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xanthan posted:Didn't it have some extremely horribly worded ability, Iron Heart Surge or something, that was so vague as to be useless without house rules? Also something about martial arts that light you on fire. That would be Iron Heart Surge, which states "When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately." Perfectly usable, it's just people deliberately misinterpreting it to mean that you can do things like extinguish the sun or turn off gravity.
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May 6, 2014 13:51
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Yeah that's dumb. Sunlight and gravity are not effects with durations.
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May 6, 2014 14:22
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Cat Mattress posted:Yeah that's dumb. Sunlight and gravity are not effects with durations. Nah it's pretty cool, actually. Just go invisible for a round or let em fly/jump super high through sheer willpower by saying 'Yeah, no. Not even the world itself can hold me down.'
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May 6, 2014 16:18
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Nah it's pretty cool, actually. Just go invisible for a round or let em fly/jump super high through sheer willpower by saying 'Yeah, no. Not even the world itself can hold me down.' The problem is, it wasn't just for a round. It just straight up ended the effect. So if you ended gravity, congratulations, everything dies because they all get flung into orbit. Ending the sunlight will, likewise, kill everyone from causing the world to freeze over. Mind you, if I had to houserule it, it would definitely be of the "you can fly for a bit under your own willpower" because that's just hilarious.
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May 6, 2014 16:28
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e: I shouldn't leave pages open so long.
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May 6, 2014 16:41
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Cat Mattress posted:Yeah that's dumb. Sunlight and gravity are not effects with durations. It has a duration, the duration is just several billion years.
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May 6, 2014 16:44
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If you're that deliberately anal about it you also have to consider that Iron Heart Surge says "a duration of 1 or more rounds," meaning the effect to be ended has to be measured in rounds. Anything that says "1 min./level" or "1 hour" is right out. So is "permanent," and gravity must have permanent duration, because it doesn't just run out unless someone renews it. ... unless there's some seriously silly splatbook about the gods' daily duties.
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May 6, 2014 16:56
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My Lovely Horse posted:If you're that deliberately anal about it you also have to consider that Iron Heart Surge says "a duration of 1 or more rounds," meaning the effect to be ended has to be measured in rounds. Anything that says "1 min./level" or "1 hour" is right out. So is "permanent," and gravity must have permanent duration, because it doesn't just run out unless someone renews it. That sounds like it could be a fun idea. Like, gravity is casted on regions, and the responsible god doesn't pay attention to some spots as much because no one goes there, so every few days/months/years that area has lower gravity and you can use that to access a hidden floating island or something.
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May 6, 2014 18:29
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Angela Christine posted:It has a duration, the duration is just several billion years.  These effect durations are "instantaneous", they are instead constantly reapplied. Teleport to a dark place, and you are no longer affected by sunlight; plane shift to the astral plane and you are no longer affected by gravity. Whereas these transportation spells wouldn't interrupt timed effects like the usual buffs and debuffs.
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May 6, 2014 18:40
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Trap sprung?
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May 6, 2014 18:41
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My reading of it doesn't mention anything about the source of whatever is causing the "effect" on the character, only the "effect" on the character ends. For example; if a bunch of adventurers have been dazzled for a handful of rounds by a spell, if a PC has the Iron Heart Surge and uses it, only that person is "cured" of the effect. The other adventurers who eschew splatbooks? Still dazzled. It's a bit of a stretch to read that the source of the effect itself ends. So a drow could use it to forgo the negative effect it suffers under the sun, in theory, it just does nothing to the sun itself.
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May 6, 2014 18:46
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Yeah, but the whole thing's pretty easily negated by the fact that there's a list of status effects and what they do. Poisoned means this, Stunned means that, and so on. Neither Gravity nor Illuminated by the Sun are on the freakin' list. I'll give points to any player clever enough to try this, then I'll say "NO!" and move on. Serious points taken off for any DM dumb enough to let this happen in his or her game, though.
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May 6, 2014 18:58
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Roland Jones posted:Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords or whatever was that for 3.5e. It was great, it made melee characters actually useful, and gave them more things to do in a fight than full attack every round. I'd argue that it's one of if not the best things in 3.5e. My group that I played D&D with on IRC when it came out didn't initially want anything to do with it (except for like one other guy) not because of any inherent power issues... they just didn't want to have to learn a new magic system and memorize a new spell list. 
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May 6, 2014 18:59
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Red Metal posted:That would be Iron Heart Surge, which states "When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately." Perfectly usable, it's just people deliberately misinterpreting it to mean that you can do things like extinguish the sun or turn off gravity. People being stupidly hyper literal with 3.5 rules? Why I never
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May 6, 2014 22:05
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My Lovely Horse posted:If you're that deliberately anal about it you also have to consider that Iron Heart Surge says "a duration of 1 or more rounds," meaning the effect to be ended has to be measured in rounds. Anything that says "1 min./level" or "1 hour" is right out. So is "permanent," and gravity must have permanent duration, because it doesn't just run out unless someone renews it. Miracle: hey sun god could you make the sun rise a couple hours later tomorrow, i'm planning on some serious drinking tonight
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May 6, 2014 22:45
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Shugojin posted:Miracle: hey sun god could you make the sun rise a couple hours later tomorrow, i'm planning on some serious drinking tonight Though with that the Sun God can say "No"
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May 7, 2014 06:42
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jng2058 posted:Yeah, but the whole thing's pretty easily negated by the fact that there's a list of status effects and what they do. Poisoned means this, Stunned means that, and so on. Neither Gravity nor Illuminated by the Sun are on the freakin' list. Depends on how the DM handles it. "Okay you turned off the sun. Everything dies. The end. Everybody roll up new characters."
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May 7, 2014 06:57
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Iron Heart Surge ended any spell, effect, or condition on you. Stunned? Nauseated? Confused? Level Drained? Pregnant? Poor? Kinda peckish, not exactly hungry, but you could eat? Held to the earth by Gravity? Old? Stupid? Dirty? Human? Socially oppressed? Limited by the first, second, or third law of thermodynamics? Iron Heart Surge could fix that.
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May 7, 2014 10:06
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Mystic Mongol posted:Iron Heart Surge ended any spell, effect, or condition on you. Stunned? Nauseated? Confused? Level Drained? Pregnant? Poor? Kinda peckish, not exactly hungry, but you could eat? Held to the earth by Gravity? Old? Stupid? Dirty? Human? Socially oppressed? Limited by the first, second, or third law of thermodynamics? Iron Heart Surge could fix that. And so the war-blade entered the villains lair, for the villain to state "Just you mister fighter? I don't even need to worry about you pulling any magic tricks! You're going to be the one to kill me?" and he responded "No... Not at all" "Oh, you have some trick planned where the rest of your party is hi-" "No, The rest of my party is on a different plane. I'm saying I'm not going to just kill you, I'm going to kill everything in a 2 mile radius" "Oh! How do you plan on doing that mister fighter? Stabbing everyone a lot and yelling?" "Physics" And so the war-blade used Iron Heart Surge to end his condition of "being made of matter", The energy binding his molecule and atoms and particles together was freed and was instantly converted into 1.51 gigaton of TNT, and so the kingdom of evil was brought down by unleashing a nuclear device and a soldier proving he truly had an iron heart.
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May 7, 2014 10:37
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Are "effect" and "condition" seriously not defined for the game anywhere? e: like I would actually be surprised.
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May 7, 2014 10:41
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Mystic Mongol posted:Iron Heart Surge ended any spell, effect, or condition on you. Stunned? Nauseated? Confused? Level Drained? Pregnant? Poor? Kinda peckish, not exactly hungry, but you could eat? Held to the earth by Gravity? Old? Stupid? Dirty? Human? Socially oppressed? Limited by the first, second, or third law of thermodynamics? Iron Heart Surge could fix that. Yeah, Iron Heart Surge buggery is people deliberately ignoring that effects and conditions are game-terms with specific definitions - sort of like people wanting to name purple or brown when a Magic card says 'colour of your choice'.
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May 7, 2014 11:25
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Allstone posted:Yeah, Iron Heart Surge buggery is people deliberately ignoring that effects and conditions are game-terms with specific definitions - sort of like people wanting to name purple or brown when a Magic card says 'colour of your choice'. Bu- but to do that they would have to be... nerds
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May 7, 2014 11:41
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Red Metal posted:That would be Iron Heart Surge, which states "When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately." Perfectly usable, it's just people deliberately misinterpreting it to mean that you can do things like extinguish the sun or turn off gravity. I'm not sure why this is so confusing. It says the effect ends not the thing causing it. So if indeed you are dazzled by bright light the dazzle ends, not the light or the sun. Then it resumes next round unless you have something else that keeps the effect or condition from reapplying. drat.
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May 7, 2014 12:20
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sebmojo posted:Bu- but to do that they would have to be... nerds This isn't even being a nerd, this is being deliberately obtuse.
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May 7, 2014 15:38
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I'm surprised nobody's brought up the fact that by the RAW, Iron Heart Surge can't even really fulfill part of its design intent. The whole point of the maneuver is to let you shake off things like being stunned, paralyzed, etc. through heroic willpower. ... except you can't use maneuvers if you're unable to take a move action. And there's no clause in Iron Heart Surge that lists it as an exception to that rule. So if you're under an effect that prevents you from being able to move, you can't use Iron Heart Surge to break the effect. 
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May 7, 2014 15:43
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Tome of Battle says "To initiate a maneuver or a stance, you must be able to move. You do not need to be able to speak." I think the intent is that you need to be able to move your body, kind of like somatic components for spells. Iron Heart Surge is a standard action anyway, so even if you could use it while unable to move, you couldn't use it while stunned or paralyzed anyway.
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May 7, 2014 15:58
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I like how one interpretation makes it reality-breaking overpowered, while the others make it completely useless. Stellar design there.
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May 7, 2014 16:03
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paradoxGentleman posted:I like how one interpretation makes it reality-breaking overpowered, while the others make it completely useless. Stellar design there. Lets not be over generous by calling the first one an "interpretation".
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May 7, 2014 16:37
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paradoxGentleman posted:I like how one interpretation makes it reality-breaking overpowered, while the others make it completely useless. Stellar design there. It's not completely useless, just that it can't actually do the things you would expect it to do. It still completely removes a bunch of really bad effects from you, most notably that it's a 100% surefire way to blow up an antimagic field.
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May 7, 2014 16:56
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The various efforts to bolt new official systems onto the side of 3.x/D20 (Magic of Incarnum, Book of Nine Swords, Tome of Magic, even the Psionics rulebooks) were always, always a half-baked mess when actually put into use. ...which isn't so much of a knock against WotC as it is a measure of just how hard it is to make functional, balanced game mechanics that will be picked and pored over by a giant audience of rules lawyers who are looking for any possible loophole to gain an advantage (or to show off their giant superior brains). Those supplements had just a tiny development and playtesting budget compared to the core books, so it's no wonder they weren't tested to destruction before release.
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May 7, 2014 17:11
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You speak as if the corebooks to 3.x were tested with any particular vigor.
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May 7, 2014 17:42
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The "mess with the sun" thing doesn't sound that terrible of a read of the rule actually, because there are plenty of myths where the hero did stuff like that. Even the Bible had Yahweh stop the sun for Joshua. Heck, in real life you had this: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England%27s_Dark_Day Which allowed revolutionary forces to escape the British army Obviously the GM needs to instill some sense but huge effects like that are pretty reasonable if you are taking a mythic tone to the game.
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May 7, 2014 17:42
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Dr Pepper posted:You speak as if the corebooks to 3.x were tested with any particular vigor.
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May 7, 2014 17:45
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FMguru posted:The various efforts to bolt new official systems onto the side of 3.x/D20 (Magic of Incarnum, Book of Nine Swords, Tome of Magic, even the Psionics rulebooks) were always, always a half-baked mess when actually put into use.
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May 7, 2014 17:58
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Nihilarian posted:The Psionics rules were mostly fine The second time around, yes. The original psionics rules were terrible.
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May 7, 2014 19:25
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My Lovely Horse posted:Are "effect" and "condition" seriously not defined for the game anywhere? Of course they weren't. And while people may feel confident saying that being poisoned is a condition, being slowed is an effect, and the human condition is neither, at that point you're talking about extremes. A mind-influencing effect that prevents you from attacking a naiad is probably an effect, but is being convinced by a naiad bard's diplomacy roll of 78 not to fight her one? Does it matter if she got that score from magical buffs to her skill? Is immobilized an effect if it's caused by being waist deep in tar? Covered in nets? Manacled to a wall? Immured in a wall? If some or all of those immobilizing effects are magical constructs of force, does that matter? How about if they were created by a conjuration spell? Or wished into being? Can you Iron Heart Surge away effects like illusions that you are not aware of, if you IHS away something you are aware of? If you're poisoned, using an iron heart surge probably doesn't let you see through an illusionary wall, but if you think you've been poisoned by an illusionary scorpion, does IHS destroy the illusion of the poison, or the illusion of the scorpion, or both, or neither, and does it stop the illusion for just you or for everyone? And most importantly, are you sure your DM/Players will agree with you on whatever edge case crops up in your game? The power was designed in a laboratory to cause as many arguments as possible.
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May 7, 2014 19:44
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fool_of_sound posted:The second time around, yes. The original psionics rules were terrible. Fair enough.
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May 7, 2014 19:57
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Mystic Mongol posted:Of course they weren't. And while people may feel confident saying that being poisoned is a condition, being slowed is an effect, and the human condition is neither, at that point you're talking about extremes. A mind-influencing effect that prevents you from attacking a naiad is probably an effect, but is being convinced by a naiad bard's diplomacy roll of 78 not to fight her one? Does it matter if she got that score from magical buffs to her skill? Is immobilized an effect if it's caused by being waist deep in tar? Covered in nets? Manacled to a wall? Immured in a wall? If some or all of those immobilizing effects are magical constructs of force, does that matter? How about if they were created by a conjuration spell? Or wished into being? Can you Iron Heart Surge away effects like illusions that you are not aware of, if you IHS away something you are aware of? If you're poisoned, using an iron heart surge probably doesn't let you see through an illusionary wall, but if you think you've been poisoned by an illusionary scorpion, does IHS destroy the illusion of the poison, or the illusion of the scorpion, or both, or neither, and does it stop the illusion for just you or for everyone? I was going to go through an answer each of these individually with a simple yes or no, but I'm going to get straight to the point: Most of this is pretty common sense stuff if your gaming group isn't comprised of borderline autistic rules lawyers.
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May 7, 2014 20:00
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Captain Oblivious posted:Most of this is pretty common sense stuff if your gaming group isn't comprised of borderline autistic rules lawyers.
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May 7, 2014 20:03
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Captain Oblivious posted:I was going to go through an answer each of these individually with a simple yes or no, but I'm going to get straight to the point: Save us from common sense enshrined as rules.
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May 7, 2014 20:07
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