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Sansa is awful, but I don't know how much you can really hold her accountable for. She's a young teenager. She's not even had her first period at the beginning of the story so right in the middle of puberty/hormonal insanity. Most of us were pretty awful at that time of life. She grew up in a hard land, but she was sheltered from most of it. She'd never seen a real winter, only heard stories. While her brothers were expected to have to make life and death decisions some day, and even the youngest had to watch father execute a man, the girls were not. Her only responsibility was to marry well (which would be arranged for her) and eventually raise noble children. Do needlework. Be pretty. Don't get fat. Don't gently caress the stable boys. Nobody taught her what to do if she is betrothed to a murderous lying sociopath. Most kids wouldn't know how to deal with that. We want to punch Joffery from day one, but initially he shows her a different face. She expects the man she marries to be very much like her own father, basically a good man, because she was never ever exposed to bad men. In light of what she knows and expects from life, her actions aren't that bad. She knew her sister and the butcher's boy could be punished, but she'd never imagined he'd be killed because Winterfell doesn't punish children with death for getting into fights. She'd never even imagined the wolves could be killed.
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May 30, 2014 03:14
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Angela Christine posted:She grew up in a hard land, but she was sheltered from most of it. She'd never seen a real winter, only heard stories. While her brothers were expected to have to make life and death decisions some day, and even the youngest had to watch father execute a man, the girls were not. Her only responsibility was to marry well (which would be arranged for her) and eventually raise noble children. Do needlework. Be pretty. Don't get fat. Don't gently caress the stable boys. Did Rickon watch that opening execution? I thought they took Bran and it was implied to be his first one. bUm posted:Apparently people didn't read what I quoted very closely. Keeping them alive for ransom or for titles is not creepy: it's logical, intelligent, and makes absolute sense in the Game of Thrones universe (you win or you die; if you're upset by characters making selfish/logical choices over "happy ending" ones, you've come to the wrong place). Also alive or dead is of little relevance whether or not they helped keep them alive (in a non-creepy manner) whilst they were able. I don't think anyone was suggesting that keeping them alive for ransom or titles doesn't make sense, but it does disqualify you from counting as someone that's looking out for that character. I originally listed Tyrion and the Hound because they are the ones who have gone out of their ways (and endangered themselves) to protect the Stark girls, and are still alive to perhaps do it again. The ones who are dead are no longer potential allies. If that answer is spoiled because it's from the books, you shouldn't give it at all. I was asking if we knew what is going in Riverrun in the show (I can't remember). If we do, the spoilers aren't necessary. Bobo the Red fucked around with this message at 03:28 on May 30, 2014 |
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May 30, 2014 03:24
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Bobo the Red posted:Did Rickon watch that opening execution? I thought they took Bran and it was implied to be his first one. Hmm, maybe not. It was a long time ago.
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May 30, 2014 03:27
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Rickon was not there.
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May 30, 2014 04:24
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Angela Christine posted:Sansa is awful, but I don't know how much you can really hold her accountable for. She's a young teenager. She's not even had her first period at the beginning of the story so right in the middle of puberty/hormonal insanity. Most of us were pretty awful at that time of life.
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May 30, 2014 08:23
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bUm posted:Guess I mistakenly thought there was a scene promising him to Joffrey's Kingsguard, but that was just for Margaery's betrothal. Tywin threatened to make Loras a Kingsguard if Olenna didn't agree to marry him to Cersei.
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May 30, 2014 08:29
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bob holness paradox posted:Tywin threatened to make Loras a Kingsguard if Olenna didn't agree to marry him to Cersei. And Loras would willingly become a Kingsguard for that little poo poo? Why?
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May 30, 2014 12:53
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Pleasant Friend posted:And Loras would willingly become a Kingsguard for that little poo poo? Why? Not willingly. Tywin was threatening his inheritance basically.
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May 30, 2014 13:05
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bUm posted:
Man, will you gently caress off?
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May 30, 2014 13:34
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That DICK! posted:Man, will you gently caress off? I know Game of Thrones is a big deal and all but please don't cuss him out so readily.
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May 30, 2014 15:41
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bob holness paradox posted:Tywin threatened to make Loras a Kingsguard if Olenna didn't agree to marry him to Cersei. If Tommen marries Margaery the houses are already combined, idk why they dont just let Cersei be a spinster.
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May 30, 2014 17:06
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No More Heroes posted:If Tommen marries Margaery the houses are already combined, idk why they dont just let Cersei be a spinster. Tommen still technically counts as being a Baratheon, since Robert was 'officially' his father. Perestroika fucked around with this message at 17:12 on May 30, 2014 |
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May 30, 2014 17:10
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Angela Christine posted:Sansa is awful, but I don't know how much you can really hold her accountable for. She's a young teenager. She's not even had her first period at the beginning of the story so right in the middle of puberty/hormonal insanity. Most of us were pretty awful at that time of life. Sansa is written really well in the book and is a good character. But just like the show, she is upstaged by the Lannisters and... Pretty much every other story arc.
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May 30, 2014 17:14
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No More Heroes posted:If Tommen marries Margaery the houses are already combined, idk why they dont just let Cersei be a spinster. If Loras is made Kingsguard then the Tyrell name would be dead, since he could not have any kids. Cersei is also useful as a way of making political alliences, since they have not said she is past child bearing years.
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May 30, 2014 17:15
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bobkatt013 posted:If Loras is made Kingsguard then the Tyrell name would be dead, since he could not have any kids. Cersei is also useful as a way of making political alliences, since they have not said she is past child bearing years. As someone pointed out much earlier in the thread, Tywin is not yet past the age where he can have children, and yet that never gets brought up as a possibility. Tywin seems like a cold and calculating badass cool guy, thanks to Charles Dance. But he's actually a huge, hypocritical dick.
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May 30, 2014 17:22
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:But he's actually a huge, hypocritical dick. Oh I know that. He is a master of loving with his kids minds to get them to do what he wants them to do, or make their lives hell in the case of his non-Jamie kids.
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May 30, 2014 17:35
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:As someone pointed out much earlier in the thread, Tywin is not yet past the age where he can have children, and yet that never gets brought up as a possibility. He could have children but it's doubtful he'd live to see them reach maturity so it would do him no good. No More Heroes posted:If Tommen marries Margaery the houses are already combined, idk why they dont just let Cersei be a spinster.
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May 30, 2014 17:42
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Yeah, the marriage to Cersei is to tie the Lannister and Tyrell names. Though, in a way, it kinda further continues to endanger the Lannister name, since Jaime is out, Tywin loving hates Tyrion, and Cersei's possible children with Loras could be heirs to Casterly Rock but not the Iron Throne. It's not really clear how the inheritance works if someone is heir to both one of the kingdoms AND the Iron Throne, since Robert was the first one to do it (and he just had his brothers ruling in his name), and his succession issues were taken care of by the wars. It seems reasonable that Tommen would defer it to his non-royal siblings. Who do Lannisters hold to be Lord Paramount of the Stormlands, anyway? OneThousandMonkeys posted:As someone pointed out much earlier in the thread, Tywin is not yet past the age where he can have children, and yet that never gets brought up as a possibility. Oh yeah. He's all about doing what's right, and marrying for power, but he obviously married some no name (as her name is never brought up) because he loved her, and refuses to marry again. Her death is certainly why he hates Tyrion too. The dwarf thing just added insult to injury.
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May 30, 2014 17:55
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Pleasant Friend posted:And Loras would willingly become a Kingsguard for that little poo poo? Why? The Kingsguard is very prestigious and a golden cloak is held as a mark of honour among swordsmen so Loras might well take it up if offered.
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May 30, 2014 18:00
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Bobo the Red posted:Yeah, the marriage to Cersei is to tie the Lannister and Tyrell names. Though, in a way, it kinda further continues to endanger the Lannister name, since Jaime is out, Tywin loving hates Tyrion, and Cersei's possible children with Loras could be heirs to Casterly Rock but not the Iron Throne. It's not really clear how the inheritance works if someone is heir to both one of the kingdoms AND the Iron Throne, since Robert was the first one to do it (and he just had his brothers ruling in his name), and his succession issues were taken care of by the wars. It seems reasonable that Tommen would defer it to his non-royal siblings. We have seen that Tywin is trying his hardest to get Jaime to leave the Kingsguard and return to Casterly Rock. He may hate Tyrion, he might not hate his kids with Sansa. It is possible that they would get it, if everything did not go to hell due to Emma Peel.
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May 30, 2014 18:08
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bobkatt013 posted:We have seen that Tywin is trying his hardest to get Jaime to leave the Kingsguard and return to Casterly Rock. He may hate Tyrion, he might not hate his kids with Sansa. It is possible that they would get it, if everything did not go to hell due to Emma Peel. He's literally trying to kill Tyrion (or exile him) right now, leaving no room for possible grandchildren. If Tyrion's children inherit Casterly Rock, it validates Tyrion by proxy, and Tywin is not likely to be into that. His entire gambit is getting Jaime out. That's probably the real motivator for marrying Cersei off. Way easier to get Jaime out of King's Landing if she has to keep up appearances again. But there's no guarantee that it will cause Jaime to leave the Kingsguard (leaving the Kingsguard is really looked down on; not cut your head off looked down on, but still; also he really loves Cersei for some ungodly reason). Making that deal with Jaime was Tywin's ideal outcome, but that option is gone, and the Lannister name is in serious jeopardy. Which especially amusing since they have gamed their way into being the most powerful family in all of Westeros, largely through Tywin's doing. He got so close to what he wanted but is also on his way to losing the only thing he still really cares about, the family name.
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May 30, 2014 18:51
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MeLKoR posted:He could have children but it's doubtful he'd live to see them reach maturity so it would do him no good. Well yeah it's a bit late now, but it has been 30ish years since his wife died. He could easily have a few spare heirs by now if he had remarried immediately like a good feudal lord.
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May 30, 2014 18:54
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No More Heroes posted:If Tommen marries Margaery the houses are already combined, idk why they dont just let Cersei be a spinster. To end those disgusting rumors once and for all. He literally says that.
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May 30, 2014 18:54
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rypakal posted:To end those disgusting rumors once and for all. He literally says that. Lololo so they betroth her to a gay guy 
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May 30, 2014 19:07
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Bobo the Red posted:He's literally trying to kill Tyrion (or exile him) right now, leaving no room for possible grandchildren. If Tyrion's children inherit Casterly Rock, it validates Tyrion by proxy, and Tywin is not likely to be into that. As I said due to Emma Peel, the idea of Sansa's kids inheriting it is impossible. He did seem to want Sansa to get pregnant after their marriage as he saw it at the time the only chance for his name to continue.
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May 30, 2014 19:08
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I wonder if Stannis & friends can go around Westeros unnoticed and get to Castle Black? Seems kinda weird, but it would add a great deal of weight to Stannis's claim if he was the only one who followed the call the Night's Watch made and helped save Westeros. Maybe he'll even snap out of his blood magic ways when she tries to knife his daughter, since he seems to have a (relatively) soft spot for her. And then he can go south and kill all those jerks in the North. Stannis Baratheon, King in the North? bobkatt013 posted:As I said due to Emma Peel, the idea of Sansa's kids inheriting it is impossible. He did seem to want Sansa to get pregnant after their marriage as he saw it at the time the only chance for his name to continue. It's hardly due to Emma Peel. Tywin knows Tyrion is innocent, and everyone with a lick of sense is aware that Sansa is incapable of such a thing, because she currently lacks the demeanor and the resources. He was willing to use Tyrion to have Lannister kids when he didn't have a way to get rid of him, but this chance was too good, and he hates Tyrion too much, to pass it up (plus he knew he could likely get Jaime back through it). If Tywin wasn't a hateful hypocrite, and he'd simply been nice to Tyrion, who is as adept at the game as he is, if not more, the Lannister name would be safe, and the war likely would've already been won. Tywin discarded his greatest asset, and it looks likely to loving ruin him. And it's loving great. Bobo the Red fucked around with this message at 19:34 on May 30, 2014 |
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May 30, 2014 19:22
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Bobo the Red posted:It's hardly due to Emma Peel. Tywin knows Tyrion is innocent, and everyone with a lick of sense is aware that Sansa is incapable of such a thing, because she currently lacks the demeanor and the resources. He was willing to use Tyrion to have Lannister kids when he didn't have a way to get rid of him, but this chance was too good, and he hates Tyrion too much, to pass it up. I think we are saying the same thing. I was pointing out that if Joffrey never died then it would be possible for Sansa's kids to inherit Casterly Rock. It also does not matter if everyone knows they could not do it, Cersei does and making sure they will be blamed. Its not just if Tywin was nicer to Tyrion everything would be better, its seems that Tyrion has poisoned the relationship between Cersei and Tyrion as they are viewed by him the same.
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May 30, 2014 19:27
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bobkatt013 posted:I think we are saying the same thing. I was pointing out that if Joffrey never died then it would be possible for Sansa's kids to inherit Casterly Rock. It also does not matter if everyone knows they could not do it, Cersei does and making sure they will be blamed. Its not just if Tywin was nicer to Tyrion everything would be better, its seems that Tyrion has poisoned the relationship between Cersei and Tyrion as they are viewed by him the same. Tywin 100% could tell Cersei to shut up and leave Tyrion alone if he had any interest in it. He could even do it to Joffrey, who was much dumber and didn't grow up in his shadow. He's letting Cersei be spiteful to Tyrion because he feels exactly the same way. Also, Tyrion didn't poison his relationship with Cersei. Cersei hated him from the day he was born (as we were told once again by Oberryn last episode). Edit: Also, i think their hypothetical kids would still have a claim on Casterly Rock, since Bran, Rickon, and Sansa all retained their claim on Winterfell after both Ned and Robb were named traitors. Bobo the Red fucked around with this message at 19:50 on May 30, 2014 |
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May 30, 2014 19:39
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Bobo the Red posted:Also, Tyrion didn't poison his relationship with Cersei. Cersei hated him from the day he was born (as we were told once again by Oberryn last episode) She pinched his little pecker 
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May 30, 2014 19:50
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Bobo the Red posted:If Tywin wasn't a hateful hypocrite, and he'd simply been nice to Tyrion, who is as adept at the game as he is, if not more, the Lannister name would be safe, and the war likely would've already been won. Tywin discarded his greatest asset, and it looks likely to loving ruin him. And it's loving great. Definitely true. At this point, I'm convinced Tywin knows exactly how capable Tyrion is, and his hatred is motivated by pure spite. For all the criticism of Tyrion's whoring and drinking, Tywin still trusted him as Master of Coin, and must know that Tyrion saved King's Landing from Stannis. He knows he's competent and capable, regardless of his hobbies. And Tywin must also know that Jaime and Cersei - who aren't dwarves and have had no disadvantages in life - are even more flawed and unreliable. My pet theory at this point is that Tywin doesn't even hate Tyrion for being a dwarf; he hates Tyrion for killing his wife. Otherwise, it does seem strange that a pragmatist like Tywin wouldn't have remarried and fathered more children in the intervening ~30 years. He may have truly loved his wife, and nothing Tyrion can possibly do will fix it. (I also think that Tywin doesn't actually want Tyrion to die, just to go away. As you said, he must know that Tyrion didn't kill Joffrey. He just wanted an excuse to send him away; the deal to send Tyrion to the Wall and to pull Jaime from the Kingsguard was a total win-win for him.)
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May 30, 2014 19:51
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Bobo the Red posted:Tywin 100% could tell Cersei to shut up and leave Tyrion alone if he had any interest in it. He could even do it to Joffrey, who was much dumber and didn't grow up in his shadow. He's letting Cersei be spiteful to Tyrion because he feels exactly the same way. I thought it was due to Tywin telling Cersei that Tyrion killed her mother from the day he was born? I also agree that he is allowing it to happen since he can use it to his advantage. Before the wedding Tyrion kids could be useful to carry Tywin name, after the wedding its a way to get rid of Tyrion and get Jaime to father kids. He is also getting a king that will listen to him more. Was there any upsides to keeping Joffrey alive to Tywin?
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May 30, 2014 19:52
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Angela Christine posted:Sansa is awful, but I don't know how much you can really hold her accountable for. She's a young teenager. She's not even had her first period at the beginning of the story so right in the middle of puberty/hormonal insanity. Most of us were pretty awful at that time of life.
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May 30, 2014 20:01
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bobkatt013 posted:I thought it was due to Tywin telling Cersei that Tyrion killed her mother from the day he was born? It's definitely possible that Tywin's attitude towards Tyrion helped her hate him, but she's also always been pretty hateful (and Jaime still likes him). Tyrion talked to her about when she had a 9 year old maid beaten so badly she lost an eye. Cersei was also 9 at that time. It also seems unlikely that a grief stricken Tywin mourning his wife would take the time to go to his daughter at all (he's a sexist, too, remember?), let alone to tell her to hate Tyrion. I think they just reached the same conclusion. Joffrey being dead is pretty much the best outcome for everyone in Westeros except for Cersei and crossbow manufacturers. But as we saw, killing him was awkward, as killing any king is, so Tywin wasn't going to do it, since Joffrey was crazy but also mostly controllable (especially by Tywin). I guess it's also pretty bad for Tommen because it has increased his chances of dying to like 88%. Xealot posted:My pet theory at this point is that Tywin doesn't even hate Tyrion for being a dwarf; he hates Tyrion for killing his wife. Otherwise, it does seem strange that a pragmatist like Tywin wouldn't have remarried and fathered more children in the intervening ~30 years. He may have truly loved his wife, and nothing Tyrion can possibly do will fix it. Oh, Tywin definitely was super into his wife. Nothing else explains being so into power-brokering marriages and staying single, and hating his son so godamn much. The dwarf thing just makes it easier. I think Tywin wants Tyrion dead, but not badly enough to risk the only thing he still loves, the family name. Or to pass up a chance to ruin him and get his preferred heir back.
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May 30, 2014 20:30
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That DICK! posted:Man, will you gently caress off? Thread turned south after the episode excitement/interest/humor died and it got super-spergy anyway... but then got pissed at even a slight mention of the books, even if it's literally pre-story stuff that the show also considers canon. Nevermind how upsetting mentioning the books is when people literally ask questions about them/only answerable with them. If it's stuff that was changed in the show, that's fine (a la Stannis argument... though the viewer knows the truth, as do the majority of Westerosi... even by the show  [as evidenced by 4/7 regions raising banners against the incest bastard and only 1/7 standing with]). But most of it seems petty and misdirected at nuances omitted simply because of storytelling medium.Lastly, I don't see why encouraging him that Sansa eventually becomes a non-poo poo reading experience is upsetting. Go P.S. I honestly thought the people complaining about poll/long OP were joking because there was no way people could be that awful when the forums bring you to the next unread post. I am now thoroughly convinced that I was wrong; as wrong as I was when thinking historical tidbits you'd only know from reading the books might be interesting to show viewers. bobkatt013 posted:I thought it was due to Tywin telling Cersei that Tyrion killed her mother from the day he was born? Joffrey was proving to be liability pretty much whenever he was allowed to exercise his power.
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May 30, 2014 20:38
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bUm posted:Sure. If someone asks something we don't know about in the show, the answer is "we don't know". Saying Sansa gets more interesting is a spoiler, because it tells me, for example, that Little finger is highly unlikely to kill her next episode. Which is probably fine, I doubt anyone really thought that. Except someone is gonna gently caress up and say something that does spoil things, and the only way to prevent that is to keep book chat out entirely. It's not that it's not interesting, it's that you can't know what may or may not come up on the show, and some people want to experience it unspoiled. There are other threads to talk about the books in. The OP includes a list of people to PM if you want just that one spoiler. If you can't separate your viewing of the show from your reading of the books, then this might not be the thread for you.
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May 30, 2014 21:05
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If Syrio was cool he would have run with Arya but that's not as good for the story.
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May 30, 2014 22:16
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fleshweasel posted:If Syrio was cool he would have run with Arya but that's not as good for the story. He couldn't have run because he had to slow down the guards. Arya can't run very fast.
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May 30, 2014 23:18
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He could, however, probably have picked up a real sword from one of the dudes he knocked out, and then just won.
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May 30, 2014 23:27
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Bobo the Red posted:He could, however, probably have picked up a real sword from one of the dudes he knocked out, and then just won. Maybe he did just that! 
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May 30, 2014 23:34
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Antti posted:The Kingsguard is very prestigious and a golden cloak is held as a mark of honour among swordsmen so Loras might well take it up if offered. A WHITE cloak, actually! The Goldcloaks are the city watch of King's Landing, not the Kingsguard itself. Kingsguard is prestigious, City Watch isn't.
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May 31, 2014 02:32
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