BOAT SHOWBOAT posted:This poo poo doesn't matter. Are the daughters adopted? I don't know, maybe, but they don't have to be. This is a surreal, weird TV show. It doesn't have to follow the racial logic you have.
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May 13, 2014 12:57
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What does it say about me that during the whole fat girl monologue, all I could think was, "well, drat, if it makes your life so depressing and unfun, stop being fat, it takes like 6 months jesus christ"
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May 13, 2014 14:46
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man some skinny white guy in jordans and a wife beater and missing a couple teeth would date that girl like he won the lottery.
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May 13, 2014 15:25
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Both episodes last night were phenomenal and Sarah Baker's monologue was on loving point.
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May 13, 2014 16:39
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blue squares posted:What does it say about me that during the whole fat girl monologue, all I could think was, "well, drat, if it makes your life so depressing and unfun, stop being fat, it takes like 6 months jesus christ" Yeah not only did it go on way too long but christ she acted like she had cancer.
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May 13, 2014 16:50
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During the monologue itself I thought it was sort of belaboring the point, but I maybe teared up a little at the end. 
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May 13, 2014 16:59
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blue squares posted:What does it say about me that during the whole fat girl monologue, all I could think was, "well, drat, if it makes your life so depressing and unfun, stop being fat, it takes like 6 months jesus christ" I guess that you feel its ridiculous to whine about something that's within your power to change. It kind of ruined that scene for me too. My only real gripe with Louie is that sometimes to make the great and interesting point, he takes a route that has an obvious out. I liked what he was trying to say last night -- not so much the stuff about "I'm fat, why won't anyone love me!" which is just tired but the better point that the fat girl and Louie are really on the same level looks-wise, even if most guys won't admit it. But to the rejected-fat-girl stuff, there's that obvious question in everyone's mind. I think if she had been a great, funny, smart girl with a fantastic personality who just happened to be in a wheelchair, for example, it would have worked better because its out of her control, but then the thing about "to everyone else, we should be together" would have been more awkward. I think sometimes he backs himself into a corner with these ideas. The worst for me so far was all the whiny friendzone stuff with Pamela in season 2, and even worse, the episode where he goes to Miami. I get the point that male relationships are weird and they always teeter on the edge of gay or whatever, but that whole final scene I was thinking, Louie, just say you aren't gay and you haven't hung out with a dude doing dude stuff in a while, for gently caress's sake what's so hard about this? That awkward "oh well hey see no see I'm not no see hey well not that well hey no gay hey" thing was so lazy.
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May 13, 2014 17:01
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Jake Armitage posted:"oh well hey see no see I'm not no see hey well not that well hey no gay hey"
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May 13, 2014 17:39
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LividLiquid posted:I'm still a little bummed her character is gone forever.
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May 13, 2014 17:41
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the fact that you can change it wasn't the point, the point was the social struggles an overweight woman faces in comparison to a comparably overweight man. the problem for her wasn't that she was fat; I mean that's the reason why she seemed disappointed when louie just wouldn't say that. it was how people tend to shy away from using the term "fat" outright even though that's obviously what many are thinking; at least that's the sense I got. it could have been cut a little shorter though yeah.
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May 13, 2014 17:48
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I don't know about the "Hey just lose some weight you fat rear end in a top hat" argument. For some people (especially when you get older) you become a slave to habit and impulse, and it's kinda hard to break out of that cycle enough to make a significant change to your body. I think that's what the Bobby part of that episode was about, they wanted to start losing weight and all it lead to was them pigging out and saying "eeeh maybe later." Not trying to be a fat apologist nor do I want this thread to descend into that debate, but Louis C.K. himself is a pretty paunchy guy who has really horrible eating habits (and actually works out a lot to support those eating habits) and I'm guessing he'd disagree that it's that simple. Automata 10 Pack fucked around with this message at 18:40 on May 13, 2014 |
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May 13, 2014 17:54
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Seriously though a bang bang sounds awesome and I never would have thought of that. My inner glutton is going to go wild soon.
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May 13, 2014 18:01
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SaltLick posted:Seriously though a bang bang sounds awesome and I never would have thought of that. My inner glutton is going to go wild soon. Illinois Smith fucked around with this message at 18:44 on May 13, 2014 |
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May 13, 2014 18:37
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ChesterJT posted:Yeah not only did it go on way too long but christ she acted like she had cancer. as she said, she doesn't get the chance to unload that often. anyway, louis was opening up his show to let somebody worse of than them get a little empathy and i thought it was great. I would have no idea what to say in that situation, and that;s good, cos it meant i just listened
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May 13, 2014 18:49
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nuzak posted:I would have no idea what to say in that situation, and that;s good, cos it meant i just listened I would say either accept it and own it or change it if you hate it so much. Some girls are big and like it that way. They have all the self confidence in the world and love themselves for who they are. The girl on Louie acted like she was one stranger's look away from jumping off a bridge. And then she unloads on Louie like it's his fault. He shouldn't be shamed because he doesn't find her physically attractive. She brow beat him until he felt bad. That's not a happy ending, that's pathetic on her part for spreading her misery around and pathetic on Louie's part for caving in. It says a lot that she got all pissed when he tried to spare her feelings by saying she wasn't fat but she was happy when he held her hand which he was brow beaten into doing. nuzak posted:if he was brow beaten he would have let her talk. Yeah if only he would have let her get a word in... ChesterJT fucked around with this message at 19:55 on May 13, 2014 |
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May 13, 2014 19:28
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ChesterJT posted:I would say either accept it and own it or change it if you hate it so much. Some girls are big and like it that way. They have all the self confidence in the world and love themselves for who they are. The girl on Louie acted like she was one stranger's look away from jumping off a bridge. And then she unloads on Louie like it's his fault. He shouldn't be shamed because he doesn't find her physically attractive. She brow beat him until he felt bad. That's not a happy ending, that's pathetic on her part for spreading her misery around and pathetic on Louie's part for caving in. "cave into societies' demands or ignore them, for god's sake don't complain about them!" accept your weight or change is not the issue, everyone else has to accept your weight as well, otherwise you;re just going to have to smile while people piss on you. Vicky was perfectly confident in her appearance, she was flirting with louis and all sorts, but that doesn't mean she doesn't feel or notice when people say mean things, or skirt around the issue of her weight like she's a leper or something. did you listen to her at all? she actually said that when she complains about her weight and society and stuff(like louis himself does) people think she's going to commit suicide, rather than just being observant and funny and justifiably annoyed. she wasn't acting like she was going to jump off a bridge, she was getting poo poo off her chest. and she said herself (again, listen to what she said, it's on louis's youtube account) that she was just going to be a bit mean and generalise and use louis to represent all men so she could vent at men as a whole, who as a class of people, treat her like shite. and again, as she rightfully pointed out, it's not so much that louis isn't attracted to her, but that he senses his masculinity is vulnerable and could not take the "hit" of dating a fat woman, unlike the gorgeous men who do flirt confidently with her. she unloads on louie particularly because it's the straw that broke the camel's back. she was having a great time with him, briefly mentioned life as a fat woman, and then he said that she wasn't fat. they both know that's a lie, and she pointed out that all that does is confirm that her weight is stigmatising. so yeah, she unloads on him (though she acknowledges, up front, verbally, that it's because she wants to just speak to men as a whole, but all she has is louis) but you can't say he didn't hurt her feelings and therefore didn't deserve it. and he wasn't brow beaten, he couldn't take any more of the mirror she was holding up so her took her hand to shut her up. if he was brow beaten he would have let her talk. nuzak fucked around with this message at 19:55 on May 13, 2014 |
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May 13, 2014 19:51
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ChesterJT posted:Yeah if only he would have let her get a word in... He literally did take her hand to stop her saying painful stuff tho. he didn't resignedly take her hand, he just grabbed it when it was too much for him.
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May 13, 2014 19:57
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nuzak posted:He literally did take her hand to stop her saying painful stuff tho. he didn't resignedly take her hand, he just grabbed it when it was too much for him. So like I said he was brow beaten into taking it. Let's not pretend that after 5 minutes of her whining he suddenly had a change of heart and found her attractive.
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May 13, 2014 20:01
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She was upset because Louie was trying to be dishonest about her weight. She wouldn't have had a monologue if he responded with "I bet it is (difficult to date when you're fat and in NYC)." That he responded by holding her hand says everything she said was correct. If it wasn't, he would have responded with something like "I'm just not attracted to you." Or run away in cowering silence.
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May 13, 2014 21:59
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Louie was so happy that holding her hand was the right thing to do.
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May 13, 2014 22:12
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What I loved most about the fat monologue were fit people jogging and cycling by. I get the message and sympathize, like one goon said it was pretty specifically about sexism and patriarchal social standards concerning fat women rather than about fat-shaming people per se. Still, the whole episode helped reinforce the stereotypes it also aimed to lay bare; fat guys being pigs are funny (I laughed my rear end off at the brotherly Bang Bang) while the fat gal in her stead seemed vulnerable, borderline desperate in her dependence on male confirmation.
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May 13, 2014 22:55
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The important part of the fat speech, and the reason why he couldn't just say,"Well just lose some weight then!" was that we'd already seen Louie himself demonstrating his inability to do the same thing - he goes and has his BANG BANG meals as a celebration before finally going to the gym and getting in shape, and then when he's asked,"See you at the gym tomorrow?" replies,"Nah I can't I've got some stuff to do." Louie's a fat guy but life is easier for him than it is for her, he doesn't face anywhere near the same level of stress or judgement or even well-intentioned but offensive kindnesses - like she tells him, as a fat girl she isn't even allowed to say she is fat or people consider her suicidal or in need of psychiatric help even though people are judging her every day of her life. His,"You're not fat" reply to her was incredibly offensive because he'd already demonstrated that he'll make a pass at absolutely anybody (his pathetic attempt to chat up Sunshine for example, or the scene where he's outside and just leering at every attractive woman who passes by) but turned her down on multiple occasions when she asked him out, even after establishing that she was a charismatic, funny person who he enjoyed being around. Him saying,"But you're not fat!" if taken at face value then indicates that there is something else about her that made him reject her advances, and they both know that isn't true. She's basically his dream woman only she isn't in the thin and fit aesthetic package that he wants, and she has every right to be pissed off at him about it. You could have done the same story with a girl in a wheelchair and it wouldn't have had the same impact for me, because Louie needed to have a double-standard about this. Louie isn't in a wheelchair, but Louie is fat, and his rejection of a great girl because she doesn't fit an aesthetic ideal that he himself completely fails to reach is what makes the story work. Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 23:11 on May 13, 2014 |
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May 13, 2014 23:09
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nuzak posted:Vicky was perfectly confident in her appearance, she was flirting with louis and all sorts, but that doesn't mean she doesn't feel or notice when people say mean things Not a single person was mean to her in the entire episode though. Louie was perfectly nice to her, and liked her as a person. Dave Attell was having a really friendly conversation with her, and genuinely happy for her for landing a good job. Everyone liked her, its just that no one finds her attractive for gee I wonder what reason. And she spends the rest of the episode complaining about that. Yeah she touched on a lot of other things, but the way it was set up, everything was fine in her life -- friends, job opportunities, the works -- except guys are not into her. That's what was so odd about her speech there: she seemed to complain that guys don't find fat girls attractive, and that people won't call her fat to her face. I'm not sure that really lines up with the feelings of the average fat woman in America today. Jerusalem posted:Louie's a fat guy but life is easier for him than it is for her, he doesn't face anywhere near the same level of stress or judgement or even well-intentioned but offensive kindnesses He went out of his way to show that there is just as much disgust for him as a fat guy as her. The guy at the Indian restaurant looking at them eat in horror, and the waitress instantly becoming disgusted when she hears about the bang bang. The difference was people didn't hide it from him, and with her, they say "oh you're not fat". And somehow, that's the bigger offense. Jake Armitage fucked around with this message at 23:39 on May 13, 2014 |
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May 13, 2014 23:32
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Jake Armitage posted:He went out of his way to show that there is just as much disgust for him as a fat guy as her. The guy at the Indian restaurant looking at them eat in horror, and the waitress instantly becoming disgusting when she hears about the bang bang. The difference was people didn't hide it from him, and with her, they say "oh you're not fat". The difference is also that she was attracted to him despite his appearance and made that plain to him, while he didn't (want to) find her attractive despite being basically his perfect woman - independent, courageous, funny, outspoken, intelligent, quick-witted etc. It's what makes his,"You're not fat" line to her so offensive, it's condescending and suggests that there must be something else wrong with her because otherwise why wouldn't he be all over her and eagerly accepting her offer of a date.
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May 13, 2014 23:44
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Louie and his brother ignoring the hostess at the Indian restaurant trying to seat them at a table for 2 and going instead for a table for 6 was a funny touch.
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May 13, 2014 23:55
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Jerusalem posted:The important part of the fat speech, and the reason why he couldn't just say,"Well just lose some weight then!" was that we'd already seen Louie himself demonstrating his inability to do the same thing - he goes and has his BANG BANG meals as a celebration before finally going to the gym and getting in shape, and then when he's asked,"See you at the gym tomorrow?" replies,"Nah I can't I've got some stuff to do." A good post
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May 14, 2014 00:05
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regulargonzalez posted:A good post Yeah, Best Post in a Louie Thread, 2014. That line about her being his dream woman except that she's overweight made me think about someone I turned down for the same reason when I was young and stupid. We've probably all done that, which is why Louie is a great show.
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May 14, 2014 00:19
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Louie was the perfect guy for Pamela because he's good with kids, successful, stable, etc. She still rejected him because he didn't meet her particular criteria for a partner, even though the father of her child apparently did. If I remember correctly wasn't he in jail or something? Or at the very least he abandoned her and her kid, and still she headed off to France to "give it another shot" and just flat out rejected Louie's very aggressive advances. What I'm wondering is, did you guys feel the same way about her rejection of him, as you do about his rejection of Vicky? Because if one is a double standard, so is the other.
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May 14, 2014 00:25
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regulargonzalez posted:A good post It's way off the mark. It doesn't matter what Louie looks like, does for a living, or anything else. He doesn't find her attractive and that's all there is to it. Even your average basement dwelling goon can look at an all around great girl who is fat and say not interested. You can't say "well you're fat too, you can't say that!". Of course you can. The idea that it's a "double standard" is retarded. Louie could absolutely say "lose some weight" because she's the one bitching about it like it's her plight in life. It makes no sense to say he can't. ChesterJT fucked around with this message at 00:39 on May 14, 2014 |
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May 14, 2014 00:32
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I don't recall Pamela at any point telling Louie,"Oh you're not fat!" when he clearly is. Pamela never found Louie attractive, but Louie CLEARLY was attracted to Vanessa, he just didn't want to be because she didn't fit the physical criteria that society has told him he should be looking for. Plus, as Vanessa noted, it's a lot harder to be a fat girl in modern society than it is to be a fat guy. Louie at least has the benefit of being a gender that has traditionally gotten all the breaks and all the advantages in society. I'm sure plenty of people judge him and dismiss him based on his physical appearance (as evidenced by the disgusted look of the manager in the Indian Restaurant, or Sunshine's reaction to his clumsy come-on) but he doesn't face anywhere near the same level of pressure and stress from having a less than "ideal" look like Vanessa does. She notes to Louie that she flirts all the time, and handsome/muscular men flirt right back because they are self-confident enough to know they won't be judged, but guys like Louie are so wrapped up in what other people will think of them that they freak out about it. She's acknowledging that Louie and other overweight men suffer their own self-esteem issues, but pointing out that this just adds even more stress and pressure on fat girls like her. She definitely gets the worst end of the stick.
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May 14, 2014 00:38
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Jerusalem posted:I don't recall Pamela at any point telling Louie,"Oh you're not fat!" when he clearly is. I never said she did. What she did do is say "you're a great guy Louie!" about a thousand times while reiterating that she wasn't attracted to him for arbitrary and personal reasons that she had every right to respect. That's something some of you aren't allowing Louie, which I find kind of bizarre and borderline offensive. Attraction isn't some logical thing. We don't get to sit and reason it out. "Well she's fat but she's awesome so if I don't find her physically attractive maybe something's wrong with me." That's total bullshit, and the only double standard here is that you think its ok for a woman but not a man to do the exact same thing. Jerusalem posted:Pamela never found Louie attractive, but Louie CLEARLY was attracted to Vanessa, he just didn't want to be because she didn't fit the physical criteria that society has told him he should be looking for. And here I think everyone is putting there own perspective on it. Who said he was CLEARLY attracted to her? I didn't get that at all. He thought she was super cool. He also thought she was unattractive. Have you honestly never known someone who fit that description in your life? Because I don't even think I can count the number of really cool, really unattractive women I've met over the years. It happens, its the way it goes. I just don't see the need to agonize over it like its some cosmic injustice. Especially when, as has been noted, she has a fix to the whole situation available to her should she choose to take it. That's a luxury Louie doesn't have with Pamela. No matter what he does, there's no way he can ever make her change her mind about him.
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May 14, 2014 00:48
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blue squares posted:What does it say about me that during the whole fat girl monologue, all I could think was, "well, drat, if it makes your life so depressing and unfun, stop being fat, it takes like 6 months jesus christ" It's better to fight against prejudice and poor treatment than to try and make everybody conform to whatever we think is "normal" this second. Gmaz posted:AFAIK Pamela Adlon will have a whole multi-episode arc this season.
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May 14, 2014 00:52
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Jake Armitage posted:And here I think everyone is putting there own perspective on it. Who said he was CLEARLY attracted to her? I didn't get that at all. He thought she was super cool. He also thought she was unattractive. Have you honestly never known someone who fit that description in your life? Because I don't even think I can count the number of really cool, really unattractive women I've met over the years. It happens, its the way it goes. I just don't see the need to agonize over it like its some cosmic injustice. Especially when, as has been noted, she has a fix to the whole situation available to her should she choose to take it. That's a luxury Louie doesn't have with Pamela. No matter what he does, there's no way he can ever make her change her mind about him. Exactly. He obviously thought she was funny but in no way did I get that he was physically attracted to her and was "afraid" to ask her out because of what other people would think. He just didn't find her physically attractive. LividLiquid posted:If there was a treatment to become white, should black people utilize it because being white is way easier and you're treated like poo poo less often? Can we avoid relating the centuries of racial oppression to fat girls not getting dates? ChesterJT fucked around with this message at 01:20 on May 14, 2014 |
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May 14, 2014 01:08
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Whether you agree or not with whatever you think that scene's "argument" was, it was obviously goddamn thought-provoking. Bravo Louie.
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May 14, 2014 01:27
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Breadallelogram posted:Whether you agree or not with whatever you think that scene's "argument" was, it was obviously goddamn thought-provoking. Bravo Louie. Agreed, obviously there is a lot of disagreement over how to interpret it, but the fact that it generated so much (generally intelligent, non-confrontational) discussion is a very good thing and one of the things that Louie's show does so well while still being hilarious.
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May 14, 2014 01:30
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Not An Irish Monk posted:the fact that you can change it wasn't the point, the point was the social struggles an overweight woman faces in comparison to a comparably overweight man. the problem for her wasn't that she was fat; I mean that's the reason why she seemed disappointed when louie just wouldn't say that. it was how people tend to shy away from using the term "fat" outright even though that's obviously what many are thinking; at least that's the sense I got. it could have been cut a little shorter though yeah. Sweet gently caress, thank you. Love that the previous posters were complaining that the point they didn't get was belabored. Oh, goons.
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May 14, 2014 01:42
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ChesterJT posted:Can we avoid relating the centuries of racial oppression to fat girls not getting dates? It's important to point out, I believe, because most people understand treating people of color like poo poo is reprehensible. It's understandable and instantly recognized. On the other hand, many people typically don't think about their mistreatment of other groups at all. Again, the comparrison is to the existence of prejudice and its recognition; not those targeted. So, no. I don't think there are fat person lynch mobs or that they're going to be enslaved. But I do believe that the same human pattern recognition that's kept us alive thus far also brings with it a desire to form people into groups, and treat them differently, and pointing out that this is wrong when I see it is really all I have the power to do about it.
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May 14, 2014 01:59
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LividLiquid posted:I get this a lot when I make the comparrison. What you, and several others are misinterpreting is that I'm comparing assholes to assholes, not black girls to fat girls. Actually you are comparing the struggle of black people to the struggle of fat people whether you realize it or not. If you "get this a lot" maybe you should stop doing it because it's upsetting to sane people. I'd suggest you find another analogy that isn't this far off the mark.
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May 14, 2014 02:27
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Jake Armitage posted:Actually you are comparing the struggle of black people to the struggle of fat people whether you realize it or not. If you "get this a lot" maybe you should stop doing it because it's upsetting to sane people. I'd suggest you find another analogy that isn't this far off the mark.
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May 14, 2014 02:49
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LividLiquid posted:If you've got a better way to wake people up to their lovely behavior, I'm all ears, and I'd appreciate it, but comparing it to something they already understand is wrong has been the single most effective method for me. If you think comparing the poo poo minorities have to face to the poo poo that fat people have to face then I don't think you understand either issue. Educate yourself before attempting to educate others.
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May 14, 2014 02:55
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