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pram posted:it actually is
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May 27, 2014 05:19
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osx was and is, in a a very non-yosposish serious statement a terrible os in the one arena where linux is unquestionably a very good os; a rather specific but large subset of server tasks x11 remains a joke though, outdated when it was new and somehow stuck married to some very silly design philosophies all along
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May 27, 2014 08:23
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one time I thought about getting a collocates Mac as a web server. no, right?
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May 27, 2014 09:41
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:have fun using X11 apps on your osx desktop. it is not a pleasant experience agreed but that's not because of anything to do with OS X
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May 27, 2014 12:08
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:x11 remains a joke though, outdated when it was new and somehow stuck married to some very silly design philosophies all along yeah unfortunately this doesn't matter. x11 can be terrible but that doesn't mean you can ignore it or do a bad job and try to goad people into rewriting everything complaining about how old/stupid/inelegant x11 is accomplishes squat
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May 27, 2014 15:53
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PleasureKevin posted:one time I thought about getting a collocates Mac as a web server. no, right? my last few employers have resorted to these things for jenkins build slaves in datacenters. the joys of ios development   http://sonnettech.com/product/rackmacmini.html
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May 27, 2014 15:55
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I also maintain COBOL code
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May 27, 2014 15:56
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I don't know everything about lunix but I understand that X11 has some old, old design decisions that make certain modern display tasks inefficient or impossible, which is reason enough to move on to something better. besides if wayland has adequate backwards compatibility who the gently caress cares. nobody complains that win16 code doesn't run anymore, except morons
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May 27, 2014 15:59
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Silver Alicorn posted:I don't know everything about lunix but I understand that X11 has some old, old design decisions that make certain modern display tasks inefficient or impossible, which is reason enough to move on to something better. besides if wayland has adequate backwards compatibility who the gently caress cares. nobody complains that win16 code doesn't run anymore, except morons i give no poo poo about the implementation details. i'm not an Xorg or driver developer. for wayland to be "adequate," i shouldn't notice anything happened i'm gonna care a lot if legacy apps don't run properly, or worse, refuse to compile
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May 27, 2014 16:02
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Xwayland is literally just the current X11 server code, except display is redirected to a wayland window instead of the kernel. you don't need to compile against any different libraries or make any changes but let's keep making up poo poo to justify our curmudgeonliness, it's fun
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May 27, 2014 16:11
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:i give no poo poo about the implementation details. i'm not an Xorg or driver developer. for wayland to be "adequate," i shouldn't notice anything happened Why would they refuse to compile? Silver Alicorn posted:Xwayland is literally just the current X11 server code, except display is redirected to a wayland window instead of the kernel. you don't need to compile against any different libraries or make any changes Actually, independent X11 windows are reported to the Wayland compositor as separate Wayland surfaces. It's basically the same way that X11 compositors work right now.
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May 27, 2014 16:15
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Suspicious Dish posted:The only way to do a notification in X11 that I know of is _NET_WM_STATE_DEMANDS_ATTENTION, which is part of the EWMH, not the ICCCM, and simply means "make the taskbar button blink". Most DEs don't support that anymore because apps abused it way too much, but for the ones that do I see no reason why it wouldn't continue to work under Xwayland. what's the deal with this anyway. you get blinky taskbar buttons in windows and bouncing dock icons in osx, and it conveys information in a way I've grown accustomed to. when I try to use, for instance, steam on linux, I don't get any indication that I have unread messages like on windows/osx which makes it a lot harder to use and is sort of a dealbreaker for me using linux as a serious windows replacement (aside from numerous other dealbreakers)
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May 27, 2014 16:26
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I have the opposite experience on Windows. Skype is constantly blinking at me and I can never get the little "1" indicator to go away. Steam always has some form of weird progress bar overlay in the icon on W7, and I can't ever figure out how to get it to just go back to a normal icon. Really, a blinky taskbar doesn't convey much information other than "this app demands your attention now!" The replacement for it is desktop notifications, which we've supported forever, and are what's standard on OS X / mobile. If somebody sends you a Steam message, Steam should pop up a notification to say what that person wanted, and when you click on it you can reply. _NET_WM_STATE_DEMANDS_ATTENTION has been a frustration for users forever, because it doesn't give the user much information about how to deal with the situation, and if you want to figure out what's going on by switching to the app, that clears the attention state, meaning there's no way to "schedule" it for later. What other annoyances with Linux as a desktop do you have?
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May 27, 2014 16:32
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Silver Alicorn posted:Xwayland is literally just the current X11 server code, except display is redirected to a wayland window instead of the kernel. you don't need to compile against any different libraries or make any changes i never complained about xwayland. i'm just sayin' I want stuff to work.
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May 27, 2014 16:33
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And if I do my job correctly, things should work. Do you have faith in me, Notorious b.s.d.?
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May 27, 2014 16:34
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Suspicious Dish posted:Why would they refuse to compile? anti-X11 utopians who try to replace client libraries. haven't seen anything this stupid suggested yet but i fully expect it before this cycle of mania has run it's course
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May 27, 2014 16:34
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Suspicious Dish posted:And if I do my job correctly, things should work. Do you have faith in me, Notorious b.s.d.? no. you're a smart guy but you're hardly the first smart guy to conclude X should be supplanted by a compatible window server with a better API
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May 27, 2014 16:35
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The entire point of Xwayland is legacy compatibility. There is no reason to replace client libraries or anything in Xwayland. It speaks the exact same protocol as X11, because it's the exact same codebase as X11. You do not have to recompile your app for Xwayland compatibility. No, Wayland isn't the first attempt at an alternate display server. Unlike all the other attempts, though, it doesn't try to overstep its boundaries. DirectFB's approach is to reinvent all the drivers from scratch, and invent its own modesetting API, write its own drivers for serial mice, etc. Here, we are trying to simply replace the frustrating, state-of-the-80s parts of X11 and reuse as much infrastructure with Xorg as possible. In comparison, it's a very realistic goal. We're pulling as much good code out of Xorg as we can, and building it into a more generic infrastructure, like with KMS, the whole GLX rewrite, evdev, libinput, etc. In the end, we get a slimmer Xorg, and an ability to craft a new display server with a modern approach to graphics, input, and security.
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May 27, 2014 16:40
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NeWS, VNC, Xgl, Egl have all come and gone wayland at least has the advantage of monoculture. there aren't a hundred squabbling unix vendors to corral anymore
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May 27, 2014 16:43
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Suspicious Dish posted:I have the opposite experience on Windows. Skype is constantly blinking at me and I can never get the little "1" indicator to go away. Steam always has some form of weird progress bar overlay in the icon on W7, and I can't ever figure out how to get it to just go back to a normal icon. I probably don't get a high volume of messages compared to other users, usually when a window begs for attention I have the time to respond right away, so I like to keep up with it. also I still keep my taskbar in the win95/winXP style, so my steam messages window has a separate taskbar button and thus calls for attention separately from the main steam client. also the progress bar thing steam does means it's updating a game, and I like to keep up on that poo poo too other annoyances? Linux still lacks a decent music player I guess, unless there's something better than rhythmbox now. rhythmbox can't properly play albums gaplessly still. I used to use musicPD for that but I had to encode albums with ogg vorbis because mp3 frame size limits meant there were always small gaps at the end of a file. I use iTunes mainly because it works properly w/ my iPod and also has fairly good gap detection. whenever I try to manage my iPod w/ non-Apple software it loses all the gapless metadata for some reason lots of hobby audio apps like famitracker or modplug tracker don't have equivalents on linux, or the equivalents are laughably incomplete, and running them under wine introduces massive lag. this is app inertia I guess also I used to use gaim/pidgin all the time but I've come to like trillian a lot better. I think there's a linux version of that now though, haven't tried it yet. using pidgin or empathy always makes me feel short-changed because it doesn't work like trillian 3D performance is MASSIVELY reduced in linux, but this is probably because of lovely AMD drivers. nouveau works with my video card but only supports a small subset of card features and programs can crash if they load too many textures or something like that when I was younger I used linux religiously (gentoo lol) and I still use it on servers all the time, but for desktop stuff I've gotten used to windows/osx "just working". I use mingw for microcontroller dev on windows though because I don't like the big IDEs
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May 27, 2014 17:00
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i like banshee
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May 27, 2014 17:55
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:NeWS, VNC, Xgl, Egl have all come and gone NeWS was before my time, but based on my understanding of it, the giant issue was that Sun couldn't convince anybody that it was a platform worth developing on, given that X11 worked on all their systems, including HP/UX, IRIX, BSD and all the variants, while NeWS was a Sun exclusive. Business decisions killed it, not technical merit. VNC is still around, and it was always meant to be a remote display protocol, not an independent display server. You might be confusing it with Xvnc, which is simply a headless Xorg instance that speaks the VNC protocol. Xgl was basically a separate DDX, in the same way Xwayland is. It worked more like a modern-day compositor, rather than its own display server. The combination of AIGLX, and then the long-term goal and being superseded by DRM made it irrelevant. Xgl largely helped shape what modern compositors became. We replace parts of the stack all the time (as I mentioned, the whole DRI stack has evolved over time). Just like AIGLX, Xgl was a useful component at the time to work around real-world problems, but it wasn't a long-term solution. I have no idea what you think EGL is or why it has gone. It's still in active use on X11 and Wayland. In fact, EGL is all we support on Wayland, since we don't want to build a "GLW" equivalent to "GLX". It's what's used on Android, too.
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May 27, 2014 17:55
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Linux has more music players than Windows. Take your pick: MPD, Banshee, Rhythmbox, Amarok, gnome-music, Audacious, XMPP, Quod Libet, the list goes on... I used to use MPD, now I just use Banshee. Gapless playback works fine for me in both, and my music collection is all in MP3 format.
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May 27, 2014 17:57
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Suspicious Dish posted:NeWS was before my time, but based on my understanding of it, the giant issue was that Sun couldn't convince anybody that it was a platform worth developing on, given that X11 worked on all their systems, including HP/UX, IRIX, BSD and all the variants, while NeWS was a Sun exclusive. Business decisions killed it, not technical merit. Suspicious Dish posted:VNC is still around, and it was always meant to be a remote display protocol, not an independent display server. Suspicious Dish posted:I have no idea what you think EGL is or why it has gone. It's still in active use on X11 and Wayland. In fact, EGL is all we support on Wayland, since we don't want to build a "GLW" equivalent to "GLX". It's what's used on Android, too.
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May 27, 2014 18:24
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Silver Alicorn posted:3D performance is MASSIVELY reduced in linux, but this is probably because of lovely AMD drivers. nouveau works with my video card but only supports a small subset of card features and programs can crash if they load too many textures or something like that the proprietary amd/ati drivers are useless. don't even bother. the open source nvidia/ati/amd/intel drivers work but are very, very slow compared to windows. the proprietary nvidia driver is quite good
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May 27, 2014 18:25
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:ancient package managers >>>> no package manager brew is a better package manager than most linux ones since it has a policy of not making GBS threads up the system + it delegates to language managers rather than halfassedly attempting to replicate them mac app store for all of your consumer needs X11.app is there for any idiotic legacy software you wish to poo poo up osx with.
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May 27, 2014 19:16
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I thought for a while that the open-source Mesa stack would inevitably become the standard gpu driver stack on unixy systems sure it's kind of a toy now but so were linux and gcc at one point and now welp they're basically the industry standard for everything that isn't heavily entrenched due to binary compatibility concerns however the difference is that intel were always happy to send you big chunky technical reference manuals for x86 free of charge, but nvidia isn't quite so keen on that idea for their gpus. amd document most aspects of their gpus now but not all of them (c.f. video playback) and intel documents theirs but lmao who gives a gently caress about intel gpus. also gpus, video codes, and even things like hdmi connectors are a minefield of intellectual property slap fights thanks in large part to yospos golden boy apple inc who'd also sic the nazgul on anybody who dared to utter the registered trademark "firewire" back in the day thanks apple
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May 27, 2014 19:17
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:no. known as quartz, with a cool api known as Cocoa!!
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May 27, 2014 19:17
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x11 is pisstrash for idiots icccm is the worst.
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May 27, 2014 19:18
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i have a thinkpad with an NVidia Quadro K2000M and intel integrated graphics. under windows the laptop uses NVidia Optimus to switch between video cards based on demand (e.g. run games with nvidia and firefox with intel) does linux support that yet? i know about bumblebee but the last time i tried to install it i had to compile stuff and download stuff and didn't know wtf was going on basically it didn't work disabling either intel or nvidia is not an option: i need intel for low power consumption and nvidia for the vga port
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May 27, 2014 19:44
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Shinku ABOOKEN posted:i have a thinkpad with an NVidia Quadro K2000M and intel integrated graphics. under windows the laptop uses NVidia Optimus to switch between video cards based on demand (e.g. run games with nvidia and firefox with intel) support for dynamically switching graphics is different for each and every laptop. there are a half dozen different ways for mfgers to set it up. so, maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. lenovo helpfully marks some models as "certified for linux." see if you're on the list. you definitely shouldn't have to dick around with compiling anything on debian.
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May 27, 2014 20:07
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Malcolm XML posted:brew is a better package manager than most linux ones since it has a policy of not making GBS threads up the system + it delegates to language managers rather than halfassedly attempting to replicate them brew is laughable horseshit. compiling on the target system is the wrong way to do pretty much everything. gems, pypi, cpan suck dead weasels through a hose. gently caress that 80s bullshit, i might as well be trapped back in "./configure; make; make install" p.s. "not making GBS threads up the system" is the point of a package system. Notorious b.s.d. fucked around with this message at 20:12 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 20:10
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Mr Dog posted:I thought for a while that the open-source Mesa stack would inevitably become the standard gpu driver stack on unixy systems it is. the open source gpu driver stacks are all built w/ mesa for gl support. and they're all really, really slow. nvidia proprietary driver is how you get 3d performance on linux/solaris/freebsd
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May 27, 2014 20:10
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:brew is laughable horseshit. compiling on the target system is the wrong way to do pretty much everything. gems, pypi, cpan suck dead weasels through a hose. they don't though everything you are posting itt is "don't use normal software for human beings that actually works, because it sucks for obscure reasons. use this half-baked lunix horseshit instead"
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May 27, 2014 20:42
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what are you doing with x11
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May 27, 2014 20:44
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:brew is laughable horseshit. compiling on the target system is the wrong way to do pretty much everything. gems, pypi, cpan suck dead weasels through a hose. cool thats why brew now has binary packages that download /but also lets you build custom packages when u need to while maintaining hygiene/
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May 27, 2014 20:46
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It's almost like you guys have discovered that Notorious b.s.d. doesn't have any clue what he's talking about!
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May 27, 2014 20:48
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:brew is laughable horseshit. compiling on the target system is the wrong way to do pretty much everything. gems, pypi, cpan suck dead weasels through a hose. welp the only package manager that i know that has transactional builds and package installation is nix which no one uses everything else is various shades of making GBS threads up the system. brew is kind enough to let you blow away everything in its prefix and be ok its not the best but its better than most distros who try to package everything under the sun and fail horribly
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May 27, 2014 20:49
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Suspicious Dish posted:It's almost like you guys have discovered that Notorious b.s.d. doesn't have any clue what he's talking about! bsd is slightly more interesting to argue against than watching my builds percolate through the CI pipeline
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May 27, 2014 20:49
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Malcolm XML posted:everything else is various shades of making GBS threads up the system. brew is kind enough to let you blow away everything in its prefix and be ok so you consider it a virtue that brew can't manage system packages or patchsets? lol
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May 27, 2014 21:00
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