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That and while they may have been hunted to [near] extinction in that continent, there are probably poo poo tons of them in the across the oceans. There have always been stories and sightings from far off lands, but they get discounted. Also, they may have just migrated away during that big volcano explosion back in the day - the Time of Doom or whatever bullshit.
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May 20, 2014 06:58
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Kevyn posted:Game of throwns Goon is lord of awful puns. Thane of groans.
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May 20, 2014 07:11
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snucks posted:I really want there to be a good reason how and why dragons are such a rarity in this universe. Do they have a short lifespan or weird reproduction issues? They don't seem like something humans can effectively domesticate or cull, so even owning/using them seems like a major problem that's going to need to be addressed at some point in the show; when you're not using them to conquer they seem like a civilization-wide white elephant. They talk about how once they became domesticated and caged, the dragons just didn't grow as large as they used to. That combined with poor breeding lead to their gradual extinction. They say that the last dragon was a small and twisted that it could barely be called a dragon. They also have a close tie with magic in the world. They said that when the last dragon died, the last bit of magic went out in the world. Whether this is a "chicken or the egg?" situation, or something larger had a hand in it, magic, and dragons, came back into the world at roughly the same time: when the red comet appeared and when summer ended.
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May 20, 2014 07:21
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It's mostly talked about in DVD extras and stuff moreso than the actual show, but there used to be a ton of dragons in Valyria, where the Targaryens came from. In addition to the breeding issues the above poster talked about, Valyria kinda literally exploded in an event called the Doom of Valyria that wiped out almost all the dragons and Valyrians in one go (probably via supervolcano). After that, the only dragons left were those that Aegon took to Westeros.
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May 20, 2014 07:32
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I like knowing that poo poo. Thanks!
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May 20, 2014 07:43
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Shadow posted:I hear a lot of this criticism about GRRM on these forums. Most people who I've actually talked to who have read at least the first book seem to really like it. Is it pretty much, you either love his writing or you hate it? Or is it just one of those "goons being goons, don't mind them" kind of thing? And hey, been a goon a while myself. So I "get it." Rage only means we care harder. Nobody is patient enough to not hate GRRM if they started reading the books when they first came out. Anyone who says otherwise is pretending. A Game of Thrones came out in 1996. Think about it.
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May 20, 2014 08:55
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Shadow posted:I hear a lot of this criticism about GRRM on these forums. Most people who I've actually talked to who have read at least the first book seem to really like it. Is it pretty much, you either love his writing or you hate it? Or is it just one of those "goons being goons, don't mind them" kind of thing? And hey, been a goon a while myself. So I "get it." Rage only means we care harder. The problem is that it is predictable. "Here is a character that is awesome. He/she will suffer horribly." It's bad storytelling not because bad things happen to people we like, but because everything becomes telegraphed. Jaime becomes likable? Hand chopped off. Ned dies. Robb gets Red Wedding'd. It's something you have to use sparingly, and not do it to every loving character. I'm already fully expecting The Hound to die this season purely because he has become a very interesting character. We will have to disagree that GRRM is a genius because the first two books are two of the worst books I have ever read and the fact that the show has made them into a good story is a miracle.
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May 20, 2014 08:59
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Looked some stuff up on my own and found this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTL_oF3GYE4 So it looks like dragons came from volcanos and were wiped out by volcanos, and are literally magic. Magic feels like a cop-out for a series that has a lot of historical and scientific fact underlying its worldbuilding, but it's cool that the magic itself has some unexplained internal logic (magic's potency wanes and waxes like some weird cosmic force, it seems bound to the elements of fire and ice, etc)
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May 20, 2014 09:00
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Shadow posted:Posts like these are interesting to me. I am currently avoiding the books due to not wanting to be spoiled and just being a bit busy with ~other things~ and figure I'll start reading them at a later date. But if you book readers want to give us little tid bits about "where we are" with some filler details from the books, I personally would love it. Well not really. I thought the whole point of the TV threads were that the books do not exist. These threads are about the show, what information they give us in the show and nothing else. I don't care if the books say a character is 16 or 60 - if the character is 20 in the show they are 20. From the OP NO SPOILERS, NO BOOK TALK, AND FOR THE LOVE OF THE RED GOD NO TALK ABOUT THE EXISTENCE OF SPOILERS AND BOOKS Any questions about the books can be sent by PM to Toast Museum Revenant Threshold Ballz Carlton Banks Teller Max The Kawaiiest Hedrigall We know our stuff.
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May 20, 2014 09:12
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Higsian posted:Nobody is patient enough to not hate GRRM if they started reading the books when they first came out. Anyone who says otherwise is pretending. Yeah that's pretty much it. I first read it in 98 when I was like, 17. I mean, I completely understand that the guy is only human and writing books is a lot of work but this is a bit much I think. I don't think he's a bad writer though. He's no genius but I enjoy his writing.
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May 20, 2014 09:14
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Considering that Season 1 is basically a photocopy of the first book in the series and Season 2/Book 2 are still close, I'd be very interested to hear how someone thinks it could go from 'one of the worst books they've ever read' to a TV show they apparently really enjoy.
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May 20, 2014 09:17
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KamikazePotato posted:Considering that Season 1 is basically a photocopy of the first book in the series and Season 2/Book 2 are still close, I'd be very interested to hear how someone thinks it could go from 'one of the worst books they've ever read' to a TV show they apparently really enjoy. GRRM is a good storyteller. He is not a good prose writer.
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May 20, 2014 09:18
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Shadow posted:Posts like these are interesting to me. I am currently avoiding the books due to not wanting to be spoiled and just being a bit busy with ~other things~ and figure I'll start reading them at a later date. But if you book readers want to give us little tid bits about "where we are" with some filler details from the books, I personally would love it. NOOOOOOOOOOO! It's much better to read a gigantic amount of "speculation" in the thread, especially when the ones doing the "speculating" have made it clear they hate book readers. I can't help but feel a bit envious watching people much smarter than me guessing every plot twist without so much as looking at the book covers.
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May 20, 2014 09:26
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GRRM's prose is hardly amazing, but it's serviceable, and the vast majority of the early dialogue is ripped straight from the pages. It just seems like a very weird distinction to me.
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May 20, 2014 09:28
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Criminal Minded posted:GRRM is a good storyteller. He is not a good prose writer. I think this is pretty apt. There's a distinct style and tone to the writing that's just not going to translate as filmed content. The plot can be 100% identical, but it'll still feel different because we're not privy to the same internal monologue. I tried reading the first book and just couldn't engage with the written style. But I love the show. I don't think that's an indefensible position.
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May 20, 2014 09:49
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I don't get why they didn't recast Conan Stevens as The Mountain. This new guy is a poo poo actor and way too young to play The Hound's older brother. Edit: Just did some research- apparently he was about as much of a douchebag as he is big and was too difficult to work with so they just never renewed his contract. So there you go. futureproof fucked around with this message at 11:04 on May 20, 2014 |
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May 20, 2014 10:46
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the kawaiiest posted:I don't think he's a bad writer though. He's no genius but I enjoy his writing. Dude's written some pretty drat sweet stuff earlier in his career. He was a well-respected author within the SF and fantasy scene for a long time before he started on this monster series. Used to win awards and stuff back in the 1970s and 1980s. I guess his most important claim to fame was certain shorter works, in particular the stories Sandkings and The Way of Cross and Dragon. But then again, on the other hand, loving Wildcards.
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May 20, 2014 11:02
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snucks posted:Looked some stuff up on my own and found this: One thing it doesn't note: there were ~40 families that were dragonlords and vying for dominant influence over ruling Valyria. About 12 years prior to the Doom, the daughter of one of the more minor families, the Targaryens, had a dream premonition of the demise of Valyria by fire. He heeded his daughter's dream and left (to the furthest western reach of the empire, Dragonstone), being ridiculed by the other dragonlords as surrender for their pitiable status. The Targaryens were accompanied by some other Valyrian families that weren't dragonlords, but married with them and some successfully tamed dragons later (note: mastering might be a better phrase than taming since they, like some animals IRL, are never really tamed... they might decide to kill their master and wouldn't necessarily accept a new master if the old one died as something "tamed" would). To finish the "where are the dragons" question: after Aegon conquered Westeros (300 years prior to present [PoP]), there was also a civil war between two branches of the Targaryen lineage (Dance of the Dragons, ~170 years PoP) which killed off many of the dragons that were around (~20 between the two sides/neutral prior to the war). The remaining ones died off shortly thereafter; those bred in captivity (notably housed in the Dragonpit in King's Landing) tended to be smaller/live shorter lives. Balerion the Black Dread was noted to have lived to ~200 years old. Aegon III (ruled following the civil war to ~140 years PoP) failed to hatch the dragon eggs he had on hand and the last small/sickly dragon died ~150 years PoP. Also Aegon III is noted to hate dragons because he personally watched one cook his mother and eat her (she was alive prior to said cooking). Edit: removed rumors of who may have also played a part in dragons dying off since the show will get around to it if it turns out to be important/true. Mr Beens posted:Well not really. I thought the whole point of the TV threads were that the books do not exist. These threads are about the show, what information they give us in the show and nothing else. Don't see the harm in mentioning relevant background/filler info since the show glazes over a lot of the history, which is shared, because it'd be boring/implausible storytelling-wise to include lengthy reminiscences about a character's past (especially when it'd involve casting a dozen or more actors to fulfill necessary roles) or a story they were told/read. Then again the show wiki (listed in the OP) could fill in some of that if people were curious (although it tends to be less detailed than the books one, and not just in terms of excluding spoilers). bUm fucked around with this message at 11:45 on May 20, 2014 |
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May 20, 2014 11:18
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KamikazePotato posted:GRRM's prose is hardly amazing, but it's serviceable, and the vast majority of the early dialogue is ripped straight from the pages. It just seems like a very weird distinction to me.
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May 20, 2014 11:33
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precision posted:The problem is that it is predictable. "Here is a character that is awesome. He/she will suffer horribly." It's bad storytelling not because bad things happen to people we like, but because everything becomes telegraphed. Jaime becomes likable? Hand chopped off. Ned dies. Robb gets Red Wedding'd. It's something you have to use sparingly, and not do it to every loving character. I'm already fully expecting The Hound to die this season purely because he has become a very interesting character. Jaime becomes likeable because his hand gets chopped off. It makes him re-evaluate himself as a person, since previously his entire life revolved around his fighting prowess which he no longer has. The deaths in the books aren't just killing people you like, either. They serve a purpose in the plot. Characters don't die just to die.
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May 20, 2014 11:37
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Mortabis posted:Jaime becomes likeable because his hand gets chopped off. It makes him re-evaluate himself as a person, since previously his entire life revolved around his fighting prowess which he no longer has. The deaths in the books aren't just killing people you like, either. They serve a purpose in the plot. Characters don't die just to die. Yeah, GRRM is handing out plot armor sparingly, but the idea that the story is just about the writer being a sadist and making villains win by default is just something the fans have perpetuated. Because they are really bitter about their favorite character dying, or because they have lovely reading comprehension, or just as a joke. Joffrey dying right after the red wedding should have made the point that being a huge rear end in a top hat will also get you killed, because making enemies everywhere you go is just as stupid as being Ned levels of honorable.
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May 20, 2014 11:52
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Xealot posted:I think this is pretty apt. There's a distinct style and tone to the writing that's just not going to translate as filmed content. The plot can be 100% identical, but it'll still feel different because we're not privy to the same internal monologue. I'm at the end of the first book and I think the show is a lot better than the book so far. So cheer up, people who are jealous of the BOOK-READERS.
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May 20, 2014 11:54
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Aardark posted:it's probably done by talented people who know how to adapt the good parts and leave out the bad and poorly written. I wish they'd at least have the trust in their audience that he does. Even ignoring the Littlefinger scene, it's frustrating when a great conversation like with Tyrion and Oberyn ends with Oberyn saying, "I will begin with Ser Gregor Clegane, who killed my sister's children and then raped her with her blood still on his hands, before killing her, too." Yeah you just told Tyrion that story like 4 episodes ago, we got it.
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May 20, 2014 11:55
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Falsey posted:I wish they'd at least have the trust in their audience that he does. Even ignoring the Littlefinger scene, it's frustrating when a great conversation like with Tyrion and Oberyn ends with Oberyn saying, "I will begin with Ser Gregor Clegane, who killed my sister's children and then raped her with her blood still on his hands, before killing her, too." "Who is this Locke fellow and why is he going with Jon? He looks like a shady fellow." - this thread
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May 20, 2014 12:22
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rypakal posted:"Who is this Locke fellow and why is he going with Jon? He looks like a shady fellow." - this thread Even the goldfish in this thread still realized he was shady  And yeah I forgot who he was too.
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May 20, 2014 12:51
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This thread is the reason it wasn't "Only Cat".
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May 20, 2014 12:56
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Hedrigall posted:This thread is the reason it wasn't "Only Cat". I seriously can't believe the internet threw such a shitfit over a change so trivial
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May 20, 2014 13:09
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Well, In It For The Tank had that joke up in the spoiler thread title for the better part of a year, it was kind of sad to see it ruined. In the books it was a much more climactic moment, where Lysa spills the beans on all of Littlefinger's plans (they did that ahead of time in the show) in a drunken rage and then he calms her down, tells her he's only ever loved one woman--"Only cat" *shove* So you get the double whammy of Littlefinger killing Lysa and learning about all the poo poo he's been up to.
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May 20, 2014 13:09
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Can someone give me an example of why the prose in the book is bad? I feel like a dude who writes Tyrion/Bronn dialogue can't be a bad writer
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May 20, 2014 13:14
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Fight Club Sandwich posted:Can someone give me an example of why the prose in the book is bad? I feel like a dude who writes Tyrion/Bronn dialogue can't be a bad writer <----
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May 20, 2014 13:16
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BioMe posted:Even the goldfish in this thread still realized he was shady And that's why everything has to be said at least a half dozen times. They have to count on goldfish memories. And thematically it works because you need to be reminded that Oberyn isn't just a sex bot, he's really loving mad. And in their previous meeting Tyrion was a relatively happy fellow, and now he has just as much reason to hate his family as Oberyn does. Repetition of his goals has value here, particularly when you've just seen the Mountain hack up some cowering grown men. Because now you can hear those words and imagine him doing the same to an infant and a little girl.
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May 20, 2014 13:19
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Ballz posted:
That's very interesting!
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May 20, 2014 13:22
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TURN OFF AVATARS AND SIGNATURES WHEN YOU READ THIS THREAD... AND PROBABLY EVERY OTHER THREAD TOO 
version) - 
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Fight Club Sandwich posted:Can someone give me an example of why the prose in the book is bad? I feel like a dude who writes Tyrion/Bronn dialogue can't be a bad writer GURM posted:And suddenly his cock was out, jutting upward from his breeches like a fat pink mast. It looked so silly standing there that he might have laughed,
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May 20, 2014 13:25
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You'd be well advised to steer clear of Richard K. Morgan.
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May 20, 2014 13:29
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I think GRRM is a very good genre fiction writer, but if you come to the books from reading pulp paperbacks or John Grishom or even literary fiction it's gonna come off as stilted and weird. If you started reading ASoIAF as a twee little teenaged fantasy/scifi nerd then you'll probably think he's a pretty good author -- albeit with some evident faults. If you insist on comparing him to like, Nabokov or Faulkner or something, yeah, sorry, no, he isn't remotely that good. I like reading the books because I like getting some medieval soap operas into my head every now and then; I read other poo poo for other reasons. Objectively speaking, I do think the books are well-written, but they definitely suffer from trope-ish tone in places, and (in the latter books especially) the editing could've been a lot tighter. For people who say he's lovely, I wonder what their expectations were. For people who think he's the best ever, I wonder what else they've read. For goons, I assume the worst on both fronts simultaneously.
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May 20, 2014 13:35
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I knew it was coming (seriously, why else was he there), but "What about what I want" onwards was still a  moment for me.If this guy doesn't triumph over the Hulk Smash Clegane then we're gonna lose one of the show's most interesting characters. 
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May 20, 2014 13:48
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Carlton Banks Teller posted:For people who say he's lovely, I wonder what their expectations were. For people who think he's the best ever, I wonder what else they've read. For goons, I assume the worst on both fronts simultaneously. I don't think GRRM is all that terrible, but he does have a couple of bad habits that make getting through the books a chore. Character catchphrases is a big one, as are weird word choices (Starks don't walk, they "pad" everywhere because they're wolves--get it?) and so are 30 page chapters where nothing happens. I mean, there are quite a few Jaime chapters where its just him arguing with Lannister cousins over succession rights that will never, ever pay off. Plot should come first, world-building a distant second. Irish Joe fucked around with this message at 14:01 on May 20, 2014 |
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May 20, 2014 13:52
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Having read only the first book: GRRM's sentence structure tends to need a little work, he occasionally over-uses ellipses (i.e. uses them ever), and all of the characters are written as one-dimensional, as opposed to the nuanced performances we get out of the show (with the help of a very occasional new or slightly different scene). In the first book, the Lannisters are cartoonishly arrogant villains (although nothing is written from their POV and I am sure that will change). Many characters come off as being dumber than a bag of rocks. Ned looks like a total moron and is actually told that he is a moron by pretty much everyone on the small council. Rather than being forced into each of his decisions by circumstance or even by his idea of honor, he comes off as objectively dumb, always having an Option Smart and an Option Dumb and doing the latter. Catelyn is no better; in the show she comes off like the voice of reason, in the book she is impulsive and anxious. It's easy to criticize the writing from my armchair when writing novels is a lot of work. But I generally think the show elevates the material, combining strong writing and acting with the strong world and overall plot arcs. Name Change fucked around with this message at 14:07 on May 20, 2014 |
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May 20, 2014 14:03
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Whoa where's the poll?? e: misread title
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May 20, 2014 14:25
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Carlton Banks Teller posted:I think GRRM is a very good genre fiction writer, but if you come to the books from reading pulp paperbacks or John Grishom or even literary fiction it's gonna come off as stilted and weird. If you started reading ASoIAF as a twee little teenaged fantasy/scifi nerd then you'll probably think he's a pretty good author -- albeit with some evident faults. If you insist on comparing him to like, Nabokov or Faulkner or something, yeah, sorry, no, he isn't remotely that good. I like reading the books because I like getting some medieval soap operas into my head every now and then; I read other poo poo for other reasons. Objectively speaking, I do think the books are well-written, but they definitely suffer from trope-ish tone in places, and (in the latter books especially) the editing could've been a lot tighter. Yeah, he's usually not egregriously bad, but he does have a tendency to be rather longwinded and occasionally use a lot of words to convey very little of importance. It didn't bother me much the first time around, but since then I've read some writers who have a much more evocative and just plain more enjoyable prose, and it makes rereading ASoIaF a bit of a drag. He's still pretty good at worldbuilding and large-scale narratives.
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