|
Hobgoblin2099 posted:The worst thing about dialogue towards Catwoman is not just the fact that everyone calls her a bitch. To be fair, the only people who threaten her and call her a bitch are the hosed up cartoonish henchmen and the villains. i am not saying its right,its tacky as hell and is hosed up, but to me it kinda fits with the psudo-grimdark city prison setting. Also, i am pretty sure alot of those henchmen insults got cut out in a recent patch.
|
# ? May 3, 2014 02:43 |
|
|
# ? Mar 28, 2024 21:36 |
|
I think that's one area where Origins is refreshingly better: no sexual threats, Barbra Gordon looks like an actual teen nerd. And I don't recall Shiva looking too bad. There's the poison assassin woman, but she's clearly meant to be primal/feral sexual and it's better since there's actual non-sexualized female characters.
|
# ? May 3, 2014 02:47 |
|
pengun101 posted:Also, i am pretty sure alot of those henchmen insults got cut out in a recent patch. Bender the Henchman posted:Hey, Catwoman! I respect you as a person! Let's get some gelato sometime! This game sucks now.
|
# ? May 3, 2014 02:48 |
|
Blade_of_tyshalle posted:This game sucks now. I would unironically love it if John DiMaggio recorded lines like this completely seriously and threateningly. But seriously, I'm not saying they have to respect Catwoman. Just cut down on the swearing so it's not every line. I only recall them saying bitch about three times over the course of Asylum whereas here it's every other line. Jack Ryder even calls Vicki Vale a bitch for reporting on Arkham City, since he wanted to do the story himself.
|
# ? May 3, 2014 02:55 |
|
I mean, even without getting into gendered insults, it's the threats of sexual violence that make things so skeevy. I'm fine with convicts calling Catwoman a bitch, but having them threaten to rape her, implicitly or otherwise, just takes everything to a really creepy, uncomfortable, unnecessary place.
|
# ? May 3, 2014 03:14 |
|
Phylodox posted:I mean, even without getting into gendered insults, it's the threats of sexual violence that make things so skeevy. I'm fine with convicts calling Catwoman a bitch, but having them threaten to rape her, implicitly or otherwise, just takes everything to a really creepy, uncomfortable, unnecessary place. I fully agree. The treatment of gender is the one really indefensible thing in AC.
|
# ? May 3, 2014 04:23 |
|
I personally thought floaty ghost Ras Al-Ghul giving you a gliding tutorial was pretty much a tragedy.
|
# ? May 3, 2014 04:32 |
|
SolidSnakesBandana posted:I personally thought floaty ghost Ras Al-Ghul giving you a gliding tutorial was pretty much a tragedy. That actually was a pretty out of place part. However, it completely left my mind once I started fighting sand demon Ra's.
|
# ? May 3, 2014 04:52 |
|
How are all these super thuggish escaped convicts and gang members supposed to act? I thought Catwoman's characterisation was pretty cheesy and lame, but the constant "bitch bitch bitch" stuff from the goons is pretty much poo poo you'd expect people like that to be saying.
|
# ? May 3, 2014 04:57 |
|
Radical 90s Wizard posted:How are all these super thuggish escaped convicts and gang members supposed to act? I thought Catwoman's characterisation was pretty cheesy and lame, but the constant "bitch bitch bitch" stuff from the goons is pretty much poo poo you'd expect people like that to be saying. Because the game as a teen rating?
|
# ? May 3, 2014 05:02 |
|
This conversation has been had and re-had ad nauseum in all kinds of forums and media venues. The long and short of it is that gendered insults and threats of sexual violence against women suck. You can use "realism" or whatever convoluted logic you want to justify them, but their prevalence is still dumb and horrible.
|
# ? May 3, 2014 05:03 |
|
Yea you're right, and I don't mean to sound like I'm really defending it. I just never found it that weird that Two-Face or whoever would call Catwoman a bitch I guess.
|
# ? May 3, 2014 05:11 |
|
I'm pretty sick of the "Well, convicts would be saying that stuff!" excuse for the thug dialogue. This is a comic book game, not a linguistic survey of the incarcerated. There is no loving authenticity to cling to. There is a difference between sexy and exploitative. Although the comics themselves have a very mixed track record with it, most adaptions of Catwoman in other media get that. I mean, poo poo, Batman Returns has Michelle Pfeiffer strutting around in an outfit that launched a thousand fetishes but she doesn't go through the movie with other male characters constantly and casually threatening to sexually assault her. This is not a matter of realism. "Realism" is the loving Godwin of video game arguments. There is all kinds of bullshit in games where the only justification people can seem to come up with is that it's "realistic". gently caress that. One, it almost never is, it's just what people imagine real life to be based on their own preconceptions. Two, even it is, I'm not playing a game where random poo poo from real life is thrown in. What you need instead is verisimilitude, that is, something that feels real for the world you're portraying. You want Catwoman to be sexy, fine, go nuts. You want her to be a tease, hot drat, look at who she actually has feelings for and who's so stodgy that it'll actually be funny to tease him a little. You want Arkham City to be a horrible shithole, yeah, we got that part. But you don't need a whole prison of misogynist would-be rapists to sell any of that. So, this is a matter of treating your characters - all your characters - with some basic respect instead of going "she's so fine everybody wants to rape her and rawr she's such a tease too SO HAWT". The portrayal of Catwoman in Arkham City is sexist as hell. There's no excuse for it. Full stop. fake edit: f,b. Basically what Phylodox said. I'm not even arguing against Two-Face calling her a bitch - I could do without it, but sprinkle a few of those in and I'll go with it. It's the actual threats of sexual assault from the thugs that's very much not cool.
|
# ? May 3, 2014 05:30 |
|
pengun101 posted:To be fair, the only people who threaten her and call her a bitch are the hosed up cartoonish henchmen and the villains. i am not saying its right,its tacky as hell and is hosed up, but to me it kinda fits with the psudo-grimdark city prison setting. Also, i am pretty sure alot of those henchmen insults got cut out in a recent patch. The issue most people have isn't that some of the thug commentary involves calling her a bitch and such, it's that it's 99.999999% of the dialogue in the game when referring to any of the female characters is like this. Like no one cares that Two Face shouts "TWO GUNS! Bitch!" or that one thug conversation exists about that guy wanting to have sex with Harley Quinn, it's that it's all there is in the game.
|
# ? May 3, 2014 05:47 |
|
Radical 90s Wizard posted:How are all these super thuggish escaped convicts and gang members supposed to act? I thought Catwoman's characterisation was pretty cheesy and lame, but the constant "bitch bitch bitch" stuff from the goons is pretty much poo poo you'd expect people like that to be saying. The argument of "this is realistic" would work better if they were fully realized and well-rounded characters but they're not. They make goofy-rear end puns, have arguments over the name of the video game and in general are T-rated goofy generic goons. They can't even use foul language because of the game's rating. Nobody would notice it if they just went "We're gonna get you, Catwoman!" like they do to Batman. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 05:53 on May 3, 2014 |
# ? May 3, 2014 05:51 |
|
Having just beaten City again today, I can say with full confidence that these credits are just way too god drat long.
|
# ? May 3, 2014 05:53 |
|
Neo Rasa posted:Having just beaten City again today, I can say with full confidence that these credits are just way too god drat long. You can skip them, you know. Origins', too.
|
# ? May 3, 2014 05:55 |
|
Hobgoblin2099 posted:You can skip them, you know. I know this, but holy crap. I mean there's gameplay after and stuff. I can't believe I sat through them the first time it's worse than an MGS4 cutscene when there's an entire extra mission after it.
|
# ? May 3, 2014 05:57 |
|
Neo Rasa posted:The issue most people have isn't that some of the thug commentary involves calling her a bitch and such, it's that it's 99.999999% of the dialogue in the game when referring to any of the female characters is like this. Like no one cares that Two Face shouts "TWO GUNS! Bitch!" or that one thug conversation exists about that guy wanting to have sex with Harley Quinn, it's that it's all there is in the game. TWO GUNS, BITCH. Is probably my favorite line in the whole game. It's just so perfect, it's dumb and corny as hell.
|
# ? May 3, 2014 06:20 |
|
"Two guns, bitch" is admittedly pretty great, but I always found it funny how Catwoman was surprised that Two-Face had a second gun. That's kind of his whole thing, after all.
|
# ? May 3, 2014 06:24 |
|
Don't forget "Objection!-loading cutscene-Overruled!"
|
# ? May 3, 2014 06:49 |
|
Hobgoblin2099 posted:You can skip them, you know. I always get so paranoid I'm gonna miss something, like a mid-credits cutscene or a radio broadcast. Seriously, there's like, half an hour of credits after games, nowadays, and they do love sticking little Easter eggs into them.
|
# ? May 3, 2014 14:20 |
|
ImpAtom posted:The argument of "this is realistic" would work better if they were fully realized and well-rounded characters but they're not. They make goofy-rear end puns, have arguments over the name of the video game and in general are T-rated goofy generic goons. They can't even use foul language because of the game's rating. Nobody would notice it if they just went "We're gonna get you, Catwoman!" like they do to Batman. I think some people seem to have a hard time both enjoying video games and also looking at them critically at the same time. The Catwoman stuff is straight-up uncomfortable to be playing around other people.
|
# ? May 3, 2014 14:57 |
Hobgoblin2099 posted:I recall precisely one guy saying "You're going to be my bitch, Wayne" and everything else was pretty much generic death threats. Even that example was because of (presumably) the criminals' impression of Wayne as a prissy, weak-willed billionaire who's never been in a fight in his lifetime. The threats still come from the presumption that he is weak, therefore "feminine" according to old-fashioned tenets of manliness. This is sort of a stretch, but when a dude threatens to make another guy his bitch, it's "making a woman" (i.e. submissive) out of them. You don't see a grunt in Arkham threatening Bruce to make him ride him like a stallion. (In the interests of not getting even more bizarre in this post than I already am, it's worth mentioning that this is rendered moot by the fact that Bruce's in-game model is just as broad-shouldered and tall as Batman should be, making these criminals' threats at the beginning of the game even more short-sighted.) Jetfire fucked around with this message at 15:05 on May 3, 2014 |
|
# ? May 3, 2014 15:02 |
|
I felt the same way about Gordon model in Arkham Asylum. Dude looked like he could kick Batman's rear end but he still gets kidnapped.Phylodox posted:I always get so paranoid I'm gonna miss something, like a mid-credits cutscene or a radio broadcast. Seriously, there's like, half an hour of credits after games, nowadays, and they do love sticking little Easter eggs into them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JP9u3MgEQKc&t=531s
|
# ? May 3, 2014 15:31 |
|
Neo Rasa posted:I felt the same way about Gordon model in Arkham Asylum. Dude looked like he could kick Batman's rear end but he still gets kidnapped. Just cause you happen to be a big guy doesn't mean you are a super-badass? Do all people in shape have the skills of a spec ops soldier?
|
# ? May 3, 2014 15:40 |
|
Jetfire posted:Bruce's in-game model is just as broad-shouldered and tall as Batman should be, making these criminals' threats at the beginning of the game even more short-sighted. Eh, Bruce Wayne is just some prissy rich boy. I read the papers, he plays squash and polo and races his little Ducati bikes for charity. Whatever. He's got a beach body at best, and I bet that guy has a personal trainer to kick his rear end for him. Wouldn't be surprised if he has ab implants, either, you know? drat spoiled rich bitch. Not like me, though. I've been lifting weights in the rec yard at Blackgate my entire stint, and check out my delts. They're bigger than my head. I could kick Wayne's rear end no problem. I bet he can't even throw a punch, heh.
|
# ? May 3, 2014 15:42 |
|
MrJacobs posted:Just cause you happen to be a big guy doesn't mean you are a super-badass? Do all people in shape have the skills of a spec ops soldier? No they do not, but in comics books and video games? In the grim dark future of Unreal 3.0 Engine character models there is only war.* I mean they even changed his model drastically in the later games because of how ridiculous it was in comparison. quote:Eh, Bruce Wayne is just some prissy rich boy. I read the papers, he plays squash and polo and races his little Ducati bikes for charity. Whatever. He's got a beach body at best, and I bet that guy has a personal trainer to kick his rear end for him. Wouldn't be surprised if he has ab implants, either, you know? drat spoiled rich bitch. I loved the amount of dialogue in the beginning of Arkham City along these lines to help you feel ultra smug as you break Penguin's hand and own a bunch of guys with both hands tied behind your back, etc. Though it was weird how the entire intro/opening areas of the game was you getting knocked out and foggily waking up over and over again. *Though I'd hesitate to call any opponent as presented in Arkham Asylum a "spec ops soldier."
|
# ? May 3, 2014 15:48 |
|
Hobgoblin2099 posted:I recall precisely one guy saying "You're going to be my bitch, Wayne" and everything else was pretty much generic death threats. Don't forget Deadshot also points a finger at him and goes "bang!". He wasn't talking about shooting him in the face.
|
# ? May 3, 2014 16:03 |
|
Neo Rasa posted:No they do not, but in comics books and video games? In the grim dark future of Unreal 3.0 Engine character models there is only war.* I mean they even changed his model drastically in the later games because of how ridiculous it was in comparison. Deadshot, & Tyger guards. Neo Rasa posted:I loved the amount of dialogue in the beginning of Arkham City along these lines to help you feel ultra smug as you break Penguin's hand and own a bunch of guys with both hands tied behind your back, etc. Though it was weird how the entire intro/opening areas of the game was you getting knocked out and foggily waking up over and over again. Wayne will take a beating in public to conceal his identity. In AC, he needed to protect Ryder, and then not get straight up murdered. He even took a gun butt to the face in the new DLC until he saw Alfred was in danger.
|
# ? May 3, 2014 16:06 |
|
All this talk about convicts who have murdered plenty of times using foul mouthed language make me sick to my stomach. How can I be batman or catwoman, who is a woman by the way, with this knowledge? How am I supposed to break their loving bones and put them in a hospital so they can recover for months in misery and some attempt to think about what they've done, or possibly get murdered while in the hospital and defenseless by some newblood for failing the task his supervillain gave him. It's just obscene.
|
# ? May 3, 2014 16:11 |
|
MrJacobs posted:Deadshot, & Tyger guards. Yeah I remember how professional they came off as and how accurate Deadshot's aim is in Arkham Asylum, the game I was talking about in that sentence. MrJacobs posted:Wayne will take a beating in public to conceal his identity. In AC, he needed to protect Ryder, and then not get straight up murdered. He even took a gun butt to the face in the new DLC until he saw Alfred was in danger. Obviously, it's just disjoined that that he gets cold knocked out and foggily wakes up so many times in the early game from Harley/Joker, Strange, the sickness, it's like they came up with a bunch of plot twists first and then wrote the story around them, which made the opening feel really disjointed. Though Strange has already known is identity for years and Wayne completely bludgeons out anyone he can the minute there aren't guns pointed at him. It's especially odd because of how smoothly the game flows from the final battle to the ending to the post-game Catwoman mission to new game plus (minus the slow scrolling twenty-eight hour long credits that you NEED to watch all the way through the first time because they actually do play that voice mail from the Joker you get a few hours before the game ends but can't answer in-game, you're ready for more). Asylum and City are two of the best games of this generation easily, I love them, but I don't see what the problem is with pointing out how some aspects of the character designs/story in each were a bit off, rushed, whatever. Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 16:19 on May 3, 2014 |
# ? May 3, 2014 16:12 |
|
Fargin Icehole posted:All this talk about convicts who have murdered plenty of times using foul mouthed language make me sick to my stomach. How can I be batman or catwoman, who is a woman by the way, with this knowledge? The point is that overusing curses doesn't make good or comfortable dialogue. It really comes across as a sorry attempt at being edgy. QED: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKUSSFzRZGY Blueberry Pancakes fucked around with this message at 16:30 on May 3, 2014 |
# ? May 3, 2014 16:24 |
|
Hobgoblin2099 posted:The point is that overusing curses doesn't make good or comfortable dialogue. That'd be a pretty good example for maybe Yaiba or Bulletstorm, who rely on foul language for humor, and also M rated games, but Arkham? I can count the times I heard bitch in the arkham games with one hand and the catcalls directed at catwoman are understandable considering you are in a desolate hellhole full of murderous convicts who haven't seen the sight of an actual woman in years to decades. I just don't see the big deal here.
|
# ? May 3, 2014 16:29 |
|
There's just always someone who pops up with "But they're badguys!" and "But it doesn't bother me!" isn't there? If you're not part of a demographic that has to regularly deal with gendered insults or the very real threat of sexual violence then that's great for you, but that doesn't make the perpetuation of that kind of culture okay. And before anyone says anything, yes, murder and assault are terrible things that happen to people in real life, but there isn't an entire culture dedicated to delegitimizing those crimes and shaming the victims.
|
# ? May 3, 2014 16:55 |
|
The big deal is that it's a) lazy writing, b) a disservice to the character and c) sadly just another example of how female characters are portrayed negatively in video games. Compare and contrast the bad guys in the Tomb Raider reboot, who are on paper the same deal: murderous psychos stranded in a hellhole of a place for years who want to do very bad things to Lara Croft. Except it's not played for a "haha stripper pole fighting moves" joke and the game takes the time to get you into Lara's headspace and make you empathize with her. For all the good parts of Arkham City (and I've 100% this poo poo, so it's not like there's not plenty of good stuff that kept me coming back), it has deep, deep problems in how it treats its characters. The sexism against Catwoman serves no narrative purpose, it's just bad writing. Regardless of whether you think that's actively a strike against the game worth discussing, can we at least agree that it could have been handled much better?
|
# ? May 3, 2014 16:56 |
|
Phylodox posted:There's just always someone who pops up with "But they're badguys!" and "But it doesn't bother me!" isn't there? If you're not part of a demographic that has to regularly deal with gendered insults or the very real threat of sexual violence then that's great for you, but that doesn't make the perpetuation of that kind of culture okay. Its preferable to Fire-fly's puns. 'You say lip balm..' I never once heard Batman mention lip balm.
|
# ? May 3, 2014 17:03 |
|
I don't even remember a time in Tomb Raider where Lara is threatened with sexual violence. She's sure threatened with absolutely every other kind of violence, but I do not recall an instance of "gonna rape you to death, you loving bitch" type of things. Hell, by halfway through the game she's hit this mythical-terror level of significance for the cultists who kind of stop saying "she's over here!" and devolve into "the Outsider's here!" Lara Croft: Batman.
|
# ? May 3, 2014 17:08 |
|
Blade_of_tyshalle posted:I don't even remember a time in Tomb Raider where Lara is threatened with sexual violence. She's sure threatened with absolutely every other kind of violence, but I do not recall an instance of "gonna rape you to death, you loving bitch" type of things. Hell, by halfway through the game she's hit this mythical-terror level of significance for the cultists who kind of stop saying "she's over here!" and devolve into "the Outsider's here!" The very first person she kills was sort of almost going to attempt to feel her up but it quickly becomes a purely lethal violence as she completely destroys him. A brief part of this being in a lot of the earlier trailers is what raised the ire of many in the first place regarding how her character would be treated, but I feel like they found a good middle ground and I ended up loving the game.
|
# ? May 3, 2014 17:10 |
|
|
# ? Mar 28, 2024 21:36 |
|
Neo Rasa posted:The very first person she kills was sort of almost going to attempt to feel her up but it quickly becomes a purely lethal violence as she completely destroys him. A brief part of this being in a lot of the earlier trailers is what raised the ire of many in the first place regarding how her character would be treated, but I feel like they found a good middle ground and I ended up loving the game. I remember that scene and I think even the author was like there is more to this game. I almost wrote it off because of that but it ends up being a good game, almost better than the Uncharted series. Hopefully it will get a sequel. I would agree that hopefully the third Batman game gets less bitch/rapey comments. That wasn't really needed in the game at all.
|
# ? May 3, 2014 17:20 |