted:

The hell is that under the .50? A rack of mini missles?

Probably. All this future concept poo poo is basically like paying a bunch of third graders infinity-dollars for the doodles on the backs of their homework assignments.

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

Arrath posted:

The hell is that under the .50? A rack of mini missles?

Active Defense System maybe?

Mortabis
Jul 8, 2010

I am stupid

priznat posted:

I think the plan is to go with something called the "GCV", one of the competitors being this sexy little turd right here



Look at this fuckin crazy flipperbaby

Heavier than an M1 abrams to boot

Probably shelved due to budget cuts anyway

It's been cancelled, but the notion was to have an IFV that's armored like a tank (see for example the Namer) but also armed with missiles and an autocannon and with capacity for 9 men (as opposed to the Bradley's 6).

My understanding is that the Bradley is actually doing alright now aside from being a bit underpowered.

Memento
Aug 25, 2009


Bleak Gremlin
BBC News - Russian fighter jets "breach Japan airspace"

I assume they were just dicking around. Russia's still cool, right?

FrozenVent
May 1, 2009

The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

Memento posted:

BBC News - Russian fighter jets "breach Japan airspace"

I assume they were just dicking around. Russia's still cool, right?

Have you been watching the news recently? Cold War 2: Bear Harder is about to start.

Memento
Aug 25, 2009


Bleak Gremlin

FrozenVent posted:

Have you been watching the news recently? Cold War 2: Bear Harder is about to start.

Yeah sorry that was basically my joke, I'm just bad at them.

This time the Cold War's going to be real cold, mostly to the people in Eastern Europe who need SovietRussian natural gas piped in to not freeze to death :ohdear:

Dietrich
Sep 11, 2001

Memento posted:

Yeah sorry that was basically my joke, I'm just bad at them.

This time the Cold War's going to be real cold, mostly to the people in Eastern Europe who need SovietRussian natural gas piped in to not freeze to death :ohdear:

Is there some rule about having to host an Olympic Games before being a complete gently caress-head to the world?

Fearless
Sep 3, 2003

DRINK MORE MOXIE


Dietrich posted:

Is there some rule about having to host an Olympic Games before being a complete gently caress-head to the world?

Berlin, Salt Lake City and Sochi all seem to indicate that it is so.

bewbies
Sep 23, 2003

Fun Shoe

hailthefish posted:

Probably. All this future concept poo poo is basically like paying a bunch of third graders infinity-dollars for the doodles on the backs of their homework assignments.

NO IT ISNT IT IS A VERY PRECISE AND DIFFICULT PROCESS

Also I made this thing as a joke some months back and someone actually thought it was a serious thing (to include the text) and it wound up in relatively late drafts of a couple of CONOPS. I don't...think...it ever got traced back to me. ...

Taerkar
Dec 7, 2002

kind of into it, really

Arrath posted:

The hell is that under the .50? A rack of mini missles?

You have to have at least 4 or else they can still be dodged!

Akion
May 7, 2006
Grimey Drawer

Fearless posted:

Berlin, Salt Lake City and Sochi all seem to indicate that it is so.

Well! We've got all this "Political Good Will". Time to spend it!

Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye

The thread's offical unofficial blog has reviewed "Command and Control" and it is good. The author also recommends another book to go with it: the Titian II handbook.

e:

Shithead Deluxe posted:

Imagine having to play against those clods in a tabletop wargame :(

Imagine the smugness you could respond with though: "OK, your tanks are better than mine on a 1 to 1 basis. Here's the thing, though: I have complete air superiority, so every time your magnificent super tanks move in anything less than terrible weather, I'm gonna hammer them with my air force. Also, I outnumber you enormously. Look! My infantry divisions often have armor units attached that outnumber the tanks in your Panzer divisions! Also, you are out of gas. Also also, I know you want to do a fighting retreat to those open areas where your tanks can use their large firepower advantage but der Fuhrer just ordered you to *HOLD THE LINE* at all costs, which happens to be this countryside where our swarms of well-trained infantry have the advantage (as you know because we spent the last week slaughtering you there.)" :smugdog:

Nebakenezzer fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Apr 24, 2014

Taerkar
Dec 7, 2002

kind of into it, really

Hell, most of their tanks weren't even better 1:1. The Pz IV was outclassed by the later model M4s and T34s, the IS was better than the German heavies even. Even the Panther apparently had trouble breaking even.

Q_res
Oct 29, 2005

We're fucking built for this shit!
Actually, comparing contemporary variants the Pz IV was pretty much always inferior to the T-34 and only ever (at best) on equal footing with the Sherman. Hell, until later in the war when it started getting the longer 75s it was inferior in the tank-on-tank role to the Panzer III.

Kenlon
Jun 27, 2003

Digitus Impudicus

Q_res posted:

Actually, comparing contemporary variants the Pz IV was pretty much always inferior to the T-34 and only ever (at best) on equal footing with the Sherman. Hell, until later in the war when it started getting the longer 75s it was inferior in the tank-on-tank role to the Panzer III.

Tank-on-tank was never the primary role for armor in WW2 - they spent a hell of a lot more time blowing the poo poo out of PBI. . .

Pimpmust
Oct 1, 2008

Both contractors claim their designs are below the 70-84 tons expectation of what the GCV will weigh. BAE's vehicle weighs 60-70 tons, based on modular armor package, and a 20 percent margin for weight increase the Army has planned for future upgrades would bring it up to 84 tons.

The vehicle burns 20 percent less fuel while running, with 4.61 gallons (17.45 liters) per hour used while stationary.

When your APCIFV weights more than a Tiger II you know you got a winner :allears:

Best part is that the Namer used in comparison looks like the first version of the Bradley (without the turret)

Q_res
Oct 29, 2005

We're fucking built for this shit!

Kenlon posted:

Tank-on-tank was never the primary role for armor in WW2 - they spent a hell of a lot more time blowing the poo poo out of PBI. . .

I know that, but did you happen to read the conversation that lead up to that post? That seemed to be pretty clearly the context of it.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Taerkar posted:

Hell, most of their tanks weren't even better 1:1. The Pz IV was outclassed by the later model M4s and T34s, the IS was better than the German heavies even. Even the Panther apparently had trouble breaking even.

Q_res posted:

Actually, comparing contemporary variants the Pz IV was pretty much always inferior to the T-34 and only ever (at best) on equal footing with the Sherman. Hell, until later in the war when it started getting the longer 75s it was inferior in the tank-on-tank role to the Panzer III.

I don't want to bog this thread down in WW2 tank chat, but - like everything else - you have to keep in mind the contexts from which the various tank designs emerged, their intended uses, and what the situation was like when they were first fielded. The PzIV was a profoundly pre-war design and it's a minor miracle it was able to be as effectively upgraded as it was. Saying that it was outclassed in 1944 is a bit like complaining that the 109 was showing its age at the same time. The real difference is that the US didn't constantly try to improve on the Lee for the entirety of the war. The soviets had a similar thing going on with the T34 as the germans did with the MkIV, but that was a later design as well which gave it a bit of a leg up in that respect.

Same deal comparing the IS line to german heavies. How do you begin to compare a design family that emerged in 1944 to something like the Tiger, which came out in 1942?

It's not as simple as Russian > German or German > everyone else. You need to look at specific times in the war and look at who was fielding what to have any kind of grip on what the actual AFV situation was like in the field. Doctrine and tactics also come into it in a huge way. German armor was pretty piss poor compared to contemporary foreign designs from 1939-1941, but doctrinal and tactical differences between how various militaries employed their tanks led to some pretty amazing results for the Germans. It might not be true that the Germans invented Blitzkrieg or that they were undisputed masters of mechanized warfare, but there's also a core of truth to their having a pretty solid advantage as a result of how they actually employed their assets in the field.

Q_res
Oct 29, 2005

We're fucking built for this shit!

Cyrano4747 posted:

Saying that it was outclassed in 1944

I'm actually saying it was outclassed well before then.

Though to be fair, much like the M4A1, early Pz IVs were built as infantry support tanks, not really intended to fight other tanks head-on.

Q_res fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Apr 24, 2014

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Doctor Grape Ape
Aug 26, 2005

Dammit Doc, I just bought this for you 3 months ago. Try and keep it around for a bit longer this time.
Mercy sakes alive, looks like we got us a convoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8_Rl0pbkUk

Well Vlad shot the line and he went for broke with a thousand screamin trucks. And eleven long haired friends of Stalin in a olive drab micro-bus.

CONVOY

e: They even have a great big bear in the air :haw:

Doctor Grape Ape fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Apr 24, 2014

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