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Kopijeger posted:Trivia: names ending with -leif are exclusively masculine, at least in the real world. A female character could be called Oddlaug, Oddbjórg or Oddfrid. I was about to mention that it was a weird name for a female. Maybe Chewbot can tell us why?
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May 2, 2014 16:45
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Thesaya posted:I was about to mention that it was a weird name for a female. Maybe Chewbot can tell us why? All will be revealed in due time. Echoing the love for Oddleif and the archer girls. Their only weakness is that they tend to be a bit squishy and consequently can't deal as much strength damage once their will runs out. They are armour breakers beyond compare though. I personally found Egil difficult to use effectively, mainly due to the lack of threat management/taunting in the game. I stuck by him as he was a sacrificial wall for my archers, and cried when i lost him and all the renown i invested.
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May 2, 2014 22:55
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There ARE items that you can equip to help people draw aggro, but the reality of the situation is that if you're relying on items for your basic dynamics you're already fighting a losing game.
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May 3, 2014 00:03
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Voting closed, Steady Pace wins. There may be a bonus update this weekend.
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May 3, 2014 00:15
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Does the horn carry over between battles? If not, why bother leaving Will in it?
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May 3, 2014 01:43
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It doesn't - if I leave any will in it, it's because I forgot or it wouldn't have helped me win the battle.
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May 3, 2014 02:04
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 We depart for Frostvellr at a steady pace. We'll rest if things get too dire, but won't be taking things too easy, either.   You make your way to the rear and hoist a small child onto your shoulders. "Fight for every step! Remember those who didn't make it and push onwards!" The clansmen see your effort and follow suit, pushing themselves harder. +5 Renown  Stopping early would have made it take longer to reach Frostvellr. Slowing would have done less so, but also would have reduced morale. Keeping a steady pace without a speech would have resulted in some stragglers getting lost.  On day 6, we come across something interesting.  After a day of misery, men and women drop their meager possessions beneath the godstone of Hridvaldyr.  What are we doing? We just left our homes because suddenly there were dredge. Chieftain did what I suggested and look what he got for it. Look at these people. Somebody has to hold them together. Lie? Tell them everything's going to be all right? Gods, Rook, I don't know. Pretend you know what you're doing. That's what the rest of us do. Thanks for the advice. Then do whatever you want. Let them fend for themselves if you can live with it. You humans are absurd, Rook. Furious when you're not in control, terrified when you are. Think of how I feel. I'm stuck nursing a bunch of weaklings. You do care, I can tell. Feh, men are a plague on the world worse than any dredge, as far as I can tell. Chats like this are why we get along so well, Iver.You sleep poorly, the sun forever stuck to an eternally bright sky. Before the others rise, you find yourself staring over long, low hills covered in pine.  The weathered stone doesn't see many visitors. Not much reason to travel so far east. When hunters come through, they sometimes stop to give offerings, out of habit more than anything else now that the gods are dead. Hridvaldyr was the god of hunters and of wild beasts, occasionally seen roaming the land as both a man and a wolf. He was always depicted in effigy with his terrible spear. You wonder what he'd think about his woods being full of dredge now. A young girl from the caravan approaches you. "I made this for you," she says, handing you a crude necklace carved from a branch she must have found nearby. "Thank you for saving my mama," she says, before running back to her tent. Back at your tent you rouse Alette, who clings to your arm until she's completely awake. Bad dreams. Eventually the camp is broken down and it's time to move on to Frostvellr. It feels like an end more than a start.  Day 7 begins with a new piece of equipment, as we pass the godstone.  Still no sign of Frostvellr, as we return to the main road.   On one hand, more mouths to feed. On the other hand, people who now how to hold a spear might be useful soon, and so will that watering hole, if it's real. "If you'll be no trouble, come along," you say. The me cautiously join your ranks and prove trustworthy. The hidden watering hole nearby is teeming with animals and soon your supplies are nicely restocked. +12 Fighters +5 Renown +18 Supplies That stretches our supplies for another four days! Day 8, however, starts with some trouble.  Oh, please, we're vikings. You look around at all the bruised and bloodied faces, then lift your own horn of mead. "Skal!" you shout with a smile. "Skal!" the younger warriors shout back. The merriment spreads and soon everyone is laughing and drinking again. +5 Renown  The caravan is visibly relieved to find a small village on the way to Frostvellr, with beds and fresh supplies. The local here are shocked by the news you bring and discus it amongst themselves while you set up nearby.  Welcome to the middle of nowhere! First of all, let's check on our progress.  Looks like a little under halfway to Frostvellr, 3 days after our departure. We're making decent progress.  I made some good Renown during the evacuation and on the road, so I'll buy out their supplies. Equipment: Singing Stone: A rare crystal that, when struck, creates a pleasing sound, often strung on weapons with melodic effect. +2 Will per kill. Horseskor: Shoes made from the hooves of horseborn have long been rumored to make one fsater, if not cold-hearted. +1 Movement, 10% chance to dodge Strength attacks. I'm skipping both.  The rune I got back at the godstone is a fine item. I'll give it to Rook for now.  For 5 Renown, I promote Iver, adding a point of Exertion and a point of Strength.  Next, checking up on the local youngster.  You find Egil just outside the camp, practicing his sword swings. I saw you taking some hard hits out there. Oh. Yeah, I'm great. Er, not great, considering everything that's... I'm fine. My arm's fine. It's a strong shield. It's Rook, right? I know we haven't... talked much. Before now. But if you want, just call me Gil. Okay, Gil. I wanted to let you know that I meant what I said before. About making sure nothing happens to Alette. Well, she's... I don't want her to get hurt.You can see his cheeks turn bright red. Don't worry, she can take care of herself, too. I know, I didn't mean... Easy, Gil. I know what you meant. Yeah, I doubt there's many. My father made this. It's solid metal, really heavy. But I've been practicing with it since I was a kid. I used to spend a lot of time just getting used to lifting it.He raises it up to show you. I'm pretty good with it now. It's the only thing of my father's I have left. Then, when my mother died... she gave it to me, before she died. Did he say that? That's good. Never had to fight anything like dredge before, but... I don't have much else to do, and how many people get to train with a varl? Just seems like... I could be a help to someone. That's what I want to be. I will. Oh, and if you need something, let me know. I can do anything you need. Between you and Iver, we're going to be okay, I can tell. Tryg just can't hold still, can he?  Triggvi turns his head, eyes wide as though something was stalking him.  Oh, okay. Why are you here? Fat clansmen. What? They eat, eat, eat, don't know how to kill a thing, Rook.He rolls the "R" in "Rook" gratuitously while holding out his spear for you to inspect. Look at this thing. They grow on trees. You can make this from a tree. My advice? Show them how to stick some pigs, or... stick a rabbit. A bird. You can stick almost anything, Rook. Have I always been Tryggvi? Dumb question, Rook. Look, I hear what they say behind my back. "Tryggvi's handsome, Tryggvi's brave." But you're the right man for this job. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Glad you finally asked. Don't trust a man, just because they have faces and use their mouths. A man will look at you right through his helmet and lie. Should I trust you, Tryggvi? Come on, Rook. Am I wearing a helmet? I get it. We all got things to do. Me, I was about to go swimming. At least you're keeping clean. Nobody comes looking for you in a pool of water, you know. Don't let me waste too much time there, okay? We'll come get you before we leave. I'll see you around. Only if you keep your eyes open, Rook.You can't help but hope there was nothing sinister about that last comment.  And with that, we hit the road once more. As soon as we do, though, we run into more trouble.  What's going on?    I'll have you both gutted before I let half the village desert!Behind the angry villager, a mob of armed thugs have appeared, all furrowed brows and nervous stares. You both know what will happen to the rest of us if the fields are abandoned! Nobody leaves!  We thought that's how it went, ourselves. A good number told me to my face they didn't want to be beaten to death by dredge. Dredge, my rear end! I don't know what the scam is this time, Hogun, but you've got two choices. Get back to work, or I'm finally putting you in the ground. Mogun, what do you say? Thought it was unfair that he only asked me.Mogun draws his axe slowly, followed by Hogun. Despite their confidence, the brothers are significantly outnumbered.  Decision time! Do we side with the village, side with the brothers, or not get involved? This has the potential to get ugly. Voting will be open for 24 hours. Quinn2win fucked around with this message at 23:47 on May 4, 2014 |
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May 4, 2014 20:07
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Side with the brothers. From what we've seen everyone in this village will be dead if they just sit around and wait for proof, might as well try and save those few who actually have the sense to leave.
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May 4, 2014 20:27
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Don't get involved The Brothers have trouble written all over them. If you can't trust a man to fight at your side, you shouldn't fight beside him at all.
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May 4, 2014 20:28
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Pretend I put in a gif of the Hound going "this men will be dead come winter" or whatever here. Side with the brothers
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May 4, 2014 20:56
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Sometimes you have to make hard choices. Side with the brothers, and save who you can.
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May 4, 2014 21:09
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A hard choice, but a choice made because the brothers are being reasonable, and the village headsman is being a fool. Side with the Siblings.
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May 4, 2014 21:47
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We need the brothers. We need everyone with an axe we can get and they seem reasonable enough.
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May 4, 2014 22:00
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Machiavelli wrote to always take sides in a conflict between nation states. Either you're on the winning side, and you get a share of the loot and the gratitude of the victors, or you lose, and you're unified with your ally in hatred of your opponent, gaining you a friend when you need one later down the line. Sitting out is off the table. That leaves us with a choice between the village leader who refuses to see the monsters at his door, or the brothers, who are being really reasonable. Side with the brothers. (Plus, if Thor has taught me anything, it's that dudes named Hogun are badasses.)
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May 4, 2014 22:11
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The brothers will probably be a problem down the road, but for now they're the voice of reason. While the village chief is perfectly right in that half the village leaving will condemn the other half to starvtion, the dredge will get here first, and if he can't understand that he's a fool. Side with the brothers. Non-intervention gets thrown out when an idiot is getting an entire village killed by direct action.
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May 4, 2014 22:12
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These guys seem to respond to decisions they don't like by picking fights with the bosses, which is gonna be us if we let them in. And they seem pretty willing to gently caress over their own dudes and let 'em die/kill 'em. I don't want any of these bozos on Team Apocalypse, so consider this a general antivote against the brothers. Can we do antivotes?
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May 4, 2014 22:28
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Easy choice to make i.e. Side with the Siblings.
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May 4, 2014 22:32
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No Anti-votes, so I'll interpret that as a vote for siding with the village chief unless otherwise clarified.
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May 4, 2014 22:45
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Sever. Everybody involved seems nutso in some way and if we get involved we'll be nutso too.
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May 4, 2014 22:49
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If the village is gonna die anyway (from the dredge), might as well kill them now and save the people willing to listen. Side with the brothers.
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May 4, 2014 22:55
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During Egil's conversation, you have a few portraits that are instead Eirik.
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May 4, 2014 23:35
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Side with the brothers, kill the townspeople, steal all their supplies for ourselves. ... What? We're FantasyVikings godsdammit, it's high time we started acting like it. 
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May 4, 2014 23:37
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Ooh. Tough choice. On the one hand, this is none of our drat business. The Brothers here seem to have been a thorn in this Chief's side for a while now, and yeah, they've got trouble written all over them. On the other hand, even if this is all just an excuse for these two to rile up the village against the Chief, it's totally our fault. We may be running from the Dredge, and we may not have had a choice, but we've brought this right to their door step. That makes dealing with this our responsibility, and I'm not just talking about the fate of the two Brothers. We've got an entire village here, in the path of danger, and the guys who are sensibly saying that it's time to get the gently caress out of Dodge are being told to sit down and shut the gently caress up, or else. The Chief is putting his ENTIRE village at risk, and it doesn't matter if he just doesn't know the real danger of what's coming or if he just doesn't like these two or if he has a good reason to dislike these two; the choice he's making is the wrong one, and it's dooming this village. Given we have no option to try and settle this peacefully, it's time to draw steel and side with the brothers.
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May 5, 2014 00:38
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...Skål! (I don't have an opinion on the vote)
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May 5, 2014 01:37
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Don't get involved. Sometimes, the best thing you can do is just walk away.
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May 5, 2014 02:52
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Side with the brothers. With the coming of the dredge, this village is doomed. Siding with the brothers will embolden the most people to leave with us, and will save the most lives.
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May 5, 2014 03:20
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Side with the villagers, kill the brothers. Who invited you losers to come along, anyway? Let's give them an object lesson into why that's a bad idea.
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May 5, 2014 04:28
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Don't get involved. Our village is our responsibility. Everyone else is not our responsibility, and if we try and fix all the woes of the world we'll just get everyone killed.
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May 5, 2014 10:34
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Side with the siblings. Sounds like a fight is going to happen. You can either get pitiful renown from jumping the brothers, or get lots of renown by killing the other half of the village before the Dredge do. Waste not want not.
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May 5, 2014 17:57
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OK, locking the vote. Hogun and Mogun are the winners.
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May 5, 2014 19:58
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 If we let the village leader have his way, everyone dies. Iver steps forward. The thugs hesitate. As you pull your axe you notice that Alette is nowhere to be seen.  It would probably be smarter to bring Tryggvi along for variety, but I want the brothers to get a proper chance to shine in their first engagement.  As cool as this opportunity looks, I don't think it would be a great idea to split up this badly. This fight is harder than it appears.  The main considerations I have for this formation: Having all of my archers protected while having both enemy archers within range of my melee fighters. Let the battle begin!  If I really wanted to, I could actually kill that archer on the first turn. Iver's just that strong. I don't fancy the idea, though - it would put the enemy units at a 3-to-2 turn advantage.  Instead, I carve a chunk out of the Thrasher, which is a new kind of enemy unit. Hogun and Mogun are both Thrashers.  Egil is going to play lure again. I could hit the archer, but: 1. Doing so would cost Egil a point of will from movement. 2. At 7 Strength, the archer isn't really much of a threat to any of us yet. 3. That would leave Egil within punishing range of four enemies. 4. Just being this close will hopefully make the archer panic and fall back again. So instead of those things, Stone Wall time.  On the other side, meanwhile, Iver is doing an admirable job at tanking. The Thrasher takes 1 point of Armor damage in retaliation.  This move probably won't be hugely useful - I mainly want to see whether or not the enemy AI is smart enough to walk around Rain marks.  The test is inconclusive - instead of advancing on Egil, he turned around to join the ranks fighting Iver.  Stats-wise, the brothers aren't great. The only difference between them is that Hogun has 2 more Armor, while Mogun has 2 more Strength.  For now, no special moves, just forming a shield wall with Iver and dropping the archer to 3 Strength.  Possibly knowing that running won't help her, she makes the best of her doomed position by harassing Rook.  Mogun forms a shield wall with Egil, otherwise not acting.  The second enemy Backbiter uses Run Through to get a decent hit off on Iver. He's starting to not look so good.  Rook isn't in position to do anything particularly cool, but now that he has 2 Exertion and 2 Break, he's shaping up to be a very nice Armor shredder.  poo poo. Important tidbit I overlooked: Enemy archers have Puncture, just like mine do. Iver has taken a lot of Armor damage this turn.  Now, let's see if this works like I think it will work.  It does! Iver uses Battering Ram to knock the Backbiter into Oddlief's trap. Cool, but admittedly only does 1 point each of Armor and Strength damage.  More importantly, it broke up all of the enemy shield walls.  This isn't that much of a hit, but it turns out it's still pretty important...  ...because the Backbiter follows it up with another Run Through on Iver. 4 Armor, 2 Strength remaining.  The other archer is up next, but Oddlief can't reach that one. I'm not sure if Iver is doomed or not, because I'm still hazy on how Puncture works, mathwise.  Well enough, it turns out. I think my mistake with Iver was on the very first turn - he moved too deep into the enemy formation, letting them surround him and form shield walls.  Okay, before this gets any more painful, let's see what these brothers are good for.  The Thrasher active ability, Bloody Flail, hits four times in a row, each hit doing either 1 point of Strength damage or one point of Armor damage at random (I think the last hit is always Strength, but I might be wrong). The fourth attack does +1 damage for each ally adjacent to the attacker, which in this case was none.  Thanks, little girl in the previous update!  Mogun could have easily killed her, but I'm not quite ready to begin the death cascade that marks endgame yet, so instead I'll leave her with 1 Strength.  The best role for any injured unit is as an Armor breaker. The computer knows this.  Dangerously low on Armor, Rook falls back to the only tile that Thrasher can't reach in one turn. This works well - instead of chasing Rook, he turns around to poke at the armor of my much sturdier northern front.  For his trouble, he is weakened to the point of uselessness.  Seriously, I should make that girl an honorary hero.  Okay, time to wrap things up. Starting with the Thrasher, because he's the furthest down the initiative order.  Careful! If I kill the northern Archer or eastern Backbiter now, then the western backbiter (7 Strength, 7 Armor) will be able to get a turn in before Rook. That could cause some serious damage.  So instead, he kills this one!  If this battle wasn't almost over, I'd be worried about that.  And with that, the enemy has nothing left to threaten me with.  Rook's active, Mark Prey, is a great choice for when he's low on Strength and you really need to kill someone.  Hogun softens the last one up, and Mogun deals the killing blow.  Egil promotes.  +165 Clansmen +22 Fighters +10 Renown +30 Supplies I feel bad for the rest of the village, but there's only so much we can do.  Day 9 begins with a much larger caravan. The new supplies and the new mouths to feed from the last couple days about balance out, leaving us with 17 days of supply.   Oddleif has gathered up the long banner from the caravan, and smiles warmly as she passes it to Alette. What's this about? I was hoping you'd sew up the banner with everything that has happened since we left Skogr. Come find me another time, Rook, and we'll talk.Before you can comment, she departs.   Oh. Then that means...You're both quiet for a moment, while Alette unfurls the banner. Oddleif has been teaching me how to sew. She speaks pretty highly of you. Can we read the part about mom?You nod. On the banner has been sewn the story of the families who have lived in Skogr throughout the years, just as is done on every banner in every town. I wish she were here. But I'm kind of glad she isn't.The section of banner about your family is short, but Alette has been sewing in colorful designs. Why do you say that? So she doesn't have to deal with... all of this. Dredge. Leaving home. And... why did you have to kill those men? In the village? Because... the dredge are terrifying. Every time we have to fight them I just want to run. But... I don't want to kill a person. Please. Alette smiles at this, then her face sinks again. I guess I would do it, if I really had to. But, do we have to? I know what you mean. Yeah, I know. Dad... I think you're doing a good job.She hugs you. ou spend the rest of your time together, sewing new verses into the banner. For better or worse, the story of Skogr is your burden now.
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May 6, 2014 01:58
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I'm very pleased to see this LP. I backed this game and played the MP thing a little bit, but bounced right off the single player game when it came out. The mechanics were too inscrutable for me at the time (I also backed mainly for an interesting Viking jaunt, not so much chess on steroids). Now that I have seen how the system is supposed to work, I'll have another go at it and hopefully be able to see the story unfold for myself. Might play on easy though. 
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May 6, 2014 04:18
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quote:I'm unclear on how Puncture works, math-wise quote:The Thrasher active ability, Bloody Flail, hits four times in a row, each hit doing either 1 point of Strength damage or one point of Armor damage at random (I think the last hit is always Strength, but I might be wrong). The fourth attack does +1 damage for each ally adjacent to the attacker, which in this case was none. Incidentally, it's not a bad idea to kill off an enemy if you can instagib them from full health like you noted you could there. You concede a bit of a turn advantage, but your alternative is leaving a perfectly functional unit on the board, which is Bad, as you found out. Archers in particular are a colossal pain in the rear end, since they synergize with pretty much any melee unit just by their nature. It can bite you in the rear end if there's a real titan of an enemy unit with like 20+ strength or something, but there isn't here (IIRC that blond Veteran Thrasher is the strongest at 11 str). Truly powerful units are pretty darned rare, at any rate. It's also worth noting that killing people off before everyone's engaged and tripping over eachother also whittles back how useful the turn advantage is, since you can see in advance how many times someone is going to move, plan for their moves accordingly, and prepare for gang-up maneuvers like you saw on Iver. This is the reason that going into battle while seriously outnumbered is generally a losing proposition - unless you can divide and conquer, you'll get too much pressure on your critical soldiers and be unable to overcome the sheer amount of armor and strength you need to get rid of before you go down. Toward that end, splitting your forces like that is rarely a good idea. Two-front battles work really awkwardly in Banner Saga due to the realities of the turn system. The biggest use it has is one powerful character getting access to squishies to force Sophie's Choices on your enemy's positioning. In this case that probably would've meant positioning Rook alone near the enemy archers and having him harass them to death. This is also the sort of role that spearmasters shine at. I am also kind of surprised that you got as few enemies as you did. I am used to there being one more of every enemy type involved here, for a total of 7-8 enemies. I'm tempted to dig up a save near there and see if your dialog choices had anything to do with that. Coolguye fucked around with this message at 07:45 on May 6, 2014 |
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May 6, 2014 07:12
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Coolguye posted:Incidentally, it's not a bad idea to kill off an enemy if you can instagib them from full health like you noted you could there. You concede a bit of a turn advantage, but your alternative is leaving a perfectly functional unit on the board, which is Bad, as you found out. Archers in particular are a colossal pain in the rear end, since they synergize with pretty much any melee unit just by their nature. It can bite you in the rear end if there's a real titan of an enemy unit with like 20+ strength or something, but there isn't here (IIRC that blond Veteran Thrasher is the strongest at 11 str). Truly powerful units are pretty darned rare, at any rate. What you see above is actually my second attempt at the fight - the first time, I killed the Archer, and things quickly went to hell. More likely, as you say, I should have kept everyone together on one side.
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May 6, 2014 13:36
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I had always assumed that Bloody Flail was kind of a useless move. Heavily RNG dependent and completely useless against shieldbangers. I wasn't aware that you got extra hits out of it for having adjacent allies, which does help a lot. Would be nice if that were included in the ability description. 
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May 6, 2014 14:02
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inthesto posted:I had always assumed that Bloody Flail was kind of a useless move. Heavily RNG dependent and completely useless against shieldbangers. I wasn't aware that you got extra hits out of it for having adjacent allies, which does help a lot. Would be nice if that were included in the ability description. I don't think it adds extra hits, it adds more damage to the last hit.
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May 6, 2014 14:34
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inthesto posted:I had always assumed that Bloody Flail was kind of a useless move. Heavily RNG dependent and completely useless against shieldbangers. I wasn't aware that you got extra hits out of it for having adjacent allies, which does help a lot. Would be nice if that were included in the ability description. It is!  That being said, I've often found the descriptions in this view to be difficult to parse.
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May 6, 2014 14:34
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Bloody Flail is incredible, because it means you never have to boost armor-bashing on your Thrashers. Just leave them at the base, and flail at the enemies whenever they've got high armor. Absolute best-case scenario, you do between 4-6 guaranteed health damage. Worst-case scenario, you do between 4-6 armor damage. Such a fantastic ability.
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May 6, 2014 18:49
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And here we have the final pair of pieces in my shieldwall strategy for this part of the caravan. The brothers are in my regular lineup, either one or both depending on whether I want to go heavy defense or not. I use them mainly for tanking and shield-walling. Bloody Flail does take useful part in my battles, but not quite to the same degree as, say, it would for Coolguye, since I don't focus on surrounding enemies the brothers are fighting (I mean, if I can pull it off without damaging my overall strategy, sure, but otherwise not really). Mainly its strength for me lies in that even if the brothers should be weakened to near-death from tanking blows, Flailing still allows them to deal a useful amount of armor or strength damage (and armor damage can always translate to strength damage, with Puncture archers in the background), which at that point in a battle can help reduce a barely functional enemy into a useless one. As the brothers' strength doesn't have to stay topped for them to keep doing damage, it effectively becomes an additional layer of ablative armor. This does makes them above-average tanks and I could see why someone would prefer them over Egil if they had to make that choice. That said, Flailing's random damage pattern has screwed me over before when all I needed was a single strength or armor damage, so be careful of trying to use it to make the enemy strength versus your armor (and vice verse) balance satisfactory. The RNG of the Banner Saga is as cruel as in any other game.
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May 6, 2014 22:25
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Yeah, the thing that makes Hogun and Mogun so incredible is that not only do they have one of the most useful offensive moves in the game, they also have shields that buff anyone around them. Combine that with their okay Armor potentials and they're also really hard to put down. Oh, and their ability gets more powerful with the more people they're buffing, and getting buffed by. I can't possibly see any synergies here at all. I personally don't focus too much on surrounding enemies unless they're obviously dangerous, but I love Bloody Flail because it's pretty much guaranteed to knock down the threat level of an enemy a notch. It will take a dangerous enemy and make them marginal, or a marginal enemy and make them useless. Contrast this to Egil, who requires like 3 levels to be super useful, and can frequently pop his ability with nothing at all useful coming of it (see last battle).
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May 6, 2014 22:46
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