|
Oasx posted:I must admit I don't quite understand a need to even limit resting, but then again I used save game editors in all the IE games, having a game be a challenge is clearly not a priority for me. Personally I've gone back and forth on the issue myself. I find myself hording too much if I feel the resources are too limited which in turn usually turns most boss battles into just burning through all the crap I've stored up and end up with a million low level health potions/etc in my backpack by the end, but I also see the appeal of not being able to get to 100% and abilities between each fight too to make it into more of a delving into the depths type of experience.
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2014 08:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 19, 2024 14:29 |
|
|
It's a balancing issue. If you allow players to go into every single fight in succession with 100% health and per-rest resources, then you have to balance all those fights under the assumption that the party is at full strength. That in turns demand per-fight resting (which gets irritating with buffs and the like), and practically requires a reload when, say, a magically terrified CNPC flees to an area where he alerts the next batch of enemies in sequence. You balance those fights for parties at half-strength and it's too easy. You never get the feeling of fighting through attrition, you're always a wrecking ball, and you never squeak by in a way that creates tension - you can just barely win a fight, but whatever losses you take are unlikely to create problems or disadvantages afterward. In BG2 all you needed was a character capable of casting Raise Dead and Lesser Restoration, in the NWN games they directly remove all pretense of fight-to-fight continuity save through condition stat damage that usually required a rest to reverse, provided you had the right CNPC with you. There are a couple of ways around this. One is to make resting difficult or expensive, and not just in the sense of making players roll for random encounters, or making certain areas rest-banned zones (that never stopped anyone in BG2 after all, you just reloaded or backtracked). Another is to go the Dragon Age route and incorporate combat failure penalties that can't be slept off and that players have to literally pay a cost to remove. It sounds like PoE is doing the former, in a sense. Really it's like a softer version of Hitman's save scarcity. You make the players consider when they want to give themselves a buffer, because once they do they lose something. Basic Chunnel fucked around with this message at 09:06 on Apr 29, 2014 |
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2014 08:59
|
|
|
It'll make the game much less tedious for me, I used to rest all the time in BG even leaving and re entering dungeons to do it. If you get jumped by mobs that was awesome too as it meant more XP and you could just rest again after, and maybe get some more free XP.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2014 09:38
|
|
|
Darkhold posted:Personally I've gone back and forth on the issue myself. I find myself hording too much if I feel the resources are too limited which in turn usually turns most boss battles into just burning through all the crap I've stored up and end up with a million low level health potions/etc in my backpack by the end, but I also see the appeal of not being able to get to 100% and abilities between each fight too to make it into more of a delving into the depths type of experience. I used to be a consumable hoarder, but DnD Online cured me. It's just so much fun knowing you've got extremely limited amounts of resting (1/2 usually) at specific points and you can't backtrack without resetting the dungeon. Suddenly you love all your consumables. Even Spell Scrolls (aka, money drops for a Baldurs Gate player, since you never use those) became awesome (you mean I can detect secret doors and magic missile?!) and Use Magic Device became a genuinely good skill. Hopefully Pillars can get the balance between rare resting and consumable drop/reward rates right the same way.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2014 12:52
|
|
|
Oasx posted:And invent words like save scumming to really show how wrong it is to play a game to have fun. Incidentally, this isn't how the term "save scumming" came to be - it originates from roguelikes (specifically nethack), where permadeath (ironman runs, more or less) and level randomization are core game mechanics and multiple users' scores are tracked on a single server, and a "wizard mode" where the user can resurrect at will (but scores don't count) is also a core game feature to allow people to learn the game. Save-scumming there in its original sense involves copying your game file to another directory and manually restoring it when you die, circumventing the permadeath mechanic and also revealing the location of a bunch of stuff in your current dungeon level (everything you found) and identifying any unidentified objects you were carrying. And if you ascend this way, you've cheated and screwed over other users of whatever server you're playing on. The migration of this terminology from a context where it makes sense to other contexts (single-player games with quicksave and quickload buttons) is stupid - I dislike playing that way and haven't done so since I was a child, but if that floats someone's boat then more power to them.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2014 12:54
|
|
|
DatonKallandor posted:I used to be a consumable hoarder, but DnD Online cured me. It's just so much fun knowing you've got extremely limited amounts of resting (1/2 usually) at specific points and you can't backtrack without resetting the dungeon. Suddenly you love all your consumables. Even Spell Scrolls (aka, money drops for a Baldurs Gate player, since you never use those) became awesome (you mean I can detect secret doors and magic missile?!) and Use Magic Device became a genuinely good skill. I'm also a rehabilitated consumable hoarder and I was surprised how much easier games became when you actually used the items it gave you.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2014 14:24
|
|
|
Rope Kid I hope you guys are deriving your NPC names from legitimate linguistic sources... such as this delightful website. http://jetfuel.metalbat.com/blah/badass.pl Sample: GRAVEFIRE: SPAWN of the FLAMEGRAVE FIRESPAWN DEMONSHROUD: SLAYER of the BONE# FLAMEDRAGON GUNSLAYER: THUNDER of the ICEGUN SLAYERTHUNDER EDIT: THIS ONE IS PERFECT THRASHMAGE: THE SOULENING
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2014 14:45
|
|
|
Different from the spirit eater system of Mask of the Betrayer, in this case, the players have a choice to adjust it through the difficulty settings. So, if some people don't like tight resource management, they'd be better off not starting their games with Expert mode. For, IIRC, if you start a game with Expert mode, it cannot be changed during the course of the game. Judging from the fact that the current limit number varies from two to six, I presume the latter would be much looser. Speaking of the spirit eater system, it somehow made my play-through of MotB much faster. I tend to refrain myself from rest-spamming and the system allowed me to rest much more often than my usual pace. The good content also kept me playing with fewer resting, too, which is not about the party but my own, though. Considering the genuine word count, I was quite surprised how quickly I ended up finishing the game. It was like reading a well-written long novel.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2014 15:07
|
|
|
Basic Chunnel posted:There are a couple of ways around this. One is to make resting difficult or expensive, and not just in the sense of making players roll for random encounters, or making certain areas rest-banned zones (that never stopped anyone in BG2 after all, you just reloaded or backtracked). Another is to go the Dragon Age route and incorporate combat failure penalties that can't be slept off and that players have to literally pay a cost to remove. It sounds like PoE is doing the former, in a sense. Really it's like a softer version of Hitman's save scarcity. You make the players consider when they want to give themselves a buffer, because once they do they lose something. The other way of balancing it, incidentally, is just to set everyone back to full health/mana/ability uses after every encounter. That way every fight is at 100% health without making anyone backtrack or rest for anything. The problem with doing things that way is that you're removing one of the elements that make it a game instead of a movie. It can be done, but you need to make sure you have some other compelling things in your gameplay so that the player has things to do and choices to make.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2014 16:24
|
|
|
And some elements of that are already being done. Some abilities come back after every encounter, and I suspect Stamina also gets topped off after every encounter.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2014 18:47
|
|
|
So how do the spells look visually? Do any of them go over-the-top like the Motherfucking Mechanus Cannon, or are they fairly low-key?
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2014 19:05
|
|
|
4th edition at will / encounter / daily splits (as I believe we are getting) with dailies being regained after x encounters rather than at rest could also work well. Limiting rest and punishing in dungeon rest (well, technically rewarding Inn/Stronghold resting) works well too though. I'm guessing there's no limiting factors / cost to resting in your stronghold and just a gold cost to inns?
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2014 19:42
|
|
|
There are opportunity costs, you lock yourself in to only certain stronghold bonuses and at inns you choose from a list. So inns are useful again!* * My BG2 play style changed a lot when I realized that rest interruptions on the street were wiped on a successful 8 hour rest. Pause, build up an army of annoyed city guards, succeed in resting and wipe them from existence.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2014 19:55
|
|
|
SunAndSpring posted:So how do the spells look visually? Do any of them go over-the-top like the Motherfucking Mechanus Cannon, or are they fairly low-key? Remember the Guardian Force summons in Final Fantasy 8? Just like that.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2014 19:56
|
|
|
I can see myself playing already: WIZARD- casts GRAVE OF THE FIREFLIES on TARGET. TARGET- cries and vomits uncontrollably for ninety minutes. In regards to spell animations I hope there's little in the way of spells that pause the action for ten seconds or more.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2014 20:04
|
|
|
Masonity posted:I'm guessing there's no limiting factors / cost to resting in your stronghold and just a gold cost to inns? Masonity posted:4th edition at will / encounter / daily splits (as I believe we are getting) with dailies being regained after x encounters rather than at rest could also work well. Limiting rest and punishing in dungeon rest (well, technically rewarding Inn/Stronghold resting) works well too though. Maybe, except Trial of Iron, how about allowing the players to adjust difficulty setting even in the middle of the game but, without relying on dirty tricks like save file editing, it will be permanently recorded to the play-through stats (a warning window would be nice). SunAndSpring posted:So how do the spells look visually?
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2014 00:51
|
|
|
 drat. e: Rope kid, can you guys show this in motion at all? Goddamn.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2014 01:26
|
|
|
Darkhold posted:Just to address the limited resources part (not touching savescumming/editing argument) but many people like to view dungeons as a careful balance of resource management and attrition instead of a string of standalone fights. Basic Chunnel posted:irritating with buffs  Jokes aside, I think that immunities and reductions got out of hand and make the tactical play tedious rock-paper-scissors rather than on-the-fly engagement.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2014 01:27
|
|
|
Pretty much all casting buffs are combat-only spells, so there's always an opportunity cost to using them.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2014 01:31
|
|
|
Whole update: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66146-update-77-art-in-alpha/#entry1444666quote:Update by Rose Gomez, Associate Producer
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2014 01:35
|
|
|
It'll be interesting to see how dank (not in the nug sense) they'll make dungeons now that we have an IE-style game with real-time lighting. On the one hand it'll be cool, on the other hand it might add an unnecessary wrinkle to navigation.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2014 01:46
|
|
|
Random question about Unity, I know it supports C♯, JavaScript and Boo natively. Which do you guys use or is it a mix or something else that gets translated/compiled to work with Mono?
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2014 02:03
|
|
|
Basic Chunnel posted:It'll be interesting to see how dank (not in the nug sense) they'll make dungeons now that we have an IE-style game with real-time lighting. On the one hand it'll be cool, on the other hand it might add an unnecessary wrinkle to navigation. (Its not unnecessary! Part of the mega-dungeon was supposed to be underwater. No idea how they will do that but I am looking forward to some U-series nostalgia  )
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2014 02:05
|
|
|
rope kid posted:Pretty much all casting buffs are combat-only spells, so there's always an opportunity cost to using them. I've been replaying Dragon Age Origins, and I don't remember what you've said about how something like "sustained" abilities work. In DA:O, most buffs are combat only too, but it also has abilities you toggle on and leave on, so characters are covered in shiny pixie dust during conversations, for example. Turning these on for each fight, depending on the ability, can actually cost you time in a fight that you need as the character goes through all his or her animations for activating the abilities, so you leave them on as much as possible to save time. (Also, they all impose a penalty of some sort, usually making activated abilities cost more by some percentage as well as reserving some stamina.) It can have a lot of little annoyances, too: Champions, for example, have an aura that applies to anyone with a range of the character, which is usually just a little shorter than the follow distance while running, so if you leave it on all the time you get the "bwoomf!" noise of the aura being applied to the people running behind/ahead of the champion over and over as they catch up and lag behind, catch up and lag behind. So Paladins have "modal" buffs with their auras, right? Are those things you toggle on at the start of a fight and they drop when combat is off, or do you leave them on and they only apply their buffs when combat is on, or do they leave them on and they have their effects on all the time, but they are not the norm?
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2014 02:35
|
|
|
Gyshall posted:drat. Sweet. I've always wanted an RPG that simulates living in a shack on the beach getting drunk. Thanks ropekid!
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2014 02:45
|
|
|
Basic Chunnel posted:It'll be interesting to see how dank (not in the nug sense) they'll make dungeons now that we have an IE-style game with real-time lighting. On the one hand it'll be cool, on the other hand it might add an unnecessary wrinkle to navigation. But now I'm interested in the obverse... just how dank is project eternity, on a scale of 1 to chronic?
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2014 04:24
|
|
|
SurrealityCheck posted:But now I'm interested in the obverse... just how dank is project eternity, on a scale of 1 to chronic? The stickiest of the icky
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2014 04:36
|
|
|
SurrealityCheck posted:EDIT: THIS ONE IS PERFECT That's my favorite White Wolf RPG right there.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2014 04:45
|
|
|
Basic Chunnel posted:It'll be interesting to see how dank (not in the nug sense) they'll make dungeons now that we have an IE-style game with real-time lighting. On the one hand it'll be cool, on the other hand it might add an unnecessary wrinkle to navigation.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2014 05:57
|
|
|
State of game development:Brandon Adler posted:We are in our Alpha phase right now.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2014 08:53
|
|
|
Not quite feature complete probably means the fog of war revision (last I remember it wasn't quite right yet) and a few other tidbits. I wonder if dynamic cloth and hair ended up making it in. edit: could also be Linux build. Sensuki fucked around with this message at 09:27 on Apr 30, 2014 |
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2014 08:57
|
|
|
Sensuki posted:Not quite feature complete probably means the fog of war revision (last I remember it wasn't quite right yet) and a few other tidbits. I wonder if dynamic cloth and hair ended up making it in. I'd love it even if it was simple as the dynamics in Temple of elemental evil.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2014 08:59
|
|
|
xthetenth posted:Random question about Unity, I know it supports C♯, JavaScript and Boo natively. Which do you guys use or is it a mix or something else that gets translated/compiled to work with Mono? They use C#, like any sane person should do.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2014 09:26
|
|
|
Lotish posted:So Paladins have "modal" buffs with their auras, right? Are those things you toggle on at the start of a fight and they drop when combat is off, or do you leave them on and they only apply their buffs when combat is on, or do they leave them on and they have their effects on all the time, but they are not the norm?
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2014 13:03
|
|
|
Furism posted:They use C#, like any sane person should do. Nah man, you gotta rep the boo. ... I have no idea what boo is  On the dynamic lighting front I think that, to be honest, relying on it is kind of what you need to do to make the backgrounds seem more alive. For all their beauty, there was a very static quality to those old ie games - and you chaps have enough technological sleight of hand to make 90% of that impression vanish behind a curtain made of dynamic lighting and cheeky integrated animations. Of course, I haven't seen it in action - so pinch of salt and all that.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2014 13:21
|
|
|
SurrealityCheck posted:... I have no idea what boo is You should be proud.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2014 13:41
|
|
|
I wasn't following the conversation and thought you guys were talking about the hamster for a second.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2014 13:49
|
|
|
Phlegmish posted:I wasn't following the conversation and thought you guys were talking about the hamster for a second. They were. It stands to reason a space hamster would be able to program.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2014 13:53
|
|
|
FutonForensic posted:You should be proud. Looked it up on wikipedia and I still wonder why Python gets so many copycats. Do they all serve some purpose or could we really get on fine with just one or two?
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2014 14:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 19, 2024 14:29 |
|
|
Gyshall posted:
Somebody explain why the industry (besides the guy at spiderweb) stopped making these types of games again? Don't say button or awesome or lack thereof.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2014 14:17
|
|