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ImpAtom posted:No, Alpha 3 does it too. he just shows up after the stage and is like "man, that was a close one." Huh, why did I think you had to keep Mu in the Mobius Zero to keep him alive.
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May 5, 2014 09:25
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The best thing about J making no sense was how they wanted you to pretend that the lovely mass produced tekkamen were a big deal for unexplained reasons. e: By the way, Update in the last page! GimmickMan fucked around with this message at 10:48 on May 5, 2014 |
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May 5, 2014 10:30
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GimmickMan posted:The best thing about J making no sense was how they wanted you to pretend that the lovely mass produced tekkamen were a big deal for unexplained reasons. And they never show up again, because god loving forbid that the Federation use anything but SEED Grunts, because then we might have to actually have to crossover SEED with something.
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May 5, 2014 10:33
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Onmi posted:Huh, why did I think you had to keep Mu in the Mobius Zero to keep him alive. It's even better than that. If you keep Mu in the Mobius Zero it does the scene exactly the same, so he just tanks an anti-fortress cannon in his lovely Ball-alike jet and survives.
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May 5, 2014 10:34
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AradoBalanga posted:I'd show off how 00 handled Lockon's death. If nearly every search for video featuring the death scene didn't link back to AMVs using random stupid songs over the actual death, among which includes that one goddamn Simple Plan song (you know the one). This starts playing music at one point but it's just the show's ending starting like it always did. Now excuse me, I think I have something in my eye.
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May 5, 2014 11:36
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ActionZero posted:This starts playing music at one point but it's just the show's ending starting like it always did. Wow it sure is weird that it's raining inside, maybe I've been awake for too long and my eyes are water.
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May 5, 2014 11:46
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Onmi posted:And they never show up again, because god loving forbid that the Federation use anything but SEED Grunts, because then we might have to actually have to crossover SEED with something. And I am the one who has to write lots of words about that in the future!  Yeah, actual crossing over of stuff is very much an issue J doesn't do very well. The stories are very much in their own little bubbles that occasionally nudge each other. There are a few nice things, like the alliance the Jovians and Gradosians had going on, and those lovely Delphiniums from Nadesico being part of the SEED Federation. ...Really, Nadesico in general is where all the good tying in stuff happens (Eiji in Naze Nani Nadesico  ), but the game as a whole is very focused on SEED for a lot of it, and that's kept very vanilla. Mu and Nicol should've totally been savable, but alas. They even do that weird thing SRW does sometimes where a canon thing that happens (the IWSP pack) is made into a secret. W is definitely where one ought to go when looking for how SEED should go - far more focused on the awesomer spinoff manga and only even present in half of the game.
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May 5, 2014 14:05
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I get that they tend to play stuff straighter when series are making their debut (I'm pretty sure you play through every single episode of Code Geass in the Z2 games) but the lack of crossover is still annoying. Even Geass had lots of crossover with VOTOMS.
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May 5, 2014 17:24
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The Z universe is definitely very very good with crossover. Arguably that's what makes the first Z's story so tight-feeling and natural despite literally being about universes of all these different shows colliding together - it's all written like the events of these shows are indeed taking place in the same world, and indeed, occur because that's the logical course of events for how things have happened, and not just because it's part of the show and so the story needs to bend to make for the individual show's scenario. Things of plot intrigue have common origins in the past - Turn A and Aquarion, of all things, having a history together seems very rational in Z. Having a core original story that really serves as the core and is really interesting and unusual also helps. J does have trouble with linking stuff together, and it plays out like a lot of 'this stage is that one episode from G Gundam' 'this stage is that one episode of Layzner' back and forth. At the very least, they made the Federation people from SEED, Tekkaman, Nadesico, and such all the same one Federation, but that's kind of a base line for having those entities in a game. Plus...well, the core of the story really is SEED and not original stuff - those guys are just sort of there to provide a final boss.
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May 5, 2014 17:36
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Endorph posted:I get that they tend to play stuff straighter when series are making their debut (I'm pretty sure you play through every single episode of Code Geass in the Z2 games) but the lack of crossover is still annoying. Even Geass had lots of crossover with VOTOMS. They don't even have that excuse, because Alpha 3 came before J (a game which it derailed by forcing a good chunk of your units to hang around the Earth routes when the rest of the game takes place almost entirely in space, even Evangelion). J just had half-baked writing.
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May 5, 2014 18:04
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Gyra_Solune posted:They even do that weird thing SRW does sometimes where a canon thing that happens (the IWSP pack) is made into a secret. W is definitely where one ought to go when looking for how SEED should go - far more focused on the awesomer spinoff manga and only even present in half of the game. If memory serves the IWSP isn't in SEED, it's an MSV for sure, but it's not in the actual series. Heck, even in SEED HD they just redo it so Mu's dinking around with the Perfect Strike instead of the hilarious insanity that is the IWSP.
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May 5, 2014 18:33
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IWSP never showed up in SEED. It's pretty much just a relic of the original low sci-fi SEED anyways, so it wouldn't have made sense for it to pop up.
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May 5, 2014 20:10
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IWSP showed up but only in the opening to SEED Destiny. It has since been effectively replaced by Perfect Strike and Strike Rouge Phoenix. The 'canonically' story has varied. Either "Cagalli used it in SEED's final battle but offscreen" (video games) or "it was created to be a propaganda upgrade for Cagalli's robot" (model kits.).
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May 5, 2014 22:19
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ImpAtom posted:IWSP showed up but only in the opening to SEED Destiny. It has since been effectively replaced by Perfect Strike and Strike Rouge Phoenix. The 'canonically' story has varied. Either "Cagalli used it in SEED's final battle but offscreen" (video games) or "it was created to be a propaganda upgrade for Cagalli's robot" (model kits.). I thought it was developed for the Strike but Cagalli's neither a Coordinator or Mu La Flaga so she couldn't really use it properly.
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May 5, 2014 22:23
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Yeah I could've sworn the IWSP like...happened in SEED, it just saw no real use because it was stated to be very impractical and hard to actually pilot.
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May 5, 2014 23:05
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Gyra_Solune posted:Yeah I could've sworn the IWSP like...happened in SEED, it just saw no real use because it was stated to be very impractical and hard to actually pilot. Nah, they never even mentioned it. Once Kira returns with the Freedom, Mu takes the Strike, and he only uses the Launcher and Aile packs with it in the regular series and the Perfect Strike in the HD remake. It was used in extra material for the CE timeline but it was never actually shown in either TV series.
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May 6, 2014 00:18
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Aren't the IWSP and the Perfect Strike basically the same "Give the Strike the ability of all three Striker Packs at once" design anyway?
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May 6, 2014 00:27
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Spiritus Nox posted:Aren't the IWSP and the Perfect Strike basically the same "Give the Strike the ability of all three Striker Packs at once" design anyway? Yeah, the primary difference is the Perfect Strike is literally the 3 Striker Packs stuck together with about 5-6 batteries to power the unit, and the IWSP uses the idea of 3 packs but with different weaponry (two medium sized swords, missiles on the wings, railguns on the shoulders, etc.)
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May 6, 2014 00:37
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TARDISman posted:I thought it was developed for the Strike but Cagalli's neither a Coordinator or Mu La Flaga so she couldn't really use it properly. The opposite actually. The IWSP was (in theory) supposed to be an upgrade to the Strike specifically designed so Cagalli could use it better. That is why you have to use her to unlock it in SRWA3 and such. The idea was that since it had no beam weapons besides the boomerang that it would be easier to use. (The Strike Rouge also has a "battery extender" which gives it significantly increased operational time and tints the armor a different shade.) The Ootori and the Perfect Strike basically fill the exact same niche. The Ootori in particular is weird because it's like the lovechild of the IWSP and the Perfect Strike. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:46 on May 6, 2014 |
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May 6, 2014 00:43
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ImpAtom posted:The idea was that since it had no beam weapons besides the boomerang that it would be easier to use. ...That doesn't make any sense. I thought the reason Naturals couldn't initially use mobile suits was supposed to be that they hadn't developed an OS that streamlined enough of the whole "manage a bipedal robot with a diverse array of subsystems" thing enough for someone with ordinary cognitive abilities to manage. What would beam weapons have to do with that?
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May 6, 2014 00:47
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Spiritus Nox posted:...That doesn't make any sense. I thought the reason Naturals couldn't initially use mobile suits was supposed to be that they hadn't developed an OS that streamlined enough of the whole "manage a bipedal robot with a diverse array of subsystems" thing enough for someone with ordinary cognitive abilities to manage. What would beam weapons have to do with that? "Easier to use without running out of energy." A big thing (in theory) with the early SEED suits is that they ate energy like woah. Lowe Gear in Astray makes a solid katana for his Astray despite it has a beam saber for the same reason. Kira doesn't need it because he's a superhuman and thus both less likely to miss and less likely to get hit, both of which eat up energy more quickly. The Perfect Strike gets around the same problem by strapping a whole bunch of batteries to the suit. By the time Mu takes over the Strike, nobody has trouble piloting it. In fact Cagalli is going to take the Strike first before Mu pops up and is like "nah, I'm the better pilot so I'm taking it" and they get into an argument over it. SRWJ actually references this scene by having Mu and Cagalli argue over who gets the IWSP instead. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:53 on May 6, 2014 |
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May 6, 2014 00:48
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Gyra_Solune posted:Yeah I could've sworn the IWSP like...happened in SEED, it just saw no real use because it was stated to be very impractical and hard to actually pilot.
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May 6, 2014 00:55
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It always made me laugh that Naturals "can't pilot MS without a streamlined OS" because when it comes up in SRW it just makes everyone from SEED look like a retard. It's also funny because Fukuda's main goal for Gundam SEED was "0079 from the point of view of the normal person, where the Newtype (Mu La Flaga) doesn't do everything."
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May 6, 2014 00:56
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AradoBalanga posted:You might be thinking of the Lightning Striker pack that kind of got mentioned in SEED. This was supposed to go to Mwu...but then the Kusunagi's staff (who are all Morgenrote employees and built the drat thing) damages the pack during testing beyond repair. W then made it a secret that involved Mwu's kill count and he auto-equips it on stage 46 if you got it. It's actually Mu who damages it, if I recall correct. It actually first showed up in the GBA SEED game along with a bunch of other silly semi-canonical stuff like the Hamster that Athrun made for Cagalli or the fact that the Archangel's pilot has a crush on Natarle. (In the game, in fact, he can rescue her from her canonical death if I recall correct.) Boy, I sure remember a depressing amount of poo poo about this series. Onmi posted:It always made me laugh that Naturals "can't pilot MS without a streamlined OS" because when it comes up in SRW it just makes everyone from SEED look like a retard. Well, SEED has been in exactly one SRW game with another Gundam show and that was Alpha 3 where it was pretty shoehorned in in general. It's actually only been in 3 SRWs period in fact, barring secret units, which is a little surprising. Destiny gets all the showing when it comes to that franchise.
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May 6, 2014 00:57
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ImpAtom posted:It's actually Mu who damages it, if I recall correct. It actually first showed up in the GBA SEED game along with a bunch of other silly semi-canonical stuff like the Hamster that Athrun made for Cagalli or the fact that the Archangel's pilot has a crush on Natarle. (In the game, in fact, he can rescue her from her canonical death if I recall correct.) What, does G Gundam not exist? Does Wing? Where are you quantifying that from? Incidentally, SRW could you remember that G-Gundam has normally piloted Mobile Suits that aren't the Death Army.
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May 6, 2014 01:04
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Onmi posted:What, does G Gundam not exist? Does Wing? Where are you quantifying that from? G Gundam, yeah, is defined by its goofy kung-fu suits and SRW only rarely remembers it has anything else. (MX is the only one I can think of in that case where Hugo was piloting one when he was infected.) Wing was only in W where they instead focused on the fact that the SEED guys were off by themselves instead.
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May 6, 2014 01:15
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Onmi posted:Incidentally, SRW could you remember that G-Gundam has normally piloted Mobile Suits that aren't the Death Army.
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May 6, 2014 01:24
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Uh, all three of the games SEED has shown up in have had other Gundams. Alpha 3, which was UC as gently caress, J, which had G Gundam shoved in there really awkwardly, and W, which had Wing but mostly focused on the Astray crew until the end.
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May 6, 2014 01:26
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SEED, some UC stuff, DX and Turn A are also all in the game the precedes this one since everyone seems to have forgotten that exists and it's not exactly spoilers now considering we've met series from Z1 and know it exists.
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May 6, 2014 05:44
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HiKaizer posted:SEED, some UC stuff, DX and Turn A are also all in the game the precedes this one since everyone seems to have forgotten that exists and it's not exactly spoilers now considering we've met series from Z1 and know it exists. He's referring specifically to Vanilla SEED I believe. Which doesn't stop it being dumb in Seed Destiny because seriously why do naturals need a specific OS to pilot a SEED MS? Though honestly given exactly what happens in the SEED universe "Everyone is a loving retard" is probably true.
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May 6, 2014 05:51
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HiKaizer posted:SEED, some UC stuff, DX and Turn A are also all in the game the precedes this one since everyone seems to have forgotten that exists and it's not exactly spoilers now considering we've met series from Z1 and know it exists. SEED Destiny is in Z1 and by that point the OS thing is non-existent. SEED proper has only been in 3 games.
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May 6, 2014 05:55
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Not having watched Destiny I didn't realise that wasn't an issue any more. SEED on its own was quite enough for me thankyou!
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May 6, 2014 05:56
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HiKaizer posted:Not having watched Destiny I didn't realise that wasn't an issue any more. SEED on its own was quite enough for me thankyou! It's not in the sense that no one ever brings it up, but it's still basically the truth.
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May 6, 2014 05:59
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Onmi posted:It's not in the sense that no one ever brings it up, but it's still basically the truth. It isn't actually the case because they developed working OSes midway through the last show and there's no actual division beyond that point. It is like how nobody has trouble with their joints burning out post 0079 because it's assumed that the machines have magnetic coating or something equivalent. SEED is dumb but the OS plot point is just basically a minor update of the Learning Computer stuff from the original Gundam where they needed Amuro's combat data to make the GMs not a pile of poo poo. The gimmick with the original-gen SEED Gundams wasn't 'they can't move at all," it was that they were awkward, slow and unwieldy and difficult to pilot in comparison to the Literally Superhuman enemies they faced. Hell, Lowe's computer that he uses in place of the OS is Strongly Implied to be (or is functionally identical to) the RX-78-2's Learning Computer somehow or another. It's silly to emphasize it in a crossover setting which is why it rarely happens. It's also the reason they rarely use 0079 because it suffers from similar issues. (See: SRWGC which hilariously has the Dragonar units on the same colony as the RX-78-2 and White Base.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 06:15 on May 6, 2014 |
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May 6, 2014 06:09
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ImpAtom posted:SEED is dumb but the OS plot point is just basically a minor update of the Learning Computer stuff from the original Gundam where they needed Amuro's combat data to make the GMs not a pile of poo poo. The gimmick with the original-gen SEED Gundams wasn't 'they can't move at all," it was that they were awkward, slow and unwieldy and difficult to pilot in comparison to the Literally Superhuman enemies they faced. Hell, Lowe's computer that he uses in place of the OS is Strongly Implied to be (or is functionally identical to) the RX-78-2's Learning Computer somehow or another. Not even once. For one, Federation pilots could and did pilot Zaku's with no trouble. For another, the Learning Computer plot point was dropped almost immediately, since the idea behind it was it would grow and learn how to pilot the RX-78-2 on its own. The point of taking Amuro's combat data was to immediately have programmed movements for the GM series, which was something Zeon had as well, after all the Guncannon and Guntank had no Learning Computer and maneuvered completely fine in the hands of non-newtypes. In short, it's not even a minor update, it's a nothing. It's an excuse as to why no other person on the ship can use the Strike. And in the SRW setting it's even dumber, even discounting the Super Robots that all share varied control schemes and Aestivalis which need an uplink, and the Mobile Fighters and presumably mobile suits like the Butler Bentoussen which is not piloted by the Mobile Trace System. Ignoring all of those, there's still the Armslaves, which all move and are controlled perfectly fine by utterly normal human beings, yet there's no explanation why the Federation so desperately needs the Strike. Or why MS are so superior that Naturals can't pilot them. And even in SEED Destiny, even if there's an OS for every natural pilot, it doesn't change the fact that naturals are so stupid they need dedicated OS to use Mobile Suits. The reason it's dumb to use 0079 or SEED in an SRW game is unless you start the game off on the colony, or move to it in the first few stages, you always wind up with the issue that A. The Gundam is not a new tool to change the face of the war B. There's no reason to deploy Amuro in the Gundam because you have all these units extra. And J's excuse to get out of that is the dumbest thing as well "Oh, we can't trust the 14 other guys who showed up to protect us over the other ship, this is why we have to send a Civilian who we can't trust with no piloting skills out there to protect us. Also, if you make your series too high tech for the earth-bound ones, like say... a series where the grunts all have laser weapons, it makes you ask "Why is this thing a big deal" which is exactly what you ask about the Strike in J. It needs to be revolutionary in some way to remain a big deal such as the RX-78-2 being the first MS to feature portable beam weaponry that isn't a Super Robot. And this has derailed way too far, and there is a perfectly good SRW General thread we can take this to.
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May 6, 2014 07:05
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I had assumed that part of the problem was that the Earth made mobile suits were also inferior to the Plant made ones. I mean look at the Freedom and Justice. They're pretty great and just trample everything else under foot. Being super humans I always thought that the Plants were better at designing mobile suits as well as piloting them, which just cemented their advantage.
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May 6, 2014 07:54
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HiKaizer posted:I had assumed that part of the problem was that the Earth made mobile suits were also inferior to the Plant made ones. I mean look at the Freedom and Justice. They're pretty great and just trample everything else under foot. Being super humans I always thought that the Plants were better at designing mobile suits as well as piloting them, which just cemented their advantage. Actually that's partially what Gundam: The Origin does. The Federation has Guncannons and Guntanks before the war but they're all old-type mobile suits with manipulator claws and outmatched by the new-type mobile suits like the Zaku II (These not referring to the Oldtype/Newtype of character, but rather the full shift of mobile suits to weapons of war.) The Gundams main reason for existence was proof of a Federation New-Type mobile suit, as well as the Beam Rifle and all the tech advancements that brings. So while vanilla 0079 would struggle in most SRWs, The Origin actually lends itself very well. Sorry to harp on this idea, but say for 0079, the main thing is to limit Real Robot series on-earth to ones of the same tech level. So Votoms, FMP, Code Geass. None of those machines can wield beam weaponry. In the case of Armslaves, they aren't space capable, and in the case of Armored Troopers like the Scopedog, they are very fragile. And Super Robots like Mazinger Z are certainly capable, but they're also super expensive time sinks owned privately. So even with Mazinger Z and Getter Robo, you can't mass produce and field an army of them. I actually really like that Z keeps itself mindful of that when it comes to the worlds BEFORE they come together. Because it's not just crossing over shows that's important, it's making them all feel still distinctly like themselves, yet also apart of the world they inhabit.
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May 6, 2014 08:24
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Onmi posted:Actually that's partially what Gundam: The Origin does. The Federation has Guncannons and Guntanks before the war but they're all old-type mobile suits with manipulator claws and outmatched by the new-type mobile suits like the Zaku II (These not referring to the Oldtype/Newtype of character, but rather the full shift of mobile suits to weapons of war.) The Gundams main reason for existence was proof of a Federation New-Type mobile suit, as well as the Beam Rifle and all the tech advancements that brings. So while vanilla 0079 would struggle in most SRWs, The Origin actually lends itself very well. You're wrong.
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May 6, 2014 13:47
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GilliamYaeger posted:http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Project_V Did you just show me something from Vanilla Mobile Suit Gundam 0079, when I'm specifically talking about Gundam: The Origin, the manga series where Guncannons and Guntanks did in fact, exist before the Gundam, and were not a result of Project V? Do you maybe wanna go read the Origin? It's got quite a few differences from MSG  Because I personally recommend you do
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May 6, 2014 13:54
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Onmi posted:Did you just show me something from Vanilla Mobile Suit Gundam 0079, when I'm specifically talking about Gundam: The Origin, the manga series where Guncannons and Guntanks did in fact, exist before the Gundam, and were not a result of Project V?
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May 6, 2014 14:02
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