|
http://news.usni.org/2014/05/07/hanoi-chinese-ships-rammed-vietnamese-patrol-boats-escalating-oilrig-dispute Things are heating up between Beijing and Hanoi. On one hand, you have to respect the Vietnamese for pwning the French, the Nihonese, the French again, and then the US, then the Chinese and Khmer Rouge. On the other hand, my Mao lighter is a symbol of my leftist solidarity and individuality, just like everyone else in the Che Brigade. The Vietnamese get my vote. I love pho.
|
#
?
May 7, 2014 20:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 19, 2024 13:31 |
|
|
Literally none of China's neighbours likes China, this isn't exclusive to Vietnam.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2014 22:00
|
|
|
Fojar38 posted:Literally none of China's neighbours likes China, this isn't exclusive to Vietnam. Pakistan kind of likes China
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2014 22:02
|
|
|
esquilax posted:Pakistan kind of likes China China has been solicitous of Burma and North Korea too.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2014 22:13
|
|
|
TheImmigrant posted:China has been solicitous of Burma and North Korea too. I can't believe you forgot the close friendship between Tajikistan('s government) and China.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2014 22:16
|
|
|
I wouldn't say tensions have been any higher or lower in the thousand year plus history the two nations have hated each other.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 00:57
|
|
|
TheImmigrant posted:http://news.usni.org/2014/05/07/hanoi-chinese-ships-rammed-vietnamese-patrol-boats-escalating-oilrig-dispute As an ethnic han, I would like to inform your that almost all pho in north america is served in han chinese viet restaurants. pwned
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 03:36
|
|
|
Fojar38 posted:Literally none of China's neighbours likes China, this isn't exclusive to Vietnam. it's the loud arrogant America equivalent for Asia
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 04:46
|
|
|
TheImmigrant posted:China has been solicitous of Burma and North Korea too. It hasn't engendered much love on the street. Most Burmese dislike China and lots of them use casual racial slurs to refer to all Chinese people.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 04:52
|
|
|
etalian posted:it's the loud arrogant America equivalent for Asia Also, the ethnic Chinese minority in Southeast Asia are basically the Jewish people of the region. They control large amounts of wealth and don't deal fairly with non-Chinese people. If you have a powerful Chinese government, this makes things worse when it becomes assumed that the ethnic Chinese in your country are running back room deals to enrich the Chinese diaspora and Chinese government at the expense of the country.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 05:13
|
|
|
TheImmigrant posted:http://news.usni.org/2014/05/07/hanoi-chinese-ships-rammed-vietnamese-patrol-boats-escalating-oilrig-dispute Don't forget the Mongolians. Vietnam is super good at guerilla warfare.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 05:23
|
|
|
Rand alPaul posted:Don't forget the Mongolians. Vietnam is super good at guerilla warfare. Also it's a stupid jungle filled with irrelevant dirt farmers if it's more difficult than just walking in and taking over most imperial powers stop caring.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 05:33
|
|
|
on the left posted:Also, the ethnic Chinese minority in Southeast Asia are basically the Jewish people of the region. They control large amounts of wealth and don't deal fairly with non-Chinese people. 
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 05:39
|
|
|
on the left posted:Also, the ethnic Chinese minority in Southeast Asia are basically the Jewish people of the region. I guess this might be the case if there was also a mega-powerful country with a billion Jews.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 05:59
|
|
|
Watermelon City posted:Yowza It's a chicken and egg problem. Ethnic Chinese are distrustful of the government and only do business with other Ethnic Chinese, then hide the wealth overseas (see: Singapore). They do this because the governments hate them and have tried to expropriate their wealth or genocide them in the past, along with a background level of steady racist laws against Chinese. They are the educated merchant class and hated by the locals for a lot of reasons, and fortunately as merchants and people who are more educated than the rest of the national population, they are able to meaningfully hold their own (and often the lion's share of national wealth, despite being single digit minority). Ytlaya posted:I guess this might be the case if there was also a mega-powerful country with a billion Jews. Almost as powerful as Israel! on the left fucked around with this message at 06:44 on May 8, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 06:41
|
|
|
on the left posted:They do this because the governments hate them and have tried to expropriate their wealth or genocide them in the past, along with a background level of steady racist laws against Chinese.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 06:58
|
|
|
You can't really lump ethnic Chinese in places like Indonesia or Singapore together with mainland Chinese.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 07:01
|
|
|
Negative Entropy posted:Sounds like an opportunity to do some Russian-style "protection" and seize territory or expand the Chinese sphere of influence through economic and military intimidation. There's not a sizeable enough clump of them to do that. Also, if I remember correctly, the largest concentration is in the middle of the country when looking North/South. It would be basically impossible shrike82 posted:You can't really lump ethnic Chinese in places like Indonesia or Singapore together with mainland Chinese. Vietnam and other SEAsian countries have a history with China and Chinese people that is pretty relevant here. Vietnam has an especially interesting relationship with China having been under Chinese rule at multiple points.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 07:08
|
|
|
Everyone always forgets poor Laos and Cambodia, China basically owns both of them (particularly Laos.)
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 12:21
|
|
|
Gail Wynand posted:Everyone always forgets poor Laos and Cambodia, China basically owns both of them (particularly Laos.) Doesn't Vietnam still pull the strings in Cambodia? Hun Sen was put into power by the Vietnamese.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 12:30
|
|
|
Negative Entropy posted:Sounds like an opportunity to do some Russian-style "protection" and seize territory or expand the Chinese sphere of influence through economic and military intimidation. sponsorship of PRC-aligned Chinese insurgencies ended with Mao, and since then the loyalties of the overseas Chinese in the former British Straits Settlements and Dutch Batavia have largely vanished
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 13:45
|
|
|
Cultural Imperial posted:As an ethnic han, I would like to inform your that almost all pho in north america is served in han chinese viet restaurants. I know some Vietnamese who would stab you for saying that, but then again if you're Han they'd pretty much lynch you on general principle.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 14:33
|
|
|
ronya posted:sponsorship of PRC-aligned Chinese insurgencies ended with Mao, and since then the loyalties of the overseas Chinese in the former British Straits Settlements and Dutch Batavia have largely vanished Are the KMT gangs running heroin in the golden triangle still a thing at all?
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 14:45
|
|
|
on the left posted:Are the KMT gangs running heroin in the golden triangle still a thing at all? Thailand recruited them to kill all the commies in Thailand in the 70s and 80s and when that was done gave them citizenship. They pretty much disbanded after that.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 15:14
|
|
|
citizenship and a modicum of rights was sufficient to buy off the Overseas Chinese, really
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 15:31
|
|
|
on the left posted:Also, the ethnic Chinese minority in Southeast Asia are basically the Jewish people of the region. They control large amounts of wealth and don't deal fairly with non-Chinese people. If you have a powerful Chinese government, this makes things worse when it becomes assumed that the ethnic Chinese in your country are running back room deals to enrich the Chinese diaspora and Chinese government at the expense of the country. Wow that's a terrible analogy. Jews don't deal fairly with non-Jewish people?
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 15:46
|
|
|
dorkasaurus_rex posted:Wow that's a terrible analogy. Jews don't deal fairly with non-Jewish people? It's a good analogy in that racists think they both participate in shadowy cabals instead of being, you know, people.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 19:29
|
|
|
Let's all remember that China actively promoted genocide in Cambodia until Vietnam went in to stop them. China then invaded Vietnam to "teach them a lesson" in stopping Chinese promoted "cultural revolutions" and the Vietnamese beat them out of the country. China is a dick in this situation cuz a guy 1000 years ago is claimed to have done a thing on the sprately islands.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2014 00:38
|
|
|
Never a bad time to admire the nine-dotted line! Oh, China, you silly jokester. 
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2014 01:16
|
|
|
ecureuilmatrix posted:Never a bad time to admire the nine-dotted line! Is it really that different from claims made by other countries? Proximity does not equal ownership.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2014 01:28
|
|
|
GlassEye-Boy posted:Is it really that different from claims made by other countries? Proximity does not equal ownership. Partly, but it is notable in just how ridiculous of a claim it is. Just look at it!
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2014 01:39
|
|
|
GlassEye-Boy posted:Is it really that different from claims made by other countries? Proximity does not equal ownership. Well, there are a lot of silly claims by other countries, sure, but that line is quite audacious; notice how it puts China in a conflict with Indonesia! Compare the second-biggest claim, Vietnam, with China's. It claims a lot of islands, but not all. PRC demands everything, all the way up to others' coastal waters. Now there are weird EEZs far from the homeland, like those silly Antartic French Islands, but they usually have the advantage of no competing claim, a clearer historical record and some undisputed human presence, however small. The Spratly and Paracels have overlapping zones, a muddied record and only recent permanent population (there's like a handful of livable islands), so it's a mess. Fishermen of all nations have been crossing each other there since time immemorial, so it cannot help define historical rights.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2014 01:50
|
|
|
Numlock posted:Partly, but it is notable in just how ridiculous of a claim it is. Just look at it! Part of me wishes there was video of an open session of the UN kinda like C-SPAN, with a presentation projecting that map onto a screen with just the China-propozed red line, flashing THIS IS WHAT THEY ACTUALLY BELIEVE underneath it. In the background you'll hear every countries' representative fall over themselves with laughter. At least that's how the UN should operate. 
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2014 12:49
|
|
|
Well, that China flashes its muscles now is hardly surprising given the situation in Ukraine. Chinas 3 main defecits were the fact that the energy they need has to come to them through naval waterways, and the amercians controll these. The second main problem is the lack of serious allys. It says a lot that Pakistan is their most serious ally right now. The third main problem is that they simultaneously had to deal with direct US containment attempts while also dealing with more sublte Indo-Russian influence games in central Asia. This subtle Indo-Russian "restrain the Chinese dragon without stepping on his toes" alliance on occassion included Vietnam. The crushing defeat Russia suffered in Ukraine likely spelled the end of a meaningfull Russian led Eurasian Union to compete with the Chinese and Western economic blocks on its own terms. Russia is no longer able to be its own side in the great power game, and since it was the west that broke their not really far reaching ambitions (seriously, the only strategical value Ukraine represents for the west is denying it to Russia), they immdiatly went to align with China. The US is a lot less able to interedict Pipelines from Russia to China than it could interdict oil tankers going to China, so Chinas sea-borne energy issues are mitigated. Russia would be a very serious military ally for China, and can make a decent claim about having the worlds second-third most powerfull military. Lastly, a Russia that allies with China will have to mitigate its alliances with India and Vietnam considerably, especially concerning the latter. To an extent, the sucky situation for Russia, whose direct ownership of Crimea is a very tiny consolation price for loosing the rest of Ukraine, is a mirrored situation for the west concerning the Eurasian Union. Controlling remaining Ukraine is a tiny consolation price for having the remaining Eurasian Union align with China. Basically, Western antics/actions in Ukraine fixed or seriously mitigated 3 of Chinas main strategic issues.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2014 13:46
|
|
|
ecureuilmatrix posted:Never a bad time to admire the nine-dotted line! Yeah, they might as well claim the Phillippines while they're at it.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2014 13:54
|
|
|
Skeesix posted:Yeah, they might as well claim the Phillippines while they're at it. Since various island nations are actually considered lines of defense by China in case of a big war, yeah.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2014 14:40
|
|
I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
|
Mightypeon posted:Well, that China flashes its muscles now is hardly surprising given the situation in Ukraine. As exciting as it is to blame everything single event in the world on villainous western meddling in Russia's rightful sphere of influence, China has been taking an aggressive stance on this issue well before anything happened in Ukraine (the same even applies to closer relations with Russia: since Xi came to power relations with Russia have steadily improved, while relations with America have deteriorated).
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2014 14:50
|
|
|
I want to bring back all of the posts I've read in this forum that plaintively said "China is not interested in conflict with its neighbors, it doesn't have a history of doing so and all it wants to do is to develop peacefully." Every China thread in the last five years was filled with those types of posts. There's also a lot of posts about China that are basically "China and the US will never get into conflict, they are too economically dependent on each other." While I'm not certain at this point that statement will prove false, my gut reaction is that it eventually prove false. Why? Because China's territorial conflict with its Asian neighbors are in large part counter to American hegemony in Asia. China wants to break out of the geopolitical status quo and it's starting in Asia by trying to push around countries in the region. America is countering that by setting up alliances and offering support to Japan, Vietnam, Philippines and basically anybody who will oppose China in the region. Japan already announced that it will be more aggressive militarily and has announced just this week it is lifting export bans on military hardware in an effort to jump start its domestic military industry. Front page of NYTimes today: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/31/world/asia/us-sway-in-asia-is-imperiled-as-china-challenges-alliances.html?hp&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/01/w...setType=nyt_now
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2014 14:57
|
|
|
dilbertschalter posted:As exciting as it is to blame everything single event in the world on villainous western meddling in Russia's rightful sphere of influence, China has been taking an aggressive stance on this issue well before anything happened in Ukraine (the same even applies to closer relations with Russia: since Xi came to power relations with Russia have steadily improved, while relations with America have deteriorated). They are more assertive now though. There is considerable movement of land forces towards the Vietnamese border. And Russia de facto kow tow before China is very significant.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2014 15:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 19, 2024 13:31 |
|
|
How significant exactly can a Russian rapprochement with China be if by your own argument the West just proved Russia to be a paper tiger? I also am hesitant to buy the notion that Russians are thrilled about the idea of Chinese dominance in Asia. "China and Russia working together to take down the West!" strikes me as Tom Clancy circlejerking. I also don't see why China would look at what happened when Russia tried to alter the status quo and go "Yep, that's a path we want to try too!" considering even minimal western sanctions melted the Russian economy over the course of three short months.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2014 00:27
|
|