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beanieson
Sep 25, 2008

I had the opportunity to change literally anything about the world and I used it to get a new av
While I get that the point of the fat stigma speech was that it is harder on women than men I did enjoy that they whole time she's giving her monologue there's literally dozens of joggers and cyclists going by, you know, exercising.

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LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002

nutranurse posted:

If you think comparing the poo poo minorities have to face to the poo poo that fat people have to face then I don't think you understand either issue. Educate yourself before attempting to educate others.
If you think marginalizing people because of how they look isn't comparable to marginalizing people because of how they look, then I'd argue it's you who needs to educate yourself.

MLKQUOTEMACHINE
Oct 22, 2012

Some motherfuckers are always trying to ice-skate uphill

LividLiquid posted:

If you think marginalizing people because of how they look isn't comparable to marginalizing people because of how they look, then I'd argue it's you who needs to educate yourself.

Reducing the history and ramifications of racism down to "white people marginalized minorities because they looked different" in order to say "fat people also have it bad" is blatantly disregarding the:

1) Different physical realities behind racism and hating fat people: for the former your skin color/ethnicity is something you are born with, can never discard, and will always be held against you, for the latter this is not the case at all.

2) Level of severity of both issues: for the former we can look at how racism has shaped/controlled political and social developments for much of the past few centuries, and today continues to grind billions of people into the ground, for the latter, while it sucks that people make fun of and make things harder for fat people, fat people have never been enslaved, never have had pogroms launched against them, never have been violently 'cleansed' from any landscape whatsoever, and while they face hardship due to their weight weight is, in most cases, not something you are born with and something you can actually work on

3) I dunno, but race really is not at all on the same level nor in the same league nor at all in the same scope as weight/being obese

Maybe you're white and just don't understand that race =/= weight and the struggles for both are not at all comparable. If that's the case then this conversation makes tons of sense as one of us just has never had to confront/experience the awful reality of racism and therefore can make the rookie mistake of thinking that fat people face a similar kind of discrimination as minorities. It's actually pretty insulting, but I doubt you care much.

MLKQUOTEMACHINE fucked around with this message at 04:38 on May 14, 2014

LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002

nutranurse posted:

Reducing the history and ramifications of racism down to "white people marginalized minorities because they looked different" in order to say "fat people also have it bad" is blatantly disregarding the:

1) Different physical realities behind racism and hating fat people: for the former your skin color/ethnicity is something you are born with, can never discard, and will always be held against you, for the latter this is not the case at all.
Hence my original point: that if it could be changed, should it? In the name of being treated better, should people change their race?

nutranurse posted:

2) Level of severity of both issues:
An issue I readily admitted when I said that I didn't think the severity was anywhere comparable.

nutranurse" posted:

3) I dunno, but race really is not at all on the same level nor in the same league nor at all in the same scope as weight/being obese
Same as point two. Not only have I already admitted that this is true, but it's entirely irrelevant to this discussion, because I am not comparing the treatment of fat people to the treatment of black people. I am comparing the prejudices that lead to poor treatment. One is examined, and one isn't. I'm comparing the examined to the unexamined so that people will examine it.

nutranurse posted:

Maybe you're white
This shouldn't matter at all, but would it make you feel if I compared fat people to queers? Because I am one of those, and historically and currently, we do get murdered simply for being ourselves, and it doesn't change my point in any way whatsoever.

If there were a treatment to turn me straight, you wouldn't be telling me that I should take it so people wouldn't treat me like poo poo. Or maybe you would, but I kind of doubt it. Yet, many say that if being fat sucks, they should just lose weight so people didn't treat them like poo poo. What about religion? Since unlike sexual orientation and race, that's also a choice, like the fat thing. Should all Jewish people convert to Christianity? That's entirely possible, realistic, and not-at-all a stretch from the "just lose weight" argument.

The point is that people are treated like poo poo because of who they are, and arguing that they should change that to fit in is a damaging, stupid narrative.

This episode of Louie had the right idea. It surfaced assumptions, and pointed out a behavior that a minority group deals with on a regular basis. I loved it so, so much.

ChesterJT
Dec 28, 2003

Mounty Pumper's Flying Circus

LividLiquid posted:

The point is that people are treated like poo poo because of who they are, and arguing that they should change that to fit in is a damaging, stupid narrative.

No one is arguing that she should change, but that she can and that's why her whole speech is a waste of time. If she's so unhappy about it she can change. It's what makes it completely different than race, gender, handicap, sexual preference, etc. You are focusing way too much on SOCIETY bullshit and ignoring the simple fact that it's her life and hers alone. Some things you don't have the power to change, some you do. I wouldn't unload on some poor woman because I hated the town I was currently living in when I had the power to move somewhere else.

And to point it out yet again, no one was treating her badly. One guy who she liked didn't find her physically attractive. That was the extent of her tragedy.

crazy cloud
Nov 7, 2012

by Cyrano4747
Lipstick Apathy

Happy_Misanthrope posted:

Sweet gently caress, thank you.

Love that the previous posters were complaining that the point they didn't get was belabored.

Oh, goons.

MLKQUOTEMACHINE
Oct 22, 2012

Some motherfuckers are always trying to ice-skate uphill

LividLiquid posted:

Hence my original point: that if it could be changed, should it? In the name of being treated better, should people change their race?

If we could change our race easily then the issue or race would not be nearly as damning as it is today, how do you not get this poo poo? Weight is an issue that is entirely within people's ability to change. If you're fat and are treated poorly then do something about it: either stand up to your bullies and love yourself for yourself (and if you love yourself you should love your body enough to not treat it like poo poo and allow it to amass all that unhealthy weight) or lose the loving weight.

Alternatively you can whine about it the way Sarah Baker's character did, blithely unaware of the people exercising behind her. The monologue raised a lot of good points, but not about whether or not being fat is acceptable, but whether or not being a fat woman is acceptable. The takeaway (for me at least) is that there is more of a gender issue going on rather than a weight issue because, as Sarah Baker's character pointed out, Louie's basically the male equivalent to her in physical terms.

quote:

Same as point two. Not only have I already admitted that this is true, but it's entirely irrelevant to this discussion, because I am not comparing the treatment of fat people to the treatment of black people. I am comparing the prejudices that lead to poor treatment. One is examined, and one isn't. I'm comparing the examined to the unexamined so that people will examine it.

It's not irrelevant to this discussion, however, because you brought all that poo poo in the moment you started to talk about race. You cannot argue about nor understand race and racism in a neat, little vacuum. I recognize that you were attempting to talk about something in good faith, but race is an incredibly touchy subject and you should not be surprised to meet resistence when you attempt to use race to speak to other, very different issues.

The kind of prejudice that goes into racism is not the same kind of prejudice that goes into hating someone because they're fat.

quote:

This shouldn't matter at all,

It shouldn't yeah, because in an ideal world no one's race would cause them to have drastically different life experiences than someone else, but that's not the world we live in. Establishing your whiteness helps to explain how you can admit that racism's awful and that the socio-political trappings around racism are completely different than the trappings surrounding fat discrimination, but then go on to misrepresent/misunderstand what race and racism is a misguided attempt to find support for your argument.


e: Basically, don't talk about race unless you're actually talking about race. Otherwise you run the risk of coming off racist/out-of-touch because race is, as I said above, a messy issue. You're more likely to muck up whatever argument you had, as evidenced by the flurry of people who have denounced your argument irl and in this thread.

MLKQUOTEMACHINE fucked around with this message at 05:29 on May 14, 2014

LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002

ChesterJT posted:

No one is arguing that she should change, but that she can and that's why her whole speech is a waste of time. If she's so unhappy about it she can change. It's what makes it completely different than race, gender, handicap, sexual preference, etc. You are focusing way too much on SOCIETY bullshit and ignoring the simple fact that it's her life and hers alone. Some things you don't have the power to change, some you do. I wouldn't unload on some poor woman because I hated the town I was currently living in when I had the power to move somewhere else.

And to point it out yet again, no one was treating her badly. One guy who she liked didn't find her physically attractive. That was the extent of her tragedy.
You're saying that nobody is saying she should change, then arguing that because she's unhappy, she should. Your body isn't your hometown. I will never, at any point and under any circumstances barring causing others harm, agree that it's better to change yourself than to argue for acceptance and fair treatment.

She's unhappy being fat because people treat fat people like poo poo. She shouldn't change. They should. And three people treated her badly in this episode, but even if they didn't, we got everything we needed from her speech to know that she is, in fact, treated badly.

ChesterJT
Dec 28, 2003

Mounty Pumper's Flying Circus

LividLiquid posted:

I will never, at any point and under any circumstances barring causing others harm, agree that it's better to change yourself than to argue for acceptance and fair treatment.

You complained endlessly about how they should "tone down" Craig in Parks & Rec because he gave a negative stereotype to gays on tv even though he was just being himself. Why don't you accept him for who he is? Some gays are flamboyant and loud, just like his character and the actor in real life, but you don't like it. Why should they change him to fit what you think gays should look and act like?

I don't care that Louie tried to relay a message and be serious. I don't disagree that people should be more accepting of others, but having a fat woman go on and on like she's the most oppressed person on the planet wore out it's welcome. It was just done in the most mind-numbingly awful way. It's like that Bobcat Goldthwait movie about the guy who goes on a killing spree because he's pissed off at what America has become. Even if you agree with what he's saying by the end of the movie he's given so many long-winded speeches you just want him to die already.

Edit: VVV But I love you just the way you are!

ChesterJT fucked around with this message at 05:39 on May 14, 2014

Sub Rosa
Jun 9, 2010




Fat person of color here. I hate all of you.

LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002

ChesterJT posted:

You complained endlessly about how they should "tone down" Craig in Parks & Rec because he gave a negative stereotype to gays on tv even though he was just being himself. Why don't you accept him for who he is?
Because he's fictional.

To carry your comparrison further, I'd be making the same argument against this show if the fat girl was a mean, bumbling oaf in real life, and was then also portrayed as such on Louie. It doesn't matter that it's a reflection of who she is in real life. It's still damaging to fat people and encourages stereotyping.

Thankfully, Louie handled treatment of a target group far better than Parks and Rec handled a gay character. It even tackled the issue of stigmatizing itself, which I wasn't expecting. I would've been perfectly happy with just having a fat character be really cool and funny.

Tiptoes
Apr 30, 2006

You are my underwater, underwater friends!

ChesterJT posted:

No one is arguing that she should change, but that she can and that's why her whole speech is a waste of time. If she's so unhappy about it she can change.
She is trying to change though. She tried to change the way others interact with her and stigmatize her because of her appearance. I don't recall her expressing any dissatisfaction with herself. She seemed perfectly fine with who she was. She's putting the responsibility on other people who can't view her like any other decent human being because of their own stupid insecurities.

Tokelau All Star
Feb 23, 2008

THE TAXES! THE FINGER THING MEANS THE TAXES!

The important thing to realize with this show is that what we see on the screen isn't something that's "really happening" like we expect from TV. Louie (the show)'s world is one of magical realism, it's a bunch of things and events that Louis C.K. could be telling us in a stand-up bit, but acted out on screen. Vanessa stopping and monologuing on Louie and men in general isn't something that would happen in real life, but it's totally something you could see Louie giving us in a stand-up bit. We could see him going on a rant in the Comedy Cellar that regular shlubs don't want to be seen with fat girls because they are insecure about their place in the world. It's Louie's voice that is being heard during that speech, but the show gives him the chance to deliver that message through the kind of nice and well-meaning person that is hurt and affected by Louie and every other lovely insecure guy's behavior.

Yeah being fat is inherently unhealthy and is something within your power to change. But what the episode is telling us is that Vanessa deserves to be looked at by Louie as the awesome person she actually is despite whatever physical flaws she has. That sentiment might not be realistic, but neither is the show. It doesn't mean that she doesn't deserve it though.

LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002

In addition to having a great avatar and title text, this fella' says everything I'm trying to say without being incredibly divisive.

Edit: I can't help myself.

ChesterJT posted:

You complained endlessly about how they should "tone down" Craig in Parks & Rec
At no point did I ever use the words "tone down," so please don't use quotation marks like that. Craig is a gay stereotype and nothing more. That's the problem. He's loud, has a stereotypically gay accent, loves wine, demands perfection, and yells all the time. I think this is damaging, because it contributes to the notion that all gay people act like this, are the same, and are laughable. I've been very clear on this in the P&R thread and don't think this argument should be cross-threaded.

ChesterJT posted:

I don't care that Louie tried to relay a message and be serious. I don't disagree that people should be more accepting of others, but having a fat woman go on and on like she's the most oppressed person on the planet wore out it's welcome.
Nobody but you is suggesting that fat people are "the most oppressed." Simply being oppressed is enough. The severity of the act does not make it right or wrong. The act is wrong no matter the severity.

LividLiquid fucked around with this message at 06:52 on May 14, 2014

MLKQUOTEMACHINE
Oct 22, 2012

Some motherfuckers are always trying to ice-skate uphill
It's because he didn't make poorly thought out comparisons that distract from his point. :ssh:

MLKQUOTEMACHINE fucked around with this message at 06:46 on May 14, 2014

LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002

nutranurse posted:

It's because he didn't make poorly thought out comparisons that distract from his point. :ssh:
I asked you at one point to give me a better argument. If mine is truly damaging to my narrative, as you've suggested, and not truly as effective as it seems to me to be, I would genuinely welcome a better way to show people that marginalizing any group is just as bad as marginalizing any other group.

Do you believe this? Because I certainly hope you do, and am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but for all intents and purposes, it appears as if you believe that anybody who's different and is mocked for their difference, and hates being mocked, should change.

I disagree completely, and will use any narrative tool I can to show those who hold this belief how damaging their beliefs really are.

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all
Comparing being fat to being a minority is insane largely because being fat is actually unhealthy and generally caused by bad habits that you can actually pass on to the next generation whereas being a minority is only bad in so far as it is perceived as being bad. You can't actually give a rational response for disliking a race or ethnicity but there are loads of legitimate reasons to want to stress healthy living and eating habits.

Even if you could change white to black, it would be an irrelevant change done just to appease bigots, but changing fat to healthy is actually improving quality of life and life expectancy.

LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002

Atlas Hugged posted:

Comparing being fat to being a minority is insane largely because being fat is actually unhealthy and generally caused by bad habits that you can actually pass on to the next generation whereas being a minority is only bad in so far as it is perceived as being bad. You can't actually give a rational response for disliking a race or ethnicity but there are loads of legitimate reasons to want to stress healthy living and eating habits.

Even if you could change white to black, it would be an irrelevant change done just to appease bigots, but changing fat to healthy is actually improving quality of life and life expectancy.
So you should treat people poorly because of their choices, like picking the wrong religion, but not things they were born with.

Sound reasonable?

It's simple, dude: it's wrong to treat people poorly. You're on the wrong side of this argument. I want to have the energy to make that argument in a way that would actually help you realize how damaging your rhetoric is, but I just don't have it in me right now.

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all

LividLiquid posted:

So you should treat people poorly because of their choices, like picking the wrong religion, but not things they were born with.

Sound reasonable?

It's simple, dude: it's wrong to treat people poorly. You're on the wrong side of this argument. I want to have the energy to make that argument in a way that would actually help you realize how damaging your rhetoric is, but I just don't have it in me right now.

Well, I didn't say it was OK to treat people poorly. Nor did I say people should be treated poorly for things that are only perceived as better or worse, like race or religion. In fact, I explicitly said the opposite.

Fat people can actually improve themselves by becoming fit.

Minorities would only improve themselves in the eyes of assholes by changing their race.

LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002

Atlas Hugged posted:

Fat people can actually improve themselves by becoming fit.

Minorities would only improve themselves in the eyes of assholes by changing their race.
Being black is also unhealthy, medically. It opens one up to several conditions that aren't a problem for the rest of us. Still think this is a perfectly okay line of questioning?

"Black people can actually improve themselves by becoming white."

Sound okay?

Yes. I am making this comparrison again, and yes, I do believe it is perfectly appropriate and apt.
I h
Fat people's health has nothing to do with you or what you think, nor should you or I be talking about it. This is exactly why I make the race comparrison. You think it's okay to judge one, but not the other. I'm trying to make the point that it's not okay to judge either.

Edit: Also: You do realize not all minorities (or target groups, if we're speaking technically) are race-based, right? Again: I dig dong. That makes me a target. Should I stop being who I am because it's healthier? Medically, you'd be correct. Does that make it the correct thing for me to do?

LividLiquid fucked around with this message at 07:43 on May 14, 2014

Jake Armitage
Dec 11, 2004

+69 Pimp

LividLiquid posted:

I would genuinely welcome a better way to show people that marginalizing any group is just as bad as marginalizing any other group.

No one is going to give you that better way because no rational person believes this to be true. Read that bit of yours I quoted and tell me you honestly think it's a true statement.

"Marginalizing rapists is just as bad as marginalizing gays"
"Marginizing IV drug users is just as bad as marginalizing black people"
"Marginalizing nazis is just as bad as marginalizing the handicapped"

You keep making statements based on this bizarre assumption that fat struggle = black struggle. Back away from that absurdity for a moment and rethink... geez man rethink all of this.

LividLiquid posted:

Being black is also unhealthy, medically.

Holy poo poo :wtf:

LividLiquid posted:

Should I stop being who I am because it's healthier? Medically, you'd be correct. Does that make it the correct thing for me to do?

You're getting close. Now ask yourself this: do you have that option? Can you stop being who you are?

Jake Armitage fucked around with this message at 08:11 on May 14, 2014

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all
Except none of the health problems associated with being black have ever had anything to do with racial prejudice. Nor are the health problems actually problematic or associated with the appearance of being black. That being black has associated health problems (like anemia) has nothing to do with being black and has everything to do with inheritance. It's not causal. You could remove the health problems without changing the race.

And again, I never said it was OK to judge people. I'm specifically saying you are completely insane for making the comparison for the multitude of reasons already being leveled at you.

It is a personal choice to try and change your life to becoming healthy. But I don't have to listen to someone else's excuses when I myself am making choices to avoid gaining too much weight.

The thing that bothers me is that you are trying to force me into a eugenics argument when I'm specifically talking about the concrete consequences of learned behaviors. And there in lies the difference.

Yes, I'm well aware of the origins of race and ethnic divides and how utterly arbitrary they all are. This is again another reason why comparing arbitrary prejudice to prejudice against obesity is insane, even if both things are bad.

Treating fat people poorly is morally wrong because treating people poorly is morally wrong. You don't need to complicate the matter by trying to draw a comparison that has absolutely no basis.

Illinois Smith
Nov 15, 2003

Ninety-one? There are ninety other "Tiger Drivers"? Do any involve actual tigers, or driving?

LividLiquid posted:

Yes. I am making this comparrison again, and yes, I do believe it is perfectly appropriate and apt.
oh ok

EL BROMANCE
Jun 10, 2006

COWABUNGA DUDES!
🥷🐢😬



"Oh the Louie thread has 33 new posts in it since late last night, I wonder how the debate is going"

*Sees LividLiquid posting through it*

"Oh gently caress this poo poo then"

Thanks for making GBS threads up yet another thread with your trolling/broken mind, idiot.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

LividLiquid posted:

Yes. I am making this comparrison again, and yes, I do believe it is perfectly appropriate and apt.
Haha loving hell

Red
Apr 15, 2003

Yeah, great at getting us into Wawa.

beanieson posted:

While I get that the point of the fat stigma speech was that it is harder on women than men I did enjoy that they whole time she's giving her monologue there's literally dozens of joggers and cyclists going by, you know, exercising.

A running (pun not intended) theme in Louie is that characters have to be blunt as hell to get through to him.

- "Stop asking people out."
- "What's your name?"
- Jerry's whole run of frustration with Louie

That's why this works.

Red fucked around with this message at 12:07 on May 14, 2014

Darko
Dec 23, 2004

LividLiquid posted:

Being black is also unhealthy, medically. It opens one up to several conditions that aren't a problem for the rest of us. Still think this is a perfectly okay line of questioning?

"Black people can actually improve themselves by becoming white."

Sound okay?

Yes. I am making this comparrison again, and yes, I do believe it is perfectly appropriate and apt.
I h
Fat people's health has nothing to do with you or what you think, nor should you or I be talking about it. This is exactly why I make the race comparrison. You think it's okay to judge one, but not the other. I'm trying to make the point that it's not okay to judge either.

Edit: Also: You do realize not all minorities (or target groups, if we're speaking technically) are race-based, right? Again: I dig dong. That makes me a target. Should I stop being who I am because it's healthier? Medically, you'd be correct. Does that make it the correct thing for me to do?

Another comedian made the joke that "if you could pick from before birth, no one would choose to be a woman over a man, because men have all the advantages." The same would apply with choosing to be black over being white, for the same reason, it's a matter of privilege.

However, that statement works because it's actually an indictment of society creating privilege in the first place, as opposed to a diss on the race, as it's not something that cannot be accomplished in reality. When you try, you turn into Michael Jackson.

It's an incomparable statement to, "if something about you makes you unhappy, change it," which is the statement that is made about fat people in that context. With a statement like that, a lot depends on context, the people involved, their personalities, etc. and it's a very touchy subject in general that doesn't have a blanket answer as to if/how/when this kind of statement can be made.

There are circumstances where you can encourage a beloved overweight friend or family member to work out, and ways this encouragement can be given where it's not insulting, and that process in itself can improve mental health. There is no situation in reality where you can encourage a black person to bleach their skin or a short person to jam extensions in their legs. a) People can't realistically change those things, b) the process of becoming physically fit has side benefits in itself outside of pure social acceptance,which has no analogy in "racial change", and c) race is based -only- on arbitrary social acceptance about a thing that doesn't even exist (race isn't even a real thing outside of arbitrary social grouping), whereas weight is social acceptance tied into health issues. It's not an analogous statement.

It's just a bad comparison.

Darko fucked around with this message at 13:35 on May 14, 2014

Darko
Dec 23, 2004

The issue with the rant is that it kept subject-jumping, making it hard to button down to a single thing that can be agreed with or not. As such, it is very real life rant-like, but it also means that some points may be more poignant than others. There is no singular point of the whole speech; it makes around 4 different statements in it; some better than others.

massive spider
Dec 6, 2006

Palpatine MD posted:

What I loved most about the fat monologue were fit people jogging and cycling by.

I get the message and sympathize, like one goon said it was pretty specifically about sexism and patriarchal social standards concerning fat women rather than about fat-shaming people per se.

Still, the whole episode helped reinforce the stereotypes it also aimed to lay bare; fat guys being pigs are funny (I laughed my rear end off at the brotherly Bang Bang) while the fat gal in her stead seemed vulnerable, borderline desperate in her dependence on male confirmation.

The thing is she didn't want Louie to confirm she was pretty, she wanted to be able to say, like Louie does in his show, "yeah I'm a fat loving slob and it sucks" without it being seen as a cry for help. She wanted to NOT be seen as vulnerable.

She wasn't just a female Louie in that she was fat, she was similar in that they both use humour in similar ways. Except for her it doesent work the same way it does for a guy.


ChesterJT posted:

It's way off the mark. It doesn't matter what Louie looks like, does for a living, or anything else. He doesn't find her attractive and that's all there is to it. Even your average basement dwelling goon can look at an all around great girl who is fat and say not interested. You can't say "well you're fat too, you can't say that!". Of course you can. The idea that it's a "double standard" is retarded. Louie could absolutely say "lose some weight" because she's the one bitching about it like it's her plight in life. It makes no sense to say he can't.

It does matter because the story was ultimately about Louie, there was a very specific point being made about the relationship between her and him.

If you watched the episode and all you took from it is "guy and girl go out on a date, girl ruins it by bitching endlessly about how fat she is" you missed it.

massive spider fucked around with this message at 14:25 on May 14, 2014

Red
Apr 15, 2003

Yeah, great at getting us into Wawa.
If you want to talk Louie, post in this thread.

If you want to debate fat acceptance, go here: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3634154

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!
I think Louie certainly wasn't attracted to her. Look at the way he behaves with the cutie eastern european at the end of episode 4 - that's how he behaves with a woman he's attracted to. He lights up a little bit.

The experiential difference for him being around pie lady and Sarah Baker is the whole story. One just feels great, the other doesn't. And having to put up with fat rant makes him much less likely to go on friend dates with fat girls in the future.

I don't think any fat girls I've known want to be rejected by being told it's because they're fat. His whole opening monologue of ep 3 is about how women are better at subtle rejection, as if it's a good thing. Then he's the one getting harshly rejected and doing the subtle rejecting. Totally odd. Setting up this no-win situation for Louie doesn't make the viewer want to be around fat girls - it makes you want to stay away from them. Because the only way for Louie to win was not to play, because apparently multiple rejections and having to be bribed $1200 to hang out wasn't straightforward enough. Complaining about someone saying "you're not fat..." is like complaining that someone asking "How are you?" isn't actually interested in the depths of your psyche. Well, no poo poo, there are still manners.

Incidentally, it actually serves as a demonstration of why girls don't reject guys outright, because it's awkward. She's in the position of loser guys complaining "why won't she just be straightforward and say it's my looks????"


If Louie gets hit on by hot waitresses, and that does it for him, why would he date someone he's not attracted to?

No Wave fucked around with this message at 15:29 on May 14, 2014

Pedro De Heredia
May 30, 2006

LividLiquid posted:

So you should treat people poorly because of their choices, like picking the wrong religion, but not things they were born with.

Sound reasonable?

Presumably people's religion is important to them, to their families, to their communities, to their identity, they derive some benefit from it and it would be painful for them to change their religion.

None of this applies to being fat.

I don't even disagree with the overall message of the episode, you're just making horrendous arguments here. Louie didn't really 'treat her poorly' other than the 'you're not fat' comment, which isn't even an incredibly offensive comment in itself.

LividLiquid posted:

If there were a treatment to turn me straight, you wouldn't be telling me that I should take it so people wouldn't treat me like poo poo.

This is a really odd comment to make. A big point of gay acceptance and gay rights is precisely the idea that being gay cannot be changed and isn't a choice. Because it cannot be changed and is not a choice, we treat it the way we do. If it were another thing, we would treat it differently. Because it wouldn't be the same thing.

Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 15:35 on May 14, 2014

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!
More importantly, Louie didn't treat her poorly. What should he have done differently?


EDIT: Thinking back on it, there's a really interesting assumption that Sarah Baker makes. She basically makes the connection that because he'd probably be okay loving her in the back room, the only thing keeping him from dating her and being happy is self-consciousness and the desire to please society.

To ask a stupid question - are there girls who actually think this way? Does anyone actually believe this?

No Wave fucked around with this message at 15:43 on May 14, 2014

massive spider
Dec 6, 2006

As much as people say that they like what they like and thats it I think the actual fact is peoples desires tend to sit in a grey area between "what I'm attracted to" and "what is socially acceptable for me to show I'm attracted to".

Red posted:

If you want to talk Louie, post in this thread.

If you want to debate fat acceptance, go here: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3634154

If you've got a really cool and interesting Louie topic thats being drowned out lets hear it.

massive spider fucked around with this message at 15:52 on May 14, 2014

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!

massive spider posted:

As much as people say that they like what they like and thats it I think the actual fact is peoples desires tend to sit in a grey area between "what I'm attracted to" and "what is socially acceptable for me to show I'm attracted to".
Look at his alternatives, and look how much of a perma-hard-on he has with almost every other girl on the show (some of whom he dates). Why would he give that up? That's a great feeling.

(I'm assuming that Louie is single for his own reasons, not for lack of dating prospects - the show seems to have demonstrated that.)

Cheesus
Oct 17, 2002

Let us retract the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wirebrush of enlightenment.
Yam Slacker

No Wave posted:

EDIT: Thinking back on it, there's a really interesting assumption that Sarah Baker makes. She basically makes the connection that because he'd probably be okay loving her in the back room, the only thing keeping him from dating her and being happy is self-consciousness and the desire to please society.
It's not about pleasing society; it's the fear of how he will look to society if he dates a fat chick. As in, the (ridiculous) self-perception that the best he can ever do is date a fat woman.

There may be legitimate reasons one would have for not accepting a fat woman, but they almost certainly don't apply to the lonely, fat guy who won't help himself be healthier. It's a lovely, stupid hypocrisy which is why he so richly deserved the monologue, realized she was right, and finally accepted her.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!

Cheesus posted:

It's not about pleasing society; it's the fear of how he will look to society if he dates a fat chick. As in, the (ridiculous) self-perception that the best he can ever do is date a fat woman.

There may be legitimate reasons one would have for not accepting a fat woman, but they almost certainly don't apply to the lonely, fat guy who won't help himself be healthier. It's a lovely, stupid hypocrisy which is why he so richly deserved the monologue, realized she was right, and finally accepted her.
He had sex with a model in the previous episode. I get the show doesn't have continuity, but Louie doesn't strike me as a guy without options. How many women has he had sex with over three seasons? Nine, some of whom were hot? (First season: fat childhood friend, fat black woman, "you're old and smell", second season: blueberries, Joan Rivers, third season: first ep break-up, Melissa Leo, Maria Bamford, fourth season: Yvonne Strahovski). He consistently seems to be able to get dates...

It's not "hypocrisy" to like being around more attractive people. It's a feeling. Clearly he seems to be able to do it, judging by the waitress's obvious interest in him in that same episode. It's also not hypocrisy to prefer to be around funny people if I myself am not funny.

If Louie was someone who hadn't had sex in years and turned her down, yeah, we'd have a conversation. But for all the sadsack "I'm a loser" stuff, he's pretty clearly not, and one of his running jokes is how weird it is that these girls like comedians. God forbid he have options based on something other than looks.

No Wave fucked around with this message at 16:09 on May 14, 2014

beanieson
Sep 25, 2008

I had the opportunity to change literally anything about the world and I used it to get a new av
Was that loving Edward Burns sitting at the booth in the comedy club? You see him for all of a second when the chubby waitress is not recommending the sangria because of all the sex they'll have if they drink it.

massive spider
Dec 6, 2006

No Wave posted:

He had sex with a model in the previous episode. I get the show doesn't have continuity, but Louie doesn't strike me as a guy without options. How many women has he had sex with over three seasons? Nine, some of whom were hot? (First season: fat childhood friend, fat black woman, "you're old and smell", second season: blueberries, Joan Rivers, third season: first ep break-up, Melissa Leo, Maria Bamford, fourth season: model). He consistently seems to be able to get dates...

It's not "hypocrisy" to like being around more attractive people. It's a feeling. Clearly he seems to be able to do it, judging by the waitress's obvious interest in him in that same episode. It's also not hypocrisy to prefer to be around funny people if I myself am not funny.

If Louie was someone who hadn't had sex in years and turned her down, yeah, we'd have a conversation. But for all the sadsack "I'm a loser" stuff, he's pretty clearly not.

Sarah is totally right about him not wanting to date her because he's scared of the stigma though.

You know shes right because shes saying to him, on the show he writes and produces. She is Louies own self perception that he could gently caress a fat girl but not date her echoed back to him by another character.

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No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!

massive spider posted:

Sarah is totally right about him not wanting to date her because he's scared of the stigma though.

You know shes right because shes saying to him, on the show he writes and produces. She is Louies own self perception that he could gently caress a fat girl but not date her echoed back to him by another character.
It doesn't read at all in his body language. The negotiated handholding vs his pie euphoria speaks entirely differently.

You can be okay with loving someone and also not want to date them - and it could have nothing to do with stigma. It could have to do with the fact that he likes being around other girls way, way, way more - as we're shown. Just because Sarah said it in a long upworthy-esque take doesn't make it canonically true.

Personally, I think it's kind of mean to date/forge an emotional connection when you're way more interested in almost everyone else and know there's absolutely no long-term potential.

No Wave fucked around with this message at 16:20 on May 14, 2014

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