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LividLiquid posted:False equivalence, boss. I don't need the show to condemn behavior I find abhorrent. I just don't enjoy when it acts as if those same bahviors should be rewarded. Louie isn't rewarded for terrible behaviour, though? He gets called a lovely rapist!
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Jun 18, 2014 11:21
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LividLiquid posted:I do not, under any circumstances, think this was the message Louie was trying to send. Not at all. But that's how it came across. I don't think Louie cares about what message his show is sending, the show is rated TV-MA and should not be watched by people who are still looking for parental guidance on matters of morality such as if rape is right or wrong.
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Jun 18, 2014 11:24
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Randandal posted:I don't think Louie cares about what message his show is sending, the show is rated TV-MA and should not be watched by people who are still looking for parental guidance on matters of morality such as if rape is right or wrong. This is such a lovely post, I don't think Louie is necessarily being didactic but there are definitely values inherent in any TV show, and in a show as auteur-based as this, what's being expressed is worth discussing.
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Jun 18, 2014 11:27
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I think "right message" is a pretty lovely standard for storytelling.
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Jun 18, 2014 11:27
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LividLiquid posted:False equivalence, boss. I don't need the show to condemn behavior I find abhorrent. I just don't enjoy when it acts as if those same bahviors should be rewarded. Real life is often -- in fact, usually -- more complicated than media messages. Here is a 100% true story of a guy and a girl. They were on their first date. They had similar interests in art, movies, similar outlooks on life. She was the staunchest feminist he had ever met, and not in the "gurl power!" type of feminism, but in old school, women are completely the equal of men way, the type who thought even hyphenating her last name should she get married was silly, let alone taking her husbands last name. After all, she's not his property. Anyway, they went out on a date and had a good time. They had driven separately but he offered to drive her back to her apartment and she agreed. In the parking lot he kissed her. She kissed back, then pulled away. He looked at her. He knew that no meant no, no always means no. He pulled her to him and kissed her fiercely. He got out of the car, went over to her side, and pulled her out. He dragged her by her hair up a flight of stairs and in the landing, took off her clothes and had sex with her, this staunch feminist, this liberal true believer of women's rights and equality. One month later they were married. She kept her last name. And they were joyously happy together until her untimely passing 7 years later. Was she raped? e: incidentally, I have a real life incident in my life that mirrors a bit from Louis's standup so closely that you'll think I'm plagarizing, but I swear this is true. So I was 17 or so and worked at the mall. There was this absolutely gorgeous chick who worked at a kiosk right outside the video arcade I worked in. I'd go out and flirt with her a lot, which was easy for me because I simply thought she was out of my league. It's much easier to be cocky / confident, charming when you have no pressure because she's just too drat good looking. Anyway after weeks of chatting her up (without expecting it to go anywhere, like I said), she finally gets frustrated at me not moving forward I guess and asks when I'm going to ask her out already. I instantly segue into "well we're going out tonight right" cause I'm smooth and whatnot, but now I'm stressing. Anyway, we end up making plans to just go over to her house -- her parents are rich and she lives in a mini mansion type of deal, so her parents are home but like in another drat wing of the house. We watch tv, she ends up stripping down and we're making out, but any time I start to make a move she gets all coy and pulls away. She leads me to another room, which is a guest bedroom type of thing, and the same thing happens again. Finally I get frustrated and ask what the deal is. She's naked, beneath me, and literally says "Why don't you just rape me". I instantly get freaked out and leave immediately. Not only until much later did I realize that that was really what she wanted: forceful, violent sex. Which sounds bad typing it out because no means no, we all know that, except that some women have different versions of no. I had been passive the whole time but my jerk / cocky behavior at the mall had made her think I was ... well, more assertive. I think she was embarrassed by the whole thing too because we didn't really talk after that. So, another question. If I had had sex with her, would that have been rape? regulargonzalez fucked around with this message at 11:38 on Jun 18, 2014 |
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Jun 18, 2014 11:33
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regulargonzalez posted:Was she raped? Not sure, which episode was that
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Jun 18, 2014 11:37
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regulargonzalez posted:e: incidentally, I have a real life incident in my life that mirrors a bit from Louis's standup so closely that you'll think I'm plagarizing, but I swear this is true. Doesn't everyone? Like, that's what's funny about it.
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Jun 18, 2014 11:42
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verybad posted:Doesn't everyone? Like, that's what's funny about it. I was unaware of this.
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Jun 18, 2014 11:43
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I think that might be a part of the joke, actually.
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Jun 18, 2014 11:58
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Monicro posted:no thats my expression toward your post But he actually didn't rape her. Not that it wasn't a minor sexual assault, and didn't have overt rapey undertones, but to actually say the character raped her is being way over-the-top.
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Jun 18, 2014 12:14
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I'm not saying that it just felt like he was kinda handwaving what he did do, but idk maybe I'm just dumb
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Jun 18, 2014 12:36
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Goddamn it why are we still on this?
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Jun 18, 2014 13:29
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bubblelubble posted:Goddamn it why are we still on this? Because it was genuinely a pretty provocative scene
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Jun 18, 2014 13:31
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Because people can't seem to get through that Louie didn't rape her just came on super strong and acted like a entitled rear end in a top hat, because he's a guy and men are lovely at things. That "Yes" at the end tells us everything to know and that was super dark humour, heres this guy who's almost or actually sexually assaulting a woman and then after it's over he thnks he did good? The whole things basically " Yeah you may love him and think he's funny but he's a lovely person too and has serious problems this is how stupid some men actuall are" I thought it was rather brilliant. Also I'd like to point out that everything in the show almost pivots and revolves on Louies relationships with the women in his life and how just a complete gently caress up he is at some of those relationships. Here he is in "love", with someone who cannot speak his own loving langauge. That tells you everything about that person. He felt entitled with Amia just as he did with Pamela. Hollismason fucked around with this message at 13:39 on Jun 18, 2014 |
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Jun 18, 2014 13:34
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You guys can consider it rape all you want, but apparently none of the characters on this fictional show did (and, yes, it was played for laughs even though this can be construed as very horrible), so can we just let it go?
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Jun 18, 2014 13:59
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I'm convinced this whole season was actually a ploy to fill this thread with the shittiest posts.
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Jun 18, 2014 14:24
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Does anybody think "that" scene was just Louie's interpretation of a man being overly aggressive in wanting a woman to like them? There are bits in his stand-up talking about a womens hug/kiss defense move. I'm maybe looking for a way out for Louie because i'm a fan but there are a lot of surreal/imaginary scenes in the show - often within a normal scene - so maybe that scene was one of those.
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Jun 18, 2014 15:12
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Dude you cannot write off sexual assault imagery as being "surreality." I think the scene is worth having discussions about but that train of thought should not have left the station.
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Jun 18, 2014 15:17
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There's also the bit where Pamela says "dude you suck, you can't even rape well!" or something to that effect so uh
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Jun 18, 2014 15:30
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I think people were waiting for a resolution to the end of Part 1 that wasn't really necessary. The scene stands pretty well on its own - it's set up by a very, very lengthy bit of standup about how terrible the type of thing that's about to happen is, it's pretty clearly played as Louie being a piece of poo poo, and the punchline is him being oblivious and celebrating his "victory." I also think there's a reason Into the Woods aired between Part 1 and Part 2/3, to give it some space and to let Louie tell a different story than the fallout of a sexual assault. And to say that Louie won over Pamela by "wearing her down" is denying that character her agency - she was interested in him, but that doesn't mean he's entitled to anything from her. The fact that women have to deal with that kind of behavior from a close friend, from a person whom she is interested in romantically/sexually is a problem too. Just because there isn't a big flashing bar that says RAPE IS BAD AND WOMEN SHOULD BE TREATED WITH RESPECT doesn't mean you should try to extract the worst possible reading from the show, because What If Dumber People Misunderstand??
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Jun 18, 2014 15:32
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"This would be rape if you weren't so stupid" "You can't even rape well" He definitely would not have included those lines in the script if the audience wasn't supposed to think about sexual assault.
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Jun 18, 2014 15:33
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I noticed that apparently the show has had a time jump! When Louie calls Pam the first time she says "It's 2017, everyone has caller ID bla bla." Thought that was interesting.
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Jun 18, 2014 18:35
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BIG CITY LAWYER posted:I noticed that apparently the show has had a time jump! When Louie calls Pam the first time she says "It's 2017, everyone has caller ID bla bla." Thought that was interesting.
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Jun 18, 2014 18:41
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regulargonzalez posted:Real life is often -- in fact, usually -- more complicated than media messages. Here is a 100% true story of a guy and a girl. They were on their first date. They had similar interests in art, movies, similar outlooks on life. She was the staunchest feminist he had ever met, and not in the "gurl power!" type of feminism, but in old school, women are completely the equal of men way, the type who thought even hyphenating her last name should she get married was silly, let alone taking her husbands last name. After all, she's not his property. One of my favorite singular bits of Louie's was his retelling of a date who wanted to gently caress badly despite all rational evidence of the contrary, from 'Chewed Up' iirc. "You want me to rape you, ruin my life and go to jail on the off chance you're into it?!"
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Jun 18, 2014 18:49
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Scrub Lover posted:either you're being facetious or you can't detect when other people are You're going to look silly when Hurricane Jasmine Forsythe destroys the eastern seaboard in three years.
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Jun 18, 2014 19:00
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I hadn't read this thread all season and wanted to see what people thought of the bathtub scene but nope its another tviv discussion about rape.  When Louie got naked my wife said "You have the body of Louie and the personality of Pamela." is that a double insult or just one?
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Jun 18, 2014 19:11
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Jake Armitage posted:I love how so many defenders of that scene were basically resting on the idea that its unfair to judge since it was just part one and we have no idea where it's going and Louis is making Louie a villain or whatever. Then he resolves the attempted rape in basically the worst way possible (he gets the girl? REALLY?) and a whole new set of justifications arise. I don't think his point was that if you try to rape someone you'll get the girl. That definitely doesn't seem to be what they were going for. I do think he may be toying with people looking for explicit moral guidance on rape from a TV show though.
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Jun 18, 2014 19:13
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Scrub Lover posted:either you're being facetious or you can't detect when other people are Ugh, sorry. I was trying to make a time travel joke to distract from rape chat but I'm recovering from food poisoning and not terribly coherent!
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Jun 18, 2014 19:16
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regulargonzalez posted:Real life is often -- in fact, usually -- more complicated than media messages. Here is a 100% true story of a guy and a girl. They were on their first date. They had similar interests in art, movies, similar outlooks on life. She was the staunchest feminist he had ever met, and not in the "gurl power!" type of feminism, but in old school, women are completely the equal of men way, the type who thought even hyphenating her last name should she get married was silly, let alone taking her husbands last name. After all, she's not his property. Yes, unless she started moaning "oh god yes, take me!" around the time he was pulling her out of the car. regulargonzalez posted:e: incidentally, I have a real life incident in my life that mirrors a bit from Louis's standup so closely that you'll think I'm plagarizing, but I swear this is true. I would say no, because she was lying under you naked literally saying "why don't you 'rape' me?" She was saying "I want to have sex with you, but I have some issue where I can't just clearly say 'I like rough, violent sex." I think you did the right thing, though. This was a person you barely knew who was being weird about consent. I feel like what happened pretty much makes sense for Louie and Pamela's characters, but it still makes me feel bleh, and it's gross to think of all the reddit dudes watching that thinking "yes, see it worked for Louie!!" It may not be his job to show morally correct behavior, but he's certainly not helping women out by showing a guy wear a girl down and get her to date/gently caress him soon after sexually assaulting her.
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Jun 18, 2014 20:18
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regulargonzalez posted:Real life is often -- in fact, usually -- more complicated than media messages. Here is a 100% true story of a guy and a girl. They were on their first date. They had similar interests in art, movies, similar outlooks on life. She was the staunchest feminist he had ever met, and not in the "gurl power!" type of feminism, but in old school, women are completely the equal of men way, the type who thought even hyphenating her last name should she get married was silly, let alone taking her husbands last name. After all, she's not his property. regulargonzalez posted:Now that Community is dead, I nominate Louie to be the reigning "best show with worst thread" champ. Do I have a second? Well, you've put in the hard work and convinced me. Seconded.
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Jun 18, 2014 20:53
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"God this thread has terrible posts!" *posts a terrible screed questioning the nature of rape*
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Jun 18, 2014 21:03
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If a girl gets dragged by her hair up a flight of stairs and raped, is it really rape?
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Jun 18, 2014 21:09
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Randandal posted:Yall know he didn't rape her, right? I feel like I contributed several tangents of discussion here but the only thing that anybody responded to was the part in the spoiler tag. Why don't you guys shut the gently caress up about surprising sex and grow a sense of humor about uncomfortable things? Louis CK's entire career is built upon laughing at uncomfortable things.
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Jun 18, 2014 21:25
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Randandal posted:I feel like I contributed several tangents of discussion here but the only thing that anybody responded to was the part in the spoiler tag. Why don't you guys shut the gently caress up about surprising sex and grow a sense of humor about uncomfortable things? Louis CK's entire career is built upon laughing at uncomfortable things. I don't think the point of making comedy about uncomfortable things is to have a chuckle and then stop thinking or talking about it. Or maybe it is but then it's a lovely point.
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Jun 18, 2014 22:18
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verybad posted:I don't think the point of making comedy about uncomfortable things is to have a chuckle and then stop thinking or talking about it. Or maybe it is but then it's a lovely point. Well what I mean is, communicating, talking about it, that's what we're supposed to be doing. Slogging through circuitous false arguments about rape is dumb - the people criticizing this show for it are under the assumption that those defending the show are defending rape or that the show is somehow culpable for rape is sometimes okay in our culture, when that's a really absurd conversation to have. The art gallery scene was a meta-joke for this whole season, I feel. Louie hosed up and made a lot of people uncomfortable by pressing the friend of the family button, but it was funny instead of offensive because it was embarrassing for Louie. Had that rape scene not been there people would just be discussing the awfulness of the word friend of the family, or something else that totally avoids any deeper discussion about character motives or big life lessons, because we as a society are so easily distracted by big flashy outrages that we don't ever realize the biggest outrage is our inability to communicate on an everyday basis and be much happier as a society, or something like that.
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Jun 18, 2014 22:40
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There's one thing we can all agree on: the only situation where rape is okay, is if you want to have sex with someone, and they won't let you.
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Jun 18, 2014 22:48
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Grantland's Andy Greenwald - The Internet has a "Louie" Problem
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Jun 18, 2014 23:43
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PostNouveau posted:If a girl gets dragged by her hair up a flight of stairs and raped, is it really rape? Incidentally, I forgot to mention that she is the one who proposed to him. She hasn't had an abusive childhood, she wasn't mentally warped or neurotic or damaged. Why did a staunch feminist propose to him if she had been raped, instead of immediately calling the police or at least never talking to him again? People LOVE to slot everything from music to human behavior into binary categories. THIS Beatles record is psychedelic, THAT one isn't. THIS behavior is unquestionably wrong (except, apparently, to the people engaged in that behavior) , THAT behavior (and only that behavior) is morally acceptable. Reality has blurrier, fuzzy lines.
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Jun 18, 2014 23:46
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regulargonzalez posted:Incidentally, I forgot to mention that she is the one who proposed to him. She hasn't had an abusive childhood, she wasn't mentally warped or neurotic or damaged. Why did a staunch feminist propose to him if she had been raped, instead of immediately calling the police or at least never talking to him again? I like how feminism keeps getting brought up as if that makes any difference. She didn't think that was rape. Fine, but if a passer-by had witnesses it and called the cops you could see why they could have mistaken it for that.
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Jun 18, 2014 23:51
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This was a really good review, and made me appreciate the season a little more in hindsight than I thought I had. I really hope Louie has one more season (at least) in him. At the same time, Season 4 ended in a way that I feel like concludes a lot of the momentum that Louie had been creating throughout the series. None of the other seasons ended in quite as satisfactory a place (except perhaps, China, depending on your disposition). If he were still interested in pursuing the show, Season 5 would seem to have to be a bit of a tabula rasa, story-wise. Also, I wish he hadn't (or FX hadn't) chosen to air this season 2 episodes at a time- I feel like it sped up the internet discussion on some of the more salient episodes, and left the "less controversial" of certain pairs to go un-discussed. Jewmanji fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Jun 19, 2014 |
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Jun 19, 2014 00:56
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