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Somfin
Oct 25, 2010

In my🦚 experience🛠️ the big things🌑 don't teach you anything🤷‍♀️.

Nap Ghost

Arcsquad12 posted:

I love how absolutely rear end backwards Tropers get with regards to writing and structure. It is such loving common knowledge to avoid using alternatives for said unless you mean to emphasize a point. A good writer can convey tone without the need for a quip, a riposte, or a growl. "Said" is a drat useful word, and Tropers hate it like the plague.

There's precisely one time when one might use another word instead of "said," and that's when the tone doesn't match the words.

"'I still love you,' he said." Kinda bland, but it works.

"'I still love you,' he lied." Giving the audience a bit of extra info, but doesn't do much to the tone.

"'I still love you,' he said, coldly." loving adverbs. Still useful, but it's using an extra word.

"'I still love you,' he growled." Now you've got something. Unless the guy was previously established to growl almost everything he says. Then, it's not great, but it's still better than using an adverb.

As an occasional lexical spice, tonal notes help to develop character's voice. In overwhelming quantities they just disappear and turn into the word 'said' for those readers who can be persuaded to continue.

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LaughMyselfTo
Nov 15, 2012

by XyloJW
Eh, I have no preference for or against "said". I use different words when they sound right, not to avoid using a word. I'm aware morons force in said-synonyms because they're unaware that use of "said" isn't a flaw, and that's wrong, but it seems equally wrong to me to constrain one's writing style to fit into a group that hates the above morons. It's still cargo cult creativity, writing to match the right arbitrary subcultural markers.

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

TV Tropes even has a trope about how it's bad to avoid using "said," but there are no anime examples so Tropers didn't take the lesson to heart.

kaleidolia
Apr 25, 2012

LaughMyselfTo posted:

Eh, I have no preference for or against "said". I use different words when they sound right, not to avoid using a word. I'm aware morons force in said-synonyms because they're unaware that use of "said" isn't a flaw, and that's wrong, but it seems equally wrong to me to constrain one's writing style to fit into a group that hates the above morons. It's still cargo cult creativity, writing to match the right arbitrary subcultural markers.

Usually I don't notice or mind much, but "quipped" just seems like the author's pointing to the dialogue and saying "this is a joke".

Runcible Cat
May 28, 2007

Ignoring this post

kaleidolia posted:

Usually I don't notice or mind much, but "quipped" just seems like the author's pointing to the dialogue and saying "this is a joke".
It's the written equivalent of a laugh track. Look! This is the funny bit! I wrote a joke! Laugh!

Alpacalips Now
Oct 4, 2013
I just read that chapter of Washout Tom's epic and, oh man, my TEFL students write more natural, meaningful dialogue than that. And the action scenes read like blow-by-blows of action figure battles. At least anime has visual flair, bright colors and dramatic angles to make fights look interesting, but it's like he's not trying to translate any of that to writing. It reminds me of a thread on Creative Convention where someone is writing an intentionally bad Metroid military sci-fi fanfic, except the fanfic is actually better.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
I'm almost tempted to do some rewrites again. That whole battle sequence- there's something to the image of this short-of-stature woman wielding a weapon that's almost as large as she is, maybe she runs out of ammo and has to switch to melee in close quarters, brutally stabs some attackers, but then this strange alien creature comes in and he's superhumanly quick and it's all she can do to not die until help comes... but of course the strange alien creature spouts melodramatic dialogue and so does she and there's no sense of intensity to it at all.

Even if your subject matter is tropey and anime as all get-out, it's all about the execution.

Zemyla
Aug 6, 2008

I'll take her off your hands. Pleasure doing business with you!

Xander77 posted:

My understanding is that "said" went out of fashion a few decades back, and every writing authority suggested using synonyms. It's back in fashion at the moment, and presumably tropers are just trying to anticipate the trend when it becomes unfashionable once more.
My highschool English teacher told me to avoid overusing "said" back in the 90s. It was a thing for a while.

Quinctia
Jul 17, 2006

Disasterrific.
Eh, I think it's a nuance that a lot of bad writers don't understand. In a well written conversation, you don't actually need to attribute dialogue every other line. He said/she said/he said/she said, etc. The answer isn't to replace the attribution with said/queried/quipped/declared, it's to write more smoothly so you're not ending every sentance of dialogue with "pronoun-speaking verb."

Arist
Feb 13, 2012

who, me?


And if the conversation follows an unusual track or another person comes in there are any number of subtleties to show how or who is speaking at any given time. Most tropers just don't want to put in that much effort to read and study dialogue, though. Gotta think up some great lines for your Deadpan Snarker!

Kuroyama
Sep 15, 2012
no fucking Anime in GiP

Alpacalips Now posted:

I just read that chapter of Washout Tom's epic and, oh man, my TEFL students write more natural, meaningful dialogue than that. And the action scenes read like blow-by-blows of action figure battles. At least anime has visual flair, bright colors and dramatic angles to make fights look interesting, but it's like he's not trying to translate any of that to writing. It reminds me of a thread on Creative Convention where someone is writing an intentionally bad Metroid military sci-fi fanfic, except the fanfic is actually better.

Isn't that part of tropers' misconception that you can jam whatever tropes you want into a story and it'll be a good story? They don't understand various media have certain advantages/disadvantages for conveying the story, and so they include every single little detail of scenes in a written story because that's what their anime do, but they forget that anime is a visual medium and literature (and I use that term loosely when applied to tropers) isn't.

GIANT OUIJA BOARD
Aug 22, 2011

177 Years of Your Dick
All
Night
Non
Stop

Quinctia posted:

Eh, I think it's a nuance that a lot of bad writers don't understand. In a well written conversation, you don't actually need to attribute dialogue every other line. He said/she said/he said/she said, etc. The answer isn't to replace the attribution with said/queried/quipped/declared, it's to write more smoothly so you're not ending every sentance of dialogue with "pronoun-speaking verb."

Yes, but some of us (self included, circa 2000) were taught in school to never ever under any circumstances use the word "said" more than maybe once a page but even then you still shouldn't really do it and here's a list of synonyms to use instead.

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

GIANT OUIJA BOARD posted:

Yes, but some of us (self included, circa 2000) were taught in school to never ever under any circumstances use the word "said" more than maybe once a page but even then you still shouldn't really do it and here's a list of synonyms to use instead.

Was ejaculated on that list? Because I love that synonym whenever I read it in a Sherlock Holmes story or something Wells wrote. Also I am mentally 12.

HapiMerchant
Apr 22, 2014

ArchangeI posted:

Was ejaculated on that list? Because I love that synonym whenever I read it in a Sherlock Holmes story or something Wells wrote. Also I am mentally 12.

"We can't use magic?" Ron ejaculated loudly.

GIANT OUIJA BOARD
Aug 22, 2011

177 Years of Your Dick
All
Night
Non
Stop

ArchangeI posted:

Was ejaculated on that list? Because I love that synonym whenever I read it in a Sherlock Holmes story or something Wells wrote. Also I am mentally 12.

I believe it was, yes.

Penny Paper
Dec 31, 2012

Kuroyama posted:

Isn't that part of tropers' misconception that you can jam whatever tropes you want into a story and it'll be a good story?


Yes, but most, if not all, will argue that "It's my style," which doesn't mean squat unless you learn the basics -- in this case, the basics of grammar, sentence structure, word choice, storytelling, characterization, character motivation, voice/point of view -- you know, all the things that the professionals and budding writers who aren't tropers or have never heard of TVTropes learn from their teachers in school or a very good writing mentor.

The "It's my style" defense is all explained here in this thread from Project A.F.T.E.R: http://www.projectafterforums.com/index.php?showtopic=4568

quote:

Was ejaculated on that list?

I'm not sure, but something tells me that it might have been left out because it doesn't mean "to exclaim" anymore (unless you want to work a double entendre in your tale and have your male protagonist shout something as he's reaching orgasm).

quote:

Because I love that synonym whenever I read it in a Sherlock Holmes story or something Wells wrote. Also I am mentally 12.

So am I.

Isizzlehorn
Feb 25, 2010

:lesnick::lesnick::lesnick::lesnick::lesnick::lesnick:

Samurai Quack posted:

Not just tropes, but quotes. Pages and pages of badass action lines and catchphrases taken from the pages of books THAT DO NOT EXIST.

This is what pretty well broke me with regards to how spergy it got.

They limit themselves to only 16 volumes of canon non-existant fanfiction, and that's not enough for them. Somewhere around halfway the Expanded Universe headings pop up everywhere, with lists upon lists of tropes, quotes and additional characters and tropes/quotes for them as well.

It's not enough to create tropes for a non-existant pony fanfiction, these insane fucks then create non-canon non-existant fanfiction for their canon non-existant fanfiction.



The only difference between that pony poo poo and lunatic writings on walls of a mental institution is the pony authors haven't been diagnosed as clinically insane. Yet.

Ron Paul Atreides
Apr 19, 2012

Uyghurs situation in Xinjiang? Just a police action, do not fret. Not ongoing genocide like in EVIL Canada.

I am definitely not a tankie.

Xander77 posted:

My understanding is that "said" went out of fashion a few decades back, and every writing authority suggested using synonyms. It's back in fashion at the moment, and presumably tropers are just trying to anticipate the trend when it becomes unfashionable once more.

it's a filler word, useful for tying speaker to phrase but totally worthless otherwise. In most cases you can safely discard it as a good writer can make it obvious without incessant repetition who is speaking but in scenes with more than a handful of characters you might need to fall back on it to clarify. Even then though, it's only there as a side note to indicate whose speaking, most readers will barely register that the word is there.

The problem is tropers never learned the first part where you avoid using it as much as possible, and instead just pepper synonyms all over which is just as useless as using 'said" would've been. Unless there is a specific meaning to be shown by the way a character spoke, said works fine, and as stated, probably shouldn't be there if it can be avoided.

Quinctia posted:

Eh, I think it's a nuance that a lot of bad writers don't understand. In a well written conversation, you don't actually need to attribute dialogue every other line. He said/she said/he said/she said, etc. The answer isn't to replace the attribution with said/queried/quipped/declared, it's to write more smoothly so you're not ending every sentance of dialogue with "pronoun-speaking verb."

e; fb

At least I know SA actually knows stylistic guidelines.

Ron Paul Atreides fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Jun 15, 2014

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

"Said" becomes invisible like "the" unless you hosed up in a way that can't be fixed by using synonyms.

Breetai
Nov 6, 2005

🥄Mah spoon is too big!🍌

purple_sammich posted:

Hey thread, was there a troper who seriously overused the word quip in a story of theirs? Like almost every time someone spoke it was like "he quipped", "she quipped playfully", etc?

I'm reminded of Brian-San quipping about how his MTG decks were obviously the best to his computer waifu.

Cornwind Evil
Dec 14, 2004


The undisputed world champion of wrestling effortposting

Isizzlehorn posted:

The only difference between that pony poo poo and lunatic writings on walls of a mental institution is the pony authors haven't been diagnosed as clinically insane. Yet.

Actually, it's (probably) a lot more simple then that. I read somewhere that thinking about doing something pleasurable, like say, writing a novel, releases almost the same amount of dopamine as actually doing it (not sure on the percentage). This is just a bunch of spergs taking the lazy way to the pleasure buttons in their brains, in the end, and considering how little they have in their lives, can you blame them for writing millions of words over it? That cheap pleasure is all they have. Hell, one could argue that in a few ways, we're doing the exact same thing in this thread.

Tunicate
May 15, 2012

Zemyla posted:

My highschool English teacher told me to avoid overusing "said" back in the 90s. It was a thing for a while.

My elementary school teachers made a huge deal about how 'said is dead'.

Kugyou no Tenshi
Nov 8, 2005

We can't keep the crowd waiting, can we?

Kuroyama posted:

Isn't that part of tropers' misconception that you can jam whatever tropes you want into a story and it'll be a good story?

Of course, because Tropes Are Tools, and thus more tropes = more tools = better than. I (ostensibly) write fiction as a hobby, and there are days I wish I'd never heard of tropes or even the concept of the Mary Sue, because that poo poo gets into my head and makes me question literally every decision I have regarding my characters and plot. I just want to write, goddammit.

Moatman
Mar 21, 2014

Because the goof is all mine.

Isizzlehorn posted:

The only difference between that pony poo poo and lunatic writings on walls of a mental institution is the pony authors haven't been diagnosed as clinically insane. Yet.
There's another difference.

People clean the walls in a mental hospital.

Cornwind Evil
Dec 14, 2004


The undisputed world champion of wrestling effortposting

Kugyou no Tenshi posted:

Of course, because Tropes Are Tools, and thus more tropes = more tools = better than. I (ostensibly) write fiction as a hobby, and there are days I wish I'd never heard of tropes or even the concept of the Mary Sue, because that poo poo gets into my head and makes me question literally every decision I have regarding my characters and plot. I just want to write, goddammit.

Never stop doing this and you should be fine. Find others to do it honestly for you and you'll be better off. Be prepared to possibly find you have more of an ego over it than you thought, though.

kaleidolia
Apr 25, 2012

Cornwind Evil posted:

Actually, it's (probably) a lot more simple then that. I read somewhere that thinking about doing something pleasurable, like say, writing a novel, releases almost the same amount of dopamine as actually doing it (not sure on the percentage). This is just a bunch of spergs taking the lazy way to the pleasure buttons in their brains, in the end, and considering how little they have in their lives, can you blame them for writing millions of words over it? That cheap pleasure is all they have. Hell, one could argue that in a few ways, we're doing the exact same thing in this thread.

I can't blame them, but I can laugh at people who think the site has any value.

They won't get rid of examples that blatantly don't exist, or creepy details about real people, so what else is there that just hasn't been removed? How is that useful to anyone but the people who obsessively add examples? The mods do nothing about bronies posting that "fluffy" stuff on a "family friendly" site, even though that's one of the few rules they've enforced.

This thread is at least honest about making goons happy by mocking a website.


Moatman posted:

There's another difference.

People clean the walls in a mental hospital.

Basically this.

Bear Sleuth
Jul 17, 2011

Isizzlehorn posted:

They limit themselves to only 16 volumes of canon non-existant fanfiction, and that's not enough for them. Somewhere around halfway the Expanded Universe headings pop up everywhere, with lists upon lists of tropes, quotes and additional characters and tropes/quotes for them as well.

It's not enough to create tropes for a non-existant pony fanfiction, these insane fucks then create non-canon non-existant fanfiction for their canon non-existant fanfiction.

That's part of what I find fascinating about this mess. They've invented not only all these canon books and non-canon entries, but also spin-offs, comics, video-game tie-ins, grim-dark subseries, movies, etc. etc. It's a portrait of a media empire gone insane. They've created this whole... history isn't the right word, they haven't written a timeline or anything. It's like world building in that it's all empty details, but for a media property of all things.

I'm reminded of how little kids will play out traumatic experiences in order to process what's happened to them. This strikes me as similar except they're playing out being in a fandom. All the things they're documenting here are things fandoms can't get over: canon-issues, spin-offs, quality of movie adaptations, obsessing that their favorite thing be seen as cool and deep and important. Notice too how the original author of the books is magnanimous in letting others play with her creation. If that isn't geeky fan wish-fulfillment I don't know what is.

Anyway, within that mass of words they've listed quotes from all the books and such! Much like "Best Line From Your Own Writing" here's what Tropers imagine the most quotable parts of these stories are.

quote:

Darrin: I take it you have a map of this island?
Daring: Yeah. (gets it out of her saddlebag.) Took me three hours in the campus library to track this down.
Darrin: That long? Couldn't you have got one of the pages to help?
Daring: The only one on call was Herpy (note: Later admitted to be a misprint of "Harpy"), and with his track record it would have taken us five hours.

Ho-ho! Sick burn there, Daring. Surely out of the whole book this is the part everyone remembers. Those "With his track record it would have taken us five hours!" shirts just fly off the shelves.

quote:

Herpy: Well, your friend [Bravado] learned a valuable lesson today.
Daring: What was that?
Herpy: You do not want to be kicked in the face by a professional adventurer.

Just like "Lines From Your Own Writing" these things are terribly constructed "witty jokes." They're supposed to come across as badass one-liners but out of context (haha) they read like desperate attempts to seem smart and cool.

quote:

Darrin: I understand why you wouldn't want to have to raise us. You had dreams. You had your own life to live. Fair enough. But did you have to take it out on us? It wasn't like we were thrilled with the situation, either! Do you think having to be cared for by a moody, cocky spoiled brat because our father ran out on us was our first choice? Do you?! Because it wasn't! And you were so horrible about accepting it, too! You just complained and treated us like we wanted you to be held back! We didn't want that! We're siblings, Derring! Siblings are supposed to want the best for one another! And they are not supposed to just skip out on their younger siblings the second one of them turns eighteen! Would it have killed you to say goodbye?! Leave a note?! Call us every now and then?! And when we finally run into you — after seven years, I may add! — you don't even bother to say, "Hey, how's your life been since I ditched you with no explanation?" Derring, you're my older sister, and I love you, but I have one thing to say to you: GROW UP.

Or a passionate come to terms which is meant to be like the emotional climax I guess, but without, you know, a plot or characters or a foundation or build-up or ANYTHING AT ALL it's just empty empty words. This is the void right here folks.

quote:

Ahuizotl: Confound these wretched plants! For every one I fling away, a dozen more vex me!

Why is this a quotable line? Why would anyone every quote this at all?

quote:

Short Stuff: (after crashing into the Jade Dragon) WOW! Holy smoke! Crash landing!
Daring Do: (grabs Starlight and jumps onto the wagon attached to scooter) Short Stuff get us outta here!
Short Stuff: Okie dokie Doctor Do! Hold onto your potato!
Miss Starlight: (mortified) Is that... a filly... on a scooter?!

There are hundreds of these. I barely scratched the surface. And they're all the same: empty, boring, wastes of words. Not one of theme is clever or interesting or necessary. How could they be? They're shadows of an imaginary figment. They've got to be high on the list of the most useless things every conceived.

Tardigrade
Jul 13, 2012

Half arthropod, half marshmallow, all cute.

Bear Sleuth posted:

Why is this a quotable line? Why would anyone every quote this at all?

Presumably they figured that "Out, damned spot" is quotable, and ran with it.

Lottery of Babylon
Apr 25, 2012

STRAIGHT TROPIN'

quote:

Inti: TAKE ONE LAST LOOK AT YOUR PRECIOUS EQUESTRIAN MOON, 'CAUSE IT CANNOT HELP YOU NOW!!!
(Nightmare Moon manifests, steals her power back, lays the smack down on Inti, and trots over his defeated body)
Nightmare Moon: So, you wish for the power of the evening's heaven, my reptilian friend? The power of the stars? My power? (whispers the next line in his ear) Then you shall have it.
(Nightmare Moon wraps Inti in star-made chains and casts him into the sky, turning him into the Dragon constellation)
— Daring Do and the Legacy of Nightmare Moon

These don't look anything like memorable quotes from books. They look like transcripts of scenes from anime.

Zulily Zoetrope
Jun 1, 2011

Muldoon
Isn't it a reference* to some Squirrel Girl comic? I've seen a panel of Dr Doom or someone getting mobbed by squirrels and saying that exact line, but with rodents.

"Reference" here meaning "repetition of a funny thing without any of the context that makes it funny" which, if I understand troper humor, is peak hilarity and worthy of inclusion on any list of achievements.

tacodaemon
Nov 27, 2006



quote:

Darrin: I take it you have a map of this island?
Daring: Yeah. (gets it out of her saddlebag.) Took me three hours in the campus library to track this down.
Darrin: That long? Couldn't you have got one of the pages to help?
Daring: The only one on call was Herpy (note: Later admitted to be a misprint of "Harpy"), and with his track record it would have taken us five hours.

Imaginary misprints in imaginary quotes from imaginary books in an imaginary oversaturated media franchise.

Testekill
Nov 1, 2012

I demand to be taken seriously

:aronrex:

Tardigrade posted:

Presumably they figured that "Out, damned spot" is quotable, and ran with it.

They know that line is quotable. Thing is, they probably don't know or understand why it's quotable.

Calaveron
Aug 7, 2006
:negative:

Tardigrade posted:

Presumably they figured that "Out, damned spot" is quotable, and ran with it.

Penny Paper
Dec 31, 2012

Kajeesus posted:

"Reference" here meaning "repetition of a funny thing without any of the context that makes it funny" which, if I understand troper humor, is peak hilarity and worthy of inclusion on any list of achievements.

According to this article, you are right

purple_sammich
Feb 3, 2010

Breetai posted:

I'm reminded of Brian-San quipping about how his MTG decks were obviously the best to his computer waifu.

Holy poo poo, thank you, that's who it was! Was he a troper or just a random sad nerd? It's been a long time since I read that thread.

Byde
Apr 15, 2013

by Lowtax

Kajeesus posted:

"Reference" here meaning "repetition of a funny thing without any of the context that makes it funny" which, if I understand troper humor, is peak hilarity and worthy of inclusion on any list of achievements.

It also explains the popularity of stuff like Family Guy.

Tvtropes is the logical conclusion of internet fanbases.

Penny Paper
Dec 31, 2012

Byde posted:

It also explains the popularity of stuff like Family Guy.

And Robot Chicken, though I think that fad for pointless 1980s childhood nostalgia also had a hand in it.

quote:

Tvtropes is the logical conclusion of internet fanbases.

Meaning what exactly?

Alpacalips Now
Oct 4, 2013

Kugyou no Tenshi posted:

Of course, because Tropes Are Tools, and thus more tropes = more tools = better than. I (ostensibly) write fiction as a hobby, and there are days I wish I'd never heard of tropes or even the concept of the Mary Sue, because that poo poo gets into my head and makes me question literally every decision I have regarding my characters and plot. I just want to write, goddammit.

If tropes are tools, then troper fiction is a bunch of confusingly labeled and sometimes useless tools arranged to resemble a house.

I like to write too, and troper stuff amuses me because the way they appreciate and create media seems so unnatural. It's like, instead of building on how people naturally enjoy narratives, they just decided it was good enough to name every possible thing that happens or could happen in a story. Since I learned about TVTropes, I've been making a greater effort not to see characters or situations as simply "stock", and figuring out why they do or do not work.

Annointed
Mar 2, 2013

Penny Paper posted:

Meaning what exactly?

An all inclusive hugbox where everyone likes each other based on something they watched. TvTropes takes it further by making so you don't even have to actually watch the things they're talking about, all with labels scattered around to make things seem busy and thoughtful.

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Level Slide
Jan 4, 2011

Zemyla posted:

My highschool English teacher told me to avoid overusing "said" back in the 90s. It was a thing for a while.

Tvtropes strikes me as the type of place that would be all over that "only 90's kids" crap.

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