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Sensuki posted:It's more on the fact that a fair amount of the Priest's time might be spent on casting party buffs and doing standard attacks. Those offensive spells might not be very often such as 1/encounter or 1/rest and the Priest is squishy, doesn't have a great accuracy with weapons and not the best defenses, so sitting at the back and using a ranged weapon (such as a bow, crossbow or gun) seems to be 'the way' to play. Isn't that a matter of your build and what you want to focus on though? If you wanted to focus your cleric primarily on offensive support instead of damage, healing or party buffing and trust in your frontliners to keep your casters safe and from being interrupted. I could see placing perception near the top of the list along with intelligence and dexterity. Also don't the stats also unlock options in conversation and those CYOA encounters? So you also have to take into account that perception might be important for any detective type quests. Since all stats are going to be designed to do something useful, I'm planning to setup my stat spread according to their RP effects and adapt what I'm doing in combat to what I'll end up with.
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May 26, 2014 15:03
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Mordaedil posted:from what I've seen of Spoony's  )If you were talking about the moon Priests they are not a big deal (at all). He was just playing with some kind of weird wolfshirt moon fans or something. (You got to the part where all three priest fell asleep and died without making a single attack right?) The most generally abusable specialty priests were the hybrid Priests of Magic (of course).
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May 26, 2014 15:22
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Different from what was mentioned in earlier updates, the "battle priest" archetype seems to be absorbed into the Paladin class, leaving the priest class as a caster archetype. The stats of Pallegina gave me an impression that that she is built as a front-line supporter. Even if a Paladin has fewer active abilities (spells) compared with a priest, she has command abilities and her presence itself would benefit characters near her through her modal abilities. With the said high accuracy bonus for spells, Dex sounds less attractive for caster types, especially for support one, too. Personally, I have been thinking of building a priest a genuine caster archetype, which can contribute on offense just occasionally (Means, only when more firepower is needed to win some combat situations-a decent Might to complement healing capability would hopefully be enough for such build rather than investing much on something like Dex or Per). That is, if I didn't misunderstand the info.
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May 26, 2014 15:48
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Oo Koo posted:Isn't that a matter of your build and what you want to focus on though? If you wanted to focus your cleric primarily on offensive support instead of damage, healing or party buffing and trust in your frontliners to keep your casters safe and from being interrupted. I could see placing perception near the top of the list along with intelligence and dexterity.. I'm only talking about their combat efficacy. I generally power game and play on high difficulty. The attributes are balanced for combat. Their combat benefits have nothing to do with the RP benefits. That's a different area of balance altogether. A point put into Might gives you (based on the mock up which is likely now out of date) +2% damage and healing. You get something out of that every time you deal damage on a graze, hit or crit of any action that causes damage and any time you receive healing. A point into Perception gives you +2% chance to Interrupt. Interrupts are not guaranteed and are based on the weapon (or spell) inherent value. You only get something out of Perception when you cause an Interrupt. If you're not using a weapon with high interrupt, that may not be very often. What does an Interrupt give you? It slows down the enemy by ~0.5-1 second which cumulatively reduces the amount of damage and duration of effects suffered by the party, by a very, very, very fractional amount each time. This also depends on your choice of target. It's better to interrupt characters with slower, higher damage weapons than it is to interrupt a faster attacking character (and/or characters with low Resolve if you're playing with the stat popups enabled). These values will obviously be balanced a bit more, but point for point, you get more guaranteed benefits of pretty much all of the attributes than you do from Perception. For a class that's the least offensive-based out of all of the PE classes, it just seems like a waste to invest in Perception. If you can actually pretty consistently cause interrupts with fast low-default interrupt value weapons and a High Perception score, then that's not too bad. Sea Otter posted:With the said high accuracy bonus for spells, Dex sounds less attractive for caster types, especially for support one, too. Yes that's a good point. I can kinda see why spells have an accuracy bonus, because then if you made a character with a lovely dex, casting offensive spells probably sucks. Sensuki fucked around with this message at 16:07 on May 26, 2014 |
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May 26, 2014 16:05
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Presumably there'll be some incredibly inaccurate high-power spells to make up for that then? Making dex completely useless for casters, as all their spells are pretty much guaranteed to hit anyway, seems antithetical to ropekid's design philosophy. Edit: Wait, that's wrong. Presumably high dex characters will just get more spell crits. Spiky mages.
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May 26, 2014 16:12
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Isn't the accuracy bonus for spells just to balance the bad base accuracy of all spell caster classes? e.g. a fighter has a base accuracy of 20. a wizard has a base accuracy of 8, but all spells have an accuracy bonus of 12.
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May 26, 2014 16:14
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That also makes sense.
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May 26, 2014 16:17
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Sensuki posted:I'm only talking about their combat efficacy. I generally power game and play on high difficulty. The attributes are balanced for combat. Their combat benefits have nothing to do with the RP benefits. That's a different area of balance altogether. The stated design goal of the stat system is that every stat is meant to be equally useful for every single character class depending on what you want to focus on and that there should be no dump stats. So it follows that unless Obsidian fucks up their balancing (which is possible but we won't know until the game is out) perception should be useful for any class, you'll just have to adapt your playstyle to take advantage of the improved interrupt chance. E: Also, while interrupting basic attacks won't probably amount to much, interrupting some six second cast time mega nuke spell one second before it goes off can potentially win you the whole encounter since the caster just wasted five seconds doing nothing and you stopped whatever disaster they were about to unleash on you. Oo Koo fucked around with this message at 16:31 on May 26, 2014 |
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May 26, 2014 16:20
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Oo Koo posted:The stated design goal of the stat system is that every stat is meant to be equally useful for every single character class depending on what you want to focus on and that there should be no dump stats. So it follows that unless Obsidian fucks up their balancing (which is possible but we won't know until the game is out) perception should be useful for any class, you'll just have to adapt your playstyle to take advantage of the improved interrupt chance. Yeah, you could easily envision a high perception/high intellect priest just sitting in the back with a gun, targeting mages to interrupt their casting while passively buffing the rest of the party with auras. That's pretty much the character I'm planning to make, but I'll probably go chanter.
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May 26, 2014 16:27
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Oo Koo posted:The stated design goal of the stat system is that every stat is meant to be equally useful for every single character class depending on what you want to focus on and that there should be no dump stats. So it follows that unless Obsidian fucks up their balancing (which is possible but we won't know until the game is out) perception should be useful for any class, you'll just have to adapt your playstyle to take advantage of the improved interrupt chance. Sea Otter fucked around with this message at 16:43 on May 26, 2014 |
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May 26, 2014 16:40
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Oo Koo posted:The stated design goal of the stat system is that every stat is meant to be equally useful for every single character class depending on what you want to focus on and that there should be no dump stats. So it follows that unless Obsidian fucks up their balancing (which is possible but we won't know until the game is out) perception should be useful for any class, you'll just have to adapt your playstyle to take advantage of the improved interrupt chance. I know the design goals. What I am saying is that point for point (or % for %) Causing an Interrupt is simply not as good as the rest of the derived benefits from other attributes: You get something out of CON every time you take damage You get something out of MIG every time you cause damage or are healed You get something out of INT from passives (always active), and every time you cast anything that has an AoE size or a duration You get something out of DEX every time you make an attack where the defender's target defense is passed by the bonus accuracy from your DEX score on top of the roll and other benefits (which will be a lot, effectively increasing total damage and durations caused). You get something out of RES when the bonus concentration of your RES score resists an Interrupt that would have otherwise passed, which is based on a weapon/spell value. (Lose Effective DPS and Durations from a fail) You get something out of PER when the bonus interrupt from your PER score makes the difference to beat a Concentration check (Reducing Effective DPS and Durations from enemies on a pass) The benefits from all of these are not equally balanced point for point or % by %. MIG, DEX, CON, PER and RES had 2% per point increases, AoE and Durations had 5x, although that most likely means that default values from consumables won't be huge, and default AoE sizes from spells won't be huge either. Because Interrupts are based on a weapon inherent value, as well as having to actually cause damage, the derived benefit from Perception is a lot less than any of the other attributes. Which makes it a pretty crumby choice point for point compared to everything else. It would be interesting to know exactly how it is calculated. That's why I think Perception just plain sucks on Priests. You get something out of it, but it's not a great benefit compared to everything else. Hey I wonder if Intellect increases the duration of the DoT's inflicted by Sabres, that would be cool. Sensuki fucked around with this message at 17:16 on May 26, 2014 |
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May 26, 2014 16:59
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Sensuki posted:Because Interrupts are based on a weapon inherent value, as well as having to actually cause damage, the derived benefit from Perception is a lot less than any of the other attributes. Which makes it a pretty crumby choice point for point compared to everything else. It would be interesting to know exactly how it is calculated. But the absolute size of the benefit per proc depends on what you're interrupting. The variance in benefit intuitively seems like it should be higher for perception, with some procs being hugely beneficial, and some having very little relative effect, whereas most of the other stats have benefits that are more or less constant in effect, but with less range in benefit.
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May 26, 2014 17:56
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If you dump Dex/Per on any character, you will have a very low Reflex defense as that defense is primarily defined by Dex and Per. Also, no spells auto-hit. Everything requires an Accuracy vs. defense roll and Dex is always part of Accuracy.
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May 26, 2014 20:01
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Perception as an interrupt is a mitigation stat that you can bestow on other members of the party. For every point you are interrupting that much more, directly reducing overall DPS from attacks and maybe allowing some tactical positioning during a long cast big deal spell. Relegating it since its just a chance of effect is kind of losing sight of the incremental mitigation you get per point of perception.
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May 26, 2014 20:02
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Speaking of dumping/maxing stats, is the point buy system similar to 3E/4E's weighted advancement or is it more freeform ?
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May 26, 2014 20:19
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I believe Rope Kid confirmed point buy
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May 26, 2014 20:45
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and I was asking whether it is weighted or not (as in raising to 13 costs 2 points, 14 costs 3 etc etc
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May 26, 2014 20:49
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Sensuki posted:I know the design goals. What I am saying is that point for point (or % for %) Causing an Interrupt is simply not as good as the rest of the derived benefits from other attributes: Isn't that part of the whole balancing thing? Percentage per percentage interrupt chance might be worse than bonus damage or accuracy or whatever, but that doesn't matter when a single stat point buys you +6% interrupt versus +2% damage or whatever the final numbers end up being. They don't all have to scale at the same rate. I'm pretty sure that it's possible to crunch the numbers so that the average damage mitigation over time from the increased number of interrupts matches the amount you get from increased healing or health or whatever. We won't know whether Obsidian manages to successfully calculate those magic numbers until the game is out. But at least in theory it should be possible to reach a state where a stat point has roughly equal utility value regardless of where you put it. While we're on stats, I have a question of my own. How viable are generalists RP wise? Assuming the stat balancing works out, spreading your stat points equally across all stats shouldn't cause problems in combat since they'll all do something useful. But are there enough low level stat checks to allow a generalist to make up for the inability to pass the difficult checks with the breadth of their abilities? Are there combination solutions where you can reach a similar result to a single high level stat check by passing multiple low level ones for different stats?
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May 26, 2014 21:21
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If the spergs are already this busy then the design must be good. Someone roll an interrupt quick! Oo Koo posted:Are there combination solutions where you can reach a similar result to a single high level stat check by passing multiple low level ones for different stats?
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May 26, 2014 21:32
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FRINGE posted:If the spergs are already this busy then the design must be good. I meant something like, you need to get into a tower that's sealed by a huge stone door. You can either go fight some monster to get the key from it's lair (for those that don't have the required stats), force it open (difficult strength check) or notice an overgrown window above the door (medium perception check) and climb through it (medium dexterity check). The end result for every solution is that you get inside, the way just differs. I'd like for there to be some unique quest solutions relying on multiple easier checks for different stats, so that being a jack of all trades makes you feel that the breadth of your abilities is exceptional in it's own way.
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May 26, 2014 23:00
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Oo Koo posted:Isn't that part of the whole balancing thing? Percentage per percentage interrupt chance might be worse than bonus damage or accuracy or whatever, but that doesn't matter when a single stat point buys you +6% interrupt versus +2% damage or whatever the final numbers end up being. They don't all have to scale at the same rate. I'm pretty sure that it's possible to crunch the numbers so that the average damage mitigation over time from the increased number of interrupts matches the amount you get from increased healing or health or whatever. We won't know whether Obsidian manages to successfully calculate those magic numbers until the game is out. But at least in theory it should be possible to reach a state where a stat point has roughly equal utility value regardless of where you put it. No, stats will never be equal. Interrupt chance is an aggressive/utility option that may let you stun lock enemies. Reaching that point may let you make some encounters trivial in ways that extra damage, extra health or whatever else just can't match. On the other hand, any number of enemies may be immune to interrupt, making all those points worthless. We don't even need to know if there are a huge amount of interrupt-immune enemies or that it's incredibly broken to stun-lock enemies, or any other contexts that the game developers will add. It's gonna be a complex system and people will find ways to break it. Balance is a myth. But Obsidian will probably make it feel balanced to people who don't experiment (or read the gamefaqs page). That's one of the things that matters. Another, and more interesting thing, is giving us multiple ways to break the system. That and arbitrary restrictions are what make games really cool. You all are ready the FF5 Job Fiesta thread, right?
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May 26, 2014 23:32
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MartianAgitator posted:No, stats will never be equal. Interrupt chance is an aggressive/utility option that may let you stun lock enemies. Reaching that point may let you make some encounters trivial in ways that extra damage, extra health or whatever else just can't match. On the other hand, any number of enemies may be immune to interrupt, making all those points worthless. We don't even need to know if there are a huge amount of interrupt-immune enemies or that it's incredibly broken to stun-lock enemies, or any other contexts that the game developers will add. It's gonna be a complex system and people will find ways to break it. The state of balance is a myth, but certainly there is a sliding scale of internal game balance that one would strive to move as close to the "not broken as poo poo" end as possible...!
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May 26, 2014 23:56
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Yeah there's a difference between wanting balance as in preventing an optimized character from making all other party members redundant and wanting balance as in Literally Everything Is Equivalent. The former is fairly easy to achieve when classes have defined roles and hybridization is kept under firm control.
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May 27, 2014 00:01
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MartianAgitator posted:No, stats will never be equal. Interrupt chance is an aggressive/utility option that may let you stun lock enemies. Reaching that point may let you make some encounters trivial in ways that extra damage, extra health or whatever else just can't match. On the other hand, any number of enemies may be immune to interrupt, making all those points worthless. We don't even need to know if there are a huge amount of interrupt-immune enemies or that it's incredibly broken to stun-lock enemies, or any other contexts that the game developers will add. It's gonna be a complex system and people will find ways to break it. Well I said roughly equal utility value. Obviously you can't account for everything, but as you said they'll probably get close enough that there's no obviously best stat to raise. If the difference between optimal and sub-optimal stats ends up being small enough, personal preference for play style can easily make up the difference. If the player enjoys going "nope" at enemy spell casters and the difference between perception and whatever's the mathematically optimal stat is negligible, it's obviously optimal for their fun to invest in perception instead of whatever the best stat is.
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May 27, 2014 00:06
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Oo Koo posted:Well I said roughly equal utility value. Obviously you can't account for everything, but as you said they'll probably get close enough that there's no obviously best stat to raise. If the difference between optimal and sub-optimal stats ends up being small enough, personal preference for play style can easily make up the difference. If the player enjoys going "nope" at enemy spell casters and the difference between perception and whatever's the mathematically optimal stat is negligible, it's obviously optimal for their fun to invest in perception instead of whatever the best stat is. But you can't spreadsheet fun aaaaaah what do I do
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May 27, 2014 00:09
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It is more important for us that characters find any build useful/viable in different ways than it is for characters to be severely punished for dumping. E.g., if a high Perception build is a viable/cool build for priests who emphasize offensive spells, that is more important to us than whether or not a low Perception priest has a really harsh sting.
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May 27, 2014 05:42
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Oo Koo posted:I meant something like, you need to get into a tower that's sealed by a huge stone door. You can either go fight some monster to get the key from it's lair (for those that don't have the required stats), force it open (difficult strength check) or notice an overgrown window above the door (medium perception check) and climb through it (medium dexterity check). The end result for every solution is that you get inside, the way just differs. I'd like for there to be some unique quest solutions relying on multiple easier checks for different stats, so that being a jack of all trades makes you feel that the breadth of your abilities is exceptional in it's own way. I really like doing this too. Quest for Glory was like this for me, where I dumped all my starting points into learning how to do the things my class couldn't naturally, so that no matter what situation came up I could do at least a halfway decent job at it.
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May 27, 2014 07:36
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rope kid posted:It is more important for us that characters find any build useful/viable in different ways than it is for characters to be severely punished for dumping. E.g., if a high Perception build is a viable/cool build for priests who emphasize offensive spells, that is more important to us than whether or not a low Perception priest has a really harsh sting. That's all I wanted to know as long as it's viable. I'll take your word for it. Hopefully Priests have an equivalent of Magic Stone, Spiritual Hammer etc In other news, apparently Steam Early Access is a GOLD MINE. After hearing how WL2 is doing through the water mill, PE will only do better. Sensuki fucked around with this message at 08:52 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 07:42
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Sensuki posted:That's all I wanted to know as long as it's viable. I'll take your word for it. Hopefully Priests have an equivalent of Magic Stone, Spiritual Hammer etc What, it is? How much is WL2 making, then? Did they release any official numbers?
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May 27, 2014 16:06
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I would also be very interested in hearing any numbers. I personally have no interest in early access, but I could imagine it brings in crazy money. Wasteland 2 has had a spot on the steam front page, and there are millions of people on steam all the time. Compared with Wasteland 2's 61,000 odd initial backers...
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May 27, 2014 17:00
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GetWellGamers posted:I really like doing this too. Quest for Glory was like this for me, where I dumped all my starting points into learning how to do the things my class couldn't naturally, so that no matter what situation came up I could do at least a halfway decent job at it. Not really on topic, but I loved the Quest for Glory games as a kid, and they seem ideal for a modern reboot as a light hearted open world rpg with sense of humor and maybe some puzzle solving.
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May 27, 2014 17:20
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Fintilgin posted:Not really on topic, but I loved the Quest for Glory games as a kid, and they seem ideal for a modern reboot as a light hearted open world rpg with sense of humor and maybe some puzzle solving.
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May 27, 2014 17:33
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evilmiera posted:What, it is? How much is WL2 making, then? Did they release any official numbers? No, but the producers post on the Codex and are p. tight with some of the moderators. Double Fine released their sales figures from the Early Access (70,947 units sold and $1,674,082 gross by March 29th)and apparently those numbers are "pathetic" compared to the Wasteland 2 Early Access. Sensuki fucked around with this message at 17:40 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 17:34
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Quest for Glory games ruled hard and it's too bad the Coles' kickstarter looked awful.
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May 27, 2014 17:44
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Sensuki posted:No, but the producers post on the Codex and are p. tight with some of the moderators. Double Fine released their sales figures from the Early Access (70,947 units sold and $1,674,082 gross by March 29th)and apparently those numbers are "pathetic" compared to the Wasteland 2 Early Access. Comparing an RPG to a point-and-click adventure game (which wasn't Early Access by the way) is probably not an accurate summation of the profitability of Early Access, though obviously there have been huge successes (DayZ, Rust, Prison Architect, Kerbal Space Program, to name a few). If Larian talked about how much they have made off of Original Sin's Early Access game that would be better.
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May 27, 2014 17:45
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epitasis posted:Quest for Glory games ruled hard and it's too bad the Coles' kickstarter looked awful.
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May 27, 2014 17:46
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Kibayasu posted:Comparing an RPG to a point-and-click adventure game (which wasn't Early Access by the way) is probably not an accurate summation of the profitability of Early Access, though obviously there have been huge successes (DayZ, Rust, Prison Architect, Kerbal Space Program, to name a few). If Larian talked about how much they have made off of Original Sin's Early Access game that would be better. Sure, but (way) more than $1.5M in a few months is A LOT more from Early Access than I expected at least. These revelations have brought forward this notion.
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May 27, 2014 17:48
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I'm guessing since Eternity uses(What looks to be)Defence Threshold from New Vegas, we probably won't be running into Golems that are only vulnerable to +3 weapons.
Inspector Gesicht fucked around with this message at 18:19 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 18:17
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Sensuki posted:Hopefully Priests have an equivalent of Magic Stone, Spiritual Hammer etc
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May 27, 2014 19:37
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Inspector Gesicht posted:I'm guessing since Eternity uses(What looks to be)Defence Threshold from New Vegas, we probably won't be running into Golems that are only vulnerable to +3 weapons.
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May 27, 2014 19:39
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