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Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
oh god i'm turning into one of them

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cowboy beepboop
Feb 24, 2001

yeah it would be good it popped up gain every 5 mins if someone messaged you. also if empthay worked with lync so i didn't have to run pidgin.

echinopsis
Apr 13, 2004

by Fluffdaddy

Mr Dog posted:

oh god i'm turning into one of them

u have turned

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005

having elaborate opinions about the different desktop linux implementations and details is much like having elaborate opinions on the merits of various makes of industrial water pumps (while thinking that people who deal with oil pumps are heathens wasting their lifes)

it is not that there aren't sensible reasons for all opinions, it will just forever fascinate all normal people that you for some reason care (except if you work for a pump company, i.e. actually professionally use one of the linux custom cad systems or such)

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Mr Dog posted:

oh god i'm turning into one of them

i.e. you're learning their gambit

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Cybernetic Vermin posted:

having elaborate opinions about the different desktop linux implementations and details is much like having elaborate opinions on the merits of various makes of industrial water pumps
a distant family member sells and maintains pumps. he has lots of pump opinions. your choice of pump brand/design is v. important to him.

i work with linux for a living go figure what i give a poo poo about

pagoe
Feb 19, 2013
does 2014 still feel doable or have we moved on to 2015 already

The Management
Jan 2, 2010

sup, bitch?
we're nearing the halfway point and I'm not seeing more linux desktops than last year. are we counting chromebooks or are they not a real linux?

pseudopresence
Mar 3, 2005

I want to get online...
I need a computer!
I upgraded my mobo + cpu and now my sound doesn't work - it sounds haunted like it loops and crackles. I read on a random forum post I should download and install the realtek drivers from source but that didn't help. I gave up at that point, I can just listen to music through my phone instead nbd. just linux things

prefect
Sep 11, 2001

No one, Woodhouse.
No one.




Dead Man’s Band

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

a distant family member sells and maintains pumps. he has lots of pump opinions. your choice of pump brand/design is v. important to him.

i work with linux for a living go figure what i give a poo poo about

you like debian, right? this looks pretty neat: http://ci.debian.net/

ShadowHawk
Jun 25, 2000

CERTIFIED PRE OWNED TESLA OWNER

The Management posted:

we're nearing the halfway point and I'm not seeing more linux desktops than last year. are we counting chromebooks or are they not a real linux?
any day now we'll start counting android phones that can plug into docking stations

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost

Fib posted:

I upgraded my mobo + cpu and now my sound doesn't work - it sounds haunted like it loops and crackles. I read on a random forum post I should download and install the realtek drivers from source but that didn't help. I gave up at that point, I can just listen to music through my phone instead nbd. just linux things

(i had a Windows 7 BSOD while composing this post. go figure. the partially composed text was there when I restarted firefox though so that's pretty neat)

:psyduck:

I am amazed that this is still an issue in 2014. Like, HD Audio has been standardised for years and years now. Windows has a generic driver for HD Audio controllers so I'm guessing Linux should have one too, why doesn't it work?

prefect
Sep 11, 2001

No one, Woodhouse.
No one.




Dead Man’s Band

Mr Dog posted:

(i had a Windows 7 BSOD while composing this post. go figure. the partially composed text was there when I restarted firefox though so that's pretty neat)

:psyduck:

I am amazed that this is still an issue in 2014. Like, HD Audio has been standardised for years and years now. Windows has a generic driver for HD Audio controllers so I'm guessing Linux should have one too, why doesn't it work?

if sound and printing were easy, it wouldn't be linux :)

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
well alsa IS pretty terrible I suppose. It has this hideously complicated API for all sorts of hardware acceleration that hasn't been relevant for like 10 years now.

Your CPU is much much much much much better at doing a saturating multiply-accumulate loop than some crappy piece of Taiwanese silicon (which doesn't even have a hardware volume control these days)

on the other hand, video cards have gone in the opposite direction, from being little more than exotic DMA controllers to these crazy multicore NUMA beasts.

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
anyway, Suspicious Dish, I know you're the guy implementing the prototype for the new notification thing, can you please beat it into the designers' heads that there needs to be some sort of notification that you have unread notifications waiting in the tray? tia

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?







College Slice
instead of persistent notifications can we have notifications for unread notifications about unread notifications

that seems more linux

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

a distant family member sells and maintains pumps. he has lots of pump opinions. your choice of pump brand/design is v. important to him.

i work with linux for a living go figure what i give a poo poo about

nice job reiterating my point without adding anything of value

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?







College Slice

Cybernetic Vermin posted:

nice job reiterating my point without adding anything of value

this is the linux thread

pseudorandom name
May 6, 2007

Mr Dog posted:

(i had a Windows 7 BSOD while composing this post. go figure. the partially composed text was there when I restarted firefox though so that's pretty neat)

:psyduck:

I am amazed that this is still an issue in 2014. Like, HD Audio has been standardised for years and years now. Windows has a generic driver for HD Audio controllers so I'm guessing Linux should have one too, why doesn't it work?

HD Audio may be a standard, but it is cheaper to just do whatever and ship a customized Windows driver the deals with your Chinese shitbox's quirks instead of altering the hardware

fortunately our lord and savior Steve pbuh has solved printing by requiring IPP and PDF

pseudopresence
Mar 3, 2005

I want to get online...
I need a computer!

Mr Dog posted:

anyway, Suspicious Dish, I know you're the guy implementing the prototype for the new notification thing, can you please beat it into the designers' heads that there needs to be some sort of notification that you have unread notifications waiting in the tray? tia

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Mr Dog posted:

Windows has a generic driver for HD Audio controllers so I'm guessing Linux should have one too, why doesn't it work?

hd audio only has a small number of chipsets, it's true. that part works fine in linux.

where this breaks down is that there are like a thousand ways to wire/configure each one in hardware. the linux driver ships with a shitload of pre-set assumptions based on your motherboard, but that shitload is never going to be comprehensive.

it's not like taiwanese OEMs are hopping up and down to mail their next changes to lkml

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Cybernetic Vermin posted:

nice job reiterating my point without adding anything of value

i was deliberately removing any trace of satire from the analogy by using a concrete example. what you said is literally true and nothing is funny or ironic about it.

Bloody
Mar 3, 2013

Cybernetic Vermin posted:

having elaborate opinions about the different desktop linux implementations and details is much like having elaborate opinions on the merits of various makes of industrial water pumps (while thinking that people who deal with oil pumps are heathens wasting their lifes)

it is not that there aren't sensible reasons for all opinions, it will just forever fascinate all normal people that you for some reason care (except if you work for a pump company, i.e. actually professionally use one of the linux custom cad systems or such)

iwaki walchem supremacy, particularly the japanese motored varieties :c00lbert:

The Management
Jan 2, 2010

sup, bitch?

api call girl posted:

instead of persistent notifications can we have notifications for unread notifications about unread notifications

that seems more linux

WARNING: You have 8 unread messages
WARNING: Last message repeated 3 times
WARNING: Last message repeated 20 times
WARNING: Last message repeated 100 times
WARNING: Last message repeated 100 times
WARNING: Last message repeated 100 times
WARNING: Last message repeated 100 times
WARNING: Last message repeated 100 times

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?







College Slice

The Management posted:

WARNING: You have 8 unread messages
WARNING: Last message repeated 3 times
WARNING: Last message repeated 20 times
WARNING: Last message repeated 100 times
WARNING: Last message repeated 100 times
WARNING: Last message repeated 100 times
WARNING: Last message repeated 100 times
WARNING: Last message repeated 100 times

it's The Right Thing To Do

penus de milo
Mar 9, 2002

CHAR CHAR

Fib posted:

I upgraded my mobo + cpu and now my sound doesn't work - it sounds haunted like it loops and crackles. I read on a random forum post I should download and install the realtek drivers from source but that didn't help. I gave up at that point, I can just listen to music through my phone instead nbd. just linux things

sound issues in linux you say :eyepop:

Suspicious Dish
Sep 24, 2011

2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro
Fun Shoe

Mr Dog posted:

I mean tbf I actually like gnome 3 and even I'm starting to get soured by some of the poo poo that Alan Day (UI designer) comes up with, because it's becoming increasingly evident that this guy has no plan or ability to think things through and just makes poo poo up as he goes along.

Like the new notification centre. Good for the most part (but then they basically just ripped off Android's notification centre wholesale) but the mockups show private IM messages on the lock screen.

Believe it or not, this was actually just a copy-paste mistake by Allan. We've used the same set of sample notifications, and it just completely slipped his mind that there were IMs on the lock screen.

Mr Dog posted:

more to the point it still gives no persistent indication of pending notifications. so if somebody's trying to get ahold of you and you look the wrong way for two seconds then you're not going to know about it for hours, potentially.

Note that there is code to make sure that if you haven't moved the mouse or tapped on the keyboard for a bit since you got the notification, it will stay up until you do. We rely on that behavior, but if you're busy looking at the other monitor or another app on a giant screen, it's still possible to miss them.

Mr Dog posted:

so i have to ask, how god drat incompetent do you have to think that this would be at all well received? sure let's just ignore the primary purpose of a notification system, nbd. suspicious dish would give his universal answer of "file a bug report" but it'll inevitably get CLOSED WONTFIX because no notification system that is fit for purpose can be made consistent with the gnome 3 ~*artistic vision*~. you can't debate major design decisions on bug trackers.

I would never ask people to file design bugs on Bugzilla. I bring up all the design feedback directly with the designers and try to push them to work towards better solutions. I tell them the issues people are having. Bugzilla isn't a great forum for design feedback since often times it's too task-focused, and it's hard to iterate on a Bugzilla bug.

The drawer was I think a great first step towards the new designs. We've tried for a long time to make the Android system work, but the first attempt was a full-screen overlay:



Basically, a large part of the drawer was trying to fix the issues with the one-source-at-a-time-that-has-multiple-notifications-in-it tray that just didn't work, and I think it was somewhat successful as an experiment (I've already mocked it up quite well in code). Since then, we're saying that if we are going to rewrite half of the notification system (the tray), why not try to go all the way, be bold, and see how much we can change.

Mr Dog posted:

The design language of gnome 3 has changed a lot over time as well, which again makes me think they don't know what the gently caress they're doing and just throw random poo poo against the wall until people don't hate it too much. look at the menu in the top-right corner of the screen for an example of this, there hasn't been a single release where they haven't changed stuff around there and managed to piss off a different group of people with that iteration's changes.

Of course we change stuff around and constantly iterate on designs. We often make mistakes and try to make things better all the time. If you do all your design in the open, that's what happens.

Notifications are a hard balance to strike. We hear from people that they're a bit too annoying, and we also hear from people that that they're not annoying enough.

We're trying alternate solutions for all the notifications stuff based on feedback. We're looking at trying something similar to OS X (we have a few issues with this, because the notification in the top right means it might be too easy to close it when trying to go to the gear menu or close a maximized window)




This will also give you an icon in the top right where you can see if you have notifications or not. Another option is putting them in the top bar and calendar popup. This was covered in a bit more depth on World of GNOME:

http://worldofgnome.org/shell-calendar-experiments-from-jimmac/

This loses the inline reply of an IM notification with a simple hover (you have to click now), and makes the calendar a bit awkward and complex of a control, but the notification replacing the clock in the top bar means that we don't steal any real estate from the user. The other thing is that now we're back to only showing one notification at a time, and being "DDoS"d by notifications was a bit concern that we wanted to try to fix.

Again, nothing is final. We can change and iterate at any point based on user feedback.

Mr. Dog, I sent your raw feedback directly to Allan (well, I changed "suspicious dish" to "jasper", but kept the rest the same). I think a lot of it is loud and clear.

And yes, doing all this in the open, along with user feedback, user experience studies, etc. means that sometimes you get to see some of our terrible, bad ideas before something great comes along. Yes, we can't always say we know what we're doing, because nobody knows everything, and it's a learning experience for all of us.

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
um, ok. well calling the guy incompetent to his face probably wouldn't have been my first choice of phrasing had i known he would be reading it directly, but that was mostly bourne out of a frustration with a seeming lack of responsiveness from the designers and also a lack of a clear road map (also yospos bitch, obviously i wouldn't phrase my comments like that outside of the funy computer forum). then again this wouldn't be the first time i've inadvertently called a staff member for a project i actually rather like a dumbass to their face on somethingawful :blush: please forward my apologies for my abrupt tone as well if possible.

imho moving this stuff to the calendar is an even worse idea, because those two things have absolutely nothing to do with each other. i'm not sure where else to cram an indication though. not the logout/network/volume/kitchensink icon because that's fuzzy enough as it is, and not activities or clock either. maybe give the bottom of the screen a non-animated glow if notifications are pending?

anyway, thanks for responding. the picture you paint is a very different picture to the one that trickles out via lwn and planet gnome, it's good to see you guys are re-evaluating this aspect of the project because the impression i got before that is that gnome 3 is treated as a playground for design ideas that aren't up for debate. have you considered doing some more outreach and "pr" type activities for gnome? you could do a lot to turn the project's reputation around i think.

Sapozhnik fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Jun 13, 2014

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Mr Dog posted:

the impression i got before that is that gnome 3 is treated as a playground for design ideas that aren't up for debate.
maybe it is...

...but you have an inside line in the form of suspicious dish.

Suspicious Dish
Sep 24, 2011

2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro
Fun Shoe
Allan has heard a lot worse, and he's told me before he prefers raw feedback to something that's more sugarcoated, because we do want to understand what the current frustrations are, and solve problems directly.

The reason for the calendar is because it's all about "the now", and it's similar to what iOS does, so there's at least a bit of precedent:



That said, I wasn't a big fan of it either (inline reply widgets inside a menu-ish thing seem weird to me). But that's how iterative design works. You can take a design like that, identify things you do like about it, don't like about it, and then try something else that builds on that.

Putting it in the top bar lets us reclaim a bit of screen real estate, since there's really no great place for a true notification (people don't tend to see it at the bottom of the screen, the bottom of the screen is ergonomically more difficult to get to, top is already too busy and cluttered with window controls). We're going to see if we can integrate the top bar notification style with the sidebar, since I think I like both of those approaches.

We tried a non-animated glow at the bottom of the screen if you had notifications, but user testing said it was both "too invisible" (people didn't know what it meant), and "too visible" (users who were busy felt bothered by the constant "PAY ATTENTION TO ME NOW!" at the bottom of the screen that obscured what you were doing).

There's always ideas to try, and ways to improve. I'm currently mocking up three other ideas I was handed to see which one works best in interaction. Some look great on paper, and have subtle details you didn't really think about. Others might look terrible and awkward, but it's the best thing you've ever done. It's a process.

Also, of course we're aware of the public perception of GNOME 3, but it is getting a bit better over time as people start to understand the model that we're going for. And yeah, it really took us until 3.6 / 3.8 before we figured out how the OS and shell and apps all fit together. If you have any suggestions for improving the PR, I'll relay them to our engagement team. You could also join it directly: engagement and marketing are volunteer-run projects.

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
i'm saying you personally could do a lot of good in that role if you have time for it. i like reading your blog posts about wayland stuff if nothing else.

i don't sit with you guys so i don't know what kind of ideas get bounced around.

Suspicious Dish
Sep 24, 2011

2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro
Fun Shoe
I intentionally try to stay out of controversy in my blog posts. I like teaching people about cool new technology, and getting all up ons about desktop environments is not really going to do that.

Dodoman
Feb 26, 2009



A moment of laxity
A lifetime of regret
Lipstick Apathy

Suspicious Dish posted:

I like teaching people about cool new technology

well you do a really good job doing that so :hf:

Suspicious Dish
Sep 24, 2011

2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro
Fun Shoe
Thank you. I'm always happy to hear that my work is appreciated, especially when I haven't really linked it in here and you guys know about it.

Tankakern
Jul 25, 2007

what i've learned from reading this thread:
  • notorious b.s.d. is full of bitterness and bile
  • wine is actually getting dx10/11 patches, nice
  • os x as unix is bad

Suspicious Dish
Sep 24, 2011

2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro
Fun Shoe
Thank you guys for the words of encouragement earlier. I went ahead and finished up my effortpost on Wayland. It's probably a bit too detailed and assumes too much knowledge, but hopefully it's somewhat readable!

http://blog.mecheye.net/2014/06/xdg-shell/

theadder
Dec 30, 2011


osx is the best of all possible worlds

theadder
Dec 30, 2011


and yet it gets better

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Suspicious Dish posted:

Thank you guys for the words of encouragement earlier. I went ahead and finished up my effortpost on Wayland. It's probably a bit too detailed and assumes too much knowledge, but hopefully it's somewhat readable!

http://blog.mecheye.net/2014/06/xdg-shell/

are there any other (current) consumers of your xdg-shell work?

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Tankakern
Jul 25, 2007

Suspicious Dish posted:

Thank you guys for the words of encouragement earlier. I went ahead and finished up my effortpost on Wayland. It's probably a bit too detailed and assumes too much knowledge, but hopefully it's somewhat readable!

http://blog.mecheye.net/2014/06/xdg-shell/
nice

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